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Those are good points, although statistics are pretty tough to use to rank inside tackles. The three things I'd point out:1) Jenkins' job isn't to rush the passer, it's to eat up blockers. The Jets rank 3rd in sacks after ranking 25th in sacks a year ago.2) I wouldn't judge an interior lineman by scoring defense or even total defense; I'd look at yards per carry allowed. The Jets rank 3rd in YPC allowed, behind Pittsburgh and Minnesota (Kevin and Pat Williams); the other teams in the top 5 are Baltimore (Haloti Ngata) and Chicago (Tommie Harris). And the Jets ranked 22nd in YPC allowed in '07.3) Jenkins plays a slightly tougher position; being a nose is a more difficult job than when you've got another big body right next to you.Obviously it's close, and I don't think Jenkins should be MVP of the NFL. I'm just pointing out that it's ridiculous to say that Haynesworth should be MVP, when it's not clear that he's even the best interior defensive lineman in his conference.
Then why are you comparing them at all - after all they have different job discriptionsHow do you determine that they are close, then?
check those stats and get back to us, OK?
Ridiculous? Geesh. Let us know what you think on Monday.To give Jenkins credit for the Jets poor D in 2007 and not give Haynesworth credit for the Titans excellent D in 2007 when he was healthy isn't fair. Seems to me you should either bring up 2007 for both or not at all. If Jenkins were the only new Jets player or there wasn't any youngsters playing better, then maybe he'd get all the credit for improvement but Revis is sharp, Pace is there, how many LBs did they replace? 2? Jenkins sure is stealing alot of credit from other Jets playing well in your scenario.Haynesworth has been double and triple teamed on 95% of plays this season. Despite that, he has 54 tackles, 6 for a loss, 15 QB pressures, and 7 sacks. Intimidation? 4 QBs have been hurt from sacks by him this year.Excusing Jenkins lack of pass rush or to call his job harder isn't realistic. Are 4 OL blocking him? Is he overcoming a triple team and getting a sack like Haynesworth?Chase you have to see Albert more man. He's incredible. Last year, he ran across the field and caught Reggie Wayne from behind. What DT is that fast? It's just a tackle in the stat column, but if you watch him often enough you notice little things like that that are just jaw dropping.Titans played a prevent D for 2 games this year NOT blitzing at all. Fisher's call. It seemed odd but worked well. Their stats suffer from those 2 games as, IMO, a Defender has to be allowed to pin his ears back; however they won both so Fisher made a smart call on that.Titans run D is better than the Jets run D. The Titans will run for more yards than the Jets. If anyone wants to make a silly bet on the board, let me know.
Why isnt it ridiculous to say Warner should be MVP, when it's not clear that he's even the best QB in his conference? We seem to have no problem debating the merits of relatively close QBs for the MVP award, but generally if any other position has players at similar levels of greatness in a year it invalidates their campaigns. Yes, QBs are normally very valuable, but that doesnt automatically mean they should be odds on favorites for MVP year in and year out.
He's the best player on a defense that is allowing a league least 13.1 pints per game (the Jets are 16th at 22.1) is in the to 10 against the rush and the pass...and his team happens to be undefeated as well.
But he's just one player on a defense that is terrific. He's got an offense and a special teams, too. Surely no one would judge a defensive tackle by his team's record.And while his team is allowing fewer PPG than the Jets, his team's offense is also giving up a lot fewer INTs for touchdowns, too. PPGA is misleading in this case, no? I would think quality of a DT would best be judged by YPC allowed rather than team record or even points per game allowed. Does Haynesworth really deserve credit if the Titans have a 20 play drive whereas the Jets might have lots of five play drives? Totally different offenses.
Haynesworth has started at least 10 games each of the last five years.
Not that I really care but it seems like no matter what anyone says you like Jenkins (nothing wrong with that by the way)You asked the question and I think you have gotten some pretty good answers, you just don’t like them
Bri, I think you're right, and I said that I think that both are great, but Hayes gets the nod based on stats. But a couple things to consider here with the above selection. One, Jenkins gets double basically every play, since he is in the 3-4 it's his job. Without another D tackle next to him, his job is to get two blockers and still make plays. Jenkins job is not to get a pass rush but rather provide pressure up the middle in the 3-4, as you have other, more agile players get the sacks. Both great tackles, I just don't think either is deserving of the award this year, but both deserve Pro-Bowl and All-Pro.
There's the rub. Why not? A good DT (NT) can literally make a defense. Just look at any good defenses in the past. The sucess of the Ravens D for the last decade has revolved around their NT. Sapp was critical to Tampa's success. If you have at DT playing at a very high level, in particular Haynesworth, you have a dangerous force that a) makes everyone else on his defense better and b) everyone on the other team has to plan around. Why isn't that MVP worthy? To have that singular effect is pretty impressive. Very few offensive players make players around them better. A RB needs other players to succeed. Not so with a defensive lineman. If I'm looking to create a championship team, taking a guy like Haynesworth over Portis is a pretty reasonable position to take.If Jenkins continues his strong play and Jets go on a run, Jenkins should be among the top contenders for MVP.
As great as a DT can be, he's never going to be the equivalent of a great QB. I think it really is that simple. It's also noncontroversial to state that the ceiling for a DT is a bit lower than that of a great corner or edge rusher.
Sacks, FF, QB injuries, tackles for loss, he is a game changer at DT-a playmaker at a position that more often than not is just about being a human wall. Jenkins is that wall. Is he a very good wall? Sure but in a close game, Jenkins isn't making any big play to "change the tide" of the game. In 07, when Haynesworth was out their D wasn't very good at all. They have a slew of new and improved(that seems new) talent on the DL now. I don't think it would be a huge dropoff again but, I didn't last year either. All I've got to go on is when he was out, wow what a difference.Your boy Joe Klecko-an incredible tactician of a DT- never was the playmaker Haynesworth is. He got sacks at the nose. Is Jenkins better than Klecko? Haynesworth is regularly compared to Warren Sapp. For now, last 2 years, that's a fair comparison IMO. Haynesworth has to put more time in at an elite level but, I do think it's a good comparison with a sure-bet HOFer.Chase Stuart said:
Interesting stats. When healthy, I think the Titans have the best(due to depth) DL and OL in the NFL. Otherwise I'd probably go with Minny. Titans can go 7-8 deep on the DL and they're all solid players. Depending on how many are active, throwing everything else out the window, it's just too tough for opposing OLs to stay fresh against the rotation. Titans have had injuries to both starting DEs this year. If Vandenbosch is healthy, that End stat is quickly fixed.
(I don't but) If we were to excuse his lack of sacks and roll with pressure as you said, his QB pressure stats are quite unimpressive. The guy is a useful human wall. The Jets can gameplan with confidence that people won't move that wall. I understand it's usefulness but, the guy is just not a star while Haynesworth is.I don't think Jenkins is All-Pro as clearly I'd pick a playmaker DT over him to go next to Haynesworth. There's some in Pitt, Minny, GB, and depending where Tuck is on the voting....I prefer others.People are starting to pay attention to the Titans. It's fascinating to see them go from "oh that team" to one that interests many. It doesn't mean though, that these people have watched them play alot. Fisher is marvelous at creating matchup problems. It's like an art with coaches and he is the best artist right now. Like I mentioned earlier, (which BTW is from Titans site and NFL) 95% of plays this year Haynesworth was either double or triple teamed and he still has those stats. That's something to chew on right there. Anyhow, back to Fish. He knows the opposing OL is doing that. He lost both DEs and DT Tony Brown. "All he had" was Haynesworth for a brief spell. His plan? Bounce Haynesworth around so the triple team follows him and it confuses the OL blocking scheme. He even had Haynesworth lined up as a DE and drop back to cover the TE. The OL were pretty useless on that play wonderring who to block now that he dropped back. Some DB went right past them to the QB. If you watch them enough you notice teams doing things differently just for Haynesworth. Haynesworth is starting to have that type of an impact and Fisher is trying very creatively to adjust. It's pretty fascinating really. Anyhow back to the new Titans interest. I love it. They're a super coached team and that needs attention especially since so many NFL players are missing tackles and acting out which Fisher doesn't allow. But Haynesworth....people need to see his athleticism. Maybe he'll run down Leon Washington or Cotchery from behind this week, maybe he'll hurdle some lineman and make a play. Maybe you'll realize he dived and just missed getting a sack on Favre. At that point he didn't stop, but then got up and almost ran down a play. I can pretty much guarantee at least one "oh my" play where if you're looking for it you'll see some amazing athleticism. Keep in mind RB speed or WR speed when you see him get someone from behind.MCguidance said:
Sorry man, but this is completely wrong. I'll take a great DT over any other position any day. The majority of the top defenses in the league have good to great DTs, while if you look at the bottom 10, none have good-great DTs. The same can't be said for corners and one of the best DEs in the league plays for the 3rd worst D. QB might be more valuable on the whole, but Haynesworth and Jenkins are, at least arguably, more valuable than any QB this year. Warner? Brees? Both great years, but what makes them more valuable, aside from your "simple" statement?
Contrary to your rhetoric, Haynesworth is undoubtedly the best defensive tackle in the league. The only reason he is considered an MVP candidate (rare for a DT) is that he is on an undefeated team and other than a rookie (Chris Johnson) there is nobody on his teams offense that is having a superior year.On the other hand, Jenkins (although playing well) has to compete with Favre, Cotchery and Jones for accolades.
What happens to the Cardinals or Saints if Brees or Warner goes down? It is much more difficult to gameplan around losing your starting QB as opposed to losing your starting DT. The Titans would still be a strong defense without Haynesworth, the Saints and Cardinals would be significantly worse without their starting QBs.
Why aren't DTs paid as well as other positions then? Shouldn't the top DT make more than just about anyone else?
Id rather start up front on the OL than DT if I was going to start with a stud anyway.Cleveland is not all that good...with Shaun Rodgers in the middle...neither was Detroit while he was there. And he is a pretty darn good DT too.
Possibly, although the Patriots lost the best QB in the league and still have a winning record. Your statement "It is much more difficult to gameplan around losing your starting QB as opposed to losing your starting DT. " is too general. The Titans are a much better team after losing their starting QB, the Packers didn't miss a beat going from a HOF QB to a first year starter, the Steelers still played well with a journeyman QB in place of Ben.
He is the best defensive tackle on a winning team this year. Shaun Rogers has been dominant and if the Browns were better, he would be the clear winner in this debate.
injuries-lost pro bowl caliber DE(Bosch) for a fairly good amount of time. He'd either get scratched during warmups or play just one series, so I'm not certain of the amount as I'd be if he were listed as out but it's several games. "The Freak" missed a little time. Tony Brown I think missed just one game, played thru the injury rest of the time. With their depth though, I think injuries is just a small part. Whatever the difference is between "good" DE and "pro bowl" DE. The biggest thing to me was against the Colts and Packers where Fisher did not let them blitz. It was just a normal D but watching, it felt like a prevent D. Earlier in the year, they did this against the Texans and Slaton ran for 106 yards or so in the first half. In the 2nd, Fisher scrapped it and let them blitz and (how I'd describe) let them play D how teams should play D-with no restrictions. The 2nd half that week was one of the most dominating performances by a Defense in a half this season. Sacks, forced fumbles, INTs, precious few yards....it was a night and day difference between first and second half. When the Colts game came, I thought there was no way Fisher did that stuff again. I mean after the Texans game why would he have confidence in it? Well Fisher did and it worked perfectly. The Titans D was bent but it didn't break. Same with the Packers game. That Packer offense put up some excellent yardage numbers but not enough points, points-wise(the ultimate stat in any game) the Pack failed to generate enough. This D can really attack and get at the QB. They openned with 7 sacks against Jax, for example. I think telling them to not blitz and solely read and react takes some spark away from them. If you look at the other games and compare them to those, there is a real significant difference in stats-you could probably find some where they allowed 100 yards less in other games-very big difference. The Titans didn't sack Manning in 06 and one game in 07. I don't recall W-L record but, that aside, the games were super close and Fisher figured out that that was how to play Manning. Suddenly the Titans were close with one of the best teams in the NFL every game they played. I believe that's where this change in D philosophy started. I don't like it. I prefer to have them pin their ears backs and go after the QB. I do, however, completely understand that it works well the weeks he employs it. My guess is it's-will rushing the QBs throws create turnovers? Do they have the highly talented athletes at WR to make the Titans pay for blitzing?Rodgers uses his legs well and Peyton doesn't get shaken much anymore. Both teams have awesome WR corps.This week I don't think they do it against the Jets. They could but I think Favre's excitability, they roll the dice. As you know Favre could throw some poor pass or he could just destroy a team if they go after him. One fo the best attributes Favre has is his ability to overcome mistakes. I think you'll see the Titans go after Favre and if they get INTs or Fumbles, then they go to this almost prevent D. If Fisher does go to this laid back style D, you can almost turn off the TV and come back in the 4th to see it nearly tied.Well, I hope that makes some sense. Picture BP telling Taylor not to blitz or Buddy telling his 4-6 D they're gonna play prevent for a whole game. It's worked, genius call by Fisher, but I think it takes the spark away at times.
I love Tuck and Kiwi, mentioned a few DLs in another post as well. Due to depth was my point here. Just starters I'd have to think on it.
lol no, moved from VT to OK a week ago. The move and the kids not being familiar in the new home....it's been a couple weeks since I got more than 3-4 hours sleep a night. Just super overtired.
Haynesworth has 7 sacks, that says Shaun leads interior DL with 4.5Something "off" there
That would be James Harrison
