Flint, Michigan lead poisoning in water supply (2 Viewers)

[jon_mx]

Ex-emergency manager says he's not to blame for Flint River water switch
FLINT, MI — Former emergency managerDarnell Earley says he's not to blame for the decision to use the Flint River as the city's source of drinking water.

Earley, who served as Flint's emergency manager from September 2013 until January 2015, said in an email to The Flint Journal-MLive on Tuesday, Oct. 13, that the water source decision was made months before he was appointed to run the city by Gov. Rick Snyder.

The Michigan Democratic Party called Tuesday on Snyder to fire Earley from his current position as emergency manager of Detroit Public Schools based on his position in charge in Flint when the switch in water source was made.

Earley said he had no reason at the time to second-guess what appeared to have been a consensus decision.

"The decision to separate from (the Detroit Water and Sewerage Department) and go with the Karegnondi Water Authority, including the decision to pump Flint River water in the interim, were both a part of a long-term plan that was approved by Flint's mayor, and confirmed by a City Council vote of 7-1 in March of 2013 — a full seven months before I began my term as emergency manager," Earley's email says.

Although the Flint City Council voted in March 2013 in support of moving to the KWA pipeline — a new pipeline that would serve the region with Lake Huron water — there is no record that the council voted to use the Flint River as a short-term drinking water source.

Earley, who toasted the switch to the river with city leaders in a ceremony in April 2014, said it was his "responsibility to implement the previously accepted and approved plan" since the city's contract with the Detroit water system expired during his term as emergency manager.

So it seems the Democratically elected mayor was behind getting the ball rolling to make the switch. But somehow now it is all the city's managers fault who just continued the policy. I don't know the entire truth, but it is apparent Maddows is not presenting it.

 

[kface]

Ex-emergency manager says he's not to blame for Flint River water switch
FLINT, MI — Former emergency managerDarnell Earley says he's not to blame for the decision to use the Flint River as the city's source of drinking water.

Earley, who served as Flint's emergency manager from September 2013 until January 2015, said in an email to The Flint Journal-MLive on Tuesday, Oct. 13, that the water source decision was made months before he was appointed to run the city by Gov. Rick Snyder.

The Michigan Democratic Party called Tuesday on Snyder to fire Earley from his current position as emergency manager of Detroit Public Schools based on his position in charge in Flint when the switch in water source was made.

Earley said he had no reason at the time to second-guess what appeared to have been a consensus decision.

"The decision to separate from (the Detroit Water and Sewerage Department) and go with the Karegnondi Water Authority, including the decision to pump Flint River water in the interim, were both a part of a long-term plan that was approved by Flint's mayor, and confirmed by a City Council vote of 7-1 in March of 2013 — a full seven months before I began my term as emergency manager," Earley's email says.

Although the Flint City Council voted in March 2013 in support of moving to the KWA pipeline — a new pipeline that would serve the region with Lake Huron water — there is no record that the council voted to use the Flint River as a short-term drinking water source.

Earley, who toasted the switch to the river with city leaders in a ceremony in April 2014, said it was his "responsibility to implement the previously accepted and approved plan" since the city's contract with the Detroit water system expired during his term as emergency manager.

So it seems the Democratically elected mayor was behind getting the ball rolling to make the switch. But somehow now it is all the city's managers fault who just continued the policy. I don't know the entire truth, but it is apparent Maddows is not presenting it.

You didn't read that did you? Council approved switching the water supplies, they did not approve using the interim water supply. That's the problem

 

[jon_mx]

On another note, the city was under a judicial order from a local judge to reduce water rates by 35%, so there was legal pressure to cut costs.

 

[kface]

On another note, the city was under a judicial order from a local judge to reduce water rates by 35%, so there was legal pressure to cut costs.

Who the hell cares. Can you imagine for one second this was your children that had been drinking this water. There is no way that people didn't know and there is no way the process didn't unfold with political pressure influencing engineering decisions. It just does not happen that way in the industry that they would have unknowingly done something like this.

 

[GroveDiesel]

Ex-emergency manager says he's not to blame for Flint River water switch



FLINT, MI Former emergency managerDarnell Earley says he's not to blame for the decision to use the Flint River as the city's source of drinking water.

Earley, who served as Flint's emergency manager from September 2013 until January 2015, said in an email to The Flint Journal-MLive on Tuesday, Oct. 13, that the water source decision was made months before he was appointed to run the city by Gov. Rick Snyder.

The Michigan Democratic Party called Tuesday on Snyder to fire Earley from his current position as emergency manager of Detroit Public Schools based on his position in charge in Flint when the switch in water source was made.

Earley said he had no reason at the time to second-guess what appeared to have been a consensus decision.

"The decision to separate from (the Detroit Water and Sewerage Department) and go with the Karegnondi Water Authority, including the decision to pump Flint River water in the interim, were both a part of a long-term plan that was approved by Flint's mayor, and confirmed by a City Council vote of 7-1 in March of 2013 a full seven months before I began my term as emergency manager," Earley's email says.

Although the Flint City Council voted in March 2013 in support of moving to the KWA pipeline a new pipeline that would serve the region with Lake Huron water there is no record that the council voted to use the Flint River as a short-term drinking water source.

Earley, who toasted the switch to the river with city leaders in a ceremony in April 2014, said it was his "responsibility to implement the previously accepted and approved plan" since the city's contract with the Detroit water system expired during his term as emergency manager.

So it seems the Democratically elected mayor was behind getting the ball rolling to make the switch. But somehow now it is all the city's managers fault who just continued the policy. I don't know the entire truth, but it is apparent Maddows is not presenting it.

You didn't read that did you? Council approved switching the water supplies, they did not approve using the interim water supply. That's the problem

The article says that there was some sort of celebration ceremony in March 2014 that included the city's leaders. Is there ANY evidence that the city wouldn't have done the EXACT same thing if Earley wasn't there? That article certainly makes it seem like Earley was along for the ride on this one rather than a driver of decisions in any way.

 

[jon_mx]

Ex-emergency manager says he's not to blame for Flint River water switch
FLINT, MI — Former emergency managerDarnell Earley says he's not to blame for the decision to use the Flint River as the city's source of drinking water.

Earley, who served as Flint's emergency manager from September 2013 until January 2015, said in an email to The Flint Journal-MLive on Tuesday, Oct. 13, that the water source decision was made months before he was appointed to run the city by Gov. Rick Snyder.

The Michigan Democratic Party called Tuesday on Snyder to fire Earley from his current position as emergency manager of Detroit Public Schools based on his position in charge in Flint when the switch in water source was made.

Earley said he had no reason at the time to second-guess what appeared to have been a consensus decision.

"The decision to separate from (the Detroit Water and Sewerage Department) and go with the Karegnondi Water Authority, including the decision to pump Flint River water in the interim, were both a part of a long-term plan that was approved by Flint's mayor, and confirmed by a City Council vote of 7-1 in March of 2013 — a full seven months before I began my term as emergency manager," Earley's email says.

Although the Flint City Council voted in March 2013 in support of moving to the KWA pipeline — a new pipeline that would serve the region with Lake Huron water — there is no record that the council voted to use the Flint River as a short-term drinking water source.

Earley, who toasted the switch to the river with city leaders in a ceremony in April 2014, said it was his "responsibility to implement the previously accepted and approved plan" since the city's contract with the Detroit water system expired during his term as emergency manager.

So it seems the Democratically elected mayor was behind getting the ball rolling to make the switch. But somehow now it is all the city's managers fault who just continued the policy. I don't know the entire truth, but it is apparent Maddows is not presenting it.

You didn't read that did you? Council approved switching the water supplies, they did not approve using the interim water supply. That's the problem

I read it, but Early is claiming there was more. Maybe there was a plan in place for the switch which included that. Or maybe he is just spinning things. Who knows, but clearly Early could be motivated to try to cover himself.

 

[kface]

Ex-emergency manager says he's not to blame for Flint River water switch



FLINT, MI Former emergency managerDarnell Earley says he's not to blame for the decision to use the Flint River as the city's source of drinking water.

Earley, who served as Flint's emergency manager from September 2013 until January 2015, said in an email to The Flint Journal-MLive on Tuesday, Oct. 13, that the water source decision was made months before he was appointed to run the city by Gov. Rick Snyder.

The Michigan Democratic Party called Tuesday on Snyder to fire Earley from his current position as emergency manager of Detroit Public Schools based on his position in charge in Flint when the switch in water source was made.

Earley said he had no reason at the time to second-guess what appeared to have been a consensus decision.

"The decision to separate from (the Detroit Water and Sewerage Department) and go with the Karegnondi Water Authority, including the decision to pump Flint River water in the interim, were both a part of a long-term plan that was approved by Flint's mayor, and confirmed by a City Council vote of 7-1 in March of 2013 a full seven months before I began my term as emergency manager," Earley's email says.

Although the Flint City Council voted in March 2013 in support of moving to the KWA pipeline a new pipeline that would serve the region with Lake Huron water there is no record that the council voted to use the Flint River as a short-term drinking water source.

Earley, who toasted the switch to the river with city leaders in a ceremony in April 2014, said it was his "responsibility to implement the previously accepted and approved plan" since the city's contract with the Detroit water system expired during his term as emergency manager.

So it seems the Democratically elected mayor was behind getting the ball rolling to make the switch. But somehow now it is all the city's managers fault who just continued the policy. I don't know the entire truth, but it is apparent Maddows is not presenting it.

You didn't read that did you? Council approved switching the water supplies, they did not approve using the interim water supply. That's the problem

The article says that there was some sort of celebration ceremony in March 2014 that included the city's leaders. Is there ANY evidence that the city wouldn't have done the EXACT same thing if Earley wasn't there? That article certainly makes it seem like Earley was along for the ride on this one rather than a driver of decisions in any way.

You can't presuppose that and I suspect if City engineers stood up in front of council and said 'you can't use the flint river water because it is poisonous and we can't remove them from the system' at least one of the Councillors, if not all of them (hopefully), would have said something

 

[jon_mx]

On another note, the city was under a judicial order from a local judge to reduce water rates by 35%, so there was legal pressure to cut costs.

Who the hell cares. Can you imagine for one second this was your children that had been drinking this water. There is no way that people didn't know and there is no way the process didn't unfold with political pressure influencing engineering decisions. It just does not happen that way in the industry that they would have unknowingly done something like this.

I understand the results and why people are angry. But accusations of doing this on purpose seem farfetched. It seems like a lot of mistakes made by numerous people besides the ones Maddows is targeting. Tons of incompetence and tons of CYA. But this is not Hitler trying to exterminate Jews as some have implied.

 

[kface]

On another note, the city was under a judicial order from a local judge to reduce water rates by 35%, so there was legal pressure to cut costs.

Who the hell cares. Can you imagine for one second this was your children that had been drinking this water. There is no way that people didn't know and there is no way the process didn't unfold with political pressure influencing engineering decisions. It just does not happen that way in the industry that they would have unknowingly done something like this.

I understand the results and why people are angry. But accusations of doing this on purpose seem farfetched. It seems like a lot of mistakes made by numerous people besides the ones Maddows is targeting. Tons of incompetence and tons of CYA. But this is not Hitler trying to exterminate Jews as some have implied.

Do you understand how rigorous the process is for switching water supplies? There is no way they wouldn't have known.

 

[timschochet]

On another note, the city was under a judicial order from a local judge to reduce water rates by 35%, so there was legal pressure to cut costs.

Who the hell cares. Can you imagine for one second this was your children that had been drinking this water. There is no way that people didn't know and there is no way the process didn't unfold with political pressure influencing engineering decisions. It just does not happen that way in the industry that they would have unknowingly done something like this.

I understand the results and why people are angry. But accusations of doing this on purpose seem farfetched. It seems like a lot of mistakes made by numerous people besides the ones Maddows is targeting. Tons of incompetence and tons of CYA. But this is not Hitler trying to exterminate Jews as some have implied.

Even if you're right about this (and I have no idea)- if the CYA caused more people to get sick because fixing the issue was delayed, that's just as bad as making the deliberate decision in the first place.

 

[Ilov80s]

On another note, the city was under a judicial order from a local judge to reduce water rates by 35%, so there was legal pressure to cut costs.

Who the hell cares. Can you imagine for one second this was your children that had been drinking this water. There is no way that people didn't know and there is no way the process didn't unfold with political pressure influencing engineering decisions. It just does not happen that way in the industry that they would have unknowingly done something like this.

I understand the results and why people are angry. But accusations of doing this on purpose seem farfetched. It seems like a lot of mistakes made by numerous people besides the ones Maddows is targeting. Tons of incompetence and tons of CYA. But this is not Hitler trying to exterminate Jews as some have implied.

Funny, I just read one of your posts in Tim's thread about how he is a big government trusting elitist always immediately giving them the benefit of the doubt.

 

[kface]

On another note, the city was under a judicial order from a local judge to reduce water rates by 35%, so there was legal pressure to cut costs.

Who the hell cares. Can you imagine for one second this was your children that had been drinking this water. There is no way that people didn't know and there is no way the process didn't unfold with political pressure influencing engineering decisions. It just does not happen that way in the industry that they would have unknowingly done something like this.

I understand the results and why people are angry. But accusations of doing this on purpose seem farfetched. It seems like a lot of mistakes made by numerous people besides the ones Maddows is targeting. Tons of incompetence and tons of CYA. But this is not Hitler trying to exterminate Jews as some have implied.

Even if you're right about this (and I have no idea)- if the CYA caused more people to get sick because fixing the issue was delayed, that's just as bad as making the deliberate decision in the first place.

I can guarantee somewhere along the line someone circumvented the rules behind very closed doors to make this decision and they would have had the facts right in front of their face

 

[GroveDiesel]

Ex-emergency manager says he's not to blame for Flint River water switch



FLINT, MI Former emergency managerDarnell Earley http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2015/01/flint_em_darnell_earley_to_bec.htmlsays he's not to blame for the decision to use the Flint River as the city's source of drinking water.

Earley, who served as Flint's emergency manager from September 2013 until January 2015, said in an email to The Flint Journal-MLive on Tuesday, Oct. 13, that the water source decision was made months before he was appointed to run the city by Gov. Rick Snyderhttp://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/10/seven_key_takeaways_from_gov_s.html.

The Michigan Democratic Party called Tuesday on Snyder to fire Earley from his current position as emergency manager of Detroit Public Schools based on his position in charge in Flint when the switch in water sourcehttp://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/10/how_the_flint_water_crisis_eme.html was made.

Earley said he had no reason at the time to second-guess what appeared to have been a consensus decision.

"The decision to separate from (the Detroit Water and Sewerage Department) and go with the Karegnondi Water Authorityhttp://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/10/kwa_crews_still_working_to_bri.html, including the decision to pump Flint River water in the interim, were both a part of a long-term plan that was approved by Flint's mayor, and confirmed by a City Council vote of 7-1 in March of 2013 a full seven months before I began my term as emergency manager," Earley's email says.

Although the Flint City Council voted in March 2013 in support of moving to the KWA pipeline a new pipeline that would serve the region with Lake Huron water there is no record that the council voted to use the Flint River as a short-term drinking water source.

Earley, who toasted the switch to the river with city leaders in a ceremony in April 2014, said it was his "responsibility to implement the previously accepted and approved plan" since the city's contract with the Detroit water system expired during his term as emergency manager.

So it seems the Democratically elected mayor was behind getting the ball rolling to make the switch. But somehow now it is all the city's managers fault who just continued the policy. I don't know the entire truth, but it is apparent Maddows is not presenting it.

You didn't read that did you? Council approved switching the water supplies, they did not approve using the interim water supply. That's the problem

The article says that there was some sort of celebration ceremony in March 2014 that included the city's leaders. Is there ANY evidence that the city wouldn't have done the EXACT same thing if Earley wasn't there? That article certainly makes it seem like Earley was along for the ride on this one rather than a driver of decisions in any way.

You can't presuppose that and I suspect if City engineers stood up in front of council and said 'you can't use the flint river water because it is poisonous and we can't remove them from the system' at least one of the Councillors, if not all of them (hopefully), would have said something

Yet you're presupposing that Earley made the unilateral decision to use the Flint River while blatantly ignoring water engineers.

It seems unlikely that the water switch decision was made well in advance of Earley but that he modified it unilaterally. Much more likely is that the entire plan was indeed set in place by city leaders before Earley was on scene.

Now, the big question there is if water engineers ever voiced concerns, and if so, when did they voice them and to whom did they voice them to? At this point we don't have answers to any of that, and until we do, I'm not sure how we can assign blame to any specific parties.

 

[kface]

Ex-emergency manager says he's not to blame for Flint River water switch



FLINT, MI Former emergency managerDarnell Earley says he's not to blame for the decision to use the Flint River as the city's source of drinking water.

Earley, who served as Flint's emergency manager from September 2013 until January 2015, said in an email to The Flint Journal-MLive on Tuesday, Oct. 13, that the water source decision was made months before he was appointed to run the city by Gov. Rick Snyder.

The Michigan Democratic Party called Tuesday on Snyder to fire Earley from his current position as emergency manager of Detroit Public Schools based on his position in charge in Flint when the switch in water source was made.

Earley said he had no reason at the time to second-guess what appeared to have been a consensus decision.

"The decision to separate from (the Detroit Water and Sewerage Department) and go with the Karegnondi Water Authority, including the decision to pump Flint River water in the interim, were both a part of a long-term plan that was approved by Flint's mayor, and confirmed by a City Council vote of 7-1 in March of 2013 a full seven months before I began my term as emergency manager," Earley's email says.

Although the Flint City Council voted in March 2013 in support of moving to the KWA pipeline a new pipeline that would serve the region with Lake Huron water there is no record that the council voted to use the Flint River as a short-term drinking water source.

Earley, who toasted the switch to the river with city leaders in a ceremony in April 2014, said it was his "responsibility to implement the previously accepted and approved plan" since the city's contract with the Detroit water system expired during his term as emergency manager.

So it seems the Democratically elected mayor was behind getting the ball rolling to make the switch. But somehow now it is all the city's managers fault who just continued the policy. I don't know the entire truth, but it is apparent Maddows is not presenting it.

You didn't read that did you? Council approved switching the water supplies, they did not approve using the interim water supply. That's the problem

The article says that there was some sort of celebration ceremony in March 2014 that included the city's leaders. Is there ANY evidence that the city wouldn't have done the EXACT same thing if Earley wasn't there? That article certainly makes it seem like Earley was along for the ride on this one rather than a driver of decisions in any way.

You can't presuppose that and I suspect if City engineers stood up in front of council and said 'you can't use the flint river water because it is poisonous and we can't remove them from the system' at least one of the Councillors, if not all of them (hopefully), would have said something

Yet you're presupposing that Earley made the unilateral decision to use the Flint River while blatantly ignoring water engineers.

It seems unlikely that the water switch decision was made well in advance of Earley but that he modified it unilaterally. Much more likely is that the entire plan was indeed set in place by city leaders before Earley was on scene.

Now, the big question there is if water engineers ever voiced concerns, and if so, when did they voice them and to whom did they voice them to? At this point we don't have answers to any of that, and until we do, I'm not sure how we can assign blame to any specific parties.

I'm not actually presupposing he did, I am saying someone did. Who that someone is is a question mark. But again the process is too difficult to just blindly do it. They would have had the facts right in front of their face whoever told them to pull the trigger

I have trouble believing at least one councilor wouldn't have been aghast at poisoning children and went public. I would not put my money on council on this one.

 

[jon_mx]

On another note, the city was under a judicial order from a local judge to reduce water rates by 35%, so there was legal pressure to cut costs.

Who the hell cares. Can you imagine for one second this was your children that had been drinking this water. There is no way that people didn't know and there is no way the process didn't unfold with political pressure influencing engineering decisions. It just does not happen that way in the industry that they would have unknowingly done something like this.

I understand the results and why people are angry. But accusations of doing this on purpose seem farfetched. It seems like a lot of mistakes made by numerous people besides the ones Maddows is targeting. Tons of incompetence and tons of CYA. But this is not Hitler trying to exterminate Jews as some have implied.

Even if you're right about this (and I have no idea)- if the CYA caused more people to get sick because fixing the issue was delayed, that's just as bad as making the deliberate decision in the first place.

I don't disagree. If there is criminal actions, that was probably it.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

On another note, the city was under a judicial order from a local judge to reduce water rates by 35%, so there was legal pressure to cut costs.

Who the hell cares. Can you imagine for one second this was your children that had been drinking this water. There is no way that people didn't know and there is no way the process didn't unfold with political pressure influencing engineering decisions. It just does not happen that way in the industry that they would have unknowingly done something like this.

I understand the results and why people are angry. But accusations of doing this on purpose seem farfetched. It seems like a lot of mistakes made by numerous people besides the ones Maddows is targeting. Tons of incompetence and tons of CYA. But this is not Hitler trying to exterminate Jews as some have implied.

Even if you're right about this (and I have no idea)- if the CYA caused more people to get sick because fixing the issue was delayed, that's just as bad as making the deliberate decision in the first place.

The original decision to switch water supplies without getting the water treated first sounds like just a simple case of incompetence. The cover-up from the governor's office is willfully malicious and is really the big scandal here.

 

[kface]

On another note, the city was under a judicial order from a local judge to reduce water rates by 35%, so there was legal pressure to cut costs.

Who the hell cares. Can you imagine for one second this was your children that had been drinking this water. There is no way that people didn't know and there is no way the process didn't unfold with political pressure influencing engineering decisions. It just does not happen that way in the industry that they would have unknowingly done something like this.

I understand the results and why people are angry. But accusations of doing this on purpose seem farfetched. It seems like a lot of mistakes made by numerous people besides the ones Maddows is targeting. Tons of incompetence and tons of CYA. But this is not Hitler trying to exterminate Jews as some have implied.

Even if you're right about this (and I have no idea)- if the CYA caused more people to get sick because fixing the issue was delayed, that's just as bad as making the deliberate decision in the first place.

The original decision to switch water supplies without getting the water treated first sounds like just a simple case of incompetence. The cover-up from the governor's office is willfully malicious and is really the big scandal here.

You guys are missing the fact that you can't just switch water supplies, there is a ton of testing, reports and design that is required in order to do that.

 

[Rove!]

What did he know and when did he know it? What were his advisors telling him? That email from his chief of staff is pretty damning. I await the final report.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

On another note, the city was under a judicial order from a local judge to reduce water rates by 35%, so there was legal pressure to cut costs.

Who the hell cares. Can you imagine for one second this was your children that had been drinking this water. There is no way that people didn't know and there is no way the process didn't unfold with political pressure influencing engineering decisions. It just does not happen that way in the industry that they would have unknowingly done something like this.

I understand the results and why people are angry. But accusations of doing this on purpose seem farfetched. It seems like a lot of mistakes made by numerous people besides the ones Maddows is targeting. Tons of incompetence and tons of CYA. But this is not Hitler trying to exterminate Jews as some have implied.

Even if you're right about this (and I have no idea)- if the CYA caused more people to get sick because fixing the issue was delayed, that's just as bad as making the deliberate decision in the first place.

The original decision to switch water supplies without getting the water treated first sounds like just a simple case of incompetence. The cover-up from the governor's office is willfully malicious and is really the big scandal here.

You guys are missing the fact that you can't just switch water supplies, there is a ton of testing, reports and design that is required in order to do that.

Huh? I mentioned that specifically in the post you responded to.

 

[Amused to Death]

Per Maddow on last night's show, there's still no fix in place. Residents have been relying on water donations and the governor has not requested help. FEMA is sending people but not by the request of the governor.

Again, as reported by Maddow so believe what you want.

 

[Rove!]

On another note, the city was under a judicial order from a local judge to reduce water rates by 35%, so there was legal pressure to cut costs.

Who the hell cares. Can you imagine for one second this was your children that had been drinking this water. There is no way that people didn't know and there is no way the process didn't unfold with political pressure influencing engineering decisions. It just does not happen that way in the industry that they would have unknowingly done something like this.

I understand the results and why people are angry. But accusations of doing this on purpose seem farfetched. It seems like a lot of mistakes made by numerous people besides the ones Maddows is targeting. Tons of incompetence and tons of CYA. But this is not Hitler trying to exterminate Jews as some have implied.

Even if you're right about this (and I have no idea)- if the CYA caused more people to get sick because fixing the issue was delayed, that's just as bad as making the deliberate decision in the first place.

The original decision to switch water supplies without getting the water treated first sounds like just a simple case of incompetence. The cover-up from the governor's office is willfully malicious and is really the big scandal here.

I think this needs to be investigated. I find that level of incompetence very difficult to believe.

 

[kface]

On another note, the city was under a judicial order from a local judge to reduce water rates by 35%, so there was legal pressure to cut costs.

Who the hell cares. Can you imagine for one second this was your children that had been drinking this water. There is no way that people didn't know and there is no way the process didn't unfold with political pressure influencing engineering decisions. It just does not happen that way in the industry that they would have unknowingly done something like this.

I understand the results and why people are angry. But accusations of doing this on purpose seem farfetched. It seems like a lot of mistakes made by numerous people besides the ones Maddows is targeting. Tons of incompetence and tons of CYA. But this is not Hitler trying to exterminate Jews as some have implied.

Even if you're right about this (and I have no idea)- if the CYA caused more people to get sick because fixing the issue was delayed, that's just as bad as making the deliberate decision in the first place.

The original decision to switch water supplies without getting the water treated first sounds like just a simple case of incompetence. The cover-up from the governor's office is willfully malicious and is really the big scandal here.

You guys are missing the fact that you can't just switch water supplies, there is a ton of testing, reports and design that is required in order to do that.

Huh? I mentioned that specifically in the post you responded to.

I was responding to the incompetence part. There is no way it was gross incompetence. The whole process is standardized and requires third party testing

 

[quickhands]

I have a facility in Flint, MI. Been going there for almost 20 years. That part of the country has been a disaster since I have been going there. The recession of 2008 was the final nail. Flint is dead. Never coming back.

Detroit and Flint are beyond broke, poorly managed and full of corruption. The MI DEQ is very understaffed and poorly managed. Throw in the corruption at the state and you get Detroit and Flint. It is a shame how citizens of that area are being treated.

Detroit is booming right now. It's nothing like Flint at all.

Flint is a mess. Very little happening to revive the city.

I guess they are trying to turn it into a college town is the latest flight of fantasy. Tho the city has one of the best engineering schools in the country, Kettering. As well as U of M,flint and and a really good community college, Mott.

Plus I just found out Eminence went to Baker college in flint. So that's something.

The city has been stripped clean politicians over the last 40 years. At one time they had a ton of skilled laborers. But that has dissappeared.

I don't know how you fix this place.

 

[cockroach]

Crimes Against Humanity???????

Yes they are certain acts which are committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population or an identifiable part of a population. The first prosecution for crimes against humanity took place at the Nuremberg Trials.

OK, whatever. Continue on!

Glad children suffering from lead poisoning at the direction of the Governor is amusing to you.

You jump to way too many conclusions and make too many accusations. What you say and what the facts show are two different things. It was a mistake and seems to have had some terrible consequences, but it was not intentional. If the governor had any idea how bad it really was, he would have done things differently. You make it sound like he ordered the poisoning. It was a sequence of unforseen events. He probably should have responded better and that's what he is guilty of. Hindsight though is easy.

The fact you said any of this shows you do not have any, not one single fact.

The bolded says it all. He did have an idea, thats what the email is about and all he did was deny.

He did order poisoning, he was told what taking the water from the river would cause. Its why he ordered chemicals to hide it.

Unforeseen? This was literally spelled out to him by the EPA.

But I do not know much about it, other than the facts put out everywhere and I have only sat in city hall in Flint over this for about 50 hours the past 6 months.

Here is the email from July of last year, yes JULY!

http://michiganradio...own-us#stream/0

In one e-mail, Dennis Muchmore, Gov. Snyder’s then-chief of staff, writes the following:

“I’m frustrated by the water issue in Flint. I really don’t think people are getting the benefit of the doubt. Now they are concerned and rightfully so about the lead level studies they are receiving from the DEQ samples … These folks are scared and worried about the health impacts and they are basically getting blown off by us (as a state we’re just not sympathizing with their plight).”

The email does not even come remotely close to establishing what you say it does. In actuality, he sounds kind of concern with the situation, but does not know what to do. That is very different then intentionally ordering poisoning children. You act like the governor is a chemist who understands all this stuff and a doctor who understands how serious these levels could be. Hindsight is much easier.

In actuality it sounds like the Gov is being informed that he can't ignore the situation any longer. That's basically his #1 guy saying these people getting poisoned and are getting the cold shoulder from their office and they can't keep it up.

How can you write that off as nothing?

 

[squistion]

Rachel Maddow MSNBC ‏@maddow



An overwhelming number of folks have asked how they can help with the lead poisoning disaster in Flint. Here's how: http://goo.gl/dNbiEB

 

[Van Dyman]

If there's another side I'd love to hear it. I don't mind Maddow but I'm not a huge fan or anything. I happened to be watching that night because of Bernie's kerfuffle with the DNC (which CNN barely covered).

I hope this piece isn't a hatchet job but I don't have enough experience with her reporting to know what to expect one way or the other. I'd certainly be disappointed if it was.

Maddow has an obsession with the "emergency manager" thing. States have the authority to do this, and there's nothing inherently anti-democratic about it. (The governor and state legislators who authorize this step are all democratically elected). She seems to be conflating bad decision-making by city leaders with the "emergency manager" system when there's no reason think that there's any connection between the two.

That said, she's 100% right that these people all report directly to the governor, so if they screw up, it's on him. Everything I've read so far is that this is a huge and possibly criminal issue for Snyder. That seems right to me, again based on what's been presented so far.

Perhaps but there was special legislation enacted for this authority according to the Maddow segment I watched. Sorry I don't have the link, but I doubt she just made that part up.

My understanding is that states have very broad authority to delegate or not delegate stuff to cities and counties. I don't doubt that it might require state-level legislation to change the current degree of delegation.

Edit: As a general principle, I'd rather see more stuff handled locally. I'm just saying that there's nothing anti-democratic about any of this. I see no reason to think that voters in MI don't approve of micromanaging cities that can't get their act together (by the voters' standards).

The people of Michigan voted it down then the legislature found a way to do it anyway, against the voters' will. Is that a significant enough reason to think voters in MI don't approve?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/08/us/michigan-voters-kill-emergency-managers-for-city-finances.html?_r=0

 

[jon_mx]

Crimes Against Humanity???????

Yes they are certain acts which are committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population or an identifiable part of a population. The first prosecution for crimes against humanity took place at the Nuremberg Trials.

OK, whatever. Continue on!

Glad children suffering from lead poisoning at the direction of the Governor is amusing to you.

You jump to way too many conclusions and make too many accusations. What you say and what the facts show are two different things. It was a mistake and seems to have had some terrible consequences, but it was not intentional. If the governor had any idea how bad it really was, he would have done things differently. You make it sound like he ordered the poisoning. It was a sequence of unforseen events. He probably should have responded better and that's what he is guilty of. Hindsight though is easy.

The fact you said any of this shows you do not have any, not one single fact.

The bolded says it all. He did have an idea, thats what the email is about and all he did was deny.

He did order poisoning, he was told what taking the water from the river would cause. Its why he ordered chemicals to hide it.

Unforeseen? This was literally spelled out to him by the EPA.

But I do not know much about it, other than the facts put out everywhere and I have only sat in city hall in Flint over this for about 50 hours the past 6 months.

Here is the email from July of last year, yes JULY!

http://michiganradio...own-us#stream/0



In one e-mail, Dennis Muchmore, Gov. Snyders then-chief of staff, writes the following:

Im frustrated by the water issue in Flint. I really dont think people are getting the benefit of the doubt. Now they are concerned and rightfully so about the lead level studies they are receiving from the DEQ samples These folks are scared and worried about the health impacts and they are basically getting blown off by us (as a state were just not sympathizing with their plight).

The email does not even come remotely close to establishing what you say it does. In actuality, he sounds kind of concern with the situation, but does not know what to do. That is very different then intentionally ordering poisoning children. You act like the governor is a chemist who understands all this stuff and a doctor who understands how serious these levels could be. Hindsight is much easier.

In actuality it sounds like the Gov is being informed that he can't ignore the situation any longer. That's basically his #1 guy saying these people getting poisoned and are getting the cold shoulder from their office and they can't keep it up.

How can you write that off as nothing?

I miss the part where I wrote it off as nothing.

 

[Rove!]

This is an excellent timeline of events

http://michiganradio.org/post/timeline-heres-how-flint-water-crisis-unfolded#stream/0

It makes one wonder why the EPA wasnt more proactive, as well

 

[jabarony]

Crimes Against Humanity???????

Yes they are certain acts which are committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population or an identifiable part of a population. The first prosecution for crimes against humanity took place at the Nuremberg Trials.

OK, whatever. Continue on!

Glad children suffering from lead poisoning at the direction of the Governor is amusing to you.

You jump to way too many conclusions and make too many accusations. What you say and what the facts show are two different things. It was a mistake and seems to have had some terrible consequences, but it was not intentional. If the governor had any idea how bad it really was, he would have done things differently. You make it sound like he ordered the poisoning. It was a sequence of unforseen events. He probably should have responded better and that's what he is guilty of. Hindsight though is easy.

While I won't go as far as DirtyJay, the Governor and the environmental agency knew. There are some very incriminating emails that have been exposed. Like her or not, Maddow's been on this story for a while.

Maddow's on the case!

Just what the folks in Flint need - smarm.

 

[Rove!]

http://michiganradio.org/post/email-snyders-chief-staff-people-flint-are-getting-blown-us#stream/0

Shows the email from the chief of staff...

 

[Van Dyman]

Ex-emergency manager says he's not to blame for Flint River water switch
FLINT, MI — Former emergency managerDarnell Earley says he's not to blame for the decision to use the Flint River as the city's source of drinking water.

Earley, who served as Flint's emergency manager from September 2013 until January 2015, said in an email to The Flint Journal-MLive on Tuesday, Oct. 13, that the water source decision was made months before he was appointed to run the city by Gov. Rick Snyder.

The Michigan Democratic Party called Tuesday on Snyder to fire Earley from his current position as emergency manager of Detroit Public Schools based on his position in charge in Flint when the switch in water source was made.

Earley said he had no reason at the time to second-guess what appeared to have been a consensus decision.

"The decision to separate from (the Detroit Water and Sewerage Department) and go with the Karegnondi Water Authority, including the decision to pump Flint River water in the interim, were both a part of a long-term plan that was approved by Flint's mayor, and confirmed by a City Council vote of 7-1 in March of 2013 — a full seven months before I began my term as emergency manager," Earley's email says.

Although the Flint City Council voted in March 2013 in support of moving to the KWA pipeline — a new pipeline that would serve the region with Lake Huron water — there is no record that the council voted to use the Flint River as a short-term drinking water source.

Earley, who toasted the switch to the river with city leaders in a ceremony in April 2014, said it was his "responsibility to implement the previously accepted and approved plan" since the city's contract with the Detroit water system expired during his term as emergency manager.

So it seems the Democratically elected mayor was behind getting the ball rolling to make the switch. But somehow now it is all the city's managers fault who just continued the policy. I don't know the entire truth, but it is apparent Maddows is not presenting it.

My understanding is that the mayor and council approved a plan to switch from one provider of Lake Huron water (Detroit) to another provider of Lake Huron water. They did not approve any plan to take water from the river. I think. I'll try to double-check but as best as I can remember, that's how it went.

 

[Rove!]

http://michiganradio.org/post/email-snyders-chief-staff-people-flint-are-getting-blown-us#stream/0

Shows the email from the chief of staff...

Puts a slightly different spin on things...the chief of staff looks to be castigating the health department about their belief that the water was safe....

 

[Rove!]

EPA knew in February....

http://nbc25news.com/news/local/newly-released-e-mails-show-epa-knew-about-lead-in-flints-drinking-water

 

[BroncoFreak_2K3]

Per Maddow on last night's show, there's still no fix in place. Residents have been relying on water donations and the governor has not requested help. FEMA is sending people but not by the request of the governor.

Again, as reported by Maddow so believe what you want.

Shes either very misinformed or a flat out liar.

The only way FEMA and the federal government can get involved in something like this is if/when the governor of a state signs an emergency declaration. Its all in the Robert T. Stafford Act. FEMA can't just send people. Things have to be initiated by the State's governor in order for Federal protection, cleanup/recovery, mitigation, and financial assistance programs to local communities to begin.

My understanding is, NerdGov signed the emergency declaration on January 5, 2016, http://michigan.gov/deq/0,4561,7-135-3313_3675_73946-372653--,00.html

He has activated the SEOC, and things are now progressing with the aid of the Federal govt, as they should. No question it's taken way too long, but the means of fixing this with help of the Federal government have been done according to protocol.

http://michigan.gov/deq/0,4561,7-135-3313_3675_73946---,00.html

I have no dog in this fight, and I hope things get fixed soon, but I do work in emergency management in Michigan, and if she is saying the Governor has not requested help, shes flat out wrong.

 

[Rove!]

I don't understand the while decision to use Flint water in the interim...(I do, but...)...if they had just extended the contract with Detroit until the new pipeline was up and running they would have heroes instead of villains...using an interim resource meant they had to cut over twice and added a ####load of unnecessary risk...

 

[IvanKaramazov]

If there's another side I'd love to hear it. I don't mind Maddow but I'm not a huge fan or anything. I happened to be watching that night because of Bernie's kerfuffle with the DNC (which CNN barely covered).

I hope this piece isn't a hatchet job but I don't have enough experience with her reporting to know what to expect one way or the other. I'd certainly be disappointed if it was.

Maddow has an obsession with the "emergency manager" thing. States have the authority to do this, and there's nothing inherently anti-democratic about it. (The governor and state legislators who authorize this step are all democratically elected). She seems to be conflating bad decision-making by city leaders with the "emergency manager" system when there's no reason think that there's any connection between the two.

That said, she's 100% right that these people all report directly to the governor, so if they screw up, it's on him. Everything I've read so far is that this is a huge and possibly criminal issue for Snyder. That seems right to me, again based on what's been presented so far.

Perhaps but there was special legislation enacted for this authority according to the Maddow segment I watched. Sorry I don't have the link, but I doubt she just made that part up.

My understanding is that states have very broad authority to delegate or not delegate stuff to cities and counties. I don't doubt that it might require state-level legislation to change the current degree of delegation.

Edit: As a general principle, I'd rather see more stuff handled locally. I'm just saying that there's nothing anti-democratic about any of this. I see no reason to think that voters in MI don't approve of micromanaging cities that can't get their act together (by the voters' standards).

The people of Michigan voted it down then the legislature found a way to do it anyway, against the voters' will. Is that a significant enough reason to think voters in MI don't approve?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/08/us/michigan-voters-kill-emergency-managers-for-city-finances.html?_r=0

Yeah, that changes things a bit. Although the legislators who voted for this were presumably democratically elected themselves. I get your point though.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I was responding to the incompetence part. There is no way it was gross incompetence. The whole process is standardized and requires third party testing

Well, it's either a case of a bunch of people screwing up horribly or a bunch of people deliberately deciding to poison an entire city's water supply without any dissenters raising a stink. I think the "incompetence" angle is more likely than the "evil" angle, but surely this is going to get investigated, so we'll eventually find out either way.

 

[Amused to Death]

Per Maddow on last night's show, there's still no fix in place. Residents have been relying on water donations and the governor has not requested help. FEMA is sending people but not by the request of the governor.

Again, as reported by Maddow so believe what you want.

Shes either very misinformed or a flat out liar.

The only way FEMA and the federal government can get involved in something like this is if/when the governor of a state signs an emergency declaration. Its all in the Robert T. Stafford Act. FEMA can't just send people. Things have to be initiated by the State's governor in order for Federal protection, cleanup/recovery, mitigation, and financial assistance programs to local communities to begin.

My understanding is, NerdGov signed the emergency declaration on January 5, 2016, http://michigan.gov/deq/0,4561,7-135-3313_3675_73946-372653--,00.html

He has activated the SEOC, and things are now progressing with the aid of the Federal govt, as they should. No question it's taken way too long, but the means of fixing this with help of the Federal government have been done according to protocol.

http://michigan.gov/deq/0,4561,7-135-3313_3675_73946---,00.html

I have no dog in this fight, and I hope things get fixed soon, but I do work in emergency management in Michigan, and if she is saying the Governor has not requested help, shes flat out wrong.

I don't doubt you. I can't find the clip from 1/8/16, but this clip is from the 7th.

 

[Rove!]

I was responding to the incompetence part. There is no way it was gross incompetence. The whole process is standardized and requires third party testing

Well, it's either a case of a bunch of people screwing up horribly or a bunch of people deliberately deciding to poison an entire city's water supply without any dissenters raising a stink. I think the "incompetence" angle is more likely than the "evil" angle, but surely this is going to get investigated, so we'll eventually find out either way.

It doesn't have to be one or the other. It's more like a bunch people deliberately risking the potential to poison an entire city's water supply. A drunk driver typically doesn't intend to cause fatalities, but they willfully risk it.

 

[Slapdash]

I didn't know it was affecting you personally dirtyjay. I'm

Sorry about your family and I can see why you might be emotional. Still, using Nuremberg weakens your point; it makes you sound unhinged.

Get over yourself.

 

[dirtyjay]

Anyone still support Snyders punk ### now?

Michigan officials changed a Flint lead report to avoid federal actionhttp://michiganradio.org/post/michigan-officials-changed-flint-lead-report-avoid-federal-action#stream/0

 

[timschochet]

Anyone still support Snyders punk ### now?

Michigan officials changed a Flint lead report to avoid federal actionhttp://michiganradio.org/post/michigan-officials-changed-flint-lead-report-avoid-federal-action#stream/0

Damn, that's bad. If it's true it's really really bad.

 

[dirtyjay]

Anyone still support Snyders punk ### now?

Michigan officials changed a Flint lead report to avoid federal actionhttp://michiganradio.org/post/michigan-officials-changed-flint-lead-report-avoid-federal-action#stream/0

Damn, that's bad. If it's true it's really really bad.

The altered report is at the bottom of the link, so it is very true.

This guy has forged records, put a whole city in harms way and lied about all of it.

How is this guy still in office?

 

[Rove!]

Anyone still support Snyders punk ### now?

Michigan officials changed a Flint lead report to avoid federal action

http://michiganradio.org/post/michigan-officials-changed-flint-lead-report-avoid-federal-action#stream/0

Damn, that's bad. If it's true it's really really bad.

The altered report is at the bottom of the link, so it is very true.

This guy has forged records, put a whole city in harms way and lied about all of it.

How is this guy still in office?

They need to find out who at the DEQ dropped the samples and why. The news about dropping the samples is not new.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Sam looking for an "out" with the Republican governor.

 

[Rove!]

Sam looking for an "out" with the Republican governor.

Wrong again....The DEQ could very well have been pressured by the Governor to have a successful test result. Just trying to get to the bottom of it

 

[Rove!]

Another good article here with a lot of good detail

http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/story/news/local/michigan/2015/10/11/many-missed-opportunities-flints-water-crisis/73728826/

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Sam looking for an "out" with the Republican governor.

Wrong again....The DEQ could very well have been pressured by the Governor to have a successful test result. Just trying to get to the bottom of it

Link to where I was wrong even once? Maybe you should bump the Benghazi thread some more you $3 ######.

 

[Lutherman2112]

Between this and the Bundy associated threads...pretty amazing how small government types are reacting.

 

[Rove!]

Sam looking for an "out" with the Republican governor.

Wrong again....The DEQ could very well have been pressured by the Governor to have a successful test result. Just trying to get to the bottom of it

Link to where I was wrong even once? Maybe you should bump the Benghazi thread some more you $3 ######.

Your post when you said I was looking for an "out" for starters...not going to waste time digging through all of your other drivel...