Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch (3 Viewers)

[Rayderr]

So, am I correct in reading the jury's request for an evidence list as a sign that the jury is currently split?

what the hell is an evidence list? Is it literally a list of crap like the gun, the skittles, and the can of soda?

WEll, it's a list of all the evidence that was entered in court. Police photos, 9/11 calls, etc.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

So, am I correct in reading the jury's request for an evidence list as a sign that the jury is currently split?

what the hell is an evidence list? Is it literally a list of crap like the gun, the skittles, and the can of soda?

Yes. Generally before a trial, both sides submit a list to the court and to the other side of their proposed evidence. And then each side lodges objections. You have some motions practice, and stuff is resolved.

From what I saw of the trial, it sound like at the end of that process, both sides agreed to just move the stuff in the final list into evidence instead of going through the annoying formalities of moving to admit everything as you use it. Which means there's some "evidence" that wasn't even shown at trial.

That list will say something "State's Exhibit No: 1, Picture of Trayvon Martin's body" and so on.

 

[Zow]

So, am I correct in reading the jury's request for an evidence list as a sign that the jury is currently split?

Not really.

It could mean that, but it could just be that they are following instructions and want to literally look at all the evidence.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Was Zimmerman continuously screaming or was he swallowing blood and unable to breathe?

 

[The Commish]

Have you ever had someone mount you and apply their body weight against your broken nose as they try to suffocate you to death?

People keep coming into the thread assuming the injuries Zimmerman had sustained up to that point HAD to be life threatening injuries, i.e. Zimmerman had to be on the verge of dying. This has been pointed out countless times as being wrong, that is not required in order to claim self-defense in order to be justified in using deadly force. Zimmerman did not need a scratch on him to support claiming self defense.

You're mischaracterizing the argument. It's absolutely true that Zimmerman could have a great self defense claim in the absence of any injuries. If Martin had pulled at a butcher's knife and had advanced on Zimmerman, that would be a great case where there's a reasonable fear of great bodily harm without any injuries.The argument is that the totality of facts and circumstances, including the fact that Martin was unarmed and that Zimmerman did not, in fact, sustain major injuries, supports the conclusion that a reasonably prudent and careful person probably would not have feared such injuries.

No evidence was presented to confirm that Trayvon was trying to suffocate George, all that was presented was muffled screams for help on the 911 call. Even if Trayvon was on top and covering George's mouth, it doesn't mean he was trying to suffocate him. Good testified that he saw Trayvon's arms moving up and down, not pressed over George's mouth and nose trying to suffocate George. There was no evidence that Trayvon was trying to do anything other than prevent George from screaming.

I'm still interested in an explanation of how he could be raining down punches MMA style, trying to suffocate him and grabbing for his gun all at the same time. No one's wanted to tackle that one yet.

Witness saw the "raining down punches MMA style", but didn't witness the entire altercation (left to call 911). I don't know that all the other stuff had to happen at the same time.

Correct...the timeline of the fight was pretty short....to do all three, he'd have to be doing at least two of them most of the time. That's why I don't believe all three are legit. I do believe he was on top of him trying to punch him. The rest? Not so much.

 

[The Commish]

I'm still interested in an explanation of how he could be raining down punches MMA style, trying to suffocate him and grabbing for his gun all at the same time. No one's wanted to tackle that one yet.

No one ever stipulated that all that happened simultaneously, I don't believe?

Again...this wasn't a prolonged fight. That's a lot to happen in a very short period of time. That's my ultimate point. I just don't think it's possible. Doesn't matter. We have no evidence of Martin going for his gun other than Zimmerman. We have what appears to be a muffled voice on the one call, but that could have been things other than attempted suffocation.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

Was Zimmerman continuously screaming or was he swallowing blood and unable to breathe?

How many people are using this account?

 

[tdoss]

Any word on jury staying late or over weekend?

Any chance the riots might disrupt my festivities at the Over The Line Tournament in SD tomorrow?

 

[greenroom]

jury requested inventory list

Yes, and rumor is that defense has handed over their complete list, and State has handed over a blank piece of paper. Just rumor.

Pretty funny rumor..

but here would be the corrected rumor

Yes, and rumor is that defense has handed over their complete list, and State has handed over the gun. Just rumor.

 

[BoltzNBrew]

No FFA Poll w/ Guilty 2nd Degree, Guilty Manslaughter, Not Guilty options?

 

[Cliff Clavin]

No FFA Poll w/ Guilty 2nd Degree, Guilty Manslaughter, Not Guilty options?

There is no way to limit the poll to people who have watched the entire trial so there really isn't a point.

 

[The Commish]

No FFA Poll w/ Guilty 2nd Degree, Guilty Manslaughter, Not Guilty options?

There is no way to limit the poll to people who have watched the entire trial so there really isn't a point.

Agreed...but Jon had started it anyway.

 

[jamny]

I'm still interested in an explanation of how he could be raining down punches MMA style, trying to suffocate him and grabbing for his gun all at the same time. No one's wanted to tackle that one yet.

No one ever stipulated that all that happened simultaneously, I don't believe?

Again...this wasn't a prolonged fight. That's a lot to happen in a very short period of time. That's my ultimate point. I just don't think it's possible. Doesn't matter. We have no evidence of Martin going for his gun other than Zimmerman. We have what appears to be a muffled voice on the one call, but that could have been things other than attempted suffocation.

Not really sure why you keep going back to this. It all could have happened in the span of 20-30 seconds. Stop and think about that timeframe and what it could have been like.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

No FFA Poll w/ Guilty 2nd Degree, Guilty Manslaughter, Not Guilty options?

There is no way to limit the poll to people who have watched the entire trial so there really isn't a point.

How about limiting it by the number of posts they made it in this thread? Cut it off at like 25 posts and more?

Cliff Clavin 24

 

[Mr Two Cents]

Have you ever had someone mount you and apply their body weight against your broken nose as they try to suffocate you to death?

People keep coming into the thread assuming the injuries Zimmerman had sustained up to that point HAD to be life threatening injuries, i.e. Zimmerman had to be on the verge of dying. This has been pointed out countless times as being wrong, that is not required in order to claim self-defense in order to be justified in using deadly force. Zimmerman did not need a scratch on him to support claiming self defense.

You're mischaracterizing the argument. It's absolutely true that Zimmerman could have a great self defense claim in the absence of any injuries. If Martin had pulled at a butcher's knife and had advanced on Zimmerman, that would be a great case where there's a reasonable fear of great bodily harm without any injuries.

The argument is that the totality of facts and circumstances, including the fact that Martin was unarmed and that Zimmerman did not, in fact, sustain major injuries, supports the conclusion that a reasonably prudent and careful person probably would not have feared such injuries.

I think this is where many of us disagree. Getting a broken nose from being sucker punched then having your head bashed into the concrete meets my definition of major injuries. I imagine that Zimmerman's eyes were watering, he was disoriented from the sucker punch to the nose, and his adrenaline was racing as he felt he was screaming for his life.

It seems to me that many of you think that George should have just let himself get killed.

In order to accept that George Zimmerman was having his "head bashed into the concrete" (as opposed to scratching his head against the concrete) you have to accept George Zimmerman's story. That aspect of his story is inconsistent with the injuries he sustained. And there's just no credible support for it unless you're inclined to believe his self-interested testimony.

I'm not Joe tough guy, but I have been sucker punched. I have been on the bottom of a fight I was losing. I have thought "Gee, I'm getting my *** kicked here." I have never thought "my life is in peril and the only way out is to shoot my attacker."

And again, my perspective is informed by the law itself. Deadly force is defined as force likely to cause "death or serious bodily injury." A "Deadly Weapon" is a weapon that is likely to cause "death or serious bodily injury." Unless you're Chuck Norris, your fists aren't a deadly weapon. Trayvon Martin's certainly weren't. The jury is not obligated to credit Zimmerman's account, particularly when it is inconsistent with the physical evidence (both Zimmerman's injuries and Trayvon's).

I thought the fear of death or serious bodily injury had to be in Zimmerman's mind. I've been inadvertently hit in the nose playing basketball where I couldn't think straight or move right for 30 minutes.

I don't think it's much of a stretch to envision Zimmerman thinking he was a big man with a gun (which Martin didn't know he had) and had the upper hand. If he had called 911 so many times, I would imagine this situation was old hat to him. When Zimmerman got sucker punched and started getting hit on the ground he started crapping his pants.

When no one came to help him, he pulled out the gun and shot Trayvon. I think Trayvon was going Good Will Hunting on Zimmerman's ### and never saw the gun. Unlike the movie, Trayvon was shot and died.

No, it has to be a "reasonable" fear. It's an objective standard, not a subjective one.

I don't see think the "Zimmerman wasn't thinking straight" narrative comports with the evidence either. I imagine it would take some concerted effort to pull a gun out of his waistband, put it in position to shoot, and land a hit to center mass in that situation. Far more effort than to cover up and protect your head, for instance.

Again, my position is informed by the reality that self-defense has traditionally been hard to prevail upon, and IMO SHOULD be hard to prevail upon. Most homicides have no eyewitnesses or crappy eyewitnesses. Zimmerman has a colorable claim, but I just can't read that statute as authorizing deadly force anytime there's any evidence of any battery. Such a statute would be easy to write and the legislature didn't write it that way.

See but your imagination is incorrect, you obviously don't carry. If Zimmerman wanted to "stalk" and "kill" the black kid his weapon would have been out long before even the encounter. You seriously have no clue about what you are thinking.

Your assumptions are both ignorant and incorrect.

 

[Rayderr]

No FFA Poll w/ Guilty 2nd Degree, Guilty Manslaughter, Not Guilty options?

Here you go.

 

[Doug B]

Again...this wasn't a prolonged fight. That's a lot to happen in a very short period of time. That's my ultimate point. I just don't think it's possible. Doesn't matter. We have no evidence of Martin going for his gun other than Zimmerman. We have what appears to be a muffled voice on the one call, but that could have been things other than attempted suffocation.

Define "prolonged" IMHO, 25-30 seconds was more than enough for all of it to go down reasonably.

Also, I don't think the "MMA ground & pound" testimony makes any implication of time elapsed ... just that blows were repeated and were done from a certain stance. Could well have been as few as five or so blows. Seems reasonable to me.

Lastly, I think the "how'd Zimmerman get the gun if his torso was straddled?" question is an easy one -- Martin could've slid off a bit to one side, perhaps preparing to reposition or dismount. Also, Martin's movements while straddled over Zimmerman could've moved the holster or gun a little bit into an easier to reach position (e.g. away from navel and towards hip).

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

Any word on jury staying late or over weekend?

Any chance the riots might disrupt my festivities at the Over The Line Tournament in SD tomorrow?

Judge left it open-ended, it is up to the jury how late they want to deliberate tonight, not sure about tomorrow - but I assume it will be up to the jury.

 

[-fish-]

Any word on jury staying late or over weekend?

Any chance the riots might disrupt my festivities at the Over The Line Tournament in SD tomorrow?

Nothing disrupts OTL. Say hi to Miss Emerson.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

Any word on jury staying late or over weekend?

Any chance the riots might disrupt my festivities at the Over The Line Tournament in SD tomorrow?

Judge left it open-ended, it is up to the jury how late they want to deliberate tonight, not sure about tomorrow - but I assume it will be up to the jury.

Judge just said 6PM tonight, start up at 9AM tomorrow AM.

 

[Mr.Pack]

The other thing I wonder about with the fight scenario is if George heard that 911 was being called, why didn't he just try to protect himself until the cops arrived? His injuries weren't life threatening to the point where he shot Trayvon, couldn't he have just continued to protect himself and keep screaming while he waited a few minutes for the police to arrive? Actually I know the answer to this is that no one would count on the police arriving in a timely manner, but it is something to consider. Also, did Good testify whether he could see George doing anything to protect himself? If his arms weren't pinned down by Trayvon, wouldn't he try to punch/gouge Trayvon, or cover his own head to protect against the punches from Trayvon? If the prosecution didn't ask Good about this it was a mistake.

Have you ever had someone mount you and apply their body weight against your broken nose as they try to suffocate you to death?People keep coming into the thread assuming the injuries Zimmerman had sustained up to that point HAD to be life threatening injuries, i.e. Zimmerman had to be on the verge of dying. This has been pointed out countless times as being wrong, that is not required in order to claim self-defense in order to be justified in using deadly force. Zimmerman did not need a scratch on him to support claiming self defense.

You're mischaracterizing the argument. It's absolutely true that Zimmerman could have a great self defense claim in the absence of any injuries. If Martin had pulled at a butcher's knife and had advanced on Zimmerman, that would be a great case where there's a reasonable fear of great bodily harm without any injuries.

The argument is that the totality of facts and circumstances, including the fact that Martin was unarmed and that Zimmerman did not, in fact, sustain major injuries, supports the conclusion that a reasonably prudent and careful person probably would not have feared such injuries.

No I am not. The argument is: if Zimmerman didn't have life threatening injuries why was his use of deadly force justified as posted by roarlions, you purposefully cut out the post I was replying to. I've added it back in and bolded it for emphasis. You have a habit in this thread of moving the goal posts and quite frankly it is irritating. Your last line is a red herring, one in which you are leaving out vital facts of this case leading to a false conclusion.

Not really following this trial, but this is the first I've heard that he had life threatening injuries. How long was he in the hospital? Life support at all? Surgeries?

If this is true, I can see the self defense argument.

Would you feel the same way if this was your daughter? What limits are you establishing for your family, dad?

So the answer is no to everything I asked?

I don't get what your question has to do with my question.

 

[Charlie Frown]

Did John Good testify that he shouted that he was going to call 911 before heading back inside? Is it reasonable to assume that both Trayvon and Zimmerman heard that announcement?

There's no way they didn't know the police were on their way. Goes for both Trayvon and George.

If true, seems like it would have been a good time for Trayvon to have tried to get away before the police arrived.

Agreed if he didn't think getting up and running would mean him getting shot in the back or some such. I've struggled with this very point for a while now. It speaks to Martin's discretion as well as Zimmerman's discretion and the feasibility of him being genuinely scared for his life. He called the cops and knows others did to. Martin knew that others called the cops...not sure he knew Zimmerman had called the cops though.

Trayvon could have reacted to the announcement by Good that he was calling 911 by getting up off of George, leaning over him to taunt him, and giving George the chance to grab his gun and shoot him. Would still allow for the description of how he was shot (shirt hanging away from his body, shot at 90 degree angle), while also allowing for the idea that Trayvon was ending the fight (which I think the prosecution suggested). I still don't understand how George had access to his gun if Trayvon was straddling his abdomen.

I'm not suggesting this happened, but perhaps TM repositioned himself on GZ's body and felt the gun on the back side of his thigh? If that was the case, TM was likely to move down GZ's body to be able to grab the gun from in front of his thigh rather than awkwardly reaching back behind his thigh. Of course, if that was the case, you'd have to think that TM would be able to reach the gun before GZ since he was the one moving his body and thefore would have a better feel for when the gun was in range.

He only had two hands. He was "raining down punches MMA style", covering his mouth and nose AND grabbing for the gun?? The more I think about it, the more I believe GZ may have felt his shirt/jacket come up....that's about it.

Personally, I don't believe TM was going for Z's gun either, but rather, that TM hit the gun into Z and that was what drove Z to go for the gun and shoot. As to the punches/smothering, I don't fully discount those actions happening during the course of the altercation. You don't have to do all concurrently for them to be prevalent.

He did have to fit them all into a matter of seconds though. "raining down mma style punches" is not a swing or two or even 5. "Trying to suffocate" is not a 5 second effort either yet these are all claims we've heard. It just doesn't add up...especially when we don't know how long Martin was supposedly on top of Zimmerman. I tend to believe Martin was on top of Zimmerman trying to punch him and it's clear to me that he did a pretty good job of covering up to protect himself. I don't believe he was trying to suffocate him and I don't believe he went after his gun.

I took this to mean that at some point TM grabbed GZ by the face with one hand and tried to hit with the other maybe?.

It also sounds like GZ was in a "guard" position (which he would have learned if he taken a single day of MMA training). Otherwise if TM had "full mount" then GZ never would been able to pull his weapon.

 

[timschochet]

One of the CNN lawyers is bringing a point that I made at the start of the trial and which Ramsay also made later on: the prosecution presented Zimmerman's prior statements so that they could attack them- the closing argument was all about making Zimmerman out to be a liar. I believe that was a tactical error. What the prosecution should have done instead is not offered any of Zimmerman's statements- that might have forced the defense to put Zimmerman on the stand in order to relate his narrative, and the prosecution may have won the case during the cross-examination.

If Zimmerman is acquitted, then this decision by the prosecution may be a pivotal reason.

 

[timschochet]

The entire fight lasted 42 seconds. Yet Zimmerman says Martin pounded his head into the concrete 20-25 times. That's once every 2 seconds. Martin also, at some point during these same 42 seconds, (1) covered Zimmerman's nose and mouth (2) told Zimmerman he was going to die (3) went for Zimmerman's gun.

I didn't realize that Trayvon Martin had the skills of Jackie Chan. How did Zimmerman possibly survive this onslaught?

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

One of the CNN lawyers is bringing a point that I made at the start of the trial and which Ramsay also made later on: the prosecution presented Zimmerman's prior statements so that they could attack them- the closing argument was all about making Zimmerman out to be a liar. I believe that was a tactical error. What the prosecution should have done instead is not offered any of Zimmerman's statements- that might have forced the defense to put Zimmerman on the stand in order to relate his narrative, and the prosecution may have won the case during the cross-examination.

If Zimmerman is acquitted, then this decision by the prosecution may be a pivotal reason.

Their entire case was based on:

"These #######s always get away"

"These ####### punks"

How do they get at depraved mind otherwise?

 

[Joe McGee]

One of the CNN lawyers is bringing a point that I made at the start of the trial and which Ramsay also made later on: the prosecution presented Zimmerman's prior statements so that they could attack them- the closing argument was all about making Zimmerman out to be a liar. I believe that was a tactical error. What the prosecution should have done instead is not offered any of Zimmerman's statements- that might have forced the defense to put Zimmerman on the stand in order to relate his narrative, and the prosecution may have won the case during the cross-examination.

If Zimmerman is acquitted, then this decision by the prosecution may be a pivotal reason.

Give it up. He wasn't taking the stand.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

The entire fight lasted 42 seconds. Yet Zimmerman says Martin pounded his head into the concrete 20-25 times. That's once every 2 seconds. Martin also, at some point during these same 42 seconds, (1) covered Zimmerman's nose and mouth (2) told Zimmerman he was going to die (3) went for Zimmerman's gun.

I didn't realize that Trayvon Martin had the skills of Jackie Chan. How did Zimmerman possibly survive this onslaught?

I'd say he was more like Chuck Norris.

 

[Joe McGee]

I'm kind of hoping for a hung jury and then no retrial. Less rioting that way.

 

[timschochet]

One of the CNN lawyers is bringing a point that I made at the start of the trial and which Ramsay also made later on: the prosecution presented Zimmerman's prior statements so that they could attack them- the closing argument was all about making Zimmerman out to be a liar. I believe that was a tactical error. What the prosecution should have done instead is not offered any of Zimmerman's statements- that might have forced the defense to put Zimmerman on the stand in order to relate his narrative, and the prosecution may have won the case during the cross-examination.

If Zimmerman is acquitted, then this decision by the prosecution may be a pivotal reason.

Their entire case was based on:

"These #######s always get away"

"These ####### punks"

How do they get at depraved mind otherwise?

No, their case was based on a series of lies by George Zimmerman that would make any objective person suspicious of him, and pretty sure he is guilty. Unfortunately suspicion isn't enough to convict.

But for anyone to believe, the way you do, that Zimmerman is most likely innocent- I can't fathom that. There is absolutely NO evidence that would lead you to believe that. Only his story, which is demonstrably full of falsehoods.

 

[timschochet]

One of the CNN lawyers is bringing a point that I made at the start of the trial and which Ramsay also made later on: the prosecution presented Zimmerman's prior statements so that they could attack them- the closing argument was all about making Zimmerman out to be a liar. I believe that was a tactical error. What the prosecution should have done instead is not offered any of Zimmerman's statements- that might have forced the defense to put Zimmerman on the stand in order to relate his narrative, and the prosecution may have won the case during the cross-examination.

If Zimmerman is acquitted, then this decision by the prosecution may be a pivotal reason.

Give it up. He wasn't taking the stand.

Then he would have been convicted. If the prosecution hadn't offered Zimmerman's narrative, and Zimmerman refused to take the stand, he would have been convicted rather easily IMO.

 

[Joe McGee]

One of the CNN lawyers is bringing a point that I made at the start of the trial and which Ramsay also made later on: the prosecution presented Zimmerman's prior statements so that they could attack them- the closing argument was all about making Zimmerman out to be a liar. I believe that was a tactical error. What the prosecution should have done instead is not offered any of Zimmerman's statements- that might have forced the defense to put Zimmerman on the stand in order to relate his narrative, and the prosecution may have won the case during the cross-examination.

If Zimmerman is acquitted, then this decision by the prosecution may be a pivotal reason.

Give it up. He wasn't taking the stand.

Then he would have been convicted. If the prosecution hadn't offered Zimmerman's narrative, and Zimmerman refused to take the stand, he would have been convicted rather easily IMO.

Give it up means give up. Not try harder.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

Depraved mind and ill-will

Earth to Tim

 

[Doug B]

The entire fight lasted 42 seconds. Yet Zimmerman says Martin pounded his head into the concrete 20-25 times. That's once every 2 seconds. Martin also, at some point during these same 42 seconds, (1) covered Zimmerman's nose and mouth (2) told Zimmerman he was going to die (3) went for Zimmerman's gun.

I don't consider it possible for someone to reliably report on how many times their own head was beaten. I'm positive Zimmerman was wrong about that even while the general (very general) gist of his account was as reasonably accurate as could be expected. I don't expect a photorealistic memory after an event like that.

More likely is that Zimmerman takes the punch to the nose, falls back, hits his head on the pavement. Martin gets on top as Zimmerman raised his head -- but then Zimmerman's head is forced downward. We're up to two head-hits, neither of which were direct grab-head-drop-on-pavement blows.

Then, as Zimmerman takes some number of bows to the head (and maybe to his arms if he was covering up), Zimmerman keeps feeling that hard pavement behind his head. Zimmerman, in fight-or-flight mode, may have been registering those blows as "head on the pavement" jobs just going on how they felt to him. He probably felt a dozen or less "head on the pavement" blows ... but he was in no position to play Human Videotape for investigators.

And of course ... there's trumping up the story in one's own mind. To Zimmerman, it was probably like "my head hit pavement a bunch" ... the difference between 10, 15, 20, 25 head-hits probably didn't seem meaningful as he was recalling the event.

...

Tim, that 42 seconds is pretty well attested? No chance it was a minute or so? Not sure, as I've watched about 200 fewer hours of the trial than Jojo has.

 

[avoiding injuries]

Why are we still talking about hypotheticals and GZ taking the stand? Did Judge Nelson login under Tim?

 

[17seconds]

One of the CNN lawyers is bringing a point that I made at the start of the trial and which Ramsay also made later on: the prosecution presented Zimmerman's prior statements so that they could attack them- the closing argument was all about making Zimmerman out to be a liar. I believe that was a tactical error. What the prosecution should have done instead is not offered any of Zimmerman's statements- that might have forced the defense to put Zimmerman on the stand in order to relate his narrative, and the prosecution may have won the case during the cross-examination.

If Zimmerman is acquitted, then this decision by the prosecution may be a pivotal reason.

Their entire case was based on:

"These #######s always get away"

"These ####### punks"

How do they get at depraved mind otherwise?

He said those things and then he killed a kid walking to his dad's house. Not really hard to get to that conclusion. What did TM have against GZ? All we know is he was winning a fistfight until GZ shot him through the heart.

I mean that's basically it from a high level. GZ and TM had the same right to defend themselves. I can't fathom someone being 100% sure GZ is a well-meaning guy who defended his life against a brutal attacker. Give me a break.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

Again...this wasn't a prolonged fight. That's a lot to happen in a very short period of time. That's my ultimate point. I just don't think it's possible. Doesn't matter. We have no evidence of Martin going for his gun other than Zimmerman. We have what appears to be a muffled voice on the one call, but that could have been things other than attempted suffocation.

Define "prolonged" IMHO, 25-30 seconds was more than enough for all of it to go down reasonably.

Also, I don't think the "MMA ground & pound" testimony makes any implication of time elapsed ... just that blows were repeated and were done from a certain stance. Could well have been as few as five or so blows. Seems reasonable to me.

Lastly, I think the "how'd Zimmerman get the gun if his torso was straddled?" question is an easy one -- Martin could've slid off a bit to one side, perhaps preparing to reposition or dismount. Also, Martin's movements while straddled over Zimmerman could've moved the holster or gun a little bit into an easier to reach position (e.g. away from navel and towards hip).

Then GZ could have escaped the beating and didn't need to shoot tm.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

Can we get the post leaders of this thread?

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Did John Good testify that he shouted that he was going to call 911 before heading back inside? Is it reasonable to assume that both Trayvon and Zimmerman heard that announcement?

There's no way they didn't know the police were on their way. Goes for both Trayvon and George.

If true, seems like it would have been a good time for Trayvon to have tried to get away before the police arrived.

Agreed if he didn't think getting up and running would mean him getting shot in the back or some such. I've struggled with this very point for a while now. It speaks to Martin's discretion as well as Zimmerman's discretion and the feasibility of him being genuinely scared for his life. He called the cops and knows others did to. Martin knew that others called the cops...not sure he knew Zimmerman had called the cops though.

Trayvon could have reacted to the announcement by Good that he was calling 911 by getting up off of George, leaning over him to taunt him, and giving George the chance to grab his gun and shoot him. Would still allow for the description of how he was shot (shirt hanging away from his body, shot at 90 degree angle), while also allowing for the idea that Trayvon was ending the fight (which I think the prosecution suggested). I still don't understand how George had access to his gun if Trayvon was straddling his abdomen.

I'm not suggesting this happened, but perhaps TM repositioned himself on GZ's body and felt the gun on the back side of his thigh? If that was the case, TM was likely to move down GZ's body to be able to grab the gun from in front of his thigh rather than awkwardly reaching back behind his thigh. Of course, if that was the case, you'd have to think that TM would be able to reach the gun before GZ since he was the one moving his body and thefore would have a better feel for when the gun was in range.

He only had two hands. He was "raining down punches MMA style", covering his mouth and nose AND grabbing for the gun?? The more I think about it, the more I believe GZ may have felt his shirt/jacket come up....that's about it.

Personally, I don't believe TM was going for Z's gun either, but rather, that TM hit the gun into Z and that was what drove Z to go for the gun and shoot. As to the punches/smothering, I don't fully discount those actions happening during the course of the altercation. You don't have to do all concurrently for them to be prevalent.

He did have to fit them all into a matter of seconds though. "raining down mma style punches" is not a swing or two or even 5. "Trying to suffocate" is not a 5 second effort either yet these are all claims we've heard. It just doesn't add up...especially when we don't know how long Martin was supposedly on top of Zimmerman. I tend to believe Martin was on top of Zimmerman trying to punch him and it's clear to me that he did a pretty good job of covering up to protect himself. I don't believe he was trying to suffocate him and I don't believe he went after his gun.

I took this to mean that at some point TM grabbed GZ by the face with one hand and tried to hit with the other maybe?.

It also sounds like GZ was in a "guard" position (which he would have learned if he taken a single day of MMA training). Otherwise if TM had "full mount" then GZ never would been able to pull his weapon.

Too bad treyvon didnt have one punch power...CRACK...zzzzzz....go home and watch the allstar game eatin his skittles.

 

[avoiding injuries]

One of the CNN lawyers is bringing a point that I made at the start of the trial and which Ramsay also made later on: the prosecution presented Zimmerman's prior statements so that they could attack them- the closing argument was all about making Zimmerman out to be a liar. I believe that was a tactical error. What the prosecution should have done instead is not offered any of Zimmerman's statements- that might have forced the defense to put Zimmerman on the stand in order to relate his narrative, and the prosecution may have won the case during the cross-examination.

If Zimmerman is acquitted, then this decision by the prosecution may be a pivotal reason.

Their entire case was based on:"These #######s always get away"

"These ####### punks"

How do they get at depraved mind otherwise?

No, their case was based on a series of lies by George Zimmerman that would make any objective person suspicious of him, and pretty sure he is guilty. Unfortunately suspicion isn't enough to convict.But for anyone to believe, the way you do, that Zimmerman is most likely innocent- I can't fathom that. There is absolutely NO evidence that would lead you to believe that. Only his story, which is demonstrably full of falsehoods.

If we choose not to believe GZ, do we also have to not believe what Chris Serino said about him being truthful? Do we have to discredit all of the eye witnesses that corroborated his story and the experts who testified that the forensics matched up with the narrative that GZ gave?Do we then have to rely on Didi, people who saw shadows, parents who heard their kids voice (after initially not hearing it), and speculation presented by the state? Are we only allowed to use our emotions when coming to a decision?

 

[Courtjester]

One of the CNN lawyers is bringing a point that I made at the start of the trial and which Ramsay also made later on: the prosecution presented Zimmerman's prior statements so that they could attack them- the closing argument was all about making Zimmerman out to be a liar. I believe that was a tactical error. What the prosecution should have done instead is not offered any of Zimmerman's statements- that might have forced the defense to put Zimmerman on the stand in order to relate his narrative, and the prosecution may have won the case during the cross-examination.

If Zimmerman is acquitted, then this decision by the prosecution may be a pivotal reason.

Give it up. He wasn't taking the stand.

Then he would have been convicted. If the prosecution hadn't offered Zimmerman's narrative, and Zimmerman refused to take the stand, he would have been convicted rather easily IMO.

Give it up means give up. Not try harder.

Exactly Tim., it is what it is. We will all know how this turns out soon enough. Guessing should haves and would haves does not a lick of good.

However, here's one for you: If the races are reversed and Zimmerman is black and Martin Hispanic and all the events go forward as they have right now, does Al Sharpton and his followers claim this is just a case of a black man being railroaded by the justice system and being overcharged??

I am interested In hearing what you say about that scenario (seriously, not being a jerk here).

 

[PinkydaPimp]

Anyone have a link to the defense closing arguments, rebuttal and jury instructions?

 

[timschochet]

One of the CNN lawyers is bringing a point that I made at the start of the trial and which Ramsay also made later on: the prosecution presented Zimmerman's prior statements so that they could attack them- the closing argument was all about making Zimmerman out to be a liar. I believe that was a tactical error. What the prosecution should have done instead is not offered any of Zimmerman's statements- that might have forced the defense to put Zimmerman on the stand in order to relate his narrative, and the prosecution may have won the case during the cross-examination.

If Zimmerman is acquitted, then this decision by the prosecution may be a pivotal reason.

Give it up. He wasn't taking the stand.

Then he would have been convicted. If the prosecution hadn't offered Zimmerman's narrative, and Zimmerman refused to take the stand, he would have been convicted rather easily IMO.

Give it up means give up. Not try harder.

Exactly Tim., it is what it is. We will all know how this turns out soon enough. Guessing should haves and would haves does not a lick of good.However, here's one for you: If the races are reversed and Zimmerman is black and Martin Hispanic and all the events go forward as they have right now, does Al Sharpton and his followers claim this is just a case of a black man being railroaded by the justice system and being overcharged??

I am interested In hearing what you say about that scenario (seriously, not being a jerk here).

Of course. Al Sharpton is a publicity thug and the worst kind of race baiter. But I would add that if Zimmerman was black, most of the conservatives who have been so vocal in this thread would be silent.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

Can we get the post leaders of this thread?

Bigboy10182000 		8

quality > quantity

 

[Slapdash]

Can we get the post leaders of this thread?

Carolina Hustler 2160 Christo 1697 timschochet 1693 BustedKnuckles 1372 jon_mx 1267 Jojo the circus boy 1033 The Commish 496 Chaos Commish 490 BigSteelThrill 457

 

[parasaurolophus]

One of the CNN lawyers is bringing a point that I made at the start of the trial and which Ramsay also made later on: the prosecution presented Zimmerman's prior statements so that they could attack them- the closing argument was all about making Zimmerman out to be a liar. I believe that was a tactical error. What the prosecution should have done instead is not offered any of Zimmerman's statements- that might have forced the defense to put Zimmerman on the stand in order to relate his narrative, and the prosecution may have won the case during the cross-examination.

If Zimmerman is acquitted, then this decision by the prosecution may be a pivotal reason.

Give it up. He wasn't taking the stand.

Then he would have been convicted. If the prosecution hadn't offered Zimmerman's narrative, and Zimmerman refused to take the stand, he would have been convicted rather easily IMO.

Give it up means give up. Not try harder.

Exactly Tim., it is what it is. We will all know how this turns out soon enough. Guessing should haves and would haves does not a lick of good.However, here's one for you: If the races are reversed and Zimmerman is black and Martin Hispanic and all the events go forward as they have right now, does Al Sharpton and his followers claim this is just a case of a black man being railroaded by the justice system and being overcharged??

I am interested In hearing what you say about that scenario (seriously, not being a jerk here).

Of course. Al Sharpton is a publicity thug and the worst kind of race baiter.But I would add that if Zimmerman was black, most of the conservatives who have been so vocal in this thread would be silent.

Because they would have never heard about it because the race baiters wouldnt have pushed it to a national issue.

 

[avoiding injuries]

One of the CNN lawyers is bringing a point that I made at the start of the trial and which Ramsay also made later on: the prosecution presented Zimmerman's prior statements so that they could attack them- the closing argument was all about making Zimmerman out to be a liar. I believe that was a tactical error. What the prosecution should have done instead is not offered any of Zimmerman's statements- that might have forced the defense to put Zimmerman on the stand in order to relate his narrative, and the prosecution may have won the case during the cross-examination.

If Zimmerman is acquitted, then this decision by the prosecution may be a pivotal reason.

Give it up. He wasn't taking the stand.

Then he would have been convicted. If the prosecution hadn't offered Zimmerman's narrative, and Zimmerman refused to take the stand, he would have been convicted rather easily IMO.

Give it up means give up. Not try harder.

Exactly Tim., it is what it is. We will all know how this turns out soon enough. Guessing should haves and would haves does not a lick of good.However, here's one for you: If the races are reversed and Zimmerman is black and Martin Hispanic and all the events go forward as they have right now, does Al Sharpton and his followers claim this is just a case of a black man being railroaded by the justice system and being overcharged??

I am interested In hearing what you say about that scenario (seriously, not being a jerk here).

Of course. Al Sharpton is a publicity thug and the worst kind of race baiter.But I would add that if Zimmerman was black, most of the conservatives who have been so vocal in this thread would be silent.

Because they would have never heard about it because the race baiters wouldnt have pushed it to a national issue.

And the media wouldn't have spun all of the facts to fit a narrative they wanted to tell. Gotta love the buts and what ifs...

 

[Joe McGee]

Can we get the post leaders of this thread?

Carolina Hustler 2160 Christo 1697 timschochet 1693 BustedKnuckles 1372 jon_mx 1267 Jojo the circus boy 1033 The Commish 496 Chaos Commish 490 BigSteelThrill 457

I knew there was a reason I felt that Christo and timschochet were similar.

 

[CurlyNight]

The jury is back deliberating tomorrow 9 am. Maybe we'll get a verdict before the weekend is out.

 

[timschochet]

One of the CNN lawyers is bringing a point that I made at the start of the trial and which Ramsay also made later on: the prosecution presented Zimmerman's prior statements so that they could attack them- the closing argument was all about making Zimmerman out to be a liar. I believe that was a tactical error. What the prosecution should have done instead is not offered any of Zimmerman's statements- that might have forced the defense to put Zimmerman on the stand in order to relate his narrative, and the prosecution may have won the case during the cross-examination.

If Zimmerman is acquitted, then this decision by the prosecution may be a pivotal reason.

Give it up. He wasn't taking the stand.

Then he would have been convicted. If the prosecution hadn't offered Zimmerman's narrative, and Zimmerman refused to take the stand, he would have been convicted rather easily IMO.

Give it up means give up. Not try harder.

Exactly Tim., it is what it is. We will all know how this turns out soon enough. Guessing should haves and would haves does not a lick of good.However, here's one for you: If the races are reversed and Zimmerman is black and Martin Hispanic and all the events go forward as they have right now, does Al Sharpton and his followers claim this is just a case of a black man being railroaded by the justice system and being overcharged??

I am interested In hearing what you say about that scenario (seriously, not being a jerk here).

Of course. Al Sharpton is a publicity thug and the worst kind of race baiter.But I would add that if Zimmerman was black, most of the conservatives who have been so vocal in this thread would be silent.

Because they would have never heard about it because the race baiters wouldnt have pushed it to a national issue.

If the story was just as famous they'd be silent- or demanding a conviction.

 

[timschochet]

Can we get the post leaders of this thread?

Carolina Hustler 2160 Christo 1697 timschochet 1693 BustedKnuckles 1372 jon_mx 1267 Jojo the circus boy 1033 The Commish 496 Chaos Commish 490 BigSteelThrill 457

I knew there was a reason I felt that Christo and timschochet were similar.

Thank you. Christo can be ascerbic and abrasive, but it's still a great compliment to be compared to him.