Flint, Michigan lead poisoning in water supply (1 Viewer)

[Apple Jack]

Crimes Against Humanity???????

Yes they are certain acts which are committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population or an identifiable part of a population. The first prosecution for crimes against humanity took place at the Nuremberg Trials.

OK, whatever. Continue on!

Glad children suffering from lead poisoning at the direction of the Governor is amusing to you.

You jump to way too many conclusions and make too many accusations. What you say and what the facts show are two different things. It was a mistake and seems to have had some terrible consequences, but it was not intentional. If the governor had any idea how bad it really was, he would have done things differently. You make it sound like he ordered the poisoning. It was a sequence of unforseen events. He probably should have responded better and that's what he is guilty of. Hindsight though is easy.

 

[Eminence]

This is the town where I got my Associates Degree! Baker College!

 

[Apple Jack]

Between this and the bundymx thread, this year is off to fantastic start.

 

[Van Dyman]

Crimes Against Humanity???????

Yes they are certain acts which are committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population or an identifiable part of a population. The first prosecution for crimes against humanity took place at the Nuremberg Trials.

OK, whatever. Continue on!

Glad children suffering from lead poisoning at the direction of the Governor is amusing to you.

You jump to way too many conclusions and make too many accusations. What you say and what the facts show are two different things. It was a mistake and seems to have had some terrible consequences, but it was not intentional. If the governor had any idea how bad it really was, he would have done things differently. You make it sound like he ordered the poisoning. It was a sequence of unforseen events. He probably should have responded better and that's what he is guilty of. Hindsight though is easy.

Should have responded better is a pretty big understatement. He could have declared a state of emergency last year. This is going to get ugly.

 

[dirtyjay]

Crimes Against Humanity???????

Yes they are certain acts which are committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population or an identifiable part of a population. The first prosecution for crimes against humanity took place at the Nuremberg Trials.

OK, whatever. Continue on!

Glad children suffering from lead poisoning at the direction of the Governor is amusing to you.

You jump to way too many conclusions and make too many accusations. What you say and what the facts show are two different things. It was a mistake and seems to have had some terrible consequences, but it was not intentional. If the governor had any idea how bad it really was, he would have done things differently. You make it sound like he ordered the poisoning. It was a sequence of unforseen events. He probably should have responded better and that's what he is guilty of. Hindsight though is easy.

Should have responded better is a pretty big understatement. He could have declared a state of emergency last year but it would have looked bad during his re-election campaign so, instead, he hired a PR firm to try to spin and deflect this story. Now they're saying he can't be prosecuted because it happened in his previous term? This is going to get ugly.

VERY! He will have no choice but to at least resign. This has not even started yet.

 

[Van Dyman]

VERY! He will have no choice but to at least resign. This has not even started yet.

Oops! My timeline is screwed up here. He was re-elected in 2014. I fixed my post, the one you quoted.

 

[BobbyLayne]

Between this and the bundymx thread, this year is off to fantastic start.

 

[Dan Lambskin]

I cannot for the life of me figure out why the city water department, after seeing the sampling results of the raw water, did not adjust it to be less corrosive. Mindboggling (from someone with 30 years in the water business). The NBC article is correct; buffering the water could be done inexpensively. Were they that cash strapped where the cost of water treatment was disregarded? In addition, the costs of the raw water on the infrastructure's lifespan looks like it was never taken into account. Corrosive water = shorter pipe lifespan = more frequent replacement. My guess is that the City does not have any sort of asset management plan.

So shortsighted...

I don't think "the city" of Flint decided to switch water sources. Michigan has some weird law where the state can temporarily take over local municipal governments if the town has financial problems. Something like that. Anyway, Governor Snyder appointed to Flint a city manager whose power overrides everything (even elected officials like mayor, city council, etc.). That guy did this, iirc.

If that is what happened then Snyder is in huge trouble.

That exactly is what happened. It was the city manager appointed by Snyder who made the decision. Rachel Maddow has been on the top of this story for a couple weeks.

While Maddow and others have brought it to light the past few weeks, I have been driving from Chicago to Mt. Morris (Town outside Flint) for months trying to repair the mess this water has caused to the pipes of my mother in laws house. Insurance has covered some because of the now widespread issue, but seeing it first hand.

Imagine using the water in your home and it came out looking like pee, it seems easy to say just go buy bottled water. But after 3 days you start to go broke with the amount of water one would need to survive in a family of 4.

Speaking of dirty did you stop at the Velvet Touch?

 

[BroncoFreak_2K3]

I cannot for the life of me figure out why the city water department, after seeing the sampling results of the raw water, did not adjust it to be less corrosive. Mindboggling (from someone with 30 years in the water business). The NBC article is correct; buffering the water could be done inexpensively. Were they that cash strapped where the cost of water treatment was disregarded? In addition, the costs of the raw water on the infrastructure's lifespan looks like it was never taken into account. Corrosive water = shorter pipe lifespan = more frequent replacement. My guess is that the City does not have any sort of asset management plan.

So shortsighted...

I don't think "the city" of Flint decided to switch water sources. Michigan has some weird law where the state can temporarily take over local municipal governments if the town has financial problems. Something like that. Anyway, Governor Snyder appointed to Flint a city manager whose power overrides everything (even elected officials like mayor, city council, etc.). That guy did this, iirc.

If that is what happened then Snyder is in huge trouble.

That exactly is what happened. It was the city manager appointed by Snyder who made the decision. Rachel Maddow has been on the top of this story for a couple weeks.

While Maddow and others have brought it to light the past few weeks, I have been driving from Chicago to Mt. Morris (Town outside Flint) for months trying to repair the mess this water has caused to the pipes of my mother in laws house. Insurance has covered some because of the now widespread issue, but seeing it first hand.

Imagine using the water in your home and it came out looking like pee, it seems easy to say just go buy bottled water. But after 3 days you start to go broke with the amount of water one would need to survive in a family of 4.

Speaking of dirty did you stop at the Velvet Touch?

touche

 

[Ilov80s]

I have a facility in Flint, MI. Been going there for almost 20 years. That part of the country has been a disaster since I have been going there. The recession of 2008 was the final nail. Flint is dead. Never coming back.

Detroit and Flint are beyond broke, poorly managed and full of corruption. The MI DEQ is very understaffed and poorly managed. Throw in the corruption at the state and you get Detroit and Flint. It is a shame how citizens of that area are being treated.

Detroit is booming right now. It's nothing like Flint at all.

 

[Homer J Simpson]

I'd love to hear jon's reaction if Obama had made that decision.

It wouldn't be a news story had he.

 

[Joe Summer]

Pronunciation and syntax are tricky things. Is Michigan leading the world in poison water supply?

 

[Dan Lambskin]

Also where's Erin Brockovich when you need her?

 

[SIDA!]

This is an example of our nation's decaying infrastructure. Roads, dams, utilities, and yes our water supply. You're naive if you think the condition of the water pipes in Flint is an isolated case.

Just imagine the outcry if a terrorist contaminated our drinking water.

That was my initial thought upon reading this story: how many other cities' water pipes out there are old and corroded?

In this particular case, after reading some of the background literature, not only is the governor culpable in a political sense I would suspect you will see massive lawsuits brought against the state. In this case I feel like jail time is not a bad thing for those involved in making these decisions. As someone that is a water resources engineer there is no way an engineer made this decision without political interference of the largest sort.

I realize you are talking specifically about this case and I do not know the facts or that much about municipal water systems. Putting all that aside and speaking in more general terms, I agree with you.

I think I speak for many people of all different walks of life and political leanings when I say that there is a growing level of absolute anger and rage toward the elitist class in this country, be it rich wall street types getting government bailouts, corrupt politicians, etc.

I think the average American is getting pretty ####### pissed off by the fact that there are two separate rules and system of justice for the elites versus the average Joe.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

I have a facility in Flint, MI. Been going there for almost 20 years. That part of the country has been a disaster since I have been going there. The recession of 2008 was the final nail. Flint is dead. Never coming back.

Detroit and Flint are beyond broke, poorly managed and full of corruption. The MI DEQ is very understaffed and poorly managed. Throw in the corruption at the state and you get Detroit and Flint. It is a shame how citizens of that area are being treated.

Detroit is booming right now. It's nothing like Flint at all.

Yeah, Detroit is not Flint. I saw a lot of the same comments about Detroit ten years ago, right in this forum. The housing crisis has slowed the rebound, but a rebound has been going on over the last 15 years or so.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Pronunciation and syntax are tricky things. Is Michigan leading the world in poison water supply?

Very well done.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Here's the Rachel Maddow piece. It's pretty damning.

I follow Detroit/Michigan news pretty closely, had no idea Snyder was this terrible. How can he get away with overturning local elections? Where are all the Constitutional Republicans? Oh yeah, they are tea bagging each other in Michigan.

This might be good enough for the jon_mx's of the world, but I find Snyder's Administration grossly incompetent on a good day.

 

[culdeus]

Jonmx never knows when he's in over his head. Should be fun.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Yeah but he got slaughtered in Genesee County in both elections, so he's essentially eliminating the competition.

 

[timschochet]

I was skeptical when I first posted this, closer to jon's side of things. I usually believe that most government screwups are exactly that, and not deliberate. I still suspect it started out that way. But based on the evidence, this was a pretty huge coverup by the governor and others. If that's true that maybe jail time really is warranted.

 

[Amused to Death]

Maddow is on now and will have more on this coming up.

 

[jon_mx]

I was skeptical when I first posted this, closer to jon's side of things. I usually believe that most government screwups are exactly that, and not deliberate. I still suspect it started out that way. But based on the evidence, this was a pretty huge coverup by the governor and others. If that's true that maybe jail time really is warranted.

I am not on a side. I just want all the facts before sending the guy to the electric chair. The reporting is mostly from Maddows. She has a point, but she also has a gross tendancy to quickly blame Republicans for everything and to project evil motivations on to them. It seemed to have started out as cost-cutting effort, turned into an unintended result, and then became gross negligence and cover up. There is still a lot to learn about why and how this came about and I am sure there is a lot of people to blame besides the governor. But obviously that is where the buck stops. He screwed up.

 

[Amused to Death]

I was skeptical when I first posted this, closer to jon's side of things. I usually believe that most government screwups are exactly that, and not deliberate. I still suspect it started out that way. But based on the evidence, this was a pretty huge coverup by the governor and others. If that's true that maybe jail time really is warranted.

I am not on a side. I just want all the facts before sending the guy to the electric chair. The reporting is mostly from Maddows. She has a point, but she also has a gross tendancy to quickly blame Republicans for everything and to project evil motivations on to them. It seemed to have started out as cost-cutting effort, turned into an unintended result, and then became gross negligence and cover up. There is still a lot to learn about why and how this came about and I am sure there is a lot of people to blame besides the governor. But obviously that is where the buck stops. He screwed up.

She didn't write the emails.

 

[jon_mx]

I was skeptical when I first posted this, closer to jon's side of things. I usually believe that most government screwups are exactly that, and not deliberate. I still suspect it started out that way. But based on the evidence, this was a pretty huge coverup by the governor and others. If that's true that maybe jail time really is warranted.

I am not on a side. I just want all the facts before sending the guy to the electric chair. The reporting is mostly from Maddows. She has a point, but she also has a gross tendancy to quickly blame Republicans for everything and to project evil motivations on to them. It seemed to have started out as cost-cutting effort, turned into an unintended result, and then became gross negligence and cover up. There is still a lot to learn about why and how this came about and I am sure there is a lot of people to blame besides the governor. But obviously that is where the buck stops. He screwed up.

She didn't write the emails.

Biased reporting is not about fabricating facts. It about what facts are presented and which facts are not and how you present them. Maddows is not one to care about reporting both sides of an issue. Perhaps the governor does not have a decent side to present, but I know Maddows would not present it even if he did.

 

[squistion]

Jonmx never knows when he's in over his head. Should be fun.

That is why they call him wrong_mx.

I knew when Tim started this thread, if anyone would come in and try to defend the actions of the governor/state it would be jon. He didn't disappoint.

 

[jon_mx]

Jonmx never knows when he's in over his head. Should be fun.

That is why they call him wrong_mx.

I knew when Tim started this thread, if anyone would come in and try to defend the actions of the governor/state it would be jon. He didn't disappoint.

Yes, I thought the crimes against humanity was over the top and it is ridiculous to think it was his intent from the beginning to poison children, but I have not defended him. I just want to see reporting and discussion without the rhetoric and spin.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

If there's another side I'd love to hear it. I don't mind Maddow but I'm not a huge fan or anything. I happened to be watching that night because of Bernie's kerfuffle with the DNC (which CNN barely covered).

I hope this piece isn't a hatchet job but I don't have enough experience with her reporting to know what to expect one way or the other. I'd certainly be disappointed if it was.

Maddow has an obsession with the "emergency manager" thing. States have the authority to do this, and there's nothing inherently anti-democratic about it. (The governor and state legislators who authorize this step are all democratically elected). She seems to be conflating bad decision-making by city leaders with the "emergency manager" system when there's no reason think that there's any connection between the two.

That said, she's 100% right that these people all report directly to the governor, so if they screw up, it's on him. Everything I've read so far is that this is a huge and possibly criminal issue for Snyder. That seems right to me, again based on what's been presented so far.

 

[squistion]

If there's another side I'd love to hear it. I don't mind Maddow but I'm not a huge fan or anything. I happened to be watching that night because of Bernie's kerfuffle with the DNC (which CNN barely covered).

I hope this piece isn't a hatchet job but I don't have enough experience with her reporting to know what to expect one way or the other. I'd certainly be disappointed if it was.

Maddow has an obsession with the "emergency manager" thing. States have the authority to do this, and there's nothing inherently anti-democratic about it. (The governor and state legislators who authorize this step are all democratically elected). She seems to be conflating bad decision-making by city leaders with the "emergency manager" system when there's no reason think that there's any connection between the two.

That said, she's 100% right that these people all report directly to the governor, so if they screw up, it's on him. Everything I've read so far is that this is a huge and possibly criminal issue for Snyder. That seems right to me, again based on what's been presented so far.

Perhaps but there was special legislation enacted for this authority according to the Maddow segment I watched. Sorry I don't have the link, but I doubt she just made that part up.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

If there's another side I'd love to hear it. I don't mind Maddow but I'm not a huge fan or anything. I happened to be watching that night because of Bernie's kerfuffle with the DNC (which CNN barely covered).

I hope this piece isn't a hatchet job but I don't have enough experience with her reporting to know what to expect one way or the other. I'd certainly be disappointed if it was.

Maddow has an obsession with the "emergency manager" thing. States have the authority to do this, and there's nothing inherently anti-democratic about it. (The governor and state legislators who authorize this step are all democratically elected). She seems to be conflating bad decision-making by city leaders with the "emergency manager" system when there's no reason think that there's any connection between the two.

That said, she's 100% right that these people all report directly to the governor, so if they screw up, it's on him. Everything I've read so far is that this is a huge and possibly criminal issue for Snyder. That seems right to me, again based on what's been presented so far.

Perhaps but there was special legislation enacted for this authority according to the Maddow segment I watched. Sorry I don't have the link, but I doubt she just made that part up.

My understanding is that states have very broad authority to delegate or not delegate stuff to cities and counties. I don't doubt that it might require state-level legislation to change the current degree of delegation.

Edit: As a general principle, I'd rather see more stuff handled locally. I'm just saying that there's nothing anti-democratic about any of this. I see no reason to think that voters in MI don't approve of micromanaging cities that can't get their act together (by the voters' standards).

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

Maybe the federal government should send in a state manager to run Michigan.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

If there's another side I'd love to hear it. I don't mind Maddow but I'm not a huge fan or anything. I happened to be watching that night because of Bernie's kerfuffle with the DNC (which CNN barely covered).

I hope this piece isn't a hatchet job but I don't have enough experience with her reporting to know what to expect one way or the other. I'd certainly be disappointed if it was.

Maddow has an obsession with the "emergency manager" thing. States have the authority to do this, and there's nothing inherently anti-democratic about it. (The governor and state legislators who authorize this step are all democratically elected). She seems to be conflating bad decision-making by city leaders with the "emergency manager" system when there's no reason think that there's any connection between the two.

That said, she's 100% right that these people all report directly to the governor, so if they screw up, it's on him. Everything I've read so far is that this is a huge and possibly criminal issue for Snyder. That seems right to me, again based on what's been presented so far.

It's not just Maddow bringing this stuff up though

And here’s one fact of life in Michigan: emergency management is normally only imposed on majority-black cities. From 2013 to 2014, 52% of the African American residents in the state lived under emergency management, compared to only 2% of white residents. And yet the repeal vote against the previous version of the act was a demographic landslide: 75 out of 83 counties voted to nix the legislation, including all of Michigan’s northern, overwhelmingly white, rural counties. “I think people just internalized that P.A. 4 was undemocratic,” Bellant says.

There's a lot more to it then the emergency manager stuff, Snyder has essentially re-written laws to serve his budget reduction campaign at the peril of the citizens of Michigan. It's basically a smash and burn campaign by Snyder, and of course the brunt of the cuts have been directed at the poorest of Michigan communities. The Flint water scandal was a calculated by Snyder himself, he's basically left a trail of tears since he took office.

 

[squistion]

If there's another side I'd love to hear it. I don't mind Maddow but I'm not a huge fan or anything. I happened to be watching that night because of Bernie's kerfuffle with the DNC (which CNN barely covered).

I hope this piece isn't a hatchet job but I don't have enough experience with her reporting to know what to expect one way or the other. I'd certainly be disappointed if it was.

Maddow has an obsession with the "emergency manager" thing. States have the authority to do this, and there's nothing inherently anti-democratic about it. (The governor and state legislators who authorize this step are all democratically elected). She seems to be conflating bad decision-making by city leaders with the "emergency manager" system when there's no reason think that there's any connection between the two.

That said, she's 100% right that these people all report directly to the governor, so if they screw up, it's on him. Everything I've read so far is that this is a huge and possibly criminal issue for Snyder. That seems right to me, again based on what's been presented so far.

Perhaps but there was special legislation enacted for this authority according to the Maddow segment I watched. Sorry I don't have the link, but I doubt she just made that part up.

My understanding is that states have very broad authority to delegate or not delegate stuff to cities and counties. I don't doubt that it might require state-level legislation to change the current degree of delegation.

Edit: As a general principle, I'd rather see more stuff handled locally. I'm just saying that there's nothing anti-democratic about any of this. I see no reason to think that voters in MI don't approve of micromanaging cities that can't get their act together.

Did you see the Maddow segment on this? Because it went far beyond that Flint couldn't just get their act together regarding where they get their drinking water from.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

If there's another side I'd love to hear it. I don't mind Maddow but I'm not a huge fan or anything. I happened to be watching that night because of Bernie's kerfuffle with the DNC (which CNN barely covered).

I hope this piece isn't a hatchet job but I don't have enough experience with her reporting to know what to expect one way or the other. I'd certainly be disappointed if it was.

Maddow has an obsession with the "emergency manager" thing. States have the authority to do this, and there's nothing inherently anti-democratic about it. (The governor and state legislators who authorize this step are all democratically elected). She seems to be conflating bad decision-making by city leaders with the "emergency manager" system when there's no reason think that there's any connection between the two.

That said, she's 100% right that these people all report directly to the governor, so if they screw up, it's on him. Everything I've read so far is that this is a huge and possibly criminal issue for Snyder. That seems right to me, again based on what's been presented so far.

It's not just Maddow bringing this stuff up though

And here’s one fact of life in Michigan: emergency management is normally only imposed on majority-black cities. From 2013 to 2014, 52% of the African American residents in the state lived under emergency management, compared to only 2% of white residents. And yet the repeal vote against the previous version of the act was a demographic landslide: 75 out of 83 counties voted to nix the legislation, including all of Michigan’s northern, overwhelmingly white, rural counties. “I think people just internalized that P.A. 4 was undemocratic,” Bellant says.

There's a lot more to it then the emergency manager stuff, Snyder has essentially re-written laws to serve his budget reduction campaign at the peril of the citizens of Michigan. It's basically a smash and burn campaign by Snyder, and of course the brunt of the cuts have been directed at the poorest of Michigan communities. The Flint water scandal was a calculated by Snyder himself, he's basically left a trail of tears since he took office.

By all means, blame the governor. These people report to him directly. I have no argument with you here.

The black-white thing is quite likely an urban-rural thing though. I only know Michigan demographics by reputation, but I'm guessing that the cities in financial distress are majority-black. Because most urban cities are majority-black whereas outlying areas are majority-white.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Did you see the Maddow segment on this? Because it went far beyond that Flint couldn't just get their act together regarding where they get their drinking water from.

Yes, I did. I agree with Maddow that Snyder deserves a huge amount of responsibility for this, some of which might be criminal. I'm tentative on that last point until a few more facts come out, but yes this all looks horrible for this governor.

I'm just saying that this has little to do with the "emergency manager" method of governance. She's reaching on this one.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Maybe the federal government should send in a state manager to run Michigan.

Michigan has had a sting of terrible governors going back decades. Part of it has to do with the decline in manufacturing, part of it has to do with Michigan not selling itself as the amazing place that it is, and part of it is just bad luck. I thought it was fine for the state to try a Republican governor, maybe he would straighten some of the issues out, and in fact he's made some progress in making the state more business friendly.

As a part time resident of Michigan I do not like Snyder because of his deregulation of drilling and the subsequent fracking boom. The Great Lakes contain more than a fifth the world's total fresh water, let's not mortgage the next thousand years for the next 15. TIA.

 

[BroncoFreak_2K3]

Did you see the Maddow segment on this? Because it went far beyond that Flint couldn't just get their act together regarding where they get their drinking water from.

Yes, I did. I agree with Maddow that Snyder deserves a huge amount of responsibility for this, some of which might be criminal. I'm tentative on that last point until a few more facts come out, but yes this all looks horrible for this governor.

I'm just saying that this has little to do with the "emergency manager" method of governance. She's reaching on this one.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

If there's another side I'd love to hear it. I don't mind Maddow but I'm not a huge fan or anything. I happened to be watching that night because of Bernie's kerfuffle with the DNC (which CNN barely covered).

I hope this piece isn't a hatchet job but I don't have enough experience with her reporting to know what to expect one way or the other. I'd certainly be disappointed if it was.

Maddow has an obsession with the "emergency manager" thing. States have the authority to do this, and there's nothing inherently anti-democratic about it. (The governor and state legislators who authorize this step are all democratically elected). She seems to be conflating bad decision-making by city leaders with the "emergency manager" system when there's no reason think that there's any connection between the two.

That said, she's 100% right that these people all report directly to the governor, so if they screw up, it's on him. Everything I've read so far is that this is a huge and possibly criminal issue for Snyder. That seems right to me, again based on what's been presented so far.

It's not just Maddow bringing this stuff up though

And here’s one fact of life in Michigan: emergency management is normally only imposed on majority-black cities. From 2013 to 2014, 52% of the African American residents in the state lived under emergency management, compared to only 2% of white residents. And yet the repeal vote against the previous version of the act was a demographic landslide: 75 out of 83 counties voted to nix the legislation, including all of Michigan’s northern, overwhelmingly white, rural counties. “I think people just internalized that P.A. 4 was undemocratic,” Bellant says.

There's a lot more to it then the emergency manager stuff, Snyder has essentially re-written laws to serve his budget reduction campaign at the peril of the citizens of Michigan. It's basically a smash and burn campaign by Snyder, and of course the brunt of the cuts have been directed at the poorest of Michigan communities. The Flint water scandal was a calculated by Snyder himself, he's basically left a trail of tears since he took office.

By all means, blame the governor. These people report to him directly. I have no argument with you here.

The black-white thing is quite likely an urban-rural thing though. I only know Michigan demographics by reputation, but I'm guessing that the cities in financial distress are majority-black. Because most urban cities are majority-black whereas outlying areas are majority-white.

Well I guess but Michigan's 2nd biggest city is 70 percent white and metro Detroit is about the same. Big Rapids is among the poorest cities in Michigan, not under emergency management, and 84% white. There are other examples of course but I digress, just thought it was an interesting fact.

 

[swirvenirvin]

The Governor of that state should be charged with crimes against humanity. This is such an incredible story.

It all starts with the Financial Emergency Management law that he instituted in his first term of 2011 that allows him to void any election and their results and appoint a city manager. Just another conservative view of minimizing Government and that has now backfired.

Now emails are leaking that he knew about this many many months ago. People can get arrested for having weed in their pocket, but this man can put lead in water and lie to people about it and still Govern a state.

This is a buffoon of a Governor and if he is not arrested in due time, I will be shocked. The Federal investigation that will no doubt start soon should cripple this man and his life for many years just as he did to innocent children of Flint.

There is no hiding this and his lawyers have already told him to stay quiet. When reporters are asking you "How much did you know and when did you know it" is not a good thing for any politician.

prepared to be shocked

 

[dirtyjay]

Did you see the Maddow segment on this? Because it went far beyond that Flint couldn't just get their act together regarding where they get their drinking water from.

Yes, I did. I agree with Maddow that Snyder deserves a huge amount of responsibility for this, some of which might be criminal. I'm tentative on that last point until a few more facts come out, but yes this all looks horrible for this governor.

I'm just saying that this has little to do with the "emergency manager" method of governance. She's reaching on this one.

This has every thing to do with the Emergency Mgr method.

Michigan is the only state with the Financial Emergency Manager Law. The Governor put in an unqualified person who the city did not elect to control every day decisions for the people who did not vote for him.

But that method has little to do with this situation? When if the mayor had any say about it, this water issue would have never happened.

Its not hard to follow along with all the facts of this case, for the simple follow watch the Rachel Maddow issue.

To say this isnt an Emergency Manager issue is a blatant attempt to disregard the facts.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Yeah I don't think Maddow is too off course with the Emergency Manager shtick. Snyder uses it to control municipalities and have things done his way without the say of the locals. If the federal government went to Benton Harbor, MI and changed the way the city manages it's tax collection, utilities, school system, and code there would be an uproar from the cliven_mx crowd. Snyder is essentially doing this under the cover of darkness, changing laws and skirting democracy. Again, I ask where are all the Tea Party #######s, Libertarians, and the Constitutional followers when it's good for them guys when you need them?

All the far righties are sitting this one out, because there is no defense for what Snyder is doing.

 

[trogg78]

I could watch another Michael Moore documentary about Flint.

 

[jon_mx]

Yeah I don't think Maddow is too off course with the Emergency Manager shtick. Snyder uses it to control municipalities and have things done his way without the say of the locals. If the federal government went to Benton Harbor, MI and changed the way the city manages it's tax collection, utilities, school system, and code there would be an uproar from the cliven_mx crowd. Snyder is essentially doing this under the cover of darkness, changing laws and skirting democracy. Again, I ask where are all the Tea Party #######s, Libertarians, and the Constitutional followers when it's good for them guys when you need them?

All the far righties are sitting this one out, because there is no defense for what Snyder is doing.

The constitution addresses limits and authority of the federal government. Specifically, the 9th and 10th, but it does not address power between the states and local. Don't see how this is a Constitutional issue, unless you somehow apply the equal protection clause.

 

[msommer]

Jonmx never knows when he's in over his head. Should be fun.

Hey, a least this time it is in the rivers

 

[Ilov80s]

For the last year, Flint residents have been paying on average $140/month for poisonous water. The lawsuit for a refund is obviously coming.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Did you see the Maddow segment on this? Because it went far beyond that Flint couldn't just get their act together regarding where they get their drinking water from.

Yes, I did. I agree with Maddow that Snyder deserves a huge amount of responsibility for this, some of which might be criminal. I'm tentative on that last point until a few more facts come out, but yes this all looks horrible for this governor.

I'm just saying that this has little to do with the "emergency manager" method of governance. She's reaching on this one.

This has every thing to do with the Emergency Mgr method.

Michigan is the only state with the Financial Emergency Manager Law. The Governor put in an unqualified person who the city did not elect to control every day decisions for the people who did not vote for him.

But that method has little to do with this situation? When if the mayor had any say about it, this water issue would have never happened.

Its not hard to follow along with all the facts of this case, for the simple follow watch the Rachel Maddow issue.

To say this isnt an Emergency Manager issue is a blatant attempt to disregard the facts.

The governor did a horrible job here, and he was elected by the voters of Michigan. Therefore, the lesson I draw from this is that democracy is bad and we should less of it, not more.

Silly? Of course. But it's no less silly than the lesson Maddow is trying shoe-horn into this.

 

[jon_mx]

Jonmx never knows when he's in over his head. Should be fun.

Hey, a least this time it is in the rivers

It always is.

 

[dirtyjay]

Did you see the Maddow segment on this? Because it went far beyond that Flint couldn't just get their act together regarding where they get their drinking water from.

Yes, I did. I agree with Maddow that Snyder deserves a huge amount of responsibility for this, some of which might be criminal. I'm tentative on that last point until a few more facts come out, but yes this all looks horrible for this governor.

I'm just saying that this has little to do with the "emergency manager" method of governance. She's reaching on this one.

This has every thing to do with the Emergency Mgr method.

Michigan is the only state with the Financial Emergency Manager Law. The Governor put in an unqualified person who the city did not elect to control every day decisions for the people who did not vote for him.

But that method has little to do with this situation? When if the mayor had any say about it, this water issue would have never happened.

Its not hard to follow along with all the facts of this case, for the simple follow watch the Rachel Maddow issue.

To say this isnt an Emergency Manager issue is a blatant attempt to disregard the facts.

The governor did a horrible job here, and he was elected by the voters of Michigan. Therefore, the lesson I draw from this is that democracy is bad and we should less of it, not more.

Silly? Of course. But it's no less silly than the lesson Maddow is trying shoe-horn into this.

Lesson Maddow is teaching? With facts? Shame on her for presenting the truth.

Clearly less democracy is what failed here.

Are people following along with the story?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Lesson Maddow is teaching? With facts? Shame on her for presenting the truth.

Clearly less democracy is what failed here.

Are people following along with the story?

Emergency manager does something bad ==> we need more democracy

Democratically-elected governor does something bad ==> ?????

 

[kface]

The more I read the more I think Snyder should not only be charged but should be charged with something that leads to jail time.

 

[GroveDiesel]

Maybe it was mentioned here already so apologies if has already been addressed, but what is the trigger for the state being allowed to appoint a City Manager?