Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch (1 Viewer)

[jon_mx]

Hell of a guy!

By KYLE HIGHTOWER,

Associated Press

ORLANDO, Fla. (AP) — George Zimmerman helped rescue four people from an overturned vehicle last week, just days after he was cleared of all charges in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, officials said Monday.

Seminole County Sheriff's spokeswoman Kim Cannaday said in a statement that deputies responding to the wreck in Sanford — the Orlando suburb where Martin was shot — found Zimmerman and another man had already helped a couple and their two children out of the flipped SUV. They were not hurt.

The sheriff's office statement said Zimmerman spoke with a deputy at the scene and then left. He did not see the crash happen.

This is believed to be the first time Zimmerman has been seen publicly since his acquittal on a second-degree murder charge in the 17-year-old Martin's February 2012 death. Zimmerman's parents and his attorneys have said in interviews since the verdict that they fear for his safety because of those who may not agree with it.

A message left at the office of Zimmerman attorney Mark O'Mara was not immediately returned Monday.

The acquittal prompted rallies nationwide in the days afterward calling for a civil rights probe and federal charges against Zimmerman.

It also led to a sit-in at Florida Gov. Rick Scott's office demanding that legislators repeal the state's stand-your-ground self-defense law. The law, passed in 2005, generally eliminated a person's duty to retreat in the face of a serious physical threat. At least 21 states have a self-defense law similar to that in Florida.

Martin's shooting also started debate across the U.S. over racial profiling, self-defense and equal justice. Protesters nationwide lashed out against police in Sanford, as it took 44 days for Zimmerman to be arrested. Many, including Martin's parents, said Zimmerman had racially profiled the unarmed black teen. Zimmerman identifies himself as Hispanic.

Six anonymous female jurors considered nearly three weeks of often wildly conflicting testimony over who was the aggressor on the rainy night Martin was shot while walking through the gated townhouse community where he was staying and where Zimmerman lived.

The police was quoted as saying, 'we don't need you to do that.'

 

[The Commish]

so you're suggesting that he's just telling people they should look at things from the AA point of view but he's not doing that himself? I'm confused, but again....I didn't take from his comments what you did. And again, I don't really care what he's saying at this point. I do find the entertaining every time he opens his mouth. What's gotten even better is the increased irony of those talking about prejudice and how others shouldn't be approaching things that way, yet those same people have already determined what Obama said/meant before he spoke the words. So I've got that going for me.

I pointing out that he is pandering to the AA's predudism of Martin as being an appropriate response to the AA's experience and history of being vicitms of predudism.

ETA: Genuine question...do you consider yourself an "activist" against Obama?

I'm an activist against almost anyone with a (D) or an ® after their name. Most everyone who has gotten anywhere in either party has done so because of the support of very corrupt people.

And how much of your latter comment influences the former?

Given I had no issue with Obama's opinions on the Martin/Zimmerman case UNTIL he said what he said on Friday, in this case none. I was intentionally ignoring the whole issue because I felt it was just media driven drama motivated by profit by the media. For him to do what he did on Friday justified the societal prison Zimmerman is going to live in from now on. That's not a political or media issue. It's a #### move, and one a president shouldn't ever do to any citizen.

So you had no problem with his comments prior to trial? Really? If this got under your skin this much, I'm not sure how you were remotely close to ok with his statements early on.

None! If you can find a post I made about Martin/Zimmerman prior to the trial, please show it to me. If I did, it was so meaningless to me I don't even recall it. I don't recall ever saying anything about Martin/Zimmerman until last week, and I'm pretty sure it was post-Obama's Friday speech that I made my first comment at all on the subject.

I was "remotely okay" because the whole issue was nothing but a local news story overblown by the national media for the benefit of profit that comes from drama on the news. It was complete non-news story to me. I ignored it just like I ignore my local TV station that makes what happens on "American Idol" into news. It's not news. Whenever I saw Martin/Zimmerman stuff on the news, I changed the channel, just like I do when the news starts covering American Idol. It's a waste of my time.

But for the president to stir the pot post verdict and seal Zimmerman's societal prison is sickening to me. To me THAT is news, given it's something a president should NOT do... EVER!!!!

I don't care enough to go hunting for quotes and I am not suggesting that you are lying. I'm just completely baffled. These comments were nothing compared to the pre-trial comments. I'm still a bit confused with your hyperbole though. You understand that society is going to do what it does regardless of what comes from a legal case right? Zimmerman's "societal prison" was sealed the day he shot an unarmed kid whether you like it or not. Obama's comments would be lock number 1,000,001 on Zimmerman's cell.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Hell of a guy!

By KYLE HIGHTOWER,

Associated Press

ORLANDO, Fla. (AP) — George Zimmerman helped rescue four people from an overturned vehicle last week, just days after he was cleared of all charges in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, officials said Monday.

Seminole County Sheriff's spokeswoman Kim Cannaday said in a statement that deputies responding to the wreck in Sanford — the Orlando suburb where Martin was shot — found Zimmerman and another man had already helped a couple and their two children out of the flipped SUV. They were not hurt.

The sheriff's office statement said Zimmerman spoke with a deputy at the scene and then left. He did not see the crash happen.

This is believed to be the first time Zimmerman has been seen publicly since his acquittal on a second-degree murder charge in the 17-year-old Martin's February 2012 death. Zimmerman's parents and his attorneys have said in interviews since the verdict that they fear for his safety because of those who may not agree with it.

A message left at the office of Zimmerman attorney Mark O'Mara was not immediately returned Monday.

The acquittal prompted rallies nationwide in the days afterward calling for a civil rights probe and federal charges against Zimmerman.

It also led to a sit-in at Florida Gov. Rick Scott's office demanding that legislators repeal the state's stand-your-ground self-defense law. The law, passed in 2005, generally eliminated a person's duty to retreat in the face of a serious physical threat. At least 21 states have a self-defense law similar to that in Florida.

Martin's shooting also started debate across the U.S. over racial profiling, self-defense and equal justice. Protesters nationwide lashed out against police in Sanford, as it took 44 days for Zimmerman to be arrested. Many, including Martin's parents, said Zimmerman had racially profiled the unarmed black teen. Zimmerman identifies himself as Hispanic.

Six anonymous female jurors considered nearly three weeks of often wildly conflicting testimony over who was the aggressor on the rainy night Martin was shot while walking through the gated townhouse community where he was staying and where Zimmerman lived.

He's just a racist with a heart of gold.

Basically that would be what the DOJ would have to say if they brought civil rights charges against him.

http://www.wjla.com/articles/2012/05/zimmerman-publicly-accused-sanford-police-of-corruption-in-2011-76322.html

George Zimmerman accused the Sanford police department of corruption more than a year before he shot Trayvon Martin, saying at a public forum the agency covered up the beating of a black homeless man by the son of a white officer.

 

[Politician Spock]

so you're suggesting that he's just telling people they should look at things from the AA point of view but he's not doing that himself? I'm confused, but again....I didn't take from his comments what you did. And again, I don't really care what he's saying at this point. I do find the entertaining every time he opens his mouth. What's gotten even better is the increased irony of those talking about prejudice and how others shouldn't be approaching things that way, yet those same people have already determined what Obama said/meant before he spoke the words. So I've got that going for me.

I pointing out that he is pandering to the AA's predudism of Martin as being an appropriate response to the AA's experience and history of being vicitms of predudism.

ETA: Genuine question...do you consider yourself an "activist" against Obama?

I'm an activist against almost anyone with a (D) or an ® after their name. Most everyone who has gotten anywhere in either party has done so because of the support of very corrupt people.

And how much of your latter comment influences the former?

Given I had no issue with Obama's opinions on the Martin/Zimmerman case UNTIL he said what he said on Friday, in this case none. I was intentionally ignoring the whole issue because I felt it was just media driven drama motivated by profit by the media. For him to do what he did on Friday justified the societal prison Zimmerman is going to live in from now on. That's not a political or media issue. It's a #### move, and one a president shouldn't ever do to any citizen.

So you had no problem with his comments prior to trial? Really? If this got under your skin this much, I'm not sure how you were remotely close to ok with his statements early on.

None! If you can find a post I made about Martin/Zimmerman prior to the trial, please show it to me. If I did, it was so meaningless to me I don't even recall it. I don't recall ever saying anything about Martin/Zimmerman until last week, and I'm pretty sure it was post-Obama's Friday speech that I made my first comment at all on the subject.

I was "remotely okay" because the whole issue was nothing but a local news story overblown by the national media for the benefit of profit that comes from drama on the news. It was complete non-news story to me. I ignored it just like I ignore my local TV station that makes what happens on "American Idol" into news. It's not news. Whenever I saw Martin/Zimmerman stuff on the news, I changed the channel, just like I do when the news starts covering American Idol. It's a waste of my time.

But for the president to stir the pot post verdict and seal Zimmerman's societal prison is sickening to me. To me THAT is news, given it's something a president should NOT do... EVER!!!!

I don't care enough to go hunting for quotes and I am not suggesting that you are lying. I'm just completely baffled. These comments were nothing compared to the pre-trial comments. I'm still a bit confused with your hyperbole though. You understand that society is going to do what it does regardless of what comes from a legal case right? Zimmerman's "societal prison" was sealed the day he shot an unarmed kid whether you like it or not. Obama's comments would be lock number 1,000,001 on Zimmerman's cell.

Those who will create Zimmerman's societal prison just got a "thumbs up" from Obama on Friday. I don't see how you can possibly deny that. But yet you do. If you can't see something that obvious, you're not going to understand my point of view... which ironically is what you have occused me of regarding the AA community's point of view, which I fully believe are victims of the system.

 

[Rayderr]

so you're suggesting that he's just telling people they should look at things from the AA point of view but he's not doing that himself? I'm confused, but again....I didn't take from his comments what you did. And again, I don't really care what he's saying at this point. I do find the entertaining every time he opens his mouth. What's gotten even better is the increased irony of those talking about prejudice and how others shouldn't be approaching things that way, yet those same people have already determined what Obama said/meant before he spoke the words. So I've got that going for me.

I pointing out that he is pandering to the AA's predudism of Martin as being an appropriate response to the AA's experience and history of being vicitms of predudism.

ETA: Genuine question...do you consider yourself an "activist" against Obama?

I'm an activist against almost anyone with a (D) or an ® after their name. Most everyone who has gotten anywhere in either party has done so because of the support of very corrupt people.

And how much of your latter comment influences the former?

Given I had no issue with Obama's opinions on the Martin/Zimmerman case UNTIL he said what he said on Friday, in this case none. I was intentionally ignoring the whole issue because I felt it was just media driven drama motivated by profit by the media. For him to do what he did on Friday justified the societal prison Zimmerman is going to live in from now on. That's not a political or media issue. It's a #### move, and one a president shouldn't ever do to any citizen.

So you had no problem with his comments prior to trial? Really? If this got under your skin this much, I'm not sure how you were remotely close to ok with his statements early on.

None! If you can find a post I made about Martin/Zimmerman prior to the trial, please show it to me. If I did, it was so meaningless to me I don't even recall it. I don't recall ever saying anything about Martin/Zimmerman until last week, and I'm pretty sure it was post-Obama's Friday speech that I made my first comment at all on the subject.

I was "remotely okay" because the whole issue was nothing but a local news story overblown by the national media for the benefit of profit that comes from drama on the news. It was complete non-news story to me. I ignored it just like I ignore my local TV station that makes what happens on "American Idol" into news. It's not news. Whenever I saw Martin/Zimmerman stuff on the news, I changed the channel, just like I do when the news starts covering American Idol. It's a waste of my time.

But for the president to stir the pot post verdict and seal Zimmerman's societal prison is sickening to me. To me THAT is news, given it's something a president should NOT do... EVER!!!!

I don't care enough to go hunting for quotes and I am not suggesting that you are lying. I'm just completely baffled. These comments were nothing compared to the pre-trial comments. I'm still a bit confused with your hyperbole though. You understand that society is going to do what it does regardless of what comes from a legal case right? Zimmerman's "societal prison" was sealed the day he shot an unarmed kid and the news media took it nationwide, portraying Zimmerman as a racist white guy and Trayvon as a sweet innocent 10 year old whether you like it or not. Obama's comments would be lock number 1,000,001 on Zimmerman's cell.

Fixed.

 

[MaxThreshold]

so you're suggesting that he's just telling people they should look at things from the AA point of view but he's not doing that himself? I'm confused, but again....I didn't take from his comments what you did. And again, I don't really care what he's saying at this point. I do find the entertaining every time he opens his mouth. What's gotten even better is the increased irony of those talking about prejudice and how others shouldn't be approaching things that way, yet those same people have already determined what Obama said/meant before he spoke the words. So I've got that going for me.

I pointing out that he is pandering to the AA's predudism of Martin as being an appropriate response to the AA's experience and history of being vicitms of predudism.

ETA: Genuine question...do you consider yourself an "activist" against Obama?

I'm an activist against almost anyone with a (D) or an ® after their name. Most everyone who has gotten anywhere in either party has done so because of the support of very corrupt people.

And how much of your latter comment influences the former?

Given I had no issue with Obama's opinions on the Martin/Zimmerman case UNTIL he said what he said on Friday, in this case none. I was intentionally ignoring the whole issue because I felt it was just media driven drama motivated by profit by the media. For him to do what he did on Friday justified the societal prison Zimmerman is going to live in from now on. That's not a political or media issue. It's a #### move, and one a president shouldn't ever do to any citizen.

So you had no problem with his comments prior to trial? Really? If this got under your skin this much, I'm not sure how you were remotely close to ok with his statements early on.

None! If you can find a post I made about Martin/Zimmerman prior to the trial, please show it to me. If I did, it was so meaningless to me I don't even recall it. I don't recall ever saying anything about Martin/Zimmerman until last week, and I'm pretty sure it was post-Obama's Friday speech that I made my first comment at all on the subject.

I was "remotely okay" because the whole issue was nothing but a local news story overblown by the national media for the benefit of profit that comes from drama on the news. It was complete non-news story to me. I ignored it just like I ignore my local TV station that makes what happens on "American Idol" into news. It's not news. Whenever I saw Martin/Zimmerman stuff on the news, I changed the channel, just like I do when the news starts covering American Idol. It's a waste of my time.

But for the president to stir the pot post verdict and seal Zimmerman's societal prison is sickening to me. To me THAT is news, given it's something a president should NOT do... EVER!!!!

I don't care enough to go hunting for quotes and I am not suggesting that you are lying. I'm just completely baffled. These comments were nothing compared to the pre-trial comments. I'm still a bit confused with your hyperbole though. You understand that society is going to do what it does regardless of what comes from a legal case right? Zimmerman's "societal prison" was sealed the day he shot an unarmed kid whether you like it or not. Obama's comments would be lock number 1,000,001 on Zimmerman's cell.

Oh, great. Now he won't be able to find a job in the hood.

 

[RCon]

I honestly don't remember timschochet posting any facts supporting his statement that GZ racially profiled TM either. I know that's his opinion, but I don't remember him posting any facts to back it up. Suppositions, yes, but those suppositions didn't have any facts backing them up.

I think we should all just agree to a stipulation of "timschochet thinks GZ racially profiled TM, based on inferences and feelings about the case, but there are no provable facts to support the claim", and then we all leave that topic alone and not ask again.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Too be honest with you i think the Mexicans are the new Blacks....they get less respect than any race i can think of.

 

[Dr Oadi]

I honestly don't remember timschochet posting any facts supporting his statement that GZ racially profiled TM either. I know that's his opinion, but I don't remember him posting any facts to back it up. Suppositions, yes, but those suppositions didn't have any facts backing them up.

I think we should all just agree to a stipulation of "timschochet thinks GZ racially profiled TM, based on inferences and feelings about the case, but there are no provable facts to support the claim", and then we all leave that topic alone and not ask again.

Fact: Blacks are racially profiled!

Fact: TM was black!

 

[The Commish]

so you're suggesting that he's just telling people they should look at things from the AA point of view but he's not doing that himself? I'm confused, but again....I didn't take from his comments what you did. And again, I don't really care what he's saying at this point. I do find the entertaining every time he opens his mouth. What's gotten even better is the increased irony of those talking about prejudice and how others shouldn't be approaching things that way, yet those same people have already determined what Obama said/meant before he spoke the words. So I've got that going for me.

I pointing out that he is pandering to the AA's predudism of Martin as being an appropriate response to the AA's experience and history of being vicitms of predudism.

ETA: Genuine question...do you consider yourself an "activist" against Obama?

I'm an activist against almost anyone with a (D) or an ® after their name. Most everyone who has gotten anywhere in either party has done so because of the support of very corrupt people.

And how much of your latter comment influences the former?

Given I had no issue with Obama's opinions on the Martin/Zimmerman case UNTIL he said what he said on Friday, in this case none. I was intentionally ignoring the whole issue because I felt it was just media driven drama motivated by profit by the media. For him to do what he did on Friday justified the societal prison Zimmerman is going to live in from now on. That's not a political or media issue. It's a #### move, and one a president shouldn't ever do to any citizen.

So you had no problem with his comments prior to trial? Really? If this got under your skin this much, I'm not sure how you were remotely close to ok with his statements early on.

None! If you can find a post I made about Martin/Zimmerman prior to the trial, please show it to me. If I did, it was so meaningless to me I don't even recall it. I don't recall ever saying anything about Martin/Zimmerman until last week, and I'm pretty sure it was post-Obama's Friday speech that I made my first comment at all on the subject.

I was "remotely okay" because the whole issue was nothing but a local news story overblown by the national media for the benefit of profit that comes from drama on the news. It was complete non-news story to me. I ignored it just like I ignore my local TV station that makes what happens on "American Idol" into news. It's not news. Whenever I saw Martin/Zimmerman stuff on the news, I changed the channel, just like I do when the news starts covering American Idol. It's a waste of my time.

But for the president to stir the pot post verdict and seal Zimmerman's societal prison is sickening to me. To me THAT is news, given it's something a president should NOT do... EVER!!!!

I don't care enough to go hunting for quotes and I am not suggesting that you are lying. I'm just completely baffled. These comments were nothing compared to the pre-trial comments. I'm still a bit confused with your hyperbole though. You understand that society is going to do what it does regardless of what comes from a legal case right? Zimmerman's "societal prison" was sealed the day he shot an unarmed kid whether you like it or not. Obama's comments would be lock number 1,000,001 on Zimmerman's cell.

Those who will create Zimmerman's societal prison just got a "thumbs up" from Obama on Friday. I don't see how you can possibly deny that. But yet you do. If you can't see something that obvious, you're not going to understand my point of view... which ironically is what you have occused me of regarding the AA community's point of view, which I fully believe are victims of the system.

What i don't see is the connection between Obama suggesting we stop and try and understand the POV of those who are very upset with this and the "thumbs up". What you seem unwilling to accept is that their reality is their reality regardless of what you think. I'm not accusing you of anything. It's my opinion, that based on your words here, you don't really get it. It's nice to think that people are "victims of the system" but what does that really mean to you? Do you believe you understand their POV? If so, why the "it's really not that bad....you don't need to be that way" attitude? IMO, if you "got it" you wouldn't be asking questions like that. You'd be digging in and trying to help. Perhaps, in practice you are and we are just talking past each other, but all I have are your words to go by at this point.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I honestly don't remember timschochet posting any facts supporting his statement that GZ racially profiled TM either. I know that's his opinion, but I don't remember him posting any facts to back it up. Suppositions, yes, but those suppositions didn't have any facts backing them up.

I think we should all just agree to a stipulation of "timschochet thinks GZ racially profiled TM, based on inferences and feelings about the case, but there are no provable facts to support the claim", and then we all leave that topic alone and not ask again.

Fact: Blacks are racially profiled!

Fact: TM was black!

Yeah but the idea here is Martin was racially profiled by a white individual; what the heck is the meaning of profiling if it's conducted by a member of one minority against another?

 

[Joe McGee]

I honestly don't remember timschochet posting any facts supporting his statement that GZ racially profiled TM either. I know that's his opinion, but I don't remember him posting any facts to back it up. Suppositions, yes, but those suppositions didn't have any facts backing them up.

I think we should all just agree to a stipulation of "timschochet thinks GZ racially profiled TM, based on inferences and feelings about the case, but there are no provable facts to support the claim", and then we all leave that topic alone and not ask again.

Fact: Blacks are racially profiled!

Fact: TM was black!

Fact: Historically 93% of Black people are killed by other Black People.

Oh wait, Tim doesn't care about that part of history.

 

[squistion]

I honestly don't remember timschochet posting any facts supporting his statement that GZ racially profiled TM either. I know that's his opinion, but I don't remember him posting any facts to back it up. Suppositions, yes, but those suppositions didn't have any facts backing them up.

I think we should all just agree to a stipulation of "timschochet thinks GZ racially profiled TM, based on inferences and feelings about the case, but there are no provable facts to support the claim", and then we all leave that topic alone and not ask again.

Fact: Blacks are racially profiled!

Fact: TM was black!

Yeah but the idea here is Martin was racially profiled by a white individual; what the heck is the meaning of profiling if it's conducted by a member of one minority against another?

One minority can not profile another?

 

[Politician Spock]

so you're suggesting that he's just telling people they should look at things from the AA point of view but he's not doing that himself? I'm confused, but again....I didn't take from his comments what you did. And again, I don't really care what he's saying at this point. I do find the entertaining every time he opens his mouth. What's gotten even better is the increased irony of those talking about prejudice and how others shouldn't be approaching things that way, yet those same people have already determined what Obama said/meant before he spoke the words. So I've got that going for me.

I pointing out that he is pandering to the AA's predudism of Martin as being an appropriate response to the AA's experience and history of being vicitms of predudism.

ETA: Genuine question...do you consider yourself an "activist" against Obama?

I'm an activist against almost anyone with a (D) or an ® after their name. Most everyone who has gotten anywhere in either party has done so because of the support of very corrupt people.

And how much of your latter comment influences the former?

Given I had no issue with Obama's opinions on the Martin/Zimmerman case UNTIL he said what he said on Friday, in this case none. I was intentionally ignoring the whole issue because I felt it was just media y drama motivated by profit by the media. For him to do what he did on Friday justified the societal prison Zimmerman is going to live in from now on. That's not a political or media issue. It's a #### move, and one a president shouldn't ever do to any citizen.

So you had no problem with his comments prior to trial? Really? If this got under your skin this much, I'm not sure how you were remotely close to ok with his statements early on.

None! If you can find a post I made about Martin/Zimmerman prior to the trial, please show it to me. If I did, it was so meaningless to me I don't even recall it. I don't recall ever saying anything about Martin/Zimmerman until last week, and I'm pretty sure it was post-Obama's Friday speech that I made my first comment at all on the subject.I was "remotely okay" because the whole issue was nothing but a local news story overblown by the national media for the benefit of profit that comes from drama on the news. It was complete non-news story to me. I ignored it just like I ignore my local TV station that makes what happens on "American Idol" into news. It's not news. Whenever I saw Martin/Zimmerman stuff on the news, I changed the channel, just like I do when the news starts covering American Idol. It's a waste of my time.

But for the president to stir the pot post verdict and seal Zimmerman's societal prison is sickening to me. To me THAT is news, given it's something a president should NOT do... EVER!!!!

I don't care enough to go hunting for quotes and I am not suggesting that you are lying. I'm just completely baffled. These comments were nothing compared to the pre-trial comments. I'm still a bit confused with your hyperbole though. You understand that society is going to do what it does regardless of what comes from a legal case right? Zimmerman's "societal prison" was sealed the day he shot an unarmed kid whether you like it or not. Obama's comments would be lock number 1,000,001 on Zimmerman's cell.

Those who will create Zimmerman's societal prison just got a "thumbs up" from Obama on Friday. I don't see how you can possibly deny that. But yet you do. If you can't see something that obvious, you're not going to understand my point of view... which ironically is what you have occused me of regarding the AA community's point of view, which I fully believe are victims of the system.

What i don't see is the connection between Obama suggesting we stop and try and understand the POV of those who are very upset with this and the "thumbs up". What you seem unwilling to accept is that their reality is their reality regardless of what you think. I'm not accusing you of anything. It's my opinion, that based on your words here, you don't really get it. It's nice to think that people are "victims of the system" but what does that really mean to you? Do you believe you understand their POV? If so, why the "it's really not that bad....you don't need to be that way" attitude? IMO, if you "got it" you wouldn't be asking questions like that. You'd be digging in and trying to help. Perhaps, in practice you are and we are just talking past each other, but all I have are your words to go by at this point.

The assumptions they've made are wrong. Recognizing that the experiences and history that compelled them to their wrong assumption are very, VERY real, does nothing to change the fact that their assumptions are wrong. I don't allow one of my sons to justify what he did to his brother because of what his sister did to him first. Being a victim doesn't entitle you to commit your own wrong. But Obama just told the nation, yes it does.

 

[Doug B]

One minority can not profile another?

Of course they can

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Which assumptions are we talking about?

 

[timschochet]

I honestly don't remember timschochet posting any facts supporting his statement that GZ racially profiled TM either. I know that's his opinion, but I don't remember him posting any facts to back it up. Suppositions, yes, but those suppositions didn't have any facts backing them up.

I think we should all just agree to a stipulation of "timschochet thinks GZ racially profiled TM, based on inferences and feelings about the case, but there are no provable facts to support the claim", and then we all leave that topic alone and not ask again.

I never said I had facts to support it. I wrote, several times, that it was a logical deduction based on Zimmerman's 911 call. It was not based on feelings.

In truth I probably pushed myself out on a farther limb than I meant to go: The Commish's argument that racial profiling was at least PART of Zimmerman's thought process, though not all of it, is probably closest to the truth IMO.

 

[timschochet]

I honestly don't remember timschochet posting any facts supporting his statement that GZ racially profiled TM either. I know that's his opinion, but I don't remember him posting any facts to back it up. Suppositions, yes, but those suppositions didn't have any facts backing them up.

I think we should all just agree to a stipulation of "timschochet thinks GZ racially profiled TM, based on inferences and feelings about the case, but there are no provable facts to support the claim", and then we all leave that topic alone and not ask again.

Fact: Blacks are racially profiled!

Fact: TM was black!

Fact: Historically 93% of Black people are killed by other Black People.

Oh wait, Tim doesn't care about that part of history.

Please explain why YOU consider that fact especially relevant, and also how it contradicts anything that I have written in this thread.

 

[Chaos Commish]

Hell of a guy!

By KYLE HIGHTOWER,

Associated Press

ORLANDO, Fla. (AP) — George Zimmerman helped rescue four people from an overturned vehicle last week, just days after he was cleared of all charges in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, officials said Monday.

Seminole County Sheriff's spokeswoman Kim Cannaday said in a statement that deputies responding to the wreck in Sanford — the Orlando suburb where Martin was shot — found Zimmerman and another man had already helped a couple and their two children out of the flipped SUV. They were not hurt.

The sheriff's office statement said Zimmerman spoke with a deputy at the scene and then left. He did not see the crash happen.

This is believed to be the first time Zimmerman has been seen publicly since his acquittal on a second-degree murder charge in the 17-year-old Martin's February 2012 death. Zimmerman's parents and his attorneys have said in interviews since the verdict that they fear for his safety because of those who may not agree with it.

A message left at the office of Zimmerman attorney Mark O'Mara was not immediately returned Monday.

The acquittal prompted rallies nationwide in the days afterward calling for a civil rights probe and federal charges against Zimmerman.

It also led to a sit-in at Florida Gov. Rick Scott's office demanding that legislators repeal the state's stand-your-ground self-defense law. The law, passed in 2005, generally eliminated a person's duty to retreat in the face of a serious physical threat. At least 21 states have a self-defense law similar to that in Florida.

Martin's shooting also started debate across the U.S. over racial profiling, self-defense and equal justice. Protesters nationwide lashed out against police in Sanford, as it took 44 days for Zimmerman to be arrested. Many, including Martin's parents, said Zimmerman had racially profiled the unarmed black teen. Zimmerman identifies himself as Hispanic.

Six anonymous female jurors considered nearly three weeks of often wildly conflicting testimony over who was the aggressor on the rainy night Martin was shot while walking through the gated townhouse community where he was staying and where Zimmerman lived.

The police was quoted as saying, 'we don't need you to do that.'

The whole thing could have been avoided if he just stayed in his car.

 

[renesauz]

Obama is absolutely right that he could have been Trayvon at age 16. Those who note the vast differences between Obama and Trayvon are seriously missing the point. They had one thing in common- they were both black youths. And as such, no matter what their background or upbringing or where they live or how they act, they are subject to greater scrutiny, greater suspicion, and more harassment. THAT was the point Obama was making and it is absolutely 100% correct.

True enough, but a large difference between you and many others here is that a lot of us place the greater portion of the blame for this on the AA culture itself, on the undeniable proclivity for violence and crime and the gang culture so prevalent in AA youths...while you continue to poo-poo those factors and place the majority of the blame on what you view as an oppressive white-dominated culture and racist "system".

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I honestly don't remember timschochet posting any facts supporting his statement that GZ racially profiled TM either. I know that's his opinion, but I don't remember him posting any facts to back it up. Suppositions, yes, but those suppositions didn't have any facts backing them up.

I think we should all just agree to a stipulation of "timschochet thinks GZ racially profiled TM, based on inferences and feelings about the case, but there are no provable facts to support the claim", and then we all leave that topic alone and not ask again.

Fact: Blacks are racially profiled!

Fact: TM was black!

Yeah but the idea here is Martin was racially profiled by a white individual; what the heck is the meaning of profiling if it's conducted by a member of one minority against another?

One minority can not profile another?

Is this national conversation about blacks, hispanics, whites, arabs and asians targeting blacks, or about whites targeting blacks? I'd say the tone and intent is definitely the latter.

The only way any of this profiling discussion makes any sense is when it's considered in historical context: ie the history of whites oppressing blacks. The problem is (just as it is with Obama because he has no family history of this...) here we do not have the historical problem in what would otherwise be a perfect model for what civil rights activists are talking about when they try to shoehorn this into a discussion about race relations and gun violence.

Three big problems

- 1. This is not white on black profiling; and

- 2. The problem of young black victims dying by guns has little to do with what happened here.

- 3. The only racial epithet here was used by the victim, not the attacker. And there is a wide open question as to whether Martin came back and attacked Zimmerman after Zimmerman turned back around to leave.

 

[timschochet]

FWIW, I believe that nearly EVERYONE engages in racial profiling. We are all guilty, but law enforcement and the judicial system (and this includes anyone like George Zimmerman who voluntarily puts himself in that position) has more responsibility than the rest of us. I also think that anyone can be profiled for various reasons, and that stereotyping abounds in our society. Hispanic youths are profiled at times by certain police forces in the same way that black youths are. Middle Eastern looking people are profiled for different reasons which can be just as unjust. Profiling is wrong, no matter how effective it might be in specific situations, because it dehumanizes and degrades people.

But young black men have had it historically and currently the worst. There really is no comparison.

 

[jon_mx]

FWIW, I believe that nearly EVERYONE engages in racial profiling. We are all guilty, but law enforcement and the judicial system (and this includes anyone like George Zimmerman who voluntarily puts himself in that position) has more responsibility than the rest of us. I also think that anyone can be profiled for various reasons, and that stereotyping abounds in our society. Hispanic youths are profiled at times by certain police forces in the same way that black youths are. Middle Eastern looking people are profiled for different reasons which can be just as unjust. Profiling is wrong, no matter how effective it might be in specific situations, because it dehumanizes and degrades people.

But young black men have had it historically and currently the worst. There really is no comparison.

Really? You call Zimmerman a wannabe cop, now you are equating him with a cop. Come on. Zimmerman is in no way connected to the legal system. You have taken so many weird positions, you have shown a willingness to try to twist everything against Zimmerman. You have no problem dehumanizing Zimmerman based on nothing but your own prejudice.

 

[timschochet]

Obama is absolutely right that he could have been Trayvon at age 16. Those who note the vast differences between Obama and Trayvon are seriously missing the point. They had one thing in common- they were both black youths. And as such, no matter what their background or upbringing or where they live or how they act, they are subject to greater scrutiny, greater suspicion, and more harassment. THAT was the point Obama was making and it is absolutely 100% correct.

True enough, but a large difference between you and many others here is that a lot of us place the greater portion of the blame for this on the AA culture itself, on the undeniable proclivity for violence and crime and the gang culture so prevalent in AA youths...while you continue to poo-poo those factors and place the majority of the blame on what you view as an oppressive white-dominated culture and racist "system".

I don't poo poo those factors, but I don't place the greater portion of the blame on them either. The proclivity for violence and crime within the African-American culture is a big part of the reason for racial profiling, but so are racial stereotypes. Either way, racial profiling is bad.

 

[timschochet]

FWIW, I believe that nearly EVERYONE engages in racial profiling. We are all guilty, but law enforcement and the judicial system (and this includes anyone like George Zimmerman who voluntarily puts himself in that position) has more responsibility than the rest of us. I also think that anyone can be profiled for various reasons, and that stereotyping abounds in our society. Hispanic youths are profiled at times by certain police forces in the same way that black youths are. Middle Eastern looking people are profiled for different reasons which can be just as unjust. Profiling is wrong, no matter how effective it might be in specific situations, because it dehumanizes and degrades people.

But young black men have had it historically and currently the worst. There really is no comparison.

Really? You call Zimmerman a wannabe cop, now you are equating him with a cop. Come on. Zimmerman is in no way connected to the legal system. You have taken so many weird positions, you have shown a willingness to try to twist everything against Zimmerman.

I don't think that's a weird position at all. I believe that EVERYONE has a moral duty to try and not engage in racial profiling, but that those that want to protect society (whether as a profession, like policemen, or voluntarily like George Zimmerman) have an even greater duty to try and not engage in it. Not sure how this is a controversial point.

 

[Christo]

FWIW, I believe that nearly EVERYONE engages in racial profiling. We are all guilty, but law enforcement and the judicial system (and this includes anyone like George Zimmerman who voluntarily puts himself in that position) has more responsibility than the rest of us. I also think that anyone can be profiled for various reasons, and that stereotyping abounds in our society. Hispanic youths are profiled at times by certain police forces in the same way that black youths are. Middle Eastern looking people are profiled for different reasons which can be just as unjust. Profiling is wrong, no matter how effective it might be in specific situations, because it dehumanizes and degrades people.

But young black men have had it historically and currently the worst. There really is no comparison.

Really? You call Zimmerman a wannabe cop, now you are equating him with a cop. Come on. Zimmerman is in no way connected to the legal system. You have taken so many weird positions, you have shown a willingness to try to twist everything against Zimmerman.

I don't think that's a weird position at all. I believe that EVERYONE has a moral duty to try and not engage in racial profiling, but that those that want to protect society (whether as a profession, like policemen, or voluntarily like George Zimmerman) have an even greater duty to try and not engage in it. Not sure how this is a controversial point.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

FWIW, I believe that nearly EVERYONE engages in racial profiling. We are all guilty, but law enforcement and the judicial system (and this includes anyone like George Zimmerman who voluntarily puts himself in that position) has more responsibility than the rest of us. I also think that anyone can be profiled for various reasons, and that stereotyping abounds in our society. Hispanic youths are profiled at times by certain police forces in the same way that black youths are. Middle Eastern looking people are profiled for different reasons which can be just as unjust. Profiling is wrong, no matter how effective it might be in specific situations, because it dehumanizes and degrades people.

But young black men have had it historically and currently the worst. There really is no comparison.

Talking about profiling is one thing. Heck old black guys in Central City profile young black youths in Grand Torino mode all the time, and the (black) neighbors appreciate it.

Talking about profiling to the extent it's a civil rights violation that caused a death based on racial hatred is another.

 

[jon_mx]

FWIW, I believe that nearly EVERYONE engages in racial profiling. We are all guilty, but law enforcement and the judicial system (and this includes anyone like George Zimmerman who voluntarily puts himself in that position) has more responsibility than the rest of us. I also think that anyone can be profiled for various reasons, and that stereotyping abounds in our society. Hispanic youths are profiled at times by certain police forces in the same way that black youths are. Middle Eastern looking people are profiled for different reasons which can be just as unjust. Profiling is wrong, no matter how effective it might be in specific situations, because it dehumanizes and degrades people.

But young black men have had it historically and currently the worst. There really is no comparison.

Really? You call Zimmerman a wannabe cop, now you are equating him with a cop. Come on. Zimmerman is in no way connected to the legal system. You have taken so many weird positions, you have shown a willingness to try to twist everything against Zimmerman.

I don't think that's a weird position at all. I believe that EVERYONE has a moral duty to try and not engage in racial profiling, but that those that want to protect society (whether as a profession, like policemen, or voluntarily like George Zimmerman) have an even greater duty to try and not engage in it. Not sure how this is a controversial point.

You call Zimmerman a racist murderer with no evidence. Is that no dehumanizing? Did you really have evidence to back it up or are you making more assumptions than what you accuse Zimmerman of doing?

 

[renesauz]

I honestly don't remember timschochet posting any facts supporting his statement that GZ racially profiled TM either. I know that's his opinion, but I don't remember him posting any facts to back it up. Suppositions, yes, but those suppositions didn't have any facts backing them up.

I think we should all just agree to a stipulation of "timschochet thinks GZ racially profiled TM, based on inferences and feelings about the case, but there are no provable facts to support the claim", and then we all leave that topic alone and not ask again.

I never said I had facts to support it. I wrote, several times, that it was a logical deduction based on Zimmerman's 911 call. It was not based on feelings.

In truth I probably pushed myself out on a farther limb than I meant to go: The Commish's argument that racial profiling was at least PART of Zimmerman's thought process, though not all of it, is probably closest to the truth IMO.

Tim...the problem most are coming to is they can't follow your logic. The problem with logic is that when most other intelligent folks can't follow it....it's probably not all that logical, no matter what the person spouting the "logic" thinks.

 

[timschochet]

FWIW, I believe that nearly EVERYONE engages in racial profiling. We are all guilty, but law enforcement and the judicial system (and this includes anyone like George Zimmerman who voluntarily puts himself in that position) has more responsibility than the rest of us. I also think that anyone can be profiled for various reasons, and that stereotyping abounds in our society. Hispanic youths are profiled at times by certain police forces in the same way that black youths are. Middle Eastern looking people are profiled for different reasons which can be just as unjust. Profiling is wrong, no matter how effective it might be in specific situations, because it dehumanizes and degrades people.

But young black men have had it historically and currently the worst. There really is no comparison.

Talking about profiling is one thing. Heck old black guys in Central City profile young black youths in Grand Torino mode all the time, and the (black) neighbors appreciate it.

Talking about profiling to the extent it's a civil rights violation that caused a death based on racial hatred is another.

To be clear I don't believe that GZ's racial profiling of Martin was the direct cause of his death. Also it doesn't matter who approves of profiling; it's still wrong.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

FWIW, I believe that nearly EVERYONE engages in racial profiling. We are all guilty, but law enforcement and the judicial system (and this includes anyone like George Zimmerman who voluntarily puts himself in that position) has more responsibility than the rest of us. I also think that anyone can be profiled for various reasons, and that stereotyping abounds in our society. Hispanic youths are profiled at times by certain police forces in the same way that black youths are. Middle Eastern looking people are profiled for different reasons which can be just as unjust. Profiling is wrong, no matter how effective it might be in specific situations, because it dehumanizes and degrades people.

But young black men have had it historically and currently the worst. There really is no comparison.

Talking about profiling is one thing. Heck old black guys in Central City profile young black youths in Grand Torino mode all the time, and the (black) neighbors appreciate it.

Talking about profiling to the extent it's a civil rights violation that caused a death based on racial hatred is another.

To be clear I don't believe that GZ's racial profiling of Martin was the direct cause of his death.Also it doesn't matter who approves of profiling; it's still wrong.

Well the profiling being at the root of the killing is pretty much the meme being pushed right now and it's a necessity for the civil rights charge.

 

[timschochet]

I honestly don't remember timschochet posting any facts supporting his statement that GZ racially profiled TM either. I know that's his opinion, but I don't remember him posting any facts to back it up. Suppositions, yes, but those suppositions didn't have any facts backing them up.

I think we should all just agree to a stipulation of "timschochet thinks GZ racially profiled TM, based on inferences and feelings about the case, but there are no provable facts to support the claim", and then we all leave that topic alone and not ask again.

I never said I had facts to support it. I wrote, several times, that it was a logical deduction based on Zimmerman's 911 call. It was not based on feelings.In truth I probably pushed myself out on a farther limb than I meant to go: The Commish's argument that racial profiling was at least PART of Zimmerman's thought process, though not all of it, is probably closest to the truth IMO.

Tim...the problem most are coming to is they can't follow your logic. The problem with logic is that when most other intelligent folks can't follow it....it's probably not all that logical, no matter what the person spouting the "logic" thinks.

i suspect they (or you) follow it fine; they just disagree with my premise.

 

[timschochet]

FWIW, I believe that nearly EVERYONE engages in racial profiling. We are all guilty, but law enforcement and the judicial system (and this includes anyone like George Zimmerman who voluntarily puts himself in that position) has more responsibility than the rest of us. I also think that anyone can be profiled for various reasons, and that stereotyping abounds in our society. Hispanic youths are profiled at times by certain police forces in the same way that black youths are. Middle Eastern looking people are profiled for different reasons which can be just as unjust. Profiling is wrong, no matter how effective it might be in specific situations, because it dehumanizes and degrades people.

But young black men have had it historically and currently the worst. There really is no comparison.

Talking about profiling is one thing. Heck old black guys in Central City profile young black youths in Grand Torino mode all the time, and the (black) neighbors appreciate it.

Talking about profiling to the extent it's a civil rights violation that caused a death based on racial hatred is another.

To be clear I don't believe that GZ's racial profiling of Martin was the direct cause of his death.Also it doesn't matter who approves of profiling; it's still wrong.

Well the profiling being at the root of the killing is pretty much the meme being pushed right now and it's a necessity for the civil rights charge.

I understand that and I'm very sympathetic to the way most honest civil rights leaders (and that doesn't include Sharpton) think about this case. But it's not the way I think about it.

 

[5 digit know nothing]

I honestly don't remember timschochet posting any facts supporting his statement that GZ racially profiled TM either. I know that's his opinion, but I don't remember him posting any facts to back it up. Suppositions, yes, but those suppositions didn't have any facts backing them up.

I think we should all just agree to a stipulation of "timschochet thinks GZ racially profiled TM, based on inferences and feelings about the case, but there are no provable facts to support the claim", and then we all leave that topic alone and not ask again.

I never said I had facts to support it. I wrote, several times, that it was a logical deduction based on Zimmerman's 911 call. It was not based on feelings.In truth I probably pushed myself out on a farther limb than I meant to go: The Commish's argument that racial profiling was at least PART of Zimmerman's thought process, though not all of it, is probably closest to the truth IMO.

Tim...the problem most are coming to is they can't follow your logic. The problem with logic is that when most other intelligent folks can't follow it....it's probably not all that logical, no matter what the person spouting the "logic" thinks.

From what I remember reading, Tim has very little trust in GZ's account of the events. However the profiling aspect of this case is pretty well documented based on the lengthy call GZ made before he got out of his car. So either Tim thinks GZ did an incredible job of holding back his racial bias while on the phone, or Tim painted himself into a corner.

 

[renesauz]

FWIW, I believe that nearly EVERYONE engages in racial profiling. We are all guilty, but law enforcement and the judicial system (and this includes anyone like George Zimmerman who voluntarily puts himself in that position) has more responsibility than the rest of us. I also think that anyone can be profiled for various reasons, and that stereotyping abounds in our society. Hispanic youths are profiled at times by certain police forces in the same way that black youths are. Middle Eastern looking people are profiled for different reasons which can be just as unjust. Profiling is wrong, no matter how effective it might be in specific situations, because it dehumanizes and degrades people.

But young black men have had it historically and currently the worst. There really is no comparison.

Talking about profiling is one thing. Heck old black guys in Central City profile young black youths in Grand Torino mode all the time, and the (black) neighbors appreciate it.

Talking about profiling to the extent it's a civil rights violation that caused a death based on racial hatred is another.

To be clear I don't believe that GZ's racial profiling of Martin was the direct cause of his death.Also it doesn't matter who approves of profiling; it's still wrong.

Racial profiling is not nearly as wrong as the circumstances which preclude it.

Profiling because racist? Racism is more wrong.

Profiling because the group profiled is murdering each other at a rate 10X higher than the white majority? Let's worry about the murders before we worry about the profiling.

YOU ARE CONCENTRATING ON THE SMALLER PROBLEM. Looking at symptoms and failing to address the causes adequately.

 

[renesauz]

I honestly don't remember timschochet posting any facts supporting his statement that GZ racially profiled TM either. I know that's his opinion, but I don't remember him posting any facts to back it up. Suppositions, yes, but those suppositions didn't have any facts backing them up.

I think we should all just agree to a stipulation of "timschochet thinks GZ racially profiled TM, based on inferences and feelings about the case, but there are no provable facts to support the claim", and then we all leave that topic alone and not ask again.

I never said I had facts to support it. I wrote, several times, that it was a logical deduction based on Zimmerman's 911 call. It was not based on feelings.In truth I probably pushed myself out on a farther limb than I meant to go: The Commish's argument that racial profiling was at least PART of Zimmerman's thought process, though not all of it, is probably closest to the truth IMO.

Tim...the problem most are coming to is they can't follow your logic. The problem with logic is that when most other intelligent folks can't follow it....it's probably not all that logical, no matter what the person spouting the "logic" thinks.

From what I remember reading, Tim has very little trust in GZ's account of the events. However the profiling aspect of this case is pretty well documented based on the lengthy call GZ made before he got out of his car. So either Tim thinks GZ did an incredible job of holding back his racial bias while on the phone, or Tim painted himself into a corner.

Agreed. The problem is that Tim has taken mistrust to an illogical level. Since he doesn't trust GZs account (a reasonable position), he automatically assumes GZ's account a lie whenever there is an even remotely possible alternative explanation (an extraordinarily Unreasonable position). He seems to find this logical...and this astounds me. Tim's a pretty smart dude all in all, which just makes it all the more fascinating.

 

[otello]

FWIW, I believe that nearly EVERYONE engages in racial profiling. We are all guilty, but law enforcement and the judicial system (and this includes anyone like George Zimmerman who voluntarily puts himself in that position) has more responsibility than the rest of us. I also think that anyone can be profiled for various reasons, and that stereotyping abounds in our society. Hispanic youths are profiled at times by certain police forces in the same way that black youths are. Middle Eastern looking people are profiled for different reasons which can be just as unjust. Profiling is wrong, no matter how effective it might be in specific situations, because it dehumanizes and degrades people.

But young black men have had it historically and currently the worst. There really is no comparison.

Really? You call Zimmerman a wannabe cop, now you are equating him with a cop. Come on. Zimmerman is in no way connected to the legal system. You have taken so many weird positions, you have shown a willingness to try to twist everything against Zimmerman.

I don't think that's a weird position at all. I believe that EVERYONE has a moral duty to try and not engage in racial profiling, but that those that want to protect society (whether as a profession, like policemen, or voluntarily like George Zimmerman) have an even greater duty to try and not engage in it. Not sure how this is a controversial point.

Is this moral duty you speak of more or less than the duty to protect yourself or your family?

 

[jon_mx]

I honestly don't remember timschochet posting any facts supporting his statement that GZ racially profiled TM either. I know that's his opinion, but I don't remember him posting any facts to back it up. Suppositions, yes, but those suppositions didn't have any facts backing them up.

I think we should all just agree to a stipulation of "timschochet thinks GZ racially profiled TM, based on inferences and feelings about the case, but there are no provable facts to support the claim", and then we all leave that topic alone and not ask again.

I never said I had facts to support it. I wrote, several times, that it was a logical deduction based on Zimmerman's 911 call. It was not based on feelings.In truth I probably pushed myself out on a farther limb than I meant to go: The Commish's argument that racial profiling was at least PART of Zimmerman's thought process, though not all of it, is probably closest to the truth IMO.

Tim...the problem most are coming to is they can't follow your logic. The problem with logic is that when most other intelligent folks can't follow it....it's probably not all that logical, no matter what the person spouting the "logic" thinks.

i suspect they (or you) follow it fine; they just disagree with my premise.

The Commish actually clearly stated the Martin was not racially profiled. He thought that race became part of the profile, whatever that means. But it did not play a key role.

 

[5 digit know nothing]

The whole racial profiling claim boils down to these two statements GZ made on the call:

"He looks black"

~a minute later during the conversation:

"He's black"

This differs from how GZ reported all of the other black youths he described in his earlier calls, why hold back when describing Martin? He clearly stated their race in the other calls right from the get go. So unless someone is claiming GZ reports anyone that even looks black wandering his neighborhood and using race as the key determining detail to report suspicious activity there is nothing else to discuss.

The prosecutors tried to tie in "these #######s" and "####### punks" comments, but neither of those can be considered racial descriptions.

Just because Martin was black and GZ reported him is not enough.

 

[MaxThreshold]

The whole racial profiling claim boils down to these two statements GZ made on the call:

"He looks black"

~a minute later during the conversation:

"He's black"

This differs from how GZ reported all of the other black youths he described in his earlier calls, why hold back when describing Martin? He clearly stated their race in the other calls right from the get go. So unless someone is claiming GZ reports anyone that even looks black wandering his neighborhood and using race as the key determining detail to report suspicious activity there is nothing else to discuss.

The prosecutors tried to tie in "these #######s" and "####### punks" comments, but neither of those can be considered racial descriptions.

Just because Martin was black and GZ reported him is not enough.

and, of course, these were in response to questions form the 911 operator who asked Zimmerman if Martin was black. Let's put these in context.

 

[Rayderr]

FWIW, I believe that nearly EVERYONE engages in racial profiling. We are all guilty, but law enforcement and the judicial system (and this includes anyone like George Zimmerman who voluntarily puts himself in that position) has more responsibility than the rest of us. I also think that anyone can be profiled for various reasons, and that stereotyping abounds in our society. Hispanic youths are profiled at times by certain police forces in the same way that black youths are. Middle Eastern looking people are profiled for different reasons which can be just as unjust. Profiling is wrong, no matter how effective it might be in specific situations, because it dehumanizes and degrades people.

But young black men have had it historically and currently the worst. There really is no comparison.

Talking about profiling is one thing. Heck old black guys in Central City profile young black youths in Grand Torino mode all the time, and the (black) neighbors appreciate it.

Talking about profiling to the extent it's a civil rights violation that caused a death based on racial hatred is another.

To be clear I don't believe that GZ's racial profiling of Martin was the direct cause of his death.Also it doesn't matter who approves of profiling; it's still wrong.

"If I can say it just another 289 times, it'll finally be true!"

 

[The Commish]

The assumptions they've made are wrong. Recognizing that the experiences and history that compelled them to their wrong assumption are very, VERY real, does nothing to change the fact that their assumptions are wrong. I don't allow one of my sons to justify what he did to his brother because of what his sister did to him first. Being a victim doesn't entitle you to commit your own wrong. But Obama just told the nation, yes it does.

He told the nation to look at it from the AA POV. From your POV you think they are wrong. From their POV they don't. No need for the hyperbole. It doesn't help anything. The only thing we can hope for as a society is that we understand each other better allowing empathy/sympathy to flow freely among us as individuals. Only then will we all start to "get it".

 

[The Commish]

FWIW, I believe that nearly EVERYONE engages in racial profiling. We are all guilty, but law enforcement and the judicial system (and this includes anyone like George Zimmerman who voluntarily puts himself in that position) has more responsibility than the rest of us. I also think that anyone can be profiled for various reasons, and that stereotyping abounds in our society. Hispanic youths are profiled at times by certain police forces in the same way that black youths are. Middle Eastern looking people are profiled for different reasons which can be just as unjust. Profiling is wrong, no matter how effective it might be in specific situations, because it dehumanizes and degrades people.

But young black men have had it historically and currently the worst. There really is no comparison.

Talking about profiling is one thing. Heck old black guys in Central City profile young black youths in Grand Torino mode all the time, and the (black) neighbors appreciate it.

Talking about profiling to the extent it's a civil rights violation that caused a death based on racial hatred is another.

To be clear I don't believe that GZ's racial profiling of Martin was the direct cause of his death.Also it doesn't matter who approves of profiling; it's still wrong.

Well the profiling being at the root of the killing is pretty much the meme being pushed right now and it's a necessity for the civil rights charge.

I haven't seen the actual suit yet....does anyone have a link to it? Will be interesting to see how that unfolds. Last I heard it was still a question on whether it was going to be brought at all.

 

[Gawain]

The assumptions they've made are wrong. Recognizing that the experiences and history that compelled them to their wrong assumption are very, VERY real, does nothing to change the fact that their assumptions are wrong. I don't allow one of my sons to justify what he did to his brother because of what his sister did to him first. Being a victim doesn't entitle you to commit your own wrong. But Obama just told the nation, yes it does.

He told the nation to look at it from the AA POV. From your POV you think they are wrong. From their POV they don't. No need for the hyperbole. It doesn't help anything. The only thing we can hope for as a society is that we understand each other better allowing empathy/sympathy to flow freely among us as individuals. Only then will we all start to "get it".

Which is dumb.

If Zimmerman had profiled Martin as a DC Comics guy, while Zimmerman was a Marvel man, the case wouldn't be about who is better, Superman or Hulk.

If Zimmerman thought Martin was a zombie, the millions of Walking Dead fans wouldn't have a special insight to the case.

The facts dictate what the case was about, not a bunch of misguided public opinion.

 

[Politician Spock]

The assumptions they've made are wrong. Recognizing that the experiences and history that compelled them to their wrong assumption are very, VERY real, does nothing to change the fact that their assumptions are wrong. I don't allow one of my sons to justify what he did to his brother because of what his sister did to him first. Being a victim doesn't entitle you to commit your own wrong. But Obama just told the nation, yes it does.

He told the nation to look at it from the AA POV. From your POV you think they are wrong. From their POV they don't. No need for the hyperbole. It doesn't help anything. The only thing we can hope for as a society is that we understand each other better allowing empathy/sympathy to flow freely among us as individuals. Only then will we all start to "get it".

Hyperbole?!?



From their POV he was guilty before they had any knowledge, thought or reason to conclude that. And they still do. And they will make him pay for it in their own way. They are victims. There is no doubt about that. But being victims doesn't justify what they are doing to him at all.

 

[The Commish]

I honestly don't remember timschochet posting any facts supporting his statement that GZ racially profiled TM either. I know that's his opinion, but I don't remember him posting any facts to back it up. Suppositions, yes, but those suppositions didn't have any facts backing them up.

I think we should all just agree to a stipulation of "timschochet thinks GZ racially profiled TM, based on inferences and feelings about the case, but there are no provable facts to support the claim", and then we all leave that topic alone and not ask again.

I never said I had facts to support it. I wrote, several times, that it was a logical deduction based on Zimmerman's 911 call. It was not based on feelings.In truth I probably pushed myself out on a farther limb than I meant to go: The Commish's argument that racial profiling was at least PART of Zimmerman's thought process, though not all of it, is probably closest to the truth IMO.

Tim...the problem most are coming to is they can't follow your logic. The problem with logic is that when most other intelligent folks can't follow it....it's probably not all that logical, no matter what the person spouting the "logic" thinks.

i suspect they (or you) follow it fine; they just disagree with my premise.

The Commish actually clearly stated the Martin was not racially profiled. He thought that race became part of the profile, whatever that means. But it did not play a key role.

It means that he saw someone (at a distance) that was dressed similar to others who had been robbing the area. At this point there was no telling he was black or not. Then this "someone" ended up fitting another trait (black) of those who had been robbing the area as he got closer and Zimmerman could see his skin color. Initially the profile was something like "Tall, skinny kid walking in the rain looking at the buildings". That, on it's face was enough for Zimmerman to call the cops. Then while on the phone with the cops it became "Tall, skinny kid, mid to late teens, black, walking in the rain looking at the buildings". This profile was not driven by race. That's what I mean and that's the last time I'm going to explain it.

 

[The Commish]

The whole racial profiling claim boils down to these two statements GZ made on the call:

"He looks black"

~a minute later during the conversation:

"He's black"

This differs from how GZ reported all of the other black youths he described in his earlier calls, why hold back when describing Martin? He clearly stated their race in the other calls right from the get go. So unless someone is claiming GZ reports anyone that even looks black wandering his neighborhood and using race as the key determining detail to report suspicious activity there is nothing else to discuss.

The prosecutors tried to tie in "these #######s" and "####### punks" comments, but neither of those can be considered racial descriptions.

Just because Martin was black and GZ reported him is not enough.

I'm not sure there was question about these statements. I think more folks were up in arms over his "They always get away" comment more than anything.

 

[cstu]

The whole racial profiling claim boils down to these two statements GZ made on the call:

"He looks black"

~a minute later during the conversation:

"He's black"

This differs from how GZ reported all of the other black youths he described in his earlier calls, why hold back when describing Martin? He clearly stated their race in the other calls right from the get go. So unless someone is claiming GZ reports anyone that even looks black wandering his neighborhood and using race as the key determining detail to report suspicious activity there is nothing else to discuss.

The prosecutors tried to tie in "these #######s" and "####### punks" comments, but neither of those can be considered racial descriptions.

Just because Martin was black and GZ reported him is not enough.

I'm not sure there was question about these statements. I think more folks were up in arms over his "They always get away" comment more than anything.

'They' refers to criminals, stupid IMO to think otherwise.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Down goes Frazier! Down goes Frazier! Down goes Frazier!

 

[The Commish]

The assumptions they've made are wrong. Recognizing that the experiences and history that compelled them to their wrong assumption are very, VERY real, does nothing to change the fact that their assumptions are wrong. I don't allow one of my sons to justify what he did to his brother because of what his sister did to him first. Being a victim doesn't entitle you to commit your own wrong. But Obama just told the nation, yes it does.

He told the nation to look at it from the AA POV. From your POV you think they are wrong. From their POV they don't. No need for the hyperbole. It doesn't help anything. The only thing we can hope for as a society is that we understand each other better allowing empathy/sympathy to flow freely among us as individuals. Only then will we all start to "get it".

Hyperbole?!?



From their POV he was guilty before they had any knowledge, thought or reason to conclude that. And they still do. And they will make him pay for it in their own way. They are victims. There is no doubt about that. But being victims doesn't justify what they are doing to him at all.

Yes...hyperbole. When you go on and on about Obama single handedly "sealing Zimmerman's fate" and all that nonsense, that's hyperbole. Legally, I agree that being victims doesn't justify their actions towards Zimmerman, but one has to be foolish not to understand society doesn't have to abide by the laws of this land for society's sake. Society works things out on it's own terms. What is happening to him is happening because he shot an unarmed kid after being attacked by that kid. It's the classic monday morning QB. I'm not saying it's right. I'm not saying it's just. I'm saying it's a reaction to an action. That reaction is based on a very long history that few take the time to understand.