Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch (3 Viewers)

[Charlie Frown]

One of the CNN lawyers is bringing a point that I made at the start of the trial and which Ramsay also made later on: the prosecution presented Zimmerman's prior statements so that they could attack them- the closing argument was all about making Zimmerman out to be a liar. I believe that was a tactical error. What the prosecution should have done instead is not offered any of Zimmerman's statements- that might have forced the defense to put Zimmerman on the stand in order to relate his narrative, and the prosecution may have won the case during the cross-examination.

If Zimmerman is acquitted, then this decision by the prosecution may be a pivotal reason.

Give it up. He wasn't taking the stand.

Then he would have been convicted. If the prosecution hadn't offered Zimmerman's narrative, and Zimmerman refused to take the stand, he would have been convicted rather easily IMO.

Give it up means give up. Not try harder.

Exactly Tim., it is what it is. We will all know how this turns out soon enough. Guessing should haves and would haves does not a lick of good.However, here's one for you: If the races are reversed and Zimmerman is black and Martin Hispanic and all the events go forward as they have right now, does Al Sharpton and his followers claim this is just a case of a black man being railroaded by the justice system and being overcharged??

I am interested In hearing what you say about that scenario (seriously, not being a jerk here).

Of course. Al Sharpton is a publicity thug and the worst kind of race baiter.But I would add that if Zimmerman was black, most of the conservatives who have been so vocal in this thread would be silent.

So most conservatives here are racist?

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Yeah, I'm sure the guys at FOX News would sit quietly.

 

[Zow]

No FFA Poll w/ Guilty 2nd Degree, Guilty Manslaughter, Not Guilty options?

There is no way to limit the poll to people who have watched the entire trial so there really isn't a point.

 

[parasaurolophus]

One of the CNN lawyers is bringing a point that I made at the start of the trial and which Ramsay also made later on: the prosecution presented Zimmerman's prior statements so that they could attack them- the closing argument was all about making Zimmerman out to be a liar. I believe that was a tactical error. What the prosecution should have done instead is not offered any of Zimmerman's statements- that might have forced the defense to put Zimmerman on the stand in order to relate his narrative, and the prosecution may have won the case during the cross-examination.

If Zimmerman is acquitted, then this decision by the prosecution may be a pivotal reason.

Give it up. He wasn't taking the stand.

Then he would have been convicted. If the prosecution hadn't offered Zimmerman's narrative, and Zimmerman refused to take the stand, he would have been convicted rather easily IMO.

Give it up means give up. Not try harder.

Exactly Tim., it is what it is. We will all know how this turns out soon enough. Guessing should haves and would haves does not a lick of good.However, here's one for you: If the races are reversed and Zimmerman is black and Martin Hispanic and all the events go forward as they have right now, does Al Sharpton and his followers claim this is just a case of a black man being railroaded by the justice system and being overcharged??

I am interested In hearing what you say about that scenario (seriously, not being a jerk here).

Of course. Al Sharpton is a publicity thug and the worst kind of race baiter.But I would add that if Zimmerman was black, most of the conservatives who have been so vocal in this thread would be silent.

Because they would have never heard about it because the race baiters wouldnt have pushed it to a national issue.

If the story was just as famous they'd be silent- or demanding a conviction.

Agree to disagree.

 

[Zow]

One of the CNN lawyers is bringing a point that I made at the start of the trial and which Ramsay also made later on: the prosecution presented Zimmerman's prior statements so that they could attack them- the closing argument was all about making Zimmerman out to be a liar. I believe that was a tactical error. What the prosecution should have done instead is not offered any of Zimmerman's statements- that might have forced the defense to put Zimmerman on the stand in order to relate his narrative, and the prosecution may have won the case during the cross-examination.

If Zimmerman is acquitted, then this decision by the prosecution may be a pivotal reason.

Give it up. He wasn't taking the stand.

Then he would have been convicted. If the prosecution hadn't offered Zimmerman's narrative, and Zimmerman refused to take the stand, he would have been convicted rather easily IMO.

Had the prosecution not done so, then I imagine Zimmerman would have had to testify. Usually in self defense cases the defendant has no "choice" but to testify.

Hence my comment that things must have gone well for the defense because Zimmerman had the luxury of choosing not to testify and still have been able to make a prima facie case for self defense.

But again, I haven't watched the trial so I don't know anything.

 

[timschochet]

One of the CNN lawyers is bringing a point that I made at the start of the trial and which Ramsay also made later on: the prosecution presented Zimmerman's prior statements so that they could attack them- the closing argument was all about making Zimmerman out to be a liar. I believe that was a tactical error. What the prosecution should have done instead is not offered any of Zimmerman's statements- that might have forced the defense to put Zimmerman on the stand in order to relate his narrative, and the prosecution may have won the case during the cross-examination.

If Zimmerman is acquitted, then this decision by the prosecution may be a pivotal reason.

Give it up. He wasn't taking the stand.

Then he would have been convicted. If the prosecution hadn't offered Zimmerman's narrative, and Zimmerman refused to take the stand, he would have been convicted rather easily IMO.

Give it up means give up. Not try harder.

Exactly Tim., it is what it is. We will all know how this turns out soon enough. Guessing should haves and would haves does not a lick of good.However, here's one for you: If the races are reversed and Zimmerman is black and Martin Hispanic and all the events go forward as they have right now, does Al Sharpton and his followers claim this is just a case of a black man being railroaded by the justice system and being overcharged??

I am interested In hearing what you say about that scenario (seriously, not being a jerk here).

Of course. Al Sharpton is a publicity thug and the worst kind of race baiter.But I would add that if Zimmerman was black, most of the conservatives who have been so vocal in this thread would be silent.

So most conservatives here are racist?

I didn't write that, nor did I imply that, not do I believe that. What I believe is that most conservatives are sick of hearing about racism, sick and tired of always hearing how they're supposed to feel guilty about historical situations they had nothing to do with, and this makes them often inclined to side with whoever gets accused of racism in these situations.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

One of the CNN lawyers is bringing a point that I made at the start of the trial and which Ramsay also made later on: the prosecution presented Zimmerman's prior statements so that they could attack them- the closing argument was all about making Zimmerman out to be a liar. I believe that was a tactical error. What the prosecution should have done instead is not offered any of Zimmerman's statements- that might have forced the defense to put Zimmerman on the stand in order to relate his narrative, and the prosecution may have won the case during the cross-examination.

If Zimmerman is acquitted, then this decision by the prosecution may be a pivotal reason.

Their entire case was based on:

"These #######s always get away"

"These ####### punks"

How do they get at depraved mind otherwise?

He said those things and then he killed a kid walking to his dad's house. Not really hard to get to that conclusion. What did TM have against GZ? All we know is he was winning a fistfight until GZ shot him through the heart.

I mean that's basically it from a high level. GZ and TM had the same right to defend themselves. I can't fathom someone being 100% sure GZ is a well-meaning guy who defended his life against a brutal attacker. Give me a break.

Do you read the posts you reply to?

Tim is arguing the State ####ed up by citing Zimmerman's statements in order to force him to take the stand.

I posted the two 'strongest' statements the State cited from Zimmerman which they have been banking on to fulfill the depraved mind/ill-will component of Murder 2, they opened their opening statement with them in fact. Without those statements (nor any of Zimmerman's other statements) they wouldn't have a prayer of proving M2.

 

[Zow]

One of the CNN lawyers is bringing a point that I made at the start of the trial and which Ramsay also made later on: the prosecution presented Zimmerman's prior statements so that they could attack them- the closing argument was all about making Zimmerman out to be a liar. I believe that was a tactical error. What the prosecution should have done instead is not offered any of Zimmerman's statements- that might have forced the defense to put Zimmerman on the stand in order to relate his narrative, and the prosecution may have won the case during the cross-examination.

If Zimmerman is acquitted, then this decision by the prosecution may be a pivotal reason.

My guess is that the prosecution gambled* that Zimmerman would testify** and they lost. I definitely agree that it came back to bite them.

*The defense does not have to disclose whether the Defendant is going to testify. As we all saw (except for me, who hasn't seen anything and therefore knows nothing) the defendant need not make that decision until the last minute.

** I don't blame them though on the gamble. I'd estimate that defendants testify in a vast majority of self defense cases. Also, Zimmerman seems like the type of guy who would want to ram home his reasoning to a jury. I'm sure his lawyers talked him out of it and I commend them on that. Score one for the good guys.

 

[squistion]

Exactly Tim., it is what it is. We will all know how this turns out soon enough. Guessing should haves and would haves does not a lick of good.However, here's one for you: If the races are reversed and Zimmerman is black and Martin Hispanic and all the events go forward as they have right now, does Al Sharpton and his followers claim this is just a case of a black man being railroaded by the justice system and being overcharged??

I am interested In hearing what you say about that scenario (seriously, not being a jerk here).

Of course. Al Sharpton is a publicity thug and the worst kind of race baiter.But I would add that if Zimmerman was black, most of the conservatives who have been so vocal in this thread would be silent.

Hell, there wouldn't even be a thread if Zimmerman was black and Martin a Hispanic (assuming you accept that racial designation for him). Maybe I have missed it, but I don't recall seeing any conservative rage here in the past that involved minority on minority crime.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Exactly Tim., it is what it is. We will all know how this turns out soon enough. Guessing should haves and would haves does not a lick of good.However, here's one for you: If the races are reversed and Zimmerman is black and Martin Hispanic and all the events go forward as they have right now, does Al Sharpton and his followers claim this is just a case of a black man being railroaded by the justice system and being overcharged??

I am interested In hearing what you say about that scenario (seriously, not being a jerk here).

Of course. Al Sharpton is a publicity thug and the worst kind of race baiter.But I would add that if Zimmerman was black, most of the conservatives who have been so vocal in this thread would be silent.

Hell, there wouldn't even be a thread if Zimmerman was black and Martin a Hispanic (assuming you accept that racial designation for him). Maybe I have missed it, but I don't recall seeing any conservative rage here in the past that involved minority on minority crime.

Other than this one?

 

[Zow]

Exactly Tim., it is what it is. We will all know how this turns out soon enough. Guessing should haves and would haves does not a lick of good.However, here's one for you: If the races are reversed and Zimmerman is black and Martin Hispanic and all the events go forward as they have right now, does Al Sharpton and his followers claim this is just a case of a black man being railroaded by the justice system and being overcharged??

I am interested In hearing what you say about that scenario (seriously, not being a jerk here).

Of course. Al Sharpton is a publicity thug and the worst kind of race baiter.But I would add that if Zimmerman was black, most of the conservatives who have been so vocal in this thread would be silent.

Hell, there wouldn't even be a thread if Zimmerman was black and Martin a Hispanic (assuming you accept that racial designation for him). Maybe I have missed it, but I don't recall seeing any conservative rage here in the past that involved minority on minority crime.

Other than this one?

 

[Worm]

The jury is back deliberating tomorrow 9 am. Maybe we'll get a verdict before the weekend is out.

Is weekend deliberation normal?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

The jury is back deliberating tomorrow 9 am. Maybe we'll get a verdict before the weekend is out.

Is weekend deliberation normal?

I think so for cases like this. Given how long this jury has been tied up with this case, it would be borderline-unjust not to let them deliberate over the weekend.

 

[MaxThreshold]

Exactly Tim., it is what it is. We will all know how this turns out soon enough. Guessing should haves and would haves does not a lick of good.However, here's one for you: If the races are reversed and Zimmerman is black and Martin Hispanic and all the events go forward as they have right now, does Al Sharpton and his followers claim this is just a case of a black man being railroaded by the justice system and being overcharged??

I am interested In hearing what you say about that scenario (seriously, not being a jerk here).

Of course. Al Sharpton is a publicity thug and the worst kind of race baiter.But I would add that if Zimmerman was black, most of the conservatives who have been so vocal in this thread would be silent.

Hell, there wouldn't even be a thread if Zimmerman was black and Martin a Hispanic (assuming you accept that racial designation for him). Maybe I have missed it, but I don't recall seeing any conservative rage here in the past that involved minority on minority crime.

Haven't seen any liberals rage about it either. Maybe I missed it (other than this one, that is), but could you provide me a link to the post you started expressing rage about minority-on-minority crime? TIA!

 

[squistion]

Exactly Tim., it is what it is. We will all know how this turns out soon enough. Guessing should haves and would haves does not a lick of good.However, here's one for you: If the races are reversed and Zimmerman is black and Martin Hispanic and all the events go forward as they have right now, does Al Sharpton and his followers claim this is just a case of a black man being railroaded by the justice system and being overcharged??

I am interested In hearing what you say about that scenario (seriously, not being a jerk here).

Of course. Al Sharpton is a publicity thug and the worst kind of race baiter.But I would add that if Zimmerman was black, most of the conservatives who have been so vocal in this thread would be silent.

Hell, there wouldn't even be a thread if Zimmerman was black and Martin a Hispanic (assuming you accept that racial designation for him). Maybe I have missed it, but I don't recall seeing any conservative rage here in the past that involved minority on minority crime.

Other than this one?

This one would not exist, because it probably wouldn't even be a Florida story, let alone a national one.

 

[Bob Magaw]

"...expletive punks, these expletives all get away..."

the operative word above to me is they... was there ever an explanation on what he meant?

young? african american? potential burglar suspect, independent of age or race?

i heard early on that zimmerman had called before... did he ever call in on a incident in which an actual crime was committed (like burglary)?

do we know how many previous calls he made to police?

some reports tried to determine if their was an apparent racial profiling bias in percentage of his calls, did anything turn up during this avenue of the investigation (i think answer is no)?

IF something turned up (seeming bias in call ins), could that have been accounted for by the composition of neighborhood... if 2/3 of his calls were about african americans, and the population was comprised of 2/3 african americans, than that might not reflect a bias but the reality of neighborhood composition.

 

[Zow]

The jury is back deliberating tomorrow 9 am. Maybe we'll get a verdict before the weekend is out.

Is weekend deliberation normal?

Not really. But as Ivan pointed out, this was a case where the jury was sequestered for a long time. The judge has a legit interest in getting them home.

 

[Dr Oadi]

What's better a weekend riot or a Monday riot?

 

[T Bell]

Here is how I would rebut MOM's close (which has been pretty good when I've watched it).

"There were only two witnesses to the totality of this incident. One of them is George Zimmerman. The only other possible witness, unfortunately, is Trayvon Martin. He can't tell you what happened. But you are not obligated to accept the self-serving, unsworn, characterization of this confrontation offered by George Zimmerman. We have presented ample evidence that his account is simply not credible.

And absent any credible, unbiased account of this entire confrontation, we are left with the same facts we have had at the beginning. A trained, armed, larger defendant fatally shot an unarmed, smaller teenage victim. Reasonable doubt is not the absence of all doubt. And the defense has offered no credible evidence that Mr. Zimmerman feared death or great bodily harm, much less that reasonably cautious and prudent person in his situation would have."

And as a juror, back in deliberations, this argument would work for me, except for John Good's testimony. Good testified that Martin was on top of Zimmerman, punching him. In the final analysis, that should raise the absence of all doubt to reasonable doubt, and I would still be forced to acquit.

"Good saw 7-8 seconds of Martin punching Zimmerman. We know those punches did not seriously injure Zimmerman (who refused medical attention). And we know that Good, upon seeing that, called for the two to stop and went to call 911. If Good perceived Zimmerman to be in real danger of death or great bodily harm, wouldn't he have done more? Wouldn't he have broken up the fight?"

No. That part of the argument doesn't work for me, I think many jurors would frown at that too.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

What's better a weekend riot or a Monday riot?

Depends on how hot it is outside

 

[17seconds]

Here is how I would rebut MOM's close (which has been pretty good when I've watched it).

"There were only two witnesses to the totality of this incident. One of them is George Zimmerman. The only other possible witness, unfortunately, is Trayvon Martin. He can't tell you what happened. But you are not obligated to accept the self-serving, unsworn, characterization of this confrontation offered by George Zimmerman. We have presented ample evidence that his account is simply not credible.

And absent any credible, unbiased account of this entire confrontation, we are left with the same facts we have had at the beginning. A trained, armed, larger defendant fatally shot an unarmed, smaller teenage victim. Reasonable doubt is not the absence of all doubt. And the defense has offered no credible evidence that Mr. Zimmerman feared death or great bodily harm, much less that reasonably cautious and prudent person in his situation would have."

And as a juror, back in deliberations, this argument would work for me, except for John Good's testimony. Good testified that Martin was on top of Zimmerman, punching him. In the final analysis, that should raise the absence of all doubt to reasonable doubt, and I would still be forced to acquit.

"Good saw 7-8 seconds of Martin punching Zimmerman. We know those punches did not seriously injure Zimmerman (who refused medical attention). And we know that Good, upon seeing that, called for the two to stop and went to call 911. If Good perceived Zimmerman to be in real danger of death or great bodily harm, wouldn't he have done more? Wouldn't he have broken up the fight?"

No. That part of the argument doesn't work for me, I think many jurors would frown at that too.

I also don't think you can draw anything from that. Some people might choose to call 911 if they saw a really violent fight but might try to break up a mild scuffle.

 

[MaxThreshold]

What's better a weekend riot or a Monday riot?

I prefer a Quiet Riot instead.

 

[T Bell]

One of the CNN lawyers is bringing a point that I made at the start of the trial and which Ramsay also made later on: the prosecution presented Zimmerman's prior statements so that they could attack them- the closing argument was all about making Zimmerman out to be a liar. I believe that was a tactical error. What the prosecution should have done instead is not offered any of Zimmerman's statements- that might have forced the defense to put Zimmerman on the stand in order to relate his narrative, and the prosecution may have won the case during the cross-examination.

If Zimmerman is acquitted, then this decision by the prosecution may be a pivotal reason.

Give it up. He wasn't taking the stand.

Then he would have been convicted. If the prosecution hadn't offered Zimmerman's narrative, and Zimmerman refused to take the stand, he would have been convicted rather easily IMO.

Had the prosecution not done so, then I imagine Zimmerman would have had to testify. Usually in self defense cases the defendant has no "choice" but to testify.

Hence my comment that things must have gone well for the defense because Zimmerman had the luxury of choosing not to testify and still have been able to make a prima facie case for self defense.

But again, I haven't watched the trial so I don't know anything.

...and/or they decided that Zimmerman makes a horrible witness, which could well be true too.

 

[Christo]

Can we get the post leaders of this thread?

Carolina Hustler 2160 Christo 1697 timschochet 1693 BustedKnuckles 1372 jon_mx 1267 Jojo the circus boy 1033 The Commish 496 Chaos Commish 490 BigSteelThrill 457

I knew there was a reason I felt that Christo and timschochet were similar.

Who are you?

 

[squistion]

Can we get the post leaders of this thread?

Carolina Hustler 2160 Christo 1697 timschochet 1693 BustedKnuckles 1372 jon_mx 1267 Jojo the circus boy 1033 The Commish 496 Chaos Commish 490 BigSteelThrill 457

I knew there was a reason I felt that Christo and timschochet were similar.

Who are you?

Those who are using an alias rarely admit it.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Can we get the post leaders of this thread?

Carolina Hustler 2160 Christo 1697 timschochet 1693 BustedKnuckles 1372 jon_mx 1267 Jojo the circus boy 1033 The Commish 496 Chaos Commish 490 BigSteelThrill 457

I knew there was a reason I felt that Christo and timschochet were similar.

Who are you?

Those who are using an alias rarely admit it.

 

[Joe McGee]

Can we get the post leaders of this thread?

Carolina Hustler 2160 Christo 1697 timschochet 1693 BustedKnuckles 1372 jon_mx 1267 Jojo the circus boy 1033 The Commish 496 Chaos Commish 490 BigSteelThrill 457

I knew there was a reason I felt that Christo and timschochet were similar.

Who are you?

Those who are using an alias rarely admit it.

I'm not an alias. From what I've seen of this thread, Christo and Tim seem to occupy opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to the quality of their posts in this thread. I find Christo's posts to be intelligent and worthwhile while Tim's are, well Tim's. That is all.

 

[TwinTurbo]

I didn't watch the entire trial, but did the defense ever focus on the point that only one shot was fired? If fits with the narrative that he did what was necessary to protect his life vs. the hate in his heart narrative from the prosecution.

I do think Zimmerman may have had the gun out before the altercation and he probably would have never gotten out of the car if he didn't have a gun. But the prosecution didn't prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. Despite the tragedy and emotion around it, I don't see how you can get to 2nd degree or even manslaughter. There are just too many unknowns. But I suspect the jury will return with the compromise verdict of manslaughter.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

MANSLAUGHTER ALL DAY LONG

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

Jurors won't be told the minimum sentence and it would be improper for them to try to find out.

What if the juror knows going in?

 

[jamny]

I didn't watch the entire trial, but did the defense ever focus on the point that only one shot was fired? If fits with the narrative that he did what was necessary to protect his life vs. the hate in his heart narrative from the prosecution.

I do think Zimmerman may have had the gun out before the altercation and he probably would have never gotten out of the car if he didn't have a gun. But the prosecution didn't prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. Despite the tragedy and emotion around it, I don't see how you can get to 2nd degree or even manslaughter. There are just too many unknowns. But I suspect the jury will return with the compromise verdict of manslaughter.

Your first paragraph is a good point and was never addressed during the trial. But there is no way GZ had the gun out before the altercation. He might not have gotten out of the car without it but that doesn't mean anything to the case, imo. He was legally allowed to posses the gun.

 

[SofaKings]

What's better a weekend riot or a Monday riot?

Depends on how hot it is outside

 

[TwinTurbo]

I didn't watch the entire trial, but did the defense ever focus on the point that only one shot was fired? If fits with the narrative that he did what was necessary to protect his life vs. the hate in his heart narrative from the prosecution.

I do think Zimmerman may have had the gun out before the altercation and he probably would have never gotten out of the car if he didn't have a gun. But the prosecution didn't prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. Despite the tragedy and emotion around it, I don't see how you can get to 2nd degree or even manslaughter. There are just too many unknowns. But I suspect the jury will return with the compromise verdict of manslaughter.

Your first paragraph is a good point and was never addressed during the trial. But there is no way GZ had the gun out before the altercation. He might not have gotten out of the car without it but that doesn't mean anything to the case, imo. He was legally allowed to posses the gun.

Yes I think GZ's account is as credible as the prosecution's account. That's why I think the logical verdict is not guilty. You simply cannot send a guy to jail for several years to life based on what the prosecution presented. That would also be a tragedy. I do think the fact that he only fired one shot also supports his account and I would have brought that up in the closing argument.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

What's better a weekend riot or a Monday riot?

Depends on how hot it is outside

extreme heat makes M`Frs crazy yo

 

[The Commish]

I'm still interested in an explanation of how he could be raining down punches MMA style, trying to suffocate him and grabbing for his gun all at the same time. No one's wanted to tackle that one yet.

No one ever stipulated that all that happened simultaneously, I don't believe?

Again...this wasn't a prolonged fight. That's a lot to happen in a very short period of time. That's my ultimate point. I just don't think it's possible. Doesn't matter. We have no evidence of Martin going for his gun other than Zimmerman. We have what appears to be a muffled voice on the one call, but that could have been things other than attempted suffocation.

Not really sure why you keep going back to this. It all could have happened in the span of 20-30 seconds. Stop and think about that timeframe and what it could have been like.

One MIGHT be able to go through the motions of each, but you aren't legitimately concerned about being suffocated if someone tries for 10 seconds. I'm not concerned about dying if someone is trying to punch me for another 10 seconds.

 

[lod01]

What's better a weekend riot or a Monday riot?

Weekend. Less people working, more rioters, easier to blend in.

 

[lod01]

If Zimmerman is found guilty, does Frank Taaffe riot? Dude is really unstable.

 

[jamny]

I'm still interested in an explanation of how he could be raining down punches MMA style, trying to suffocate him and grabbing for his gun all at the same time. No one's wanted to tackle that one yet.

No one ever stipulated that all that happened simultaneously, I don't believe?

Again...this wasn't a prolonged fight. That's a lot to happen in a very short period of time. That's my ultimate point. I just don't think it's possible. Doesn't matter. We have no evidence of Martin going for his gun other than Zimmerman. We have what appears to be a muffled voice on the one call, but that could have been things other than attempted suffocation.

Not really sure why you keep going back to this. It all could have happened in the span of 20-30 seconds. Stop and think about that timeframe and what it could have been like.

One MIGHT be able to go through the motions of each, but you aren't legitimately concerned about being suffocated if someone tries for 10 seconds. I'm not concerned about dying if someone is trying to punch me for another 10 seconds.

I completely agree and I think we've been on the same page for a while now. But that still doesn't mean all those moves weren't possible during that time frame and that's why I was wondering why you keep mentioning it. Personally, I think Zimmerman shot him because he was getting his ### kicked and it was a way to make it stop. I don't think he meant to kill Trayvon but that's what happened. To me there should be some kind of negligent homicide or something but as the law is stated, he should walk.

 

[financewonk]

If Zimmerman is found guilty, does Frank Taaffe riot? Dude is really unstable.

What did he do now?

Did you see the interview that he did with Nancy Grace the other night? Man, that interview got out of hand in a hurry. She cut off his mic when he said that TM was on drugs.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

I'm still interested in an explanation of how he could be raining down punches MMA style, trying to suffocate him and grabbing for his gun all at the same time. No one's wanted to tackle that one yet.

No one ever stipulated that all that happened simultaneously, I don't believe?

Again...this wasn't a prolonged fight. That's a lot to happen in a very short period of time. That's my ultimate point. I just don't think it's possible. Doesn't matter. We have no evidence of Martin going for his gun other than Zimmerman. We have what appears to be a muffled voice on the one call, but that could have been things other than attempted suffocation.

Not really sure why you keep going back to this. It all could have happened in the span of 20-30 seconds. Stop and think about that timeframe and what it could have been like.

One MIGHT be able to go through the motions of each, but you aren't legitimately concerned about being suffocated if someone tries for 10 seconds. I'm not concerned about dying if someone is trying to punch me for another 10 seconds.

i think zimmy panicked when trey fought back and he pulled his gun and had it out during the entire scuffle ...thats why trey didnt have any marks on him. So trey was trying to save his own life by hitting and hopefully knockin zimmy out so he cant get shot . Zimmy finally got a shot off and just embellished his story to fit his self defense theory.When someone is making up lies they leave a lot of holes . Anyone who ever been in more than 1 fight knows that you arent trying to kill someone ,you`re just trying to win the fight .

 

[jamny]

I'm still interested in an explanation of how he could be raining down punches MMA style, trying to suffocate him and grabbing for his gun all at the same time. No one's wanted to tackle that one yet.

No one ever stipulated that all that happened simultaneously, I don't believe?

Again...this wasn't a prolonged fight. That's a lot to happen in a very short period of time. That's my ultimate point. I just don't think it's possible. Doesn't matter. We have no evidence of Martin going for his gun other than Zimmerman. We have what appears to be a muffled voice on the one call, but that could have been things other than attempted suffocation.

Not really sure why you keep going back to this. It all could have happened in the span of 20-30 seconds. Stop and think about that timeframe and what it could have been like.

One MIGHT be able to go through the motions of each, but you aren't legitimately concerned about being suffocated if someone tries for 10 seconds. I'm not concerned about dying if someone is trying to punch me for another 10 seconds.

i think zimmy panicked when trey fought back and he pulled his gun and had it out during the entire scuffle ...thats why trey didnt have any marks on him. So trey was trying to save his own life by hitting and hopefully knockin zimmy out so he cant get shot . Zimmy finally got a shot off and just embellished his story to fit his self defense theory.When someone is making up lies they leave a lot of holes . Anyone who ever been in more than 1 fight knows that you arent trying to kill someone ,you`re just trying to win the fight .

Trayvon had injuries to his knuckles. If Zimmerman took out the gun early there would have been a struggle for it, not a beatdown of GZ. I don't think TM ever knew GZ had a gun until the end.

 

[lod01]

If Zimmerman is found guilty, does Frank Taaffe riot? Dude is really unstable.

What did he do now?

Did you see the interview that he did with Nancy Grace the other night? Man, that interview got out of hand in a hurry. She cut off his mic when he said that TM was on drugs.

He tried a lame attempt to explain the viewing of the gun and some sort of MMA tactic that Martin supposedly used on Zimmerman, all the while talking really loud.

The N. Disgrace - Taaffe battle was excellent. Those two clowns a re made for each other.

 

[Mr Two Cents]

The other thing I wonder about with the fight scenario is if George heard that 911 was being called, why didn't he just try to protect himself until the cops arrived? His injuries weren't life threatening to the point where he shot Trayvon, couldn't he have just continued to protect himself and keep screaming while he waited a few minutes for the police to arrive? Actually I know the answer to this is that no one would count on the police arriving in a timely manner, but it is something to consider. Also, did Good testify whether he could see George doing anything to protect himself? If his arms weren't pinned down by Trayvon, wouldn't he try to punch/gouge Trayvon, or cover his own head to protect against the punches from Trayvon? If the prosecution didn't ask Good about this it was a mistake.

Have you ever had someone mount you and apply their body weight against your broken nose as they try to suffocate you to death?People keep coming into the thread assuming the injuries Zimmerman had sustained up to that point HAD to be life threatening injuries, i.e. Zimmerman had to be on the verge of dying. This has been pointed out countless times as being wrong, that is not required in order to claim self-defense in order to be justified in using deadly force. Zimmerman did not need a scratch on him to support claiming self defense.

You're mischaracterizing the argument. It's absolutely true that Zimmerman could have a great self defense claim in the absence of any injuries. If Martin had pulled at a butcher's knife and had advanced on Zimmerman, that would be a great case where there's a reasonable fear of great bodily harm without any injuries.

The argument is that the totality of facts and circumstances, including the fact that Martin was unarmed and that Zimmerman did not, in fact, sustain major injuries, supports the conclusion that a reasonably prudent and careful person probably would not have feared such injuries.

No I am not. The argument is: if Zimmerman didn't have life threatening injuries why was his use of deadly force justified as posted by roarlions, you purposefully cut out the post I was replying to. I've added it back in and bolded it for emphasis. You have a habit in this thread of moving the goal posts and quite frankly it is irritating. Your last line is a red herring, one in which you are leaving out vital facts of this case leading to a false conclusion.

Not really following this trial, but this is the first I've heard that he had life threatening injuries. How long was he in the hospital? Life support at all? Surgeries?

If this is true, I can see the self defense argument.

Would you feel the same way if this was your daughter? What limits are you establishing for your family, dad?

So the answer is no to everything I asked?

I don't get what your question has to do with my question.

Please don't act ignorant you know exactly what what was implied by your post. That you don't "get it" is your answer.

I would think that what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

I'm still interested in an explanation of how he could be raining down punches MMA style, trying to suffocate him and grabbing for his gun all at the same time. No one's wanted to tackle that one yet.

No one ever stipulated that all that happened simultaneously, I don't believe?

Again...this wasn't a prolonged fight. That's a lot to happen in a very short period of time. That's my ultimate point. I just don't think it's possible. Doesn't matter. We have no evidence of Martin going for his gun other than Zimmerman. We have what appears to be a muffled voice on the one call, but that could have been things other than attempted suffocation.

Not really sure why you keep going back to this. It all could have happened in the span of 20-30 seconds. Stop and think about that timeframe and what it could have been like.

One MIGHT be able to go through the motions of each, but you aren't legitimately concerned about being suffocated if someone tries for 10 seconds. I'm not concerned about dying if someone is trying to punch me for another 10 seconds.

i think zimmy panicked when trey fought back and he pulled his gun and had it out during the entire scuffle ...thats why trey didnt have any marks on him. So trey was trying to save his own life by hitting and hopefully knockin zimmy out so he cant get shot . Zimmy finally got a shot off and just embellished his story to fit his self defense theory.When someone is making up lies they leave a lot of holes . Anyone who ever been in more than 1 fight knows that you arent trying to kill someone ,you`re just trying to win the fight .

Trayvon had injuries to his knuckles. If Zimmerman took out the gun early there would have been a struggle for it, not a beatdown of GZ. I don't think TM ever knew GZ had a gun until the end.

that would be why trey only had an injury to 1 hand...it wasnt a 2 fisted beat down .The other hand was occupied with holding zimmys gun hand away . Lets not forget there was no blood on treys palms ,so he couldnt have been smothering zimmy .

 

[jamny]

I'm still interested in an explanation of how he could be raining down punches MMA style, trying to suffocate him and grabbing for his gun all at the same time. No one's wanted to tackle that one yet.

No one ever stipulated that all that happened simultaneously, I don't believe?

Again...this wasn't a prolonged fight. That's a lot to happen in a very short period of time. That's my ultimate point. I just don't think it's possible. Doesn't matter. We have no evidence of Martin going for his gun other than Zimmerman. We have what appears to be a muffled voice on the one call, but that could have been things other than attempted suffocation.

Not really sure why you keep going back to this. It all could have happened in the span of 20-30 seconds. Stop and think about that timeframe and what it could have been like.

One MIGHT be able to go through the motions of each, but you aren't legitimately concerned about being suffocated if someone tries for 10 seconds. I'm not concerned about dying if someone is trying to punch me for another 10 seconds.

i think zimmy panicked when trey fought back and he pulled his gun and had it out during the entire scuffle ...thats why trey didnt have any marks on him. So trey was trying to save his own life by hitting and hopefully knockin zimmy out so he cant get shot . Zimmy finally got a shot off and just embellished his story to fit his self defense theory.When someone is making up lies they leave a lot of holes . Anyone who ever been in more than 1 fight knows that you arent trying to kill someone ,you`re just trying to win the fight .

Trayvon had injuries to his knuckles. If Zimmerman took out the gun early there would have been a struggle for it, not a beatdown of GZ. I don't think TM ever knew GZ had a gun until the end.

that would be why trey only had an injury to 1 hand...it wasnt a 2 fisted beat down .The other hand was occupied with holding zimmys gun hand away

If someone has a gun in their hand and you're in a fight all the focus turns to the gun. You would put everything into holding down the hand with the gun, not continue to rain down blows, as the witness John testified to. You're reaching if you think the gun was out for more than seconds before the shot was fired.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

I'm still interested in an explanation of how he could be raining down punches MMA style, trying to suffocate him and grabbing for his gun all at the same time. No one's wanted to tackle that one yet.

No one ever stipulated that all that happened simultaneously, I don't believe?

Again...this wasn't a prolonged fight. That's a lot to happen in a very short period of time. That's my ultimate point. I just don't think it's possible. Doesn't matter. We have no evidence of Martin going for his gun other than Zimmerman. We have what appears to be a muffled voice on the one call, but that could have been things other than attempted suffocation.

Not really sure why you keep going back to this. It all could have happened in the span of 20-30 seconds. Stop and think about that timeframe and what it could have been like.

One MIGHT be able to go through the motions of each, but you aren't legitimately concerned about being suffocated if someone tries for 10 seconds. I'm not concerned about dying if someone is trying to punch me for another 10 seconds.

i think zimmy panicked when trey fought back and he pulled his gun and had it out during the entire scuffle ...thats why trey didnt have any marks on him. So trey was trying to save his own life by hitting and hopefully knockin zimmy out so he cant get shot . Zimmy finally got a shot off and just embellished his story to fit his self defense theory.When someone is making up lies they leave a lot of holes . Anyone who ever been in more than 1 fight knows that you arent trying to kill someone ,you`re just trying to win the fight .

Trayvon had injuries to his knuckles. If Zimmerman took out the gun early there would have been a struggle for it, not a beatdown of GZ. I don't think TM ever knew GZ had a gun until the end.

that would be why trey only had an injury to 1 hand...it wasnt a 2 fisted beat down .The other hand was occupied with holding zimmys gun hand away

If someone has a gun in their hand and you're in a fight all the focus turns to the gun. You would put everything into holding down the hand with the gun, not continue to rain down blows, as the witness John testified to. You're reaching if you think the gun was out for more than seconds before the shot was fired.

i suppose you have had a gun pulled on you during a fight? Nobody knows how one will react to that happening. We can think in our heads what we might do . Its all reaction at that point. It would explain why zimmy was screaming in fear...not from being hit,but from thinking that he could lose control of the gun he could be a dead man. It would also explain how he shot trey in the chest even tho trey was sitting on him...the gun was not in its holster. Zimmy cant tell the cops that because its aggravated assault to pull a gun on someone.

 

[financewonk]

I'm still interested in an explanation of how he could be raining down punches MMA style, trying to suffocate him and grabbing for his gun all at the same time. No one's wanted to tackle that one yet.

No one ever stipulated that all that happened simultaneously, I don't believe?

Again...this wasn't a prolonged fight. That's a lot to happen in a very short period of time. That's my ultimate point. I just don't think it's possible. Doesn't matter. We have no evidence of Martin going for his gun other than Zimmerman. We have what appears to be a muffled voice on the one call, but that could have been things other than attempted suffocation.

Not really sure why you keep going back to this. It all could have happened in the span of 20-30 seconds. Stop and think about that timeframe and what it could have been like.

One MIGHT be able to go through the motions of each, but you aren't legitimately concerned about being suffocated if someone tries for 10 seconds. I'm not concerned about dying if someone is trying to punch me for another 10 seconds.

i think zimmy panicked when trey fought back and he pulled his gun and had it out during the entire scuffle ...thats why trey didnt have any marks on him. So trey was trying to save his own life by hitting and hopefully knockin zimmy out so he cant get shot . Zimmy finally got a shot off and just embellished his story to fit his self defense theory.When someone is making up lies they leave a lot of holes . Anyone who ever been in more than 1 fight knows that you arent trying to kill someone ,you`re just trying to win the fight .

It should be noted that it's not clear that GZ has been lying. A lot of experts/ legal analysts have stated that the inconsistencies in his story are consistent with what typically happens after a traumatic event, and as time passes. In fact, perhaps the most damaging testimony to the prosecution's case came from Detective Serino, when he stated that GZ's story has stayed relatively consistent, and that he believed GZ.

 

[jamny]

I'm still interested in an explanation of how he could be raining down punches MMA style, trying to suffocate him and grabbing for his gun all at the same time. No one's wanted to tackle that one yet.

No one ever stipulated that all that happened simultaneously, I don't believe?

Again...this wasn't a prolonged fight. That's a lot to happen in a very short period of time. That's my ultimate point. I just don't think it's possible. Doesn't matter. We have no evidence of Martin going for his gun other than Zimmerman. We have what appears to be a muffled voice on the one call, but that could have been things other than attempted suffocation.

Not really sure why you keep going back to this. It all could have happened in the span of 20-30 seconds. Stop and think about that timeframe and what it could have been like.

One MIGHT be able to go through the motions of each, but you aren't legitimately concerned about being suffocated if someone tries for 10 seconds. I'm not concerned about dying if someone is trying to punch me for another 10 seconds.

i think zimmy panicked when trey fought back and he pulled his gun and had it out during the entire scuffle ...thats why trey didnt have any marks on him. So trey was trying to save his own life by hitting and hopefully knockin zimmy out so he cant get shot . Zimmy finally got a shot off and just embellished his story to fit his self defense theory.When someone is making up lies they leave a lot of holes . Anyone who ever been in more than 1 fight knows that you arent trying to kill someone ,you`re just trying to win the fight .

Trayvon had injuries to his knuckles. If Zimmerman took out the gun early there would have been a struggle for it, not a beatdown of GZ. I don't think TM ever knew GZ had a gun until the end.

that would be why trey only had an injury to 1 hand...it wasnt a 2 fisted beat down .The other hand was occupied with holding zimmys gun hand away

If someone has a gun in their hand and you're in a fight all the focus turns to the gun. You would put everything into holding down the hand with the gun, not continue to rain down blows, as the witness John testified to. You're reaching if you think the gun was out for more than seconds before the shot was fired.

i suppose you have had a gun pulled on you during a fight? Nobody knows how one will react to that happening. We can think in our heads what we might do . Its all reaction at that point. It would explain why zimmy was screaming in fear...not from being hit,but from thinking that he could lose control of the gun he could be a dead man. It would also explain how he shot trey in the chest even tho trey was sitting on him...the gun was not in its holster. Zimmy cant tell the cops that because its aggravated assault to pull a gun on someone.

As the witness John testified, when Zimmerman was screaming for help, Trayvon was on top of him raining down blows with both hands. Not one hand.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

It should be noted that it's not clear that GZ has been lying.

That is why I'm not sure that the prosecutors shouldn't have instead of calling Zimmerman a liar they should have went with something like-

Zimmerman's honesty isn't on trial here, but his perspective and most of all his judgment. Martin is not dead because Zimmerman may or may not be a liar but because Zimmerman's perspective is so skewed, his judgment call so faulty that he believed he was serving the community by pursuing and ultimately shooting the skittle menace.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

De La Rionda also used water bottles to help demonstrate the position of Zimmerman and Martin and even got Good to concede that he did not actually see punches thrown and that he "only saw downward movement" of arms.