Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch (3 Viewers)

[Politician Spock]

I can't believe people are still pushing the racism / racial profiling issue with no evidence to support that narrative and lots of evidence contrary to it. I mean yeah I believe it because this is Tim and the FFA but still.

I'm not pushing the racism issue any longer. I am still pushing that GZ committed racial profiling, and that race is a central issue regarding this case. I continue to believe these are very reasonable assumptions, and despite your assertion I haven't seen any compelling evidence that argues against racial profiling.Even if GZ was not racial profiling, the perception that he was, especially among most African-Americans, is central to the national importance of this case, which is why no matter what it is STILL all about race. Furthermore, contrary to the arguments of several people here, that perception is based largely not on false reporting by the media nor on inflammatory statements by black leadership, but on a very real history of ibstitutionalized racism which all blacks are aware of and which, in terms of law enforcement and the judicial system continued into present day.

When people's assumptions are wrong, they need to be told that they are wrong. Not that they are valid.

Link to when a politician or public speaker has EVER told the public they are wrong?

The COURT told them their assumptions were wrong. Obama came out and told them that despite what the court said, their assumptions were still valid.

 

[timschochet]

Anyhow, this story should die down now- the protests won't continue. It will be forgotten in favor of a new drama UNLESS one of two things happen:

1. The Justice Department decides to prosecute George Zimmerman. Personally, I think the chances of this are nil. Obama couldn't say that outright, but he largely hinted it in his comments. If I am wrong about this and GZ is prosecuted by the Justice Department, that will be a political disaster of incredible proportions.

2. The guy who is about to go on trial in Florida for shooting some black kids who played loud music is claiming SYG. Nobody's buying it. But if somehow he gets off, and especially if it's a white jury, all hell is going to break loose.

 

[timschochet]

I can't believe people are still pushing the racism / racial profiling issue with no evidence to support that narrative and lots of evidence contrary to it. I mean yeah I believe it because this is Tim and the FFA but still.

I'm not pushing the racism issue any longer. I am still pushing that GZ committed racial profiling, and that race is a central issue regarding this case. I continue to believe these are very reasonable assumptions, and despite your assertion I haven't seen any compelling evidence that argues against racial profiling.Even if GZ was not racial profiling, the perception that he was, especially among most African-Americans, is central to the national importance of this case, which is why no matter what it is STILL all about race. Furthermore, contrary to the arguments of several people here, that perception is based largely not on false reporting by the media nor on inflammatory statements by black leadership, but on a very real history of ibstitutionalized racism which all blacks are aware of and which, in terms of law enforcement and the judicial system continued into present day.

When people's assumptions are wrong, they need to be told that they are wrong. Not that they are valid.

Link to when a politician or public speaker has EVER told the public they are wrong?

The COURT told them their assumptions were wrong. Obama came out and told them that despite what the court said, their assumptions were still valid.

Link to where he said this?

 

[timschochet]

I can't believe people are still pushing the racism / racial profiling issue with no evidence to support that narrative and lots of evidence contrary to it. I mean yeah I believe it because this is Tim and the FFA but still.

I'm not pushing the racism issue any longer. I am still pushing that GZ committed racial profiling, and that race is a central issue regarding this case. I continue to believe these are very reasonable assumptions, and despite your assertion I haven't seen any compelling evidence that argues against racial profiling.Even if GZ was not racial profiling, the perception that he was, especially among most African-Americans, is central to the national importance of this case, which is why no matter what it is STILL all about race. Furthermore, contrary to the arguments of several people here, that perception is based largely not on false reporting by the media nor on inflammatory statements by black leadership, but on a very real history of ibstitutionalized racism which all blacks are aware of and which, in terms of law enforcement and the judicial system continued into present day.

When people's assumptions are wrong, they need to be told that they are wrong. Not that they are valid.

Didn't you hear tim??????? The black community was supposed to understand that when Obama said that it was important for everyone to recognize where the reaction of the black community was coming from he was actually telling the black community they weren't being truthful.

BRILLIANT!

Not what I wrote. But thanks for playing anyhow. After you're done with "condescending" and "patronizing", you might want to look up "misinterpretation".

 

[Christo]

I can't believe people are still pushing the racism / racial profiling issue with no evidence to support that narrative and lots of evidence contrary to it. I mean yeah I believe it because this is Tim and the FFA but still.

I'm not pushing the racism issue any longer. I am still pushing that GZ committed racial profiling, and that race is a central issue regarding this case. I continue to believe these are very reasonable assumptions, and despite your assertion I haven't seen any compelling evidence that argues against racial profiling.Even if GZ was not racial profiling, the perception that he was, especially among most African-Americans, is central to the national importance of this case, which is why no matter what it is STILL all about race. Furthermore, contrary to the arguments of several people here, that perception is based largely not on false reporting by the media nor on inflammatory statements by black leadership, but on a very real history of ibstitutionalized racism which all blacks are aware of and which, in terms of law enforcement and the judicial system continued into present day.

When people's assumptions are wrong, they need to be told that they are wrong. Not that they are valid.

Didn't you hear tim??????? The black community was supposed to understand that when Obama said that it was important for everyone to recognize where the reaction of the black community was coming from he was actually telling the black community they weren't being truthful.

BRILLIANT!

Not what I wrote. But thanks for playing anyhow. After you're done with "condescending" and "patronizing", you might want to look up "misinterpretation".

 

[timschochet]

I can't believe people are still pushing the racism / racial profiling issue with no evidence to support that narrative and lots of evidence contrary to it. I mean yeah I believe it because this is Tim and the FFA but still.

I'm not pushing the racism issue any longer. I am still pushing that GZ committed racial profiling, and that race is a central issue regarding this case. I continue to believe these are very reasonable assumptions, and despite your assertion I haven't seen any compelling evidence that argues against racial profiling.Even if GZ was not racial profiling, the perception that he was, especially among most African-Americans, is central to the national importance of this case, which is why no matter what it is STILL all about race. Furthermore, contrary to the arguments of several people here, that perception is based largely not on false reporting by the media nor on inflammatory statements by black leadership, but on a very real history of ibstitutionalized racism which all blacks are aware of and which, in terms of law enforcement and the judicial system continued into present day.

When people's assumptions are wrong, they need to be told that they are wrong. Not that they are valid.

Didn't you hear tim??????? The black community was supposed to understand that when Obama said that it was important for everyone to recognize where the reaction of the black community was coming from he was actually telling the black community they weren't being truthful.

BRILLIANT!

Not what I wrote. But thanks for playing anyhow. After you're done with "condescending" and "patronizing", you might want to look up "misinterpretation".

 

[Politician Spock]

I can't believe people are still pushing the racism / racial profiling issue with no evidence to support that narrative and lots of evidence contrary to it. I mean yeah I believe it because this is Tim and the FFA but still.

I'm not pushing the racism issue any longer. I am still pushing that GZ committed racial profiling, and that race is a central issue regarding this case. I continue to believe these are very reasonable assumptions, and despite your assertion I haven't seen any compelling evidence that argues against racial profiling.Even if GZ was not racial profiling, the perception that he was, especially among most African-Americans, is central to the national importance of this case, which is why no matter what it is STILL all about race. Furthermore, contrary to the arguments of several people here, that perception is based largely not on false reporting by the media nor on inflammatory statements by black leadership, but on a very real history of ibstitutionalized racism which all blacks are aware of and which, in terms of law enforcement and the judicial system continued into present day.

When people's assumptions are wrong, they need to be told that they are wrong. Not that they are valid.

Link to when a politician or public speaker has EVER told the public they are wrong?

The COURT told them their assumptions were wrong. Obama came out and told them that despite what the court said, their assumptions were still valid.

Link to where he said this?

"And when you think about why, in the African American community at least, there’s a lot of pain around what happened here, I think it’s important to recognize that the African American community is looking at this issue through a set of experiences and a history that doesn’t go away."

He's not telling the AA community their view produced a false assumption. His telling non-AA that the AA view is valid.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Tim...i admire your tenacity...even in the face of being grossly outnumbered 10 to 1 in this thread.

 

[the moops]

if racism wasn't something that black males go through every day of their lives,

It is not every black male, and perhaps not every day, but you are living in a cave if you think that it isn't still a common occurence

 

[BustedKnuckles]

if racism wasn't something that black males go through every day of their lives,

It is not every black male, and perhaps not every day, but you are living in a cave if you think that it isn't still a common occurence

just listening to people i know (some friends ,some not) talking about black people in general...well lets say it aint pretty. Racism is alive and thriving . Anyone who says different is living under a rock.

 

[timschochet]

I can't believe people are still pushing the racism / racial profiling issue with no evidence to support that narrative and lots of evidence contrary to it. I mean yeah I believe it because this is Tim and the FFA but still.

I'm not pushing the racism issue any longer. I am still pushing that GZ committed racial profiling, and that race is a central issue regarding this case. I continue to believe these are very reasonable assumptions, and despite your assertion I haven't seen any compelling evidence that argues against racial profiling.Even if GZ was not racial profiling, the perception that he was, especially among most African-Americans, is central to the national importance of this case, which is why no matter what it is STILL all about race. Furthermore, contrary to the arguments of several people here, that perception is based largely not on false reporting by the media nor on inflammatory statements by black leadership, but on a very real history of ibstitutionalized racism which all blacks are aware of and which, in terms of law enforcement and the judicial system continued into present day.

When people's assumptions are wrong, they need to be told that they are wrong. Not that they are valid.

Link to when a politician or public speaker has EVER told the public they are wrong?

The COURT told them their assumptions were wrong. Obama came out and told them that despite what the court said, their assumptions were still valid.

Link to where he said this?

"And when you think about why, in the African American community at least, there’s a lot of pain around what happened here, I think it’s important to recognize that the African American community is looking at this issue through a set of experiences and a history that doesn’t go away."

He's not telling the AA community their view produced a false assumption. His telling non-AA that the AA view is valid.

I asked you for a link but you failed to provide one. In no way whatsoever does this above quote either state outright or even imply that African-American views about this case is valid.

 

[timschochet]

if racism wasn't something that black males go through every day of their lives,

It is not every black male, and perhaps not every day, but you are living in a cave if you think that it isn't still a common occurence

If you've read his posts, he's genuine though. He really doesn't believe it exists. Neither, apparently do several other posters here.

 

[Politician Spock]

I can't believe people are still pushing the racism / racial profiling issue with no evidence to support that narrative and lots of evidence contrary to it. I mean yeah I believe it because this is Tim and the FFA but still.

I'm not pushing the racism issue any longer. I am still pushing that GZ committed racial profiling, and that race is a central issue regarding this case. I continue to believe these are very reasonable assumptions, and despite your assertion I haven't seen any compelling evidence that argues against racial profiling.Even if GZ was not racial profiling, the perception that he was, especially among most African-Americans, is central to the national importance of this case, which is why no matter what it is STILL all about race. Furthermore, contrary to the arguments of several people here, that perception is based largely not on false reporting by the media nor on inflammatory statements by black leadership, but on a very real history of ibstitutionalized racism which all blacks are aware of and which, in terms of law enforcement and the judicial system continued into present day.

When people's assumptions are wrong, they need to be told that they are wrong. Not that they are valid.

Link to when a politician or public speaker has EVER told the public they are wrong?

The COURT told them their assumptions were wrong. Obama came out and told them that despite what the court said, their assumptions were still valid.

Link to where he said this?

"And when you think about why, in the African American community at least, theres a lot of pain around what happened here, I think its important to recognize that the African American community is looking at this issue through a set of experiences and a history that doesnt go away."He's not telling the AA community their view produced a false assumption. His telling non-AA that the AA view is valid.

I asked you for a link but you failed to provide one. In no way whatsoever does this above quote either state outright or even imply that African-American views about this case is valid.

Validating the AA community's thought process was the whole point if his speech.

 

[Witz]

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/15/opinion/thernstrom-trayvon-martin-obama

 

[StrikeS2k]

if racism wasn't something that black males go through every day of their lives,

It is not every black male, and perhaps not every day, but you are living in a cave if you think that it isn't still a common occurence

If you've read his posts, he's genuine though. He really doesn't believe it exists. Neither, apparently do several other posters here.

 

[Joe McGee]

I asked you for a link but you failed to provide one. In no way whatsoever does this above quote either state outright or even imply that African-American views about this case is valid.

Are valid. Are. If you're going to troll, at least use proper English when you do it.

 

[jonessed]

No. Love you RBM but you're wrong. I can't stand Sharpton but this goes way deeper than him. If the history of racism wasn't there, if racism wasn't something that black males go through every day of their lives, then all of Sharptons rants would fall on deaf ears.

Because people love to take responsibility for their own actions n this country.

In your attempt to provide a snide rebuttal of my comments, you have hit IMO on one of the main reasons why people look at this affair very differently depending on who you are.Like you, I was raised to believe that personal responsibilty is the key to success and also morally correct. As a nation we cherish individual freedom, and rightfully so. But also like you (assuming you are not black), I was never subjected to a history of prejudice. I never had to look over my shoulder in a department store, with people watching me to make sure I wasn't up to no good. I wasn't raised in a culture that faced generations of persecution and discrimination (not in this country, anyhow). Had I been, my concepts of personal responsibility would likely be very different than they are now.

Like you, I was raised to believe that personal responsibility is the key to success and also morally correct. As a nation we cherish individual freedom, and rightfully so. But also like you (assuming you are not black), I was never subjected to a history of prejudice. I never had to look over my shoulder in a department store, with people watching me to make sure I wasn't up to no good. I wasn't raised in a culture that faced generations of persecution and discrimination (not in this country, anyhow) government handouts and entitlements to such a large extent that many African American have never had to take any responsibility for their lives because Democrats will always give them free stuff and make excuses for them in an effort to buy votes. Had I been, my concepts of personal responsibility would likely be very different than they are now.Fixed. I am white and I have been followed and profiled many times in my life for being white, being young, wearing young clothes, etc. I didn't like it but I didn't freak out about it.

There's lots of people who feel the way you do. Most conservatives agree with you (which is one major difference I have with conservatives, despite agreeing with them on a variety of economic issues.)But I think you are wrong. I think you are wrong in your perception of how much African-Americans are dependent on government handouts, (as compared to whites in red states) and I think you are EXTREMELY wrong to compare any of your experiences as a white American to African-Americans. And I will continue to fight against your POV on this matter.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

Bravo Tim! Keep fighting the good fight. This case has drawn out the closet racists in droves.

 

[timschochet]

Bravo Tim! Keep fighting the good fight. This case has drawn out the closet racists in droves.

I don't think it has. I believe Mr. Two Cents is a racist. I don't think anyone else posting in here has demonstrated that. To deny racism is not the equivalence of being racist. Too often many people, especially liberals, confuse the two.

Many white conservatives are angry that racism is constantly brought up, they believe, as an excuse for bad behavior and/or lack of personal responsibility. Even where racism does exist, they resent being lectured about it because they don't regard themselves as responsible for it. And there is also the argument that cries of racism prevent real positive change within the minority communities. Finally, most of the proposed solutions to racism call for some sort of government intervention, and this idea strikes at the heart of the conservative belief in basic fairness for all.

I sympathize with these feelings though I disagree with many of the specific arguments which are a result of them. But these are all legitimate positions and not in themselves racist.

 

[drummer]

Bravo Tim! Keep fighting the good fight. This case has drawn out the closet racists in droves.

I don't think it has. I believe Mr. Two Cents is a racist. I don't think anyone else posting in here has demonstrated that.To deny racism is not the equivalence of being racist. Too often many people, especially liberals, confuse the two.

Many white conservatives are angry that racism is constantly brought up, they believe, as an excuse for bad behavior and/or lack of personal responsibility. Even where racism does exist, they resent being lectured about it because they don't regard themselves as responsible for it. And there is also the argument that cries of racism prevent real positive change within the minority communities. Finally, most of the proposed solutions to racism call for some sort of government intervention, and this idea strikes at the heart of the conservative belief in basic fairness for all.

I sympathize with these feelings though I disagree with many of the specific arguments which are a result of them. But these are all legitimate positions and not in themselves racist.

Mr Two Cents isn't real.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

Bravo Tim! Keep fighting the good fight. This case has drawn out the closet racists in droves.

I don't think it has. I believe Mr. Two Cents is a racist. I don't think anyone else posting in here has demonstrated that.To deny racism is not the equivalence of being racist. Too often many people, especially liberals, confuse the two.

Many white conservatives are angry that racism is constantly brought up, they believe, as an excuse for bad behavior and/or lack of personal responsibility. Even where racism does exist, they resent being lectured about it because they don't regard themselves as responsible for it. And there is also the argument that cries of racism prevent real positive change within the minority communities. Finally, most of the proposed solutions to racism call for some sort of government intervention, and this idea strikes at the heart of the conservative belief in basic fairness for all.

I sympathize with these feelings though I disagree with many of the specific arguments which are a result of them. But these are all legitimate positions and not in themselves racist.

Tim, I can appreciate your position as the politician here, but the root of this is purely race driven. White folks do not want to be perceived as racists at all costs. The reality is, that they were raised, and brought up in a culture of ignorance. They still, at their core, harbor racist/homophobic beliefs. Sugar coat it all that you want. It's an unfortunate reality, that many people cannot outgrow.

 

[drummer]

If people wanna be racist, let them. I'd rather a racist be out in the open. I don't pay no mind to them anyway.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

If people wanna be racist, let them. I'd rather a racist be out in the open. I don't pay no mind to them anyway.

That's fine. The reality is, that none of them have the balls to come out and say it. They are cowards.

 

[drummer]

If people wanna be racist, let them. I'd rather a racist be out in the open. I don't pay no mind to them anyway.

That's fine. The reality is, that none of them have the balls to come out and say it. They are cowards.

If there are racists - heck, let's not get that extreme - person's with prejudice here in the FFA, how could they express it without getting banned or at the least a timeout? There is no rule in life that you have to like everybody, or be tolerant of groups of people. Racism at the action level where it causes tangible harm to others is real racism. Using a slur isn't racist because it isn't an American exclusive. Slurs against an a group of people happens everywhere, even within the same race of people.

tim is far from being genuine calling out Mr. Two Cents a racist. That's a shaving cream soft target that tim aims for his own pseudo intellectual purposes to prop his self worth on a message board. MTC vs. tim is a total cripple fight. My money is on MTC because he tells tim to change the channel while fighting the other personalities in tim's head - Mexican tim, Afro tim, Canadian tim, Jamaican tim, Otis tim, Orel Hershieser tim - who want to watch Home Shopping Network because they have beaded scrunchies on sale.

 

[jon_mx]

Anyhow, this story should die down now- the protests won't continue. It will be forgotten in favor of a new drama UNLESS one of two things happen:

1. The Justice Department decides to prosecute George Zimmerman. Personally, I think the chances of this are nil. Obama couldn't say that outright, but he largely hinted it in his comments. If I am wrong about this and GZ is prosecuted by the Justice Department, that will be a political disaster of incredible proportions.

2. The guy who is about to go on trial in Florida for shooting some black kids who played loud music is claiming SYG. Nobody's buying it. But if somehow he gets off, and especially if it's a white jury, all hell is going to break loose.

So Obama telling the black community that the Justice Department is investigating he is pandering.

 

[jon_mx]

Anyhow, this story should die down now- the protests won't continue. It will be forgotten in favor of a new drama UNLESS one of two things happen:

1. The Justice Department decides to prosecute George Zimmerman. Personally, I think the chances of this are nil. Obama couldn't say that outright, but he largely hinted it in his comments. If I am wrong about this and GZ is prosecuted by the Justice Department, that will be a political disaster of incredible proportions.

2. The guy who is about to go on trial in Florida for shooting some black kids who played loud music is claiming SYG. Nobody's buying it. But if somehow he gets off, and especially if it's a white jury, all hell is going to break loose.

So Obama telling the black community that the Justice Department is investigating he is pandering.

If people wanna be racist, let them. I'd rather a racist be out in the open. I don't pay no mind to them anyway.

That's fine. The reality is, that none of them have the balls to come out and say it. They are cowards.

 

[jon_mx]

Anyhow, this story should die down now- the protests won't continue. It will be forgotten in favor of a new drama UNLESS one of two things happen:

1. The Justice Department decides to prosecute George Zimmerman. Personally, I think the chances of this are nil. Obama couldn't say that outright, but he largely hinted it in his comments. If I am wrong about this and GZ is prosecuted by the Justice Department, that will be a political disaster of incredible proportions.

2. The guy who is about to go on trial in Florida for shooting some black kids who played loud music is claiming SYG. Nobody's buying it. But if somehow he gets off, and especially if it's a white jury, all hell is going to break loose.

So Obama telling the black community that the Justice Department is investigating he is pandering.

If people wanna be racist, let them. I'd rather a racist be out in the open. I don't pay no mind to them anyway.

That's fine. The reality is, that none of them have the balls to come out and say it. They are cowards.

 

[jon_mx]

if racism wasn't something that black males go through every day of their lives,

It is not every black male, and perhaps not every day, but you are living in a cave if you think that it isn't still a common occurence

If you've read his posts, he's genuine though. He really doesn't believe it exists. Neither, apparently do several other posters here.

It is not that racism doesn't exist, it is that the perception of racism is blown extremely out of proportion. Instead of seeing the great opportunities which do exist, black youth are held back by this incredible feeling of victimhood which is out of sync with the reality of today. Until this culture of victimhood is changed, which even Obama helps promote, black youth are destined to repeat this cycle of poverty and crime.

 

[Todd Andrews]

Bigots say what?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I can't believe people are still pushing the racism / racial profiling issue with no evidence to support that narrative and lots of evidence contrary to it. I mean yeah I believe it because this is Tim and the FFA but still.

Did you hear/read Obama's speech? I thought he laid out pretty clearly how this incident and its aftermath triggered a reaction from so many.

It seems that some want to argue that because GZ is not overtly racist (and we have good reasons to think that he isn't), then that means that race isn't a part of this whole saga. I just think that's really short sighted.

I saw how he pandered to prejudice.

What specific prejudice are you referring to and in what manner did Obama pander to it?

I think its important to recognize that the African- American community is looking at this issue through a set of experiences and a history that that doesnt go away.I dont want to exaggerate this, but those sets of experiences inform how the African-American community interprets what happened one night in Florida. And its inescapable for people to bring those experiences to bear.

The African-American community is also knowledgeable that there is a history of racial disparities in the application of our criminal laws, everything from the death penalty to enforcement of our drug laws. And that ends up having an impact in terms of how people interpret the case.

Where is the prejudice here?

Seriously?

Edit: Sorry, I jumped back into the thread at the point of my last post. I see now that a bunch of people have already tried in vain to explain this to tim. It's highly unlikely that I'll succeed where so many others have failed, so I'll just let it go.

 

[Todd Andrews]

Amusing that Tim is now arguing with all of his bigoted Romney voting anti-gay pals.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Amusing that Tim is now arguing with all of his bigoted Romney voting anti-gay pals.

Oh, look, It's Troll Andrews... err... I mean Todd Andrews..

 

[jon_mx]

Please don't insult other trolls.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Please don't insult other trolls.

other than you?

 

[jon_mx]

Please don't insult other trolls.

other than you?

:whoosh:

 

[The Commish]

I based my opinion that this wasn't anything to do about race on what is publicly known about GZ's life history. Can't believe Obama's remarks yesterday, just awful. But, I do feel GZ deserved to be convicted of manslaughter, but only If TM wasn't aware that GZ was carrying a firearm. I see no way TM would have gotten into a physical altercation with GZ if he knew that he had a gun. There is a big responsibility where you are carrying a concealed weapon and you have to do everything possible to avoid using it and if GZ didn't make TM aware, then he failed his responsibility in this case. GZ wasn't being robbed, he wasn't attacked in his car. It just really bothers me now, I didn't give it much thought before, that TM wasn't aware of the firearm. I haven't read or heard any evidence that stated he was knew that GZ had a gun. If TM was aware of the gun prior to getting into the physical altercation, then this wouldn't be manslaughter, in my opinion.

That logic is flawed, did you want GZ to draw his weapon as soon as he got out of his car? Or maybe you expected him to draw as soon as TM asked him if he has a problem? Both are pretty bad suggestions. If instead you think GZ should have announced he was armed I see that hindsight advice no different than people saying GZ should have announced he was neighborhood watch, TM never gave him the opportunity before sucker punching him.

Zimmerman's statement acknowledges there were words between them before the altercation started. I don't understand this.

Are you saying you can adequately defend yourself as you reach into your pocket for your phone and then look down when you realize there is no phone in your pocket? Don't be a fool, the fact that there are words exchanged does not negate the possibility of a sucker punch.

A punch that takes your enemy by suprise, possibly knocking them out.

Comes from them being a sucker for not having their guard up. Also known as a ##### move (rhymes with ditch).

I see you have acquired the move-the-goalpostitis like some others here. There are a ton of things that could have happened and we will never know. A sucker punch is certainly possible. Just as "reaching for his phone" could have been "reaching for his gun". My comment was specifically to your assertions #1. that it was for certain a sucker punch and #2. that there was no time for Zimmerman to have acted differently than he did.

Wow you are dense. You replied to my post confused that since there were words exchanged that you implied a sucker punch was not possible.

You got a problem #####?

I'M NEIGHBORHOOD WATCH!

I HAVE A GUN!

Yeah...right.

I didn't imply anything. Your reading comprehension problems are yours not mine. You want to read into it, that's on you, but if calling me names makes you feel better have at it but it won't change the problems with your statements as outlined above.

 

[RCon]

I can't believe people are still pushing the racism / racial profiling issue with no evidence to support that narrative and lots of evidence contrary to it. I mean yeah I believe it because this is Tim and the FFA but still.

Did you hear/read Obama's speech? I thought he laid out pretty clearly how this incident and its aftermath triggered a reaction from so many.

It seems that some want to argue that because GZ is not overtly racist (and we have good reasons to think that he isn't), then that means that race isn't a part of this whole saga. I just think that's really short sighted.

I saw how he pandered to prejudice.

What specific prejudice are you referring to and in what manner did Obama pander to it?

I think its important to recognize that the African- American community is looking at this issue through a set of experiences and a history that that doesnt go away.I dont want to exaggerate this, but those sets of experiences inform how the African-American community interprets what happened one night in Florida. And its inescapable for people to bring those experiences to bear.

The African-American community is also knowledgeable that there is a history of racial disparities in the application of our criminal laws, everything from the death penalty to enforcement of our drug laws. And that ends up having an impact in terms of how people interpret the case.

Where is the prejudice here?

Seriously?

Edit: Sorry, I jumped back into the thread at the point of my last post. I see now that a bunch of people have already tried in vain to explain this to tim. It's highly unlikely that I'll succeed where so many others have failed, so I'll just let it go.

I'd suggest that Bush's speechwriter Gerson used the most appropriate phrase for this speech and others like it, "the soft prejudice of low expectations".

 

[The Commish]

I can't believe people are still pushing the racism / racial profiling issue with no evidence to support that narrative and lots of evidence contrary to it. I mean yeah I believe it because this is Tim and the FFA but still.

The answer is in between IMO the two extremes of jon and tim. It's naive to think that his race wasn't part of the profile. It's clear it wasn't the initiating factor, but I believe it helped it was part of the "they" Zimmerman made reference to. Is that racial profiling in it's strictest sense? No. With that said, what evidence do you think we have? That Zimmerman dated a black girl? That he did work with minority charities? I'm certainly not poo pooing efforts like that, but I really don't see it as definitive evidence one way or the other as to what he was thinking that night. It's quite possible the recent events in his neighborhood had him thinking very differently in that moment, but that's anyone's guess. The last thing we are left with is the jury, but forgive me if I put little credence into what an all white jury believes with regards to racism.

Again, I don't think it was the driving factor in his decisions, but I think it was an element.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Bravo Tim! Keep fighting the good fight. This case has drawn out the closet racists in droves.

I don't think it has. I believe Mr. Two Cents is a racist. I don't think anyone else posting in here has demonstrated that.To deny racism is not the equivalence of being racist. Too often many people, especially liberals, confuse the two.

Many white conservatives are angry that racism is constantly brought up, they believe, as an excuse for bad behavior and/or lack of personal responsibility. Even where racism does exist, they resent being lectured about it because they don't regard themselves as responsible for it. And there is also the argument that cries of racism prevent real positive change within the minority communities. Finally, most of the proposed solutions to racism call for some sort of government intervention, and this idea strikes at the heart of the conservative belief in basic fairness for all.

I sympathize with these feelings though I disagree with many of the specific arguments which are a result of them. But these are all legitimate positions and not in themselves racist.

After like 2000 posts in here you finally bring up a valid point.

Even in situations where racism may have occurred(which I dont believe happened in the GZ/TM case) people dont really want to hear about it because it is frequently brought up after something awful has been done. It is kind of like when an employee screws up and they want to bring up some other thing that they say is unsafe or a bad process or whatever. Their points may be valid, but the timing is awful and should take a backseat to many other discussions.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

After like 2000 posts in here you finally bring up a valid point.

Not sure if this was meant as a joke or not, but the guy actually has 1928 posts in this thread so far. That's amazing.

 

[jon_mx]

I can't believe people are still pushing the racism / racial profiling issue with no evidence to support that narrative and lots of evidence contrary to it. I mean yeah I believe it because this is Tim and the FFA but still.

The answer is in between IMO the two extremes of jon and tim. It's naive to think that his race wasn't part of the profile. It's clear it wasn't the initiating factor, but I believe it helped it was part of the "they" Zimmerman made reference to. Is that racial profiling in it's strictest sense? No. With that said, what evidence do you think we have? That Zimmerman dated a black girl? That he did work with minority charities? I'm certainly not poo pooing efforts like that, but I really don't see it as definitive evidence one way or the other as to what he was thinking that night. It's quite possible the recent events in his neighborhood had him thinking very differently in that moment, but that's anyone's guess. The last thing we are left with is the jury, but forgive me if I put little credence into what an all white jury believes with regards to racism.

Again, I don't think it was the driving factor in his decisions, but I think it was an element.

I am not sure what you mean by racial profiling.

Racial profiling is the use of an individual’s race or ethnicity by law enforcement personnel as a key factor in deciding whether to engage in enforcement (e.g. make a traffic stop or arrest).

Zimmerman intial call was not racial profiling since he had no idea what race Martin was until later. If you assume Zimmerman went looking for Martin and the fact he was black was a key factor, maybe that could be construed as racial profiling. But one we do not know for sure Zimmerman even went looking for Martin or looking for an address. And two, even if he did go looking for Martin, there is no evidence to suggest race was a key factor. I don't think by just assuming it might have been some small element to possibly impacting Zimmerman's action that it rises up to the level of racial profiling. At some point you have to put some meat to these words or they are rather meaningless.

 

[Runningman]

Bigots say what?

Morons say bigots say what?

 

[Bonzai]

I can't believe people are still pushing the racism / racial profiling issue with no evidence to support that narrative and lots of evidence contrary to it. I mean yeah I believe it because this is Tim and the FFA but still.

Did you hear/read Obama's speech? I thought he laid out pretty clearly how this incident and its aftermath triggered a reaction from so many.

It seems that some want to argue that because GZ is not overtly racist (and we have good reasons to think that he isn't), then that means that race isn't a part of this whole saga. I just think that's really short sighted.

I saw how he pandered to prejudice.

What specific prejudice are you referring to and in what manner did Obama pander to it?

I think its important to recognize that the African- American community is looking at this issue through a set of experiences and a history that that doesnt go away.I dont want to exaggerate this, but those sets of experiences inform how the African-American community interprets what happened one night in Florida. And its inescapable for people to bring those experiences to bear.

The African-American community is also knowledgeable that there is a history of racial disparities in the application of our criminal laws, everything from the death penalty to enforcement of our drug laws. And that ends up having an impact in terms of how people interpret the case.

Where is the prejudice here?

Seriously?

Edit: Sorry, I jumped back into the thread at the point of my last post. I see now that a bunch of people have already tried in vain to explain this to tim. It's highly unlikely that I'll succeed where so many others have failed, so I'll just let it go.

Could you explain it to me then?

I suppose that you could call it prejudice in a strict sense of the term, but "prejudice" typically involves some negative intent. I don't see a good reason to use a pejorative for something that applies to everyone. It loses it's meaning. Everyone appraises events based on their own experiences and cultural history. We're all prejudice in that sense. The best that we can do is try to get a handle on our how our experiences, culture, and upbringing shape our understanding of the world. And, if we're not ###### people, try to understand other folks through their experiences and their point of view. I think that is exactly what O was doing in his speech. Trying to highlight how the AA community's reaction to the issue was reasonable when considering their historical context and personal experiences. None of us know what happened that night. We're all bringing our own baggage to the table in trying to make sense of it.

 

[Leonidas]

This case, this trial, this incident...not racial.

Just...not.

Unless Martin was racist and profiled Zimmerman prior to attacking him, that is.

Stop eating everything the media feeds you hook line and sinker

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I can't believe people are still pushing the racism / racial profiling issue with no evidence to support that narrative and lots of evidence contrary to it. I mean yeah I believe it because this is Tim and the FFA but still.

Did you hear/read Obama's speech? I thought he laid out pretty clearly how this incident and its aftermath triggered a reaction from so many.

It seems that some want to argue that because GZ is not overtly racist (and we have good reasons to think that he isn't), then that means that race isn't a part of this whole saga. I just think that's really short sighted.

I saw how he pandered to prejudice.

What specific prejudice are you referring to and in what manner did Obama pander to it?

I think its important to recognize that the African- American community is looking at this issue through a set of experiences and a history that that doesnt go away.I dont want to exaggerate this, but those sets of experiences inform how the African-American community interprets what happened one night in Florida. And its inescapable for people to bring those experiences to bear.

The African-American community is also knowledgeable that there is a history of racial disparities in the application of our criminal laws, everything from the death penalty to enforcement of our drug laws. And that ends up having an impact in terms of how people interpret the case.

Where is the prejudice here?

Seriously?

Edit: Sorry, I jumped back into the thread at the point of my last post. I see now that a bunch of people have already tried in vain to explain this to tim. It's highly unlikely that I'll succeed where so many others have failed, so I'll just let it go.

Could you explain it to me then?

I suppose that you could call it prejudice in a strict sense of the term, but "prejudice" typically involves some negative intent. I don't see a good reason to use a pejorative for something that applies to everyone. It loses it's meaning. Everyone appraises events based on their own experiences and cultural history. We're all prejudice in that sense. The best that we can do is try to get a handle on our how our experiences, culture, and upbringing shape our understanding of the world. And, if we're not ###### people, try to understand other folks through their experiences and their point of view. I think that is exactly what O was doing in his speech. Trying to highlight how the AA community's reaction to the issue was reasonable when considering their historical context and personal experiences. None of us know what happened that night. We're all bringing our own baggage to the table in trying to make sense of it.

This is basically right. When somebody brings a particular set of experiences to the table and interprets this particular case in a way that shoe-horns it into their own preconceived narrative, that's prejudice by definition.

In other words, all the stuff that tim quoted about how African Americans have this particular history and so that colors how they view stuff like this is best interpreted as a statement that those folks are prejudiced in this case and not looking at it objectively.

 

[Christo]

I can't believe people are still pushing the racism / racial profiling issue with no evidence to support that narrative and lots of evidence contrary to it. I mean yeah I believe it because this is Tim and the FFA but still.

I'm not pushing the racism issue any longer. I am still pushing that GZ committed racial profiling, and that race is a central issue regarding this case. I continue to believe these are very reasonable assumptions, and despite your assertion I haven't seen any compelling evidence that argues against racial profiling.Even if GZ was not racial profiling, the perception that he was, especially among most African-Americans, is central to the national importance of this case, which is why no matter what it is STILL all about race. Furthermore, contrary to the arguments of several people here, that perception is based largely not on false reporting by the media nor on inflammatory statements by black leadership, but on a very real history of ibstitutionalized racism which all blacks are aware of and which, in terms of law enforcement and the judicial system continued into present day.

When people's assumptions are wrong, they need to be told that they are wrong. Not that they are valid.

Link to when a politician or public speaker has EVER told the public they are wrong?

The COURT told them their assumptions were wrong. Obama came out and told them that despite what the court said, their assumptions were still valid.

Link to where he said this?

"And when you think about why, in the African American community at least, there’s a lot of pain around what happened here, I think it’s important to recognize that the African American community is looking at this issue through a set of experiences and a history that doesn’t go away."

He's not telling the AA community their view produced a false assumption. His telling non-AA that the AA view is valid.

I asked you for a link but you failed to provide one. In no way whatsoever does this above quote either state outright or even imply that African-American views about this case is valid.

"it's important to recognize" "a history that doesn't go away"

 

[eurotrashman]

if racism wasn't something that black males go through every day of their lives,

It is not every black male, and perhaps not every day, but you are living in a cave if you think that it isn't still a common occurence

If you've read his posts, he's genuine though. He really doesn't believe it exists. Neither, apparently do several other posters here.

It is not that racism doesn't exist, it is that the perception of racism is blown extremely out of proportion. Instead of seeing the great opportunities which do exist, black youth are held back by this incredible feeling of victimhood which is out of sync with the reality of today. Until this culture of victimhood is changed, which even Obama helps promote, black youth are destined to repeat this cycle of poverty and crime.

It's really amazing how in touch you are with black america.

 

[The Commish]

I can't believe people are still pushing the racism / racial profiling issue with no evidence to support that narrative and lots of evidence contrary to it. I mean yeah I believe it because this is Tim and the FFA but still.

The answer is in between IMO the two extremes of jon and tim. It's naive to think that his race wasn't part of the profile. It's clear it wasn't the initiating factor, but I believe it helped it was part of the "they" Zimmerman made reference to. Is that racial profiling in it's strictest sense? No. With that said, what evidence do you think we have? That Zimmerman dated a black girl? That he did work with minority charities? I'm certainly not poo pooing efforts like that, but I really don't see it as definitive evidence one way or the other as to what he was thinking that night. It's quite possible the recent events in his neighborhood had him thinking very differently in that moment, but that's anyone's guess. The last thing we are left with is the jury, but forgive me if I put little credence into what an all white jury believes with regards to racism.

Again, I don't think it was the driving factor in his decisions, but I think it was an element.

I am not sure what you mean by racial profiling.

Racial profiling is the use of an individual’s race or ethnicity by law enforcement personnel as a key factor in deciding whether to engage in enforcement (e.g. make a traffic stop or arrest).

Zimmerman intial call was not racial profiling since he had no idea what race Martin was until later. If you assume Zimmerman went looking for Martin and the fact he was black was a key factor, maybe that could be construed as racial profiling. But one we do not know for sure Zimmerman even went looking for Martin or looking for an address. And two, even if he did go looking for Martin, there is no evidence to suggest race was a key factor. I don't think by just assuming it might have been some small element to possibly impacting Zimmerman's action that it rises up to the level of racial profiling. At some point you have to put some meat to these words or they are rather meaningless.

I am now 100% confident you are taking the Jo Jo approach with my posts and not even reading them....well done.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

I've heard white people say,many times in fact, that theirs Black people ...and then theirs N#ggers....its like saying theirs white people then theirs white trash...either way its profiling a race

 

[Christo]

I've heard white people say,many times in fact, that theirs Black people ...and then theirs N#ggers....its like saying theirs white people then theirs white trash...either way its profiling a race

First, it's "there's white people then there's white trash." And second, it's true.