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Game of Thrones, tv only, books don't exist, no backstory...NERDS already ruining a series that hasn't started (4 Viewers)

Quint said:
Margaery's loyalty is to her family above all else....maybe even above her husband. this show has shown us that sitting on the Iron Throne almost guarantees an unhappy ending, and for that reason i think Tommen's time is short.

i could see a scenario where there's another regicide at her (or Loras'?) hand, taking the Sparrow and his dudes by surprise and usurping whatever power they've been able to cull so far. alternatively, maybe Cerci gets her trial by combat with FrankenMountain going 1v1 against Tommen, thereby ratcheting up the tension between mother & son & wife.
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Yes I could see Margory making a play to off Tommen, kill the Sparrow and be the sole queen putting her family in control.

 
stbugs said:
What has Olenna done so far where she was outwitted outside of the scene we just saw? Isn't that her first real effort to get Margaery out? Cersei obviously has been outwitted based on what she had to do in punishment and losing Tommen so easily. I'd say the Sparrow has outwitted Tommen the most, then Cersei, then Jamie, then Olenna and then Margaery. I put Margaery last as she was able to get out of her predicament on her own without doing the walk of shame.
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You mean besides killing Joffrey with absolutely no suspicion at all?

 
stbugs said:
What has Olenna done so far where she was outwitted outside of the scene we just saw? Isn't that her first real effort to get Margaery out? Cersei obviously has been outwitted based on what she had to do in punishment and losing Tommen so easily. I'd say the Sparrow has outwitted Tommen the most, then Cersei, then Jamie, then Olenna and then Margaery. I put Margaery last as she was able to get out of her predicament on her own without doing the walk of shame.
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She met with the Sparrow before and got rebuffed after Margaery and Loras got tossed into the clink. The Sparrow has outplayed everyone so far in King's Landing with the possible exception of Margaery whose game hasn't been revealed yet. 

 
packersfan said:
She met with the Sparrow before and got rebuffed after Margaery and Loras got tossed into the clink. The Sparrow has outplayed everyone so far in King's Landing with the possible exception of Margaery whose game hasn't been revealed yet. 
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Margaery did get outplayed the first time in the "trial" where she got tossed into the clink because of her knowledge of Loras. That said, I think she has fared the best in that she was able to play Tommen to get her (and I assume Loras) back out of the clink. I think the Sparrow helped her convince him, but I think Margaery got Tommen to agree to the solution.

 
Chadstroma said:
My bad. I read it wrong. I thought you were asking what Olenna has done so far inasmuch as being a 'good' player.
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No worries, I remember that, but was just trying to see if I missed another attempt. Since this isn't her castle, she was a bit more hamstrung and I thought this was her first real attempt to take care of the situation. The initial discussion with the Sparrow wasn't going to do anything.

 
stbugs said:
Margaery did get outplayed the first time in the "trial" where she got tossed into the clink because of her knowledge of Loras. That said, I think she has fared the best in that she was able to play Tommen to get her (and I assume Loras) back out of the clink. I think the Sparrow helped her convince him, but I think Margaery got Tommen to agree to the solution.
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Agree with the first sentence. That's why I said I think the Sparrow has outplayed everyone in King's Landing so far. What I meant by Margaery is her latest game in terms of getting out of prison. I think she's got something going on now (which seems obvious given what we know of her) beyond just her desire to get out of prison. I think she's been working the Sparrow which leads me to think that of all the people in King's Landing she may be the one with the best opportunity to finally beat him. No one else has been able to get it done to this point.

 
Chadstroma said:
I am trying to figure out Margery's angle here. There is no reason to believe that she really broke and is in the Sparrow's camp having turned Tommen. Now, obviously Tommen is turned because he is easily swayed but though it may have helped her and her brother out (though that was not clear)- now what?

The Sparrow is just playing the master chess players like Cercei and Olenna like newbs.
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Has Cersei ever made a good big picture strategic move?  Genuine question. Perhaps, from her perspective, having Robert killed, but that sequence of events was arguably set in motion by Littlefinger

 
thecatch said:
Has Cersei ever made a good big picture strategic move?  Genuine question. Perhaps, from her perspective, having Robert killed, but that sequence of events was arguably set in motion by Littlefinger
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I think Cersei is too moved by the hate in her to really think in strategic moves. She is certainly a schemer but it is usually tactically "KILL!" than anything else which was odd to see her be the one calming Jamie down and telling him to be patient and to head to Riverrun with the Lannister army.

 
Quint said:
Margaery's loyalty is to her family above all else....maybe even above her husband. this show has shown us that sitting on the Iron Throne almost guarantees an unhappy ending, and for that reason i think Tommen's time is short.

i could see a scenario where there's another regicide at her (or Loras'?) hand, taking the Sparrow and his dudes by surprise and usurping whatever power they've been able to cull so far. alternatively, maybe Cerci gets her trial by combat with FrankenMountain going 1v1 against Tommen, thereby ratcheting up the tension between mother & son & wife.
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I like where you are headed here.

How about this:

Frankenmountain's opponent turns out to be Loras.  Recall that the Mountain was humiliated by Loras at the joust in Season1 (not that he needs any additional motivation in his current zombie state, but it's there.)  And we know Loras would do anything to end his imprisonment. 

Loras meets the same fate as Oberyn, maybe is pulverized even more so.  Margaery is incensed at Cersei for this, and takes Tommen's life as retribution.  She sets up the Sparrow to take the blame for it somehow.  She wins.

 
thecatch said:
Has Cersei ever made a good big picture strategic move?  Genuine question. Perhaps, from her perspective, having Robert killed, but that sequence of events was arguably set in motion by Littlefinger
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Off the top of my head I don't think she has and it's probably because she typically reacts emotionally. She's not calculated like Tyrion is or her father was. I think deep down she really wishes she could be more like Tyrion in terms of how calculated he can plot and see the big picture but she'll never have that grasp or his cunning. She lacks his empathy and that prevents her from seeing how things can unfold around her. 

 
Was it odd to anyone else that Cersei wasn't even in the big scene with her son, Jamie, and the High Sparrow in the center of town?

I thought maybe she had been off traveling somewhere but there she was in the next scene. Maybe I missed something though?

Seemed very weird to me that she wasn't there, at the very least you'd think she would wanna see Margery do the walk of shame.

 
Skoo said:
Was it odd to anyone else that Cersei wasn't even in the big scene with her son, Jamie, and the High Sparrow in the center of town?

I thought maybe she had been off traveling somewhere but there she was in the next scene. Maybe I missed something though?

Seemed very weird to me that she wasn't there, at the very least you'd think she would wanna see Margery do the walk of shame.
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For her own safety, Tommen had her sequestered to a certain part of the Castle.  

 
packersfan said:
Off the top of my head I don't think she has and it's probably because she typically reacts emotionally. She's not calculated like Tyrion is or her father was. I think deep down she really wishes she could be more like Tyrion in terms of how calculated he can plot and see the big picture but she'll never have that grasp or his cunning. She lacks his empathy and that prevents her from seeing how things can unfold around her. 
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Right, and in many cases her decisions have been unmitigated disasters. Yet I still see references to her being one of the great chess players in the show. :shrug:  

 
Maybe a little odd, but this is someone who got put through the ringer by the sparrow we are talking about.  I could see her sitting that one out.

 
thecatch said:
Has Cersei ever made a good big picture strategic move?  Genuine question. Perhaps, from her perspective, having Robert killed, but that sequence of events was arguably set in motion by Littlefinger
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In the sense it's all about protecting her and Jaime and their children IMO yes. If they're revealed as incestuous parents everything's gone. That also makes them extremely vulnerable because they get jerked around and they have to do erratic things. But in the end everything is long game, they still have a solid shot of pulling it off and if Joffrey wasn't such a psychopath they'd all be sitting pretty, Tywin would be alive to boot.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
In the sense it's all about protecting her and Jaime and their children IMO yes. If they're revealed as incestuous parents everything's gone. That also makes them extremely vulnerable because they get jerked around and they have to do erratic things. But in the end everything is long game, they still have a solid shot of pulling it off and if Joffrey wasn't such a psychopath they'd all be sitting pretty, Tywin would be alive to boot.
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So she's doing a good job of protecting her family? Dad's dead, Jamie's lost his hand, she's done the walk of poo, daughter dead, oldest son dead and youngest son now completely out of her control and likely dead soon. Seems like she's playing games with emotions and losing  

Also, everyone already knows about their incest. There's just a difference between knowing and stopping them.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
In the sense it's all about protecting her and Jaime and their children IMO yes. If they're revealed as incestuous parents everything's gone. That also makes them extremely vulnerable because they get jerked around and they have to do erratic things. But in the end everything is long game, they still have a solid shot of pulling it off and if Joffrey wasn't such a psychopath they'd all be sitting pretty, Tywin would be alive to boot.
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Her inability to control Joffrey got him killed (and started a huge a costly civil war) and her vengeful attitude toward Tyrion indirectly got her daughter killed. Her mishandling of the Sparrow has caused her to be disgraced and Jamie to be exiled from the capital.  Seems like she's struggling on the protecting front. 

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
In the sense it's all about protecting her and Jaime and their children IMO yes. If they're revealed as incestuous parents everything's gone. That also makes them extremely vulnerable because they get jerked around and they have to do erratic things. But in the end everything is long game, they still have a solid shot of pulling it off and if Joffrey wasn't such a psychopath they'd all be sitting pretty, Tywin would be alive to boot.
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I think she's misread pretty much everything. She had Robert killed which put her psycho son in charge. She misread him rather badly which led to Ned being beheaded which led to the whole fight with the North which resulted in Tywin coming to King's Landing which resulted in him being killed by Tyrion. I think you could pretty much blame Cersei for everything that's gone wrong in King's Landing since the show began. She may be trying to protect Jamie and her children but she's botched things up pretty badly trying to do it. As Tyrion mockingly said to her once, "How does it feel to be the disappointing child?" I really think her complete lack of empathy is her greatest weakness. Her only sense of feelings are her own. She can't see beyond her own needs and as a result all her decisions are short-sighted and tragically doomed to fail.

 
stbugs said:
What has Olenna done so far where she was outwitted outside of the scene we just saw? Isn't that her first real effort to get Margaery out? Cersei obviously has been outwitted based on what she had to do in punishment and losing Tommen so easily. I'd say the Sparrow has outwitted Tommen the most, then Cersei, then Jamie, then Olenna and then Margaery. I put Margaery last as she was able to get out of her predicament on her own without doing the walk of shame.
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How about Margery/Loras getting put in there in the first place?  Didn't that whole thing happen because Margery/Olenna started up some duel with Cersei the fool and got pwned?  Granted, Cersei pwned herself as well in the process but the point still stands.

 
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Chadstroma said:
Later, Gendry was giving her grief like "you could have ended this whole war by naming Joffrey, etc and you did what?" Their perspective was her three names were fulfilled. :shrug:   So, maybe you have a technicality to work from but I am thinking no.
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Kind of gives some perspective on how much Arya messed that up.  If she names Joffrey and Tywin (Tywin was even there at the time, if I recall) then the Red Wedding never happens and Robb probably finishes rolling through what's left of the Lannister army on his way to the throne and all of the Starks are re-united.

 
sartre said:
I like where you are headed here.

How about this:

Frankenmountain's opponent turns out to be Loras.  Recall that the Mountain was humiliated by Loras at the joust in Season1 (not that he needs any additional motivation in his current zombie state, but it's there.)  And we know Loras would do anything to end his imprisonment. 

Loras meets the same fate as Oberyn, maybe is pulverized even more so.  Margaery is incensed at Cersei for this, and takes Tommen's life as retribution.  She sets up the Sparrow to take the blame for it somehow.  She wins.
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Show Spoiler:

There will be no trial by combat
 
FreeBaGeL said:
How about Margery/Loras getting put in there in the first place?  Didn't that whole thing happen because Margery/Olenna started up some duel with Cersei and got pwned?  Granted, Cersei pwned herself as well in the process but the point still stands.
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I'll be honest, I don't even recall what the exact scenarios were, but I am pretty sure that it wasn't Margaery/Olenna that helped put the sparrow in power.

 
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stbugs said:
I'll be honest, I don't even recall what the exact scenarios were, but I am pretty sure that it wasn't Margaery/Olenna that helped put the sparrow in power.
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Right, it was Cersei, the person that Margery/Olenna were feuding with.  You asked where else Olenna was outwitted.  She went up against Cersei (whom everyone else has owned no problemo) and Cersei got both of Olenna's grandkids locked up.

She's been getting worked over pretty good since the Joffrey thing, where she had Littlefinger's help.

 
ConnSKINS26 said:
Right. Once she's pregnant all bets are off, because she can be Queen Regent with a Small Council full of Tyrells once there's a baby.
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What have we seen that shows us that Margery or even Olenna would be so ruthless as to kill Tommen without direct provocation (e.g., he begins torturing Margery a la Joffrey-Sansa)?

 
Psychopav said:
What have we seen that shows us that Margery or even Olenna would be so ruthless as to kill Tommen without direct provocation (e.g., he begins torturing Margery a la Joffrey-Sansa)?
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Nothing, and I'm not sure its likely at all. But if his ties to the Church get in their way, or his ties to the other Lannisters, etc...who knows. Tommen is definitely dying.

 
FreeBaGeL said:
Right, it was Cersei, the person that Margery/Olenna were feuding with.  You asked where else Olenna was outwitted.  She went up against Cersei (whom everyone else has owned no problemo) and Cersei got both of Olenna's grandkids locked up.

She's been getting worked over pretty good since the Joffrey thing, where she had Littlefinger's help.
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I was talking about with the sparrow, but no worries, good point.

 
Margery definitely has something planned that involves her family taking the throne. She was just telling Loras that they need to do whatever it takes to get out of there. And pretty sure she wants nothing to do with Tommens pansy ### after leaving her there for months. 

 
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fruity pebbles said:
Margery definitely has something planned that involves her family taking the throne. She was just telling Loras that they need to do whatever it takes to get out of there. And pretty sure she wants nothing to do with Tommens pansy ### after leaving her there for months. 
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As someone else said she probably needs Tommen to get her pregnant before she can be rid of him. And she'll need a son. So she needs him around for a little while longer at least. But Tommen was always just her way of getting to the throne. I don't think him leaving her in the prison did anything to sour her feelings for him. I'm not sure if she ever really had any to begin with.

 
Who says it HAS to be Tommen's kid? Just has to be a kid that could be Tommen's.  Not as if he's the sharpest tool in the shed, nor one that can't be convinced to do, well, just about anything.  Get her knocked up, have Tommen think it's his, then boom.  

 
Koya said:
Who says it HAS to be Tommen's kid? Just has to be a kid that could be Tommen's.  Not as if he's the sharpest tool in the shed, nor one that can't be convinced to do, well, just about anything.  Get her knocked up, have Tommen think it's his, then boom.  
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Yeah but given all the problems that's gone on with the Lannisters is that really what you'd wanna be doing following their game plan? Besides, Tommen's not a bad kid. You can manipulate him around to do your bidding. He doesn't need to be killed. You can keep him on a leash and run things however you want. Like you said, he's not the sharpest tool in the shed so he isn't likely gonna figure out what's really going on. Once you get your son you can do whatever it is you really want to do with him if you don't want him around any more. 

 
packersfan said:
Yeah but given all the problems that's gone on with the Lannisters is that really what you'd wanna be doing following their game plan? Besides, Tommen's not a bad kid. You can manipulate him around to do your bidding. He doesn't need to be killed. You can keep him on a leash and run things however you want. Like you said, he's not the sharpest tool in the shed so he isn't likely gonna figure out what's really going on. Once you get your son you can do whatever it is you really want to do with him if you don't want him around any more. 
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Plus, she was willing to screw the gay guy who was shtupping her brother just to get a kid.  Comparatively speaking, Tommen's gotta look like winning the Westerosi **** Powerball.

 
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