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Future Of The Forum - And Big Thought On The Specific Problem (1 Viewer)

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AAABatteries said:
While I think your assertion is correct, you can’t call it a fact without proving it.  
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This is the argument that anti-evolution people make. 

But have it your way- I don’t want to get into semantics. Let’s call it an assertion then. Or my firm opinion. 

 
timschochet said:
This is the argument that anti-evolution people make. 

But have it your way- I don’t want to get into semantics. Let’s call it an assertion then. Or my firm opinion. 
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That’s better - and I agree with your assertion.  

Not that it matters but the difference here, IMO, is someone could prove your assertion with all relevant data.  Excluding possible hidden/deleted posts.

 
timschochet said:
They don’t necessarily share the same opinion, at least not expressly so, but they tend to stick up for those who support Trump, here and elsewhere. 
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How is that a problem? As a person that advocates immigration and civil rights, you probably don't share the same opinion as them, but you stick up for them. 

Unless they are doing something that defies board rules, why do those posters bother you? It's as though you want them silenced in order to make your opinion louder. 

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
Courtjester said:
Okay, I don't post in this forum often because it isn't worth it. Joe's assertion this place is an 85/15 split of anti-Trump vs pro-Trump is waaayyy off. This place is 95/5 and I am being generous with that conclusion.
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It’s about 87-13. Here’s some data.
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I'll add there's a poll that shows 2/3s of responders have voted for a Republican president.

It's also a self-fulfilling prophecy. Gosh everyone is anti-Trump say Trump supporters who just won't post here.

IMO there are people who support Trump because they believe he's good for the economy (or Dems are bad for the economy), so that's good for them, their goals, their families. Which is right, and it's legitimately good. But they don't want to defend [waving arms] all the Bad Things he does and says. So they want to say 'yes I support Trump' but when it comes to discussing x, y, z event or action or statement, no, that's really not something they are willing to do or really even can do. And the fact that so many of these folks are conservative makes it all the harder. And what happens is Trump critics will say 'Trump is bad' so 'you're bad because you make it possible' and then it's personal and it becomes impossible. However regardless there are people who hold common values on both sides of the argument and the goal should be to focus on those common values and I do think from posting here that there are common values for the vast, vast majority of people here, Trump and anti-Trump. However it’s certain we cannot share or discuss these values if we don’t talk.

 
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KCitons said:
How is that a problem? As a person that advocates immigration and civil rights, you probably don't share the same opinion as them, but you stick up for them. 

Unless they are doing something that defies board rules, why do those posters bother you? It's as though you want them silenced in order to make your opinion louder. 
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Unless I missed something, Tim didn’t say that was a problem.  You are making some big assumptions - again, maybe I missed a post.

 
KCitons said:
How is that a problem? As a person that advocates immigration and civil rights, you probably don't share the same opinion as them, but you stick up for them. 

Unless they are doing something that defies board rules, why do those posters bother you? It's as though you want them silenced in order to make your opinion louder. 
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I don’t think it’s a problem at all. They don’t bother me in the slightest. I’m very happy they’re around. 

Court Jester challenged me to name 10 Trump supporters, and in his own list mentioned tonydead, which I didn’t think was an accurate labeling- so when I responded to him I made that distinction, that’s all. 

 
AAABatteries said:
Unless I missed something, Tim didn’t say that was a problem.  You are making some big assumptions - again, maybe I missed a post.
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timschochet said:
I don’t think it’s a problem at all. They don’t bother me in the slightest. I’m very happy they’re around. 

Court Jester challenged me to name 10 Trump supporters, and in his own list mentioned tonydead, which I didn’t think was an accurate labeling- so when I responded to him I made that distinction, that’s all. 
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I apologize, I misunderstood CJ approach. 

 
Courtjester said:
I stand by my hypothesis that the minute Trump is voted out, this forum is going to be a ghost town anyway. 
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And this is possibly true. But it also speaks for itself that this is 100% a Trump problem, it wasn't necessary before 2016 and it won't be necessary hopefully after he's gone.

 
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Joes plea is admirable but as long as Trump is the pres, hateful speech will continue in this country from the media to this board.    Changing the behavior of people is quite difficult and I expect little to change.  Banning posters is the only way to try to clean it up and even that will probably not work.  It will just drag out the inevitable.   I say nuke it.   It's the only way to be sure.  

 
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Grievance fest never met a grievance fest it didn't like, I guess. The aggrieved Trump supporter is met with grievances from the other side, and a grievance festival is formed, quorum called, and sides taken.

I think we should let Joe's sentiment stand sort of singular and keep the debate about the viability of the PSF to the PSF Moderation Thread. Just a humble suggestion. 

 
DocHolliday said:
Joes plea is admirable but as long as Trump is the pres, hateful speech will continue in this country from the media to this board.    Changing the behavior of people is quite difficult and I expect little to change.  Banning posters is the only way to try to clean it up and even that will probably not work.  It will just drag out the inevitable.   I say nuke it.   It's the only way to be sure.  
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No offense GB but it has been working - you should post in here more.

 
Courtjester said:
Okay, I don't post in this forum often because it isn't worth it. Joe's assertion this place is an 85/15 split of anti-Trump vs pro-Trump is waaayyy off. This place is 95/5 and I am being generous with that conclusion. Right now there are less than 6-8 Trump supporters on this site out of over 50,000 members. Do some of them come in and troll? Yep, they do, but some of them try and make actual points--which is then interpreted as trolling. If someone says they don't think Trump is doing a bad job--that isn't trolling, that is their opinion. which is then met with three pages of piling on and insults. 

As someone who has been here since Cheatsheet days and a constant paid subscriber, I applaud Joe for what him and MT are attempting, but IMO it won't work. Think about it--just put 6 people on  ignore and every thread would just go forward smoothly because there simply wouldn't be any dissenting thoughts for pages and pages-it would just be 15 pages of people agreeing Trump sucks. However, people just can't help themselves--the minute a different thought is introduced.,they have to pile on and insult someone and away we go. 

I stand by my hypothesis that the minute Trump is voted out, this forum is going to be a ghost town anyway. 
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There might be that many forum members but realize the PSF is dominated by the same 25 people maybe less. Some threads the same 3-4. I found this place years ago for FF and subscribe for the Draft Dominator. I realized when I stumbled in the PSF it was a different animal than the SP and FFA. And for the most part I am pretty much side with the mob but when I didn`t it got ugly fast.

 
GoBirds said:
The bolded is continually used as a cop out to support poor behavior in here and it’s an excuse that could be said during any presidency. Just be better and there won’t be a need for this excuse which doesn’t hold water. 
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Not supporting poor behavior in the least. Please stop projecting onto my words things you want them to mean. 

When i write things like that it's because i believe it. I've only observed politics in this country for 25ish years and while a lot of the politics are similar the moral divide is clearly different and gotten significant worse from my perspective.  I don't seem to be alone in this as we haves a mandate to be better with each other which has never been necessary in the past. If what you  are saying were true id think this mandate would have shown up long ago. 

 
Juxtatarot said:
My belief is some posters get a kick out of inflaming liberals even if it might frustrate them at times too.  But mostly they are having fun.  However, if this back-and-forth ends up resulting in the Joe shutting things down, they will see that as a "win" for their political side and the schadenfreude will be strong.  

(This is no way excuses the behavior of some  liberal posters who can be snarky and condescending among other faults.)
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You're hitting on my biggest concern with this forum but not in the way you're alluding to. You talk of "some posters getting a kick out of inflaming liberals". Why state it this way as if their aren't posters who get a kick out of inflaming conservatives? The impression I get reading this forum is that the preponderance of liberals here leads to some of them looking at the other side as though their a different species or something. There are bad apples among each and every group of people assembled. I wouldn't place blind trust in the good intentions of any person no matter who they are or what they represent.

My personal experience posting here goes like this...

Despite having never once championed Trump, proclaiming that I have not nor will ever vote for him, having in the past sung the praises of Bernie Sanders, Amy Klobuchar, and declaring that I'd be excited to vote for Pete Buttigieg, I can be assured that if I make a comment in criticism of a Democrat, one of either @timschochet or @sho nuff if not both, among others, will come running in to criticize me and paint me as a Trump supporter. I have criticized Trump many times. I have criticized Republicans many times. I've openly expressed my disdain for both parties. Yet you know who has never attacked me after any of my criticisms of Republicans here? Answer: Any of the Conservatives here. Not once.

 
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Mr Anonymous said:
You're hitting on my biggest concern with this forum but not in the way you're alluding to. You talk of "some posters getting a kick out of inflaming liberals". Why state it this way as if their aren't posters who get a kick out of inflaming conservatives? The impression I get reading this forum is that the preponderance of liberals here leads to some of them looking at the other side as though their a different species or something. There are bad apples among each and every group of people assembled. I wouldn't place blind trust in the good intentions of any person no matter who they are or what they represent.

My personal experience posting here goes like this...

Despite having never once championed Trump, proclaiming that I have not nor will ever vote for him, having in the past sung the praises of Bernie Sanders, Amy Klobuchar, and declaring that I'd be excited to vote for Pete Buttigieg, I can be assured that if I make a comment in criticism of a Democrat, one of either @timschochet or @sho nuff if not both among others, will come running in to criticize me and paint me as a Trump supporter. I have criticized Trump many times. I have criticized Republicans many times. I've openly expressed my disdain for both parties. Yet you know who has never attacked me after any of my criticisms of Republicans here? Answer: Any of the Conservatives here.
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I dont recall criticizing you but your posts...also don’t recall labeling you anything.

 
Mr Anonymous said:
I can be assured that if I make a comment in criticism of a Democrat,  @timschochet will come running in to paint me as a Trump supporter. 
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Since you make this accusation of me personally, (among others) and since I can’t recall ever doing this with you or anyone else, I don’t think it’s unfair of me to ask you to back up your words. 

 
The Commish said:
Not supporting poor behavior in the least. Please stop projecting onto my words things you want them to mean. 

When i write things like that it's because i believe it. I've only observed politics in this country for 25ish years and while a lot of the politics are similar the moral divide is clearly different and gotten significant worse from my perspective.  I don't seem to be alone in this as we haves a mandate to be better with each other which has never been necessary in the past. If what you  are saying were true id think this mandate would have shown up long ago. 
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True, there are a handful of others in here that claim the same but we are all adults so let’s act like it and this should work out. It’s not a valid excuse just because it’s a common talking point in here. Thanks. 

 
Summer Wheat said:
There might be that many forum members but realize the PSF is dominated by the same 25 people maybe less. Some threads the same 3-4. I found this place years ago for FF and subscribe for the Draft Dominator. I realized when I stumbled in the PSF it was a different animal than the SP and FFA. And for the most part I am pretty much side with the mob but when I didn`t it got ugly fast.
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You should have been around when it was the people "for" going into Iraq and the few who were "against".  Or when people thought Obama should be held accountable for knowingly allowing drone strikes on US citizens....you want to talk about being on an island?

 
Mr Anonymous said:
I've openly expressed my disdain for both parties. Yet you know who has never attacked me after any of my criticisms of Republicans here? Answer: Any of the Conservatives here. Not once.
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It struck me the importance to add one thing to this last portion of my comments above. If the demographic were reversed, and the preponderance of posters here were Republican-voting conservatives, I have zero doubt that my posts criticizing Trump and other Republicans would be the ones getting misconstrued and attacked. In such a place, my criticisms of Democrats would go by unchallenged. That is to say there is no moral superiority for either side. It simply stems from the pack mentality and strength in numbers.  People are gonna people. I'll forever be amazed when I see someone suggest otherwise. Heck in another topic here I just read someone say it was debatable if liberals partook in the same trash behavior as conservatives. Really? Really??? Again, its as if the two sides think they're each of different species. Blind eye and whatnot.

 
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GoBirds said:
The Commish said:
Not supporting poor behavior in the least. Please stop projecting onto my words things you want them to mean. 

When i write things like that it's because i believe it. I've only observed politics in this country for 25ish years and while a lot of the politics are similar the moral divide is clearly different and gotten significant worse from my perspective.  I don't seem to be alone in this as we haves a mandate to be better with each other which has never been necessary in the past. If what you  are saying were true id think this mandate would have shown up long ago. 
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True, there are a handful of others in here that claim the same but we are all adults so let’s act like it and this should work out. It’s not a valid excuse just because it’s a common talking point in here. Thanks. 
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I don't know what "excuse" you are referring too.  Are we talking about the "it's the same as it's ever been" you suggested above?  I'm good with agreeing that's not a valid excuse because #1, things are pretty different today than they were, say, during the GWB years and #2 it's pretty obvious the mods and Joe himself see a significant difference otherwise he'd not step in and say things need to change.  If this isn't where you're going and you'd like to clarify, please do.

 
Mr Anonymous said:
Mr Anonymous said:
I've openly expressed my disdain for both parties. Yet you know who has never attacked me after any of my criticisms of Republicans here? Answer: Any of the Conservatives here. Not once.
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It struck me the importance to add one thing to this last portion of my comments above. If the demographic were reversed, and the preponderance of posters here were Republican-voting conservatives, I have zero doubt that my posts criticizing Trump and other Republicans would be the ones getting misconstrued and attacked. In such a place, my criticisms of Democrats would go by unchallenged. That is to say there is no moral superiority for either side. It simply stems from the pack mentality and strength in numbers.  People are gonna people. I'll forever be amazed when I see someone suggest otherwise. Heck in another topic here I just read someone say it was debatable if liberals partook in the same trash behavior as conservatives. Really? Really??? Again, its as if the two sides think they're each of different species. Blind eye and whatnot.
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In my experience on this board, the thing that changes most is where the attacks come from.  If you're doing it correctly, when Dems are in control, the GOP is attacking.  When the GOP is in control the Dems are attacking.  That is definitely not new to this board.  What I will say HAS changed is the form of attacks and what is being attacked.  It's gotten more and more personal as the morality becomes clearer and clearer.  As positions become more and more void of morality, the attacks become more and more personal to those pointing out how void of morality things have really gotten.  I remember a time where it appeared that the "sides" had genuine beliefs rooted in their morality.  It was two groups fighting for similar results with very different approaches.  Now, nothing could be further from the truth.  There is a complete clash and rebuff based on the morality of it all before we even get to the policy substance.  It's been quite revolting to watch.

ETA:  This comment is more about our political climate as a whole in the country more than specifically about this board even though it has trickled down to this board a bit.

 
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Ramblin Wreck said:
You've labeled me as one thing or another dozens of times over the years.  I'm sure it happens to other posters.  Just own it and move on.
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I have done that, incorrectly, and I have owned up to it and apologized for it. But that’s not what @Mr Anonymous is accusing me of. He specifically accused me of using that label in a demeaning way as a result of him criticizing something a Democrat did. To the best of my knowledge, I’ve never done that. I don’t regard being a Trump supporter as demeaning, and I certainly don’t label people that as a means of countering their arguments. If I disagree with somebody, I’m more than happy to explain why, and I think I’ve proven that over time. 

 
HellToupee said:
You’ve been labeled countless times here as a Trump supporter/voter despite being neither 
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And after RW informed me that he was not a Trump supporter, I corrected other people who called him one. 

But- I don’t believe being a Trump supporter should be regarded by anyone as an insulting label anyhow. I don’t think there’s any Trump supporter in this forum, or anyone outside this forum that I’m aware of, who supports everything Donald Trump says and does. 

 
Even being a Gary Johnson voter will get you sideways looks. That speaks volumes. "You're either with us, or against us".  Not sure why everything has to be so black or white. 

 
timschochet said:
I don’t think it’s a problem at all. They don’t bother me in the slightest. I’m very happy they’re around. 

Court Jester challenged me to name 10 Trump supporters, and in his own list mentioned tonydead, which I didn’t think was an accurate labeling- so when I responded to him I made that distinction, that’s all. 
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What's this now?  

I got called a Trump supporter recently for having the opinion that Trump's motive for wanting to host summits at his properties was to feed his pompous ego rather than to make money. That's miles away from defending or supporting Trump, but, it's against the narrative put out there and the resulting dog pile was pretty impressive.  People in here wont/can't hear anything else and that's why things wont change. Not only do you have to disavow him you have to be lock step in every narrative.  

I didn't support Trump by voting for him. 

I support Trump because he is the President and I want us to succeed.  

I support some of his policies, dont others and dislike a lot of the things he does.  

I'll decide who I support for the next election after the debates.  

 
McJose said:
I think I understand the disconnect now.

Which of Trump’s policies/actions are good for “us”?
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Why does it have to be a disconnect? I think everyone wants us to succeed. 

tonydead said:
I didn't support Trump by voting for him. 

I support Trump because he is the President and I want us to succeed.  

I support some of his policies, dont others and dislike a lot of the things he does.  
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tonydead said:
He likely got a time out for it. Mods will probably just let him fire up one of his 20 other accounts tho.  
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What is the current status on all the aliases, are they not allowed now? I know in the Kavanaugh thread a suspended party came back using an aliases and a staff member said aliases were ok, I had thought they weren’t until then? Hard to keep up sometimes. 

 
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