Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch (3 Viewers)

[timschochet]

I also want to compliment jon because he made an outstanding point today, one that I haven't really heard anywhere else: why would Martin scream? As jon points out, whoever is screaming sounds like they are in agony. Why would Martin be in agony BEFORE the gun shot? I think this fact has to make us question anyone who claims that it was Martin screaming.

On the other hand, I have trouble believing that Zimmerman was screaming, because according to him he's being pounded- that's a full bodied long scream- it doesn't sound like he's out of breath, and he should be out of breath, (or stunned if he's being punched in the face.)

I have to say that, despite reading about this situation for over a year now, I just don't have a feel for what exactly happened here. I have this weird suspicion that what exactly went down is quite removed from what any of us have speculated thus far...

 

[jamny]

Just to clarify: Zimmerman does NOT admit to starting the fight in this case. Christo and jon seem to be arguing that even if Zimmerman DID admit to starting the fight, he could still be acquitted for self-defense. I find that highly implausible, even if it is legal, and that's why I asked for an example.

I think they are saying it doesn't matter who started the fight so there is no need to even touch it with their defense. They just need to focus on proving that Zimmerman was afraid for his life.

The prosecution can focus all they want on what some girl thinks she did or did not hear on the phone. The defense will focus on the fight itself. If they can create enough of a picture of Martin beating up zimmerman, it wont matter what the girl said.

Thanks for getting to the core of things. But I don't agree with you. I believe that if the jury comes to believe that Zimmerman started the fight, then Zimmerman will be found guilty of manslaughter at least. The defense has to at least provide reasonable doubt that Zimmerman started the fight.

I'm pretty sure this can't happen. If he's not being charged with manslaughter, the jury can't come back and find him guilty of that. And the defense does not have to provide reasonable doubt that Zimmerman started the fight. According to the law, if Zimmerman feared for his life, regardless of whether he initiated the fight or not, using deadly force is legal. You may think the jury will decide otherwise, but if they do, the defense would have done their job; it's the jury who would have failed at theirs.

All that being said, I think the stand your ground law is stupid.

I think they can come back with the lesser charge of manslaughter

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

Christo, can you or anyone else provide an example of the following case?

1. A defendant is accused of murder.

2. The defendant claims self-defense.

3. The defendant admits to starting a fight with the victim, but explains that in the middle of the fight, the defendant feared for his life, and so killed the victim in self-defense.

4. The defendant was acquitted.

See, I get this is theoretically possible, and the law, but I'm pretty skeptical this sort of defense would ever fly with a jury.

It can happen, but normally the instigator had to have first retreated, or something happened to escalate the situation.

Like being knocked to the ground, jumped on and having your head slammed into the pavement?

Maybe. Punched in the face and hitting the ground with the back of your head is different than grabbing and slamming a head into the ground though. I just don't think losing a fist fight necessarily justifies deadly force.Murder 2 though? No. Manslaughter or negligence. Yes.

An all woman jury would see such an act as life threatening.

Possibly. I'm not sure how they got this jury either. All middle aged white women with more than half gun owners, right?Florida is a joke.

How so?

Stand your ground law, murder 2 charge, Rodney king jury, the Florida pan handle, Jacksonville jags, Tim tebow, bush v gore, Rubio, voting lines, etc

Many states have SYG. Proescutors throughout the nation overcharge all of the time. Rodney King was Cali. Tebow was a great college QB. I saw long lines at polling stations across the nation.

Now you're just arguing to argue.

 

[jamny]

I also want to compliment jon because he made an outstanding point today, one that I haven't really heard anywhere else: why would Martin scream? As jon points out, whoever is screaming sounds like they are in agony. Why would Martin be in agony BEFORE the gun shot? I think this fact has to make us question anyone who claims that it was Martin screaming.

On the other hand, I have trouble believing that Zimmerman was screaming, because according to him he's being pounded- that's a full bodied long scream- it doesn't sound like he's out of breath, and he should be out of breath, (or stunned if he's being punched in the face.)

I have to say that, despite reading about this situation for over a year now, I just don't have a feel for what exactly happened here. I have this weird suspicion that what exactly went down is quite removed from what any of us have speculated thus far...

That's why I asked about what kind of injuries Trayvon had. Seems to point more towards Zimmerman being the one screaming.

 

[Christo]

Christo, can you or anyone else provide an example of the following case?

1. A defendant is accused of murder.

2. The defendant claims self-defense.

3. The defendant admits to starting a fight with the victim, but explains that in the middle of the fight, the defendant feared for his life, and so killed the victim in self-defense.

4. The defendant was acquitted.

See, I get this is theoretically possible, and the law, but I'm pretty skeptical this sort of defense would ever fly with a jury.

It can happen, but normally the instigator had to have first retreated, or something happened to escalate the situation.

Like being knocked to the ground, jumped on and having your head slammed into the pavement?

Maybe. Punched in the face and hitting the ground with the back of your head is different than grabbing and slamming a head into the ground though. I just don't think losing a fist fight necessarily justifies deadly force.Murder 2 though? No. Manslaughter or negligence. Yes.

An all woman jury would see such an act as life threatening.

Possibly. I'm not sure how they got this jury either. All middle aged white women with more than half gun owners, right?Florida is a joke.

How so?

Stand your ground law, murder 2 charge, Rodney king jury, the Florida pan handle, Jacksonville jags, Tim tebow, bush v gore, Rubio, voting lines, etc

Many states have SYG. Proescutors throughout the nation overcharge all of the time. Rodney King was Cali. Tebow was a great college QB. I saw long lines at polling stations across the nation.

Now you're just arguing to argue.

You might as well have said "people suck".

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

The 2nd degree murder vs. manslaughter charge

someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I understand it to be like this:

At some point in the trial (I'm guessing before closing remarks but it might be after), Prosecution will state whether they will allow the jury to rule on 2nd degree murder or have the option to settle for manslaughter. It is up to the Defense to agree to his offer before the offer is presented to the jury (i.e. this all happens behind the scenes/sidebar with judge). If Defense allows the jury to rule for a lesser charge than the jury is presented with the two options when they go back to deliberate.

Now this is a double edged sword for the defense, if they only allow Murder 2, if the jury thinks Zimmerman is a little guilty but don't want to let him completely off I guess they may feel compelled to rule on Murder 2...

From what I understand there is no automatic lesser charge.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

Well, people do suck.

 

[pittstownkiller]

I just don't like the precedent being set that the shooter possessing a gun escalates the situation so that what he brought to the fight gives him cause to fear for his life when being in a fight with no other weapons. I do not think a reasonable person would fear for his life in a fight with a teenager. He will have to take the stand and say he was screaming for help, that he felt like he could lose consciousness, and say trayvon reached for his gun.

Exactly. The Zimmerman defenders seem to have no problem with this logic and it really confuses me.

How the hell would Zimmerman know if Martin was armed or not?

So anytime you're in a fight or there's an altercation, one can presume their opponent is armed and act accordingly?

I think if someone punches me in the face and knocks me to the ground that it is not unreasonable that I may fear for my physical well-being.

 

[jamny]

What's the estimate on how long this trial will last?

Obviously, with or without Zimmerman taking the stand.

 

[jamny]

I just don't like the precedent being set that the shooter possessing a gun escalates the situation so that what he brought to the fight gives him cause to fear for his life when being in a fight with no other weapons. I do not think a reasonable person would fear for his life in a fight with a teenager. He will have to take the stand and say he was screaming for help, that he felt like he could lose consciousness, and say trayvon reached for his gun.

Exactly. The Zimmerman defenders seem to have no problem with this logic and it really confuses me.

How the hell would Zimmerman know if Martin was armed or not?

So anytime you're in a fight or there's an altercation, one can presume their opponent is armed and act accordingly?

I think if someone punches me in the face and knocks me to the ground that it is not unreasonable that I may fear for my physical well-being.

Unfortunately, you shouldn't be able to shoot the guy. Maybe if he was grabbing a rock to bash your skull in...

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

I just don't like the precedent being set that the shooter possessing a gun escalates the situation so that what he brought to the fight gives him cause to fear for his life when being in a fight with no other weapons. I do not think a reasonable person would fear for his life in a fight with a teenager. He will have to take the stand and say he was screaming for help, that he felt like he could lose consciousness, and say trayvon reached for his gun.

Exactly. The Zimmerman defenders seem to have no problem with this logic and it really confuses me.

How the hell would Zimmerman know if Martin was armed or not?

So anytime you're in a fight or there's an altercation, one can presume their opponent is armed and act accordingly?

I think if someone punches me in the face and knocks me to the ground that it is not unreasonable that I may fear for my physical well-being.

This just sounds like a license to kill though. Pick a fight. Lose. Shoot him. ####ification of America. We complain about the youth not fighting anymore, and instead shooting each other, but this is ok?

 

[avoiding injuries]

The 2nd degree murder vs. manslaughter charge

someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I understand it to be like this:

At some point in the trial (I'm guessing before closing remarks but it might be after), Prosecution will state whether they will allow the jury to rule on 2nd degree murder or have the option to settle for manslaughter. It is up to the Defense to agree to his offer before the offer is presented to the jury (i.e. this all happens behind the scenes/sidebar with judge). If Defense allows the jury to rule for a lesser charge than the jury is presented with the two options when they go back to deliberate.

Now this is a double edged sword for the defense, if they only allow Murder 2, if the jury thinks Zimmerman is a little guilty but don't want to let him completely off I guess they may feel compelled to rule on Murder 2...

From what I understand there is no automatic lesser charge.

If this is true, I have no idea, the defense would be foolish to agree to it in this case. The prosecution would be admitting that they are not confident in proving their case so they are hoping to have a lesser charge stick.

 

[Joe McGee]

I don't understand why anyone would think that Trayvon would be screaming for help. He has no wounds on him other than his knuckles and the gun shot. Second, when someone is pointing a gun at you, you don't yell for help multiple times. That makes it more likely for the gun holder to shoot you or clock you over the head. it seems like Trayvon would be yelling don't shoot.

 

[Joe McGee]

Christo, can you or anyone else provide an example of the following case?

1. A defendant is accused of murder.

2. The defendant claims self-defense.

3. The defendant admits to starting a fight with the victim, but explains that in the middle of the fight, the defendant feared for his life, and so killed the victim in self-defense.

4. The defendant was acquitted.

See, I get this is theoretically possible, and the law, but I'm pretty skeptical this sort of defense would ever fly with a jury.

It can happen, but normally the instigator had to have first retreated, or something happened to escalate the situation.

Like being knocked to the ground, jumped on and having your head slammed into the pavement?

Maybe. Punched in the face and hitting the ground with the back of your head is different than grabbing and slamming a head into the ground though. I just don't think losing a fist fight necessarily justifies deadly force.Murder 2 though? No. Manslaughter or negligence. Yes.

An all woman jury would see such an act as life threatening.

Possibly. I'm not sure how they got this jury either. All middle aged white women with more than half gun owners, right?

Florida is a joke.

I heard on the radio that overall black people show up the least for jury duty and Hispanics have the second highest no-show rate. I don't like the composition of the jury either, but we can't make people show up for jury duty. Well, actually we can but we usually don't.

 

[jamny]

I just don't like the precedent being set that the shooter possessing a gun escalates the situation so that what he brought to the fight gives him cause to fear for his life when being in a fight with no other weapons. I do not think a reasonable person would fear for his life in a fight with a teenager. He will have to take the stand and say he was screaming for help, that he felt like he could lose consciousness, and say trayvon reached for his gun.

Exactly. The Zimmerman defenders seem to have no problem with this logic and it really confuses me.

How the hell would Zimmerman know if Martin was armed or not?

So anytime you're in a fight or there's an altercation, one can presume their opponent is armed and act accordingly?

I think if someone punches me in the face and knocks me to the ground that it is not unreasonable that I may fear for my physical well-being.

This just sounds like a license to kill though. Pick a fight. Lose. Shoot him. ####ification of America. We complain about the youth not fighting anymore, and instead shooting each other, but this is ok?

Exactly. Just because you're getting your ### kicked doesn't give you the right to shoot someone. Nothing so far indicates second degree, I think he's probably guilty of manslaughter, but that silly "stand your ground" rule will probably get him off.

 

[pantherclub]

I don't understand why anyone would think that t would be screaming for help. He has no wounds on him other than his knuckles and the gun shot. Second, when someone is pointing a gun at you, you don't yell for help multiple times. That makes it more likely for the gun holder to shoot you or clock you over the head. it seems like Trayvon would be yelling don't shoot.

you don't know what you would do in that situation

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

btw for Tim or anyone else, please don't watch or listen to any experts until at least after you have watched the court proceedings yourself - it makes a huge difference what you can see with your own eyes and ears vs. whatever outlet you choose from the MSM to get your (usually) biased information, regardless of which side of the courtroom you sit.

Sorry in the real world it is fiscal year end and there is no opportunity for such things. Seems to me from what I have read that the prosecution has at least shown enough for this trial to not "be a joke". I still don't think they can win a Murder 2 conviction as the hurdle foe self defense seems low in this case. From a perspective formed only from reading bias sources it seems to me that it may be time for both sides to consider a plea deal. (Doubt it though due to the high profile nature.)

 

[pittstownkiller]

I just don't like the precedent being set that the shooter possessing a gun escalates the situation so that what he brought to the fight gives him cause to fear for his life when being in a fight with no other weapons. I do not think a reasonable person would fear for his life in a fight with a teenager. He will have to take the stand and say he was screaming for help, that he felt like he could lose consciousness, and say trayvon reached for his gun.

Exactly. The Zimmerman defenders seem to have no problem with this logic and it really confuses me.

How the hell would Zimmerman know if Martin was armed or not?

So anytime you're in a fight or there's an altercation, one can presume their opponent is armed and act accordingly?

I think if someone punches me in the face and knocks me to the ground that it is not unreasonable that I may fear for my physical well-being.

This just sounds like a license to kill though. Pick a fight. Lose. Shoot him. ####ification of America. We complain about the youth not fighting anymore, and instead shooting each other, but this is ok?

This. Let me go punch someone and let them get a few good licks in and then pull out my gun and shoot them. AH should've gone down to Florida and killed Lloyd.

I think this is too simplistic Bucky. First, you have to assume that Z wanted to kill "someone"; then you have to believe that to do this he would antagonize someone enough to punch him while still maintaining superiority in the fight - of course this all takes place after you have called 911 to have them send a cop. Seems very far-fetched to me.

 

[Joe McGee]

I don't understand why anyone would think that t would be screaming for help. He has no wounds on him other than his knuckles and the gun shot. Second, when someone is pointing a gun at you, you don't yell for help multiple times. That makes it more likely for the gun holder to shoot you or clock you over the head. it seems like Trayvon would be yelling don't shoot.

you don't know what you would do in that situation

No, but I've never ever heard anyone yell for help when they have a gun pointed at them. I doubt you have either. That part doesn't make sense.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

I don't understand why anyone would think that t would be screaming for help. He has no wounds on him other than his knuckles and the gun shot. Second, when someone is pointing a gun at you, you don't yell for help multiple times. That makes it more likely for the gun holder to shoot you or clock you over the head. it seems like Trayvon would be yelling don't shoot.

you don't know what you would do in that situation

No, but I've never ever heard anyone yell for help when they have a gun pointed at them. I doubt you have either. That part doesn't make sense.

who said the gun was actually pointed at trey? Why is it not plausible that zimm went for his gun and trey saw him and then he was struggling with zimm and screaming in fear. He would have to know if zimm gets the gun out hes a goner. They were already in close proximity because of the struggle,so he couldnt just get up and out run a bullet..

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

I don't understand why anyone would think that t would be screaming for help. He has no wounds on him other than his knuckles and the gun shot. Second, when someone is pointing a gun at you, you don't yell for help multiple times. That makes it more likely for the gun holder to shoot you or clock you over the head. it seems like Trayvon would be yelling don't shoot.

you don't know what you would do in that situation

No, but I've never ever heard anyone yell for help when they have a gun pointed at them. I doubt you have either. That part doesn't make sense.

who said the gun was actually pointed at trey? Why is it not plausible that zimm went for his gun and trey saw him and then he was struggling with zimm and screaming in fear. He would have to know if zimm gets the gun out hes a goner. They were already in close proximity because of the struggle,so he couldnt just get up and out run a bullet..

What does the forensic evidence say about this narrative you just created? you know the lack of dna on the gun or holster that you harped on for half of this thread? Now you want to say there actually was a struggle for the gun?

 

[Joe McGee]

I don't understand why anyone would think that t would be screaming for help. He has no wounds on him other than his knuckles and the gun shot. Second, when someone is pointing a gun at you, you don't yell for help multiple times. That makes it more likely for the gun holder to shoot you or clock you over the head. it seems like Trayvon would be yelling don't shoot.

you don't know what you would do in that situation

No, but I've never ever heard anyone yell for help when they have a gun pointed at them. I doubt you have either. That part doesn't make sense.

who said the gun was actually pointed at trey? Why is it not plausible that zimm went for his gun and trey saw him and then he was struggling with zimm and screaming in fear. He would have to know if zimm gets the gun out hes a goner. They were already in close proximity because of the struggle,so he couldnt just get up and out run a bullet..

Where do Zimmerman's head injuries come from in this scenario you are proposing?

 

[pittstownkiller]

Nancy Grace is insufferable.

 

[pittstownkiller]

I don't understand why anyone would think that t would be screaming for help. He has no wounds on him other than his knuckles and the gun shot. Second, when someone is pointing a gun at you, you don't yell for help multiple times. That makes it more likely for the gun holder to shoot you or clock you over the head. it seems like Trayvon would be yelling don't shoot.

you don't know what you would do in that situation

No, but I've never ever heard anyone yell for help when they have a gun pointed at them. I doubt you have either. That part doesn't make sense.

who said the gun was actually pointed at trey? Why is it not plausible that zimm went for his gun and trey saw him and then he was struggling with zimm and screaming in fear. He would have to know if zimm gets the gun out hes a goner. They were already in close proximity because of the struggle,so he couldnt just get up and out run a bullet..

Where do Zimmerman's head injuries come from in this scenario you are proposing?

Obviously Z's head burst from trying to figure out how to commit the "perfect" murder.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

I don't understand why anyone would think that t would be screaming for help. He has no wounds on him other than his knuckles and the gun shot. Second, when someone is pointing a gun at you, you don't yell for help multiple times. That makes it more likely for the gun holder to shoot you or clock you over the head. it seems like Trayvon would be yelling don't shoot.

you don't know what you would do in that situation

No, but I've never ever heard anyone yell for help when they have a gun pointed at them. I doubt you have either. That part doesn't make sense.

who said the gun was actually pointed at trey? Why is it not plausible that zimm went for his gun and trey saw him and then he was struggling with zimm and screaming in fear. He would have to know if zimm gets the gun out hes a goner. They were already in close proximity because of the struggle,so he couldnt just get up and out run a bullet..

Where do Zimmerman's head injuries come from in this scenario you are proposing?

during the initial struggle...the injuries werent that bad. A bloody nose and 2 small cuts on the back of zimms head that didnt even need stitches. He had no concussion .Trey had 1 small abrasion on his finger.This was more of a wrestling match ,like most street fights are,than an MMA beat down.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

I don't understand why anyone would think that t would be screaming for help. He has no wounds on him other than his knuckles and the gun shot. Second, when someone is pointing a gun at you, you don't yell for help multiple times. That makes it more likely for the gun holder to shoot you or clock you over the head. it seems like Trayvon would be yelling don't shoot.

you don't know what you would do in that situation

No, but I've never ever heard anyone yell for help when they have a gun pointed at them. I doubt you have either. That part doesn't make sense.

who said the gun was actually pointed at trey? Why is it not plausible that zimm went for his gun and trey saw him and then he was struggling with zimm and screaming in fear. He would have to know if zimm gets the gun out hes a goner. They were already in close proximity because of the struggle,so he couldnt just get up and out run a bullet..

What does the forensic evidence say about this narrative you just created? you know the lack of dna on the gun or holster that you harped on for half of this thread? Now you want to say there actually was a struggle for the gun?

i never said trey went for the gun.I think he was just trying to keep zimmy from getting the gun free from its holster...why is that so hard to believe. If im fighting someone and hes got a gun on his personim going to do anything i can to not let him shoot me.He could only shoot me if he gets his gun free.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

I don't understand why anyone would think that t would be screaming for help. He has no wounds on him other than his knuckles and the gun shot. Second, when someone is pointing a gun at you, you don't yell for help multiple times. That makes it more likely for the gun holder to shoot you or clock you over the head. it seems like Trayvon would be yelling don't shoot.

you don't know what you would do in that situation

No, but I've never ever heard anyone yell for help when they have a gun pointed at them. I doubt you have either. That part doesn't make sense.

who said the gun was actually pointed at trey? Why is it not plausible that zimm went for his gun and trey saw him and then he was struggling with zimm and screaming in fear. He would have to know if zimm gets the gun out hes a goner. They were already in close proximity because of the struggle,so he couldnt just get up and out run a bullet..

What does the forensic evidence say about this narrative you just created? you know the lack of dna on the gun or holster that you harped on for half of this thread? Now you want to say there actually was a struggle for the gun?

i never said trey went for the gun.I think he was just trying to keep zimmy from getting the gun free from its holster...why is that so hard to believe. If im fighting someone and hes got a gun on his personim going to do anything i can to not let him shoot me.He could only shoot me if he gets his gun free.

what's a higher priority reaching for the gun and fighting him or repeatedly screaming for help? You going to do both?? Scream for a minute straight while reaching for the gun while you are on top of the guy?

Just stop.

better yet, you assault this guy, and then see the gun and you think this gives you reason to scream for help while you fight this man for the gun he is trying to get at to protect himself from you which is obvious with the injuries he sustained?

 

[17seconds]

This thing is totally over. The State should just drop all charges, just like the end of "My Cousin Vinny."

Interesting that you and jon mx and others seem to believe this. I'm watching a HLN analysis right now, and most of the attorneys there believe that the prosecution is winning big time. They find Rachel's essential testimony credible (as do I) and they think that the jury can't stand the defense attorney. They all seem to believe that Zimmerman is going to have to testify or he is going down.Who knows?

On CNN they were reporting the body language of the jury toward the witness was really really bad. They were disgusted by her attitude.

 

[Lutherman2112]

I don't understand why anyone would think that t would be screaming for help. He has no wounds on him other than his knuckles and the gun shot. Second, when someone is pointing a gun at you, you don't yell for help multiple times. That makes it more likely for the gun holder to shoot you or clock you over the head. it seems like Trayvon would be yelling don't shoot.

you don't know what you would do in that situation

No, but I've never ever heard anyone yell for help when they have a gun pointed at them. I doubt you have either. That part doesn't make sense.

who said the gun was actually pointed at trey? Why is it not plausible that zimm went for his gun and trey saw him and then he was struggling with zimm and screaming in fear. He would have to know if zimm gets the gun out hes a goner. They were already in close proximity because of the struggle,so he couldnt just get up and out run a bullet..

Where do Zimmerman's head injuries come from in this scenario you are proposing?

Firing one of the lightest weight 9mm with single, dominant hand (left) and recoil of firearm.

Superficial wounds on nose look like scraps from just about the size of Kel_Tec 9.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

I don't understand why anyone would think that t would be screaming for help. He has no wounds on him other than his knuckles and the gun shot. Second, when someone is pointing a gun at you, you don't yell for help multiple times. That makes it more likely for the gun holder to shoot you or clock you over the head. it seems like Trayvon would be yelling don't shoot.

you don't know what you would do in that situation

No, but I've never ever heard anyone yell for help when they have a gun pointed at them. I doubt you have either. That part doesn't make sense.

who said the gun was actually pointed at trey? Why is it not plausible that zimm went for his gun and trey saw him and then he was struggling with zimm and screaming in fear. He would have to know if zimm gets the gun out hes a goner. They were already in close proximity because of the struggle,so he couldnt just get up and out run a bullet..

What does the forensic evidence say about this narrative you just created? you know the lack of dna on the gun or holster that you harped on for half of this thread? Now you want to say there actually was a struggle for the gun?

i never said trey went for the gun.I think he was just trying to keep zimmy from getting the gun free from its holster...why is that so hard to believe. If im fighting someone and hes got a gun on his personim going to do anything i can to not let him shoot me.He could only shoot me if he gets his gun free.

what's a higher priority reaching for the gun and fighting him or repeatedly screaming for help? You going to do both?? Scream for a minute straight while reaching for the gun while you are on top of the guy?

Just stop.

better yet, you assault this guy, and then see the gun and you think this gives you reason to scream for help while you fight this man for the gun he is trying to get at to protect himself from you which is obvious with the injuries he sustained?

whatever...im better off talking to a glass of water than you. This whole event was spontaneous ,not planned...people react differently under duress...anyone can monday QB this after the fact.. Zimmermans story doesnt add up so ''something'' happened that zimm didnt mention. Believe what you want...i`ll just sit back and wait for my scenario to come up during the trial.

 

[pittstownkiller]

On HLN, as an analyst of the trial, the host of VH1's "hit the floor" Jonathan McDaniel; you should be embarrassed Tim looking here for your commentary.

 

[Joe McGee]

On HLN, as an analyst of the trial, the host of VH1's "hit the floor" Jonathan McDaniel; you should be embarrassed Tim looking here for your commentary.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

On HLN, as an analyst of the trial, the host of VH1's "hit the floor" Jonathan McDaniel; you should be embarrassed Tim looking here for your commentary.

Never heard of him, I had to look him up.

Jonathan McDaniel (born May 17, 1985 in Long Beach, California), known as Lil' J, is an American actor and rapper. He is best known for his role as Devon Carter (Raven's boyfriend) on the hit Disney Channel show That's So Raven.

 

[Joe McGee]

CNN is calling Rachel Jeantel a star. What are they smoking over there?

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/27/opinion/zimmerman-jeantel/index.html?hpt=hp_inthenews

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

CNN is calling Rachel Jeantel a star. What are they smoking over there?

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/27/opinion/zimmerman-jeantel/index.html?hpt=hp_inthenews

Editor's note: Jason Johnson is an HLN contributor

 

[timschochet]

On HLN, as an analyst of the trial, the host of VH1's "hit the floor" Jonathan McDaniel; you should be embarrassed Tim looking here for your commentary.

I missed him (changed the channel, sorry.) What did he say?

 

[Ballstein]

CNN is calling Rachel Jeantel a star. What are they smoking over there?

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/27/opinion/zimmerman-jeantel/index.html?hpt=hp_inthenews

is that why cnn keeps running Cracker Barrel comercials?

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

On HLN, as an analyst of the trial, the host of VH1's "hit the floor" Jonathan McDaniel; you should be embarrassed Tim looking here for your commentary.

I missed him (changed the channel, sorry.) What did he say?

I think it is less about what he said and more about him being a rapper, an actor on some VH1 show and now a "trial analyst" on HLN.

 

[timschochet]

On HLN, as an analyst of the trial, the host of VH1's "hit the floor" Jonathan McDaniel; you should be embarrassed Tim looking here for your commentary.

I missed him (changed the channel, sorry.) What did he say?

I think it is less about what he said and more about him being a rapper, an actor on some VH1 show and now a "trial analyst" on HLN.

The people I watched earlier were all described as trial attorneys.

 

[drummer]

On HLN, as an analyst of the trial, the host of VH1's "hit the floor" Jonathan McDaniel; you should be embarrassed Tim looking here for your commentary.

I missed him (changed the channel, sorry.) What did he say?

I think it is less about what he said and more about him being a rapper, an actor on some VH1 show and now a "trial analyst" on HLN.

The people I watched earlier were all described as trial attorneys.

You do remember Glenn Beck being an ex-HLN employee, don't you?

 

[pittstownkiller]

On HLN, as an analyst of the trial, the host of VH1's "hit the floor" Jonathan McDaniel; you should be embarrassed Tim looking here for your commentary.

I missed him (changed the channel, sorry.) What did he say?

I think it is less about what he said and more about him being a rapper, an actor on some VH1 show and now a "trial analyst" on HLN.

The people I watched earlier were all described as trial attorneys.

You do remember Glenn Beck being an ex-HLN employee, don't you?

Yes, I am sure that is why Tim is watching it.

 

[pittstownkiller]

On HLN, as an analyst of the trial, the host of VH1's "hit the floor" Jonathan McDaniel; you should be embarrassed Tim looking here for your commentary.

I missed him (changed the channel, sorry.) What did he say?

I think it is less about what he said and more about him being a rapper, an actor on some VH1 show and now a "trial analyst" on HLN.

The people I watched earlier were all described as trial attorneys.

Not if you were watching watching when you typed your previous post; there were a few show hosts on there.

 

[pittstownkiller]

On HLN, as an analyst of the trial, the host of VH1's "hit the floor" Jonathan McDaniel; you should be embarrassed Tim looking here for your commentary.

I missed him (changed the channel, sorry.) What did he say?

Surprisingly he was critical of DeeDee, where he was taken to task, then he got in line and made an inane point; sound familiar?

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Christo is going to say that even if he started the fight he could still end up fearing for his life ...but id say that treyvon was also in fear of his life at the very same time...the gun was the difference maker.

That doesn't exclude Zimmerman from using self defense..

 

[Carolina Hustler]

i never said it did...but if im packing a gun im going to have that ace in my pocket vs a guy whos only weapons are his hands.

The purpose for carrying a gun is self defense.. It's legal to carry a gun for self defense.. It appears he used it in self defense.. Unless the prosecution can prove he brought a gun with him intent to kill someone, you're argument is going nowhere.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

I just don't like the precedent being set that the shooter possessing a gun escalates the situation so that what he brought to the fight gives him cause to fear for his life when being in a fight with no other weapons. I do not think a reasonable person would fear for his life in a fight with a teenager. He will have to take the stand and say he was screaming for help, that he felt like he could lose consciousness, and say trayvon reached for his gun.

Exactly. The Zimmerman defenders seem to have no problem with this logic and it really confuses me.

If Trayvon was going to stab Z with his own pencil, is Z at fault for carrying a pencil? Your argument is ridiculous.. It's not about the item, it's about the action..

 

[Carolina Hustler]

I don't understand why anyone would think that t would be screaming for help. He has no wounds on him other than his knuckles and the gun shot. Second, when someone is pointing a gun at you, you don't yell for help multiple times. That makes it more likely for the gun holder to shoot you or clock you over the head. it seems like Trayvon would be yelling don't shoot.

you don't know what you would do in that situation

No, but I've never ever heard anyone yell for help when they have a gun pointed at them. I doubt you have either. That part doesn't make sense.

who said the gun was actually pointed at trey? Why is it not plausible that zimm went for his gun and trey saw him and then he was struggling with zimm and screaming in fear. He would have to know if zimm gets the gun out hes a goner. They were already in close proximity because of the struggle,so he couldnt just get up and out run a bullet..

Where do Zimmerman's head injuries come from in this scenario you are proposing?

during the initial struggle...the injuries werent that bad. A bloody nose and 2 small cuts on the back of zimms head that didnt even need stitches. He had no concussion .Trey had 1 small abrasion on his finger.This was more of a wrestling match ,like most street fights are,than an MMA beat down.

Most street fights I've seen didn't draw blood.. Most MMA fights do..

 

[Carolina Hustler]

I don't understand why anyone would think that t would be screaming for help. He has no wounds on him other than his knuckles and the gun shot. Second, when someone is pointing a gun at you, you don't yell for help multiple times. That makes it more likely for the gun holder to shoot you or clock you over the head. it seems like Trayvon would be yelling don't shoot.

you don't know what you would do in that situation

No, but I've never ever heard anyone yell for help when they have a gun pointed at them. I doubt you have either. That part doesn't make sense.

who said the gun was actually pointed at trey? Why is it not plausible that zimm went for his gun and trey saw him and then he was struggling with zimm and screaming in fear. He would have to know if zimm gets the gun out hes a goner. They were already in close proximity because of the struggle,so he couldnt just get up and out run a bullet..

Where do Zimmerman's head injuries come from in this scenario you are proposing?

Firing one of the lightest weight 9mm with single, dominant hand (left) and recoil of firearm.

Superficial wounds on nose look like scraps from just about the size of Kel_Tec 9.

What position would they have had to be in for Zimmerman to have been holding the gun so close to his nose and shoot Trayvon in the chest? You're making the defenses argument for them.. You think this is a clever opinion, but yet the prosecution hasn't tried to use this argument.. Why do you think that is?

 

[The Commish]

I think murder 2 was a stretch of a charge. They'd have him on something lesser as I don't buy the self defense, but I think there's an intent issue.

Think I'm in this boat right now as well.

 

[The Commish]

State's most damaging witness up there

I am not sure how a prolonged series of yells for help, bold well for the prosecution. She identifies it as one voice the whole time. If Zimmerman planned on killing Martin, he would just pull out the gun and fire. Martin would only get off a view yells for help before he is shot dead. I am having a hard time figuring out why anyone believes this could have been Martin screaming for so long. It almost had to be Zimmerman on the ground getting his ### kicked. The yelps to helps even verifies the story of his mouth being covered. Seems like a slam dunk witness who helps the defense.

Heh.

There appears to be a mix up in the talking points memo that was sent out today.

wut?

He must have quoted that before reading further and seeing your explanation.Still no dog in the fight...lol

My only dog in this fight is mocking all those that think he's innocent or guilty already, so my "no dog in the fight" comment was incorrect. It happens.

He is innocent until proven guilty. Or you don't believe in that? So far Selma is the only witness who even remotely supports a murder charge. And BTW, you are clearly in the Martin camp.

Oh god....gonna be one of THOSE days huh? He's on trial. At the moment, I think the murder 2 charge is a stretch. That may or may not change. I don't know if he's innocent or guilty at this point and have made no defense one way or the other. If that puts me in the Martin camp, you have a VERY lazy and thoughtless definition of "martin camp".