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Game of Thrones, tv only, books don't exist, no backstory...NERDS already ruining a series that hasn't started (2 Viewers)

ConnSKINS26 said:
I see a lot of where you're coming from, even if I disagree with the way you see it.

The bolded part is what I find interesting...Jon HAS no King in the North title that makes him more powerful than Sansa, they gave it to him and he threw it away (even if we know he had to, to survive the WW). Sansa is the true Stark that the North Remembered for, and the North is generally pissed that Jon GAVE UP his King in the North title for a foreign queen. If anything, Sansa has more pull in the North than Jon now. Lyanna Mormont even called Jon out in front of everyone for giving up his title. Someone called him "my grace" and she stood up and said "but you aren't, are you? You aren't anything now". He gave that up, and lost a lot of the North's respect imo, no matter how necessary it was. Add to that, that Sansa also has the Vale behind her (and possibly the Greyjoys due to Theon, but I don't think that matters at all)...she's the real power in the North, not Jon, if you set aside the army that is about to be 90% demolished fighting the dead. In terms of political capital in the North, Sansa is #1. In terms of titles, her Lady of Winterfell is the highest ranking one left, for anyone who doesn't want to follow Dany. 

All of that pales in comparison to the might Dany can bring to bear (for now), which is why she is playing chess imo, like I explained. But we see it differently, that's cool. 
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This was a lot of the reasoning I had behind my guess that 1) Sansa survives; and 2) Sansa eventually makes a play for the thrown against Jon and Dany. She just needs a King and I could see Dany doing something "mad" which causes Tyrion to no longer support her and he and Sansa finally consummate. 

 
side note: man, I was really hoping for more side eye from Jon when Dany called him 'Warden of the North'.

Dany: "And what does the Warden of the North think?"
Jon:  pfft...

 
ConnSKINS26 said:
I see a lot of where you're coming from, even if I disagree with the way you see it.

The bolded part is what I find interesting...Jon HAS no King in the North title that makes him more powerful than Sansa, they gave it to him and he threw it away (even if we know he had to, to survive the WW). Sansa is the true Stark that the North Remembered for, and the North is generally pissed that Jon GAVE UP his King in the North title for a foreign queen. If anything, Sansa has more pull in the North than Jon now. Lyanna Mormont even called Jon out in front of everyone for giving up his title. Someone called him "my grace" and she stood up and said "but you aren't, are you? You aren't anything now". He gave that up, and lost a lot of the North's respect imo, no matter how necessary it was. Add to that, that Sansa also has the Vale behind her (and possibly the Greyjoys due to Theon, but I don't think that matters at all)...she's the real power in the North, not Jon, if you set aside the army that is about to be 90% demolished fighting the dead. In terms of political capital in the North, Sansa is #1. 

All of that pales in comparison to the might Dany can bring to bear (for now), which is why she is playing chess imo, like I explained. But we see it differently, that's cool. 
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Well, all of the 7 kingdoms either were conquered or gave up their title to the original Targ conquerors - no different than Jon. So either his title meant nothing to begin with - or his subjects are all traitors. He was their king. He decided to kneel to save his kingdom. Those that act against those wishes are traitors.

Sansa's army is already demolished - or will be with the upcoming battle. All who are loyal are already at Winterfell - that was just mentioned in the past episode. There is no intelligent reason to become adversarial towards Dany. It puts an unnecessary target on your back.

 
cap'n grunge said:
Everyone assumes the crypts are going to come alive, but have we seen the WW raise any except the newly dead before?
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Closest I can think of is the skeletons right before Bran met the 3 eyed raven outside of the tree. Although, the NK wasn’t there, so who knows

 
cap'n grunge said:
Everyone assumes the crypts are going to come alive, but have we seen the WW raise any except the newly dead before?
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What was the deal with the old, decrepit skeletons outside the Three Eyed Ravens home? They animated and came out of the ground and didn't seem freshly killed.

Always thought that was weird since it's only when Bran is marked inside his vision by the Night King that the Three Eyed Raven and Bran are found. You could argue the NK knew where they were all along but couldn't get in without the mark, but why not surround the area with undead to begin with if that's the case?

This imo gets into all the stuff about a lot of these events needing to happen, even if in the short term it is seemingly against the NK's goals. Prophecy type stuff. 

 
cap'n grunge said:
Everyone assumes the crypts are going to come alive, but have we seen the WW raise any except the newly dead before?
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When Bran and company were running to take shelter in the three eyed raven cave for the first time (when Jojen dies), weren’t random skeletons just popping up out of the ground and attacking them?  I could be wrong about that. Edit: apparently several others had the same thought

 
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sn0mm1s said:
Well, all of the 7 kingdoms either were conquered or gave up their title to the original Targ conquerors - no different than Jon. So either his title meant nothing to begin with - or his subjects are all traitors. He was their king. He decided to kneel to save his kingdom. Those that act against those wishes are traitors.

Sansa's army is already demolished - or will be with the upcoming battle. All who are loyal are already at Winterfell - that was just mentioned in the past episode. There is no intelligent reason to become adversarial towards Dany. It puts an unnecessary target on your back.
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let's not forget the real life fact that women are often just straight up catty with each other for no good reason

 
One thing that I hope happens is: as they are battling the White Walkers, and one gets killed, they show a shot of the dead army and all the wights created by that particular WW collapse in unison and you can see gaps start to appear in the dead army. 

PS-Showrunners, holla at me if you want some input on the spinoffs :brush:  

 
ConnSKINS26 said:
What was the deal with the old, decrepit skeletons outside the Three Eyed Ravens home? They animated and came out of the ground and didn't seem freshly killed.

Always thought that was weird since it's only when Bran is marked inside his vision by the Night King that the Three Eyed Raven and Bran are found. You could argue the NK knew where they were all along but couldn't get in without the mark, but why not surround the area with undead to begin with if that's the case?

This imo gets into all the stuff about a lot of these events needing to happen, even if in the short term it is seemingly against the NK's goals. Prophecy type stuff. 
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I thought I read (it wasn't book stuff as that didn't happen in the books) that those skeletons were put there to kill any future Three Eyed Ravens that would be summoned. 

 
sn0mm1s said:
Well, all of the 7 kingdoms either were conquered or gave up their title to the original Targ conquerors - no different than Jon. So either his title meant nothing to begin with - or his subjects are all traitors. He was their king. He decided to kneel to save his kingdom. Those that act against those wishes are traitors.

Sansa's army is already demolished - or will be with the upcoming battle. All who are loyal are already at Winterfell - that was just mentioned in the past episode. There is no intelligent reason to become adversarial towards Dany. It puts an unnecessary target on your back.
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Dany's army and dragons are going to take a major beating as well. There's really no telling what the balance of power looks like even if all of Sansa, Jon, and Dany survive this battle. Sansa is smarter and probably has a majority of the Vale's forces that normally stay home ready to march. She's already made a similar move once before, and not told Jon. 

Re: the bolded--you could argue the opposite. The people on this show aren't always rational with their vows and honor. We know it was necessary, but it could very well be that the Bannerman in the North see their newly proclaimed King in the North leaving the North and kneeling before a foreign queen in Dragonstone, with no input, as the real treason. From their POV they didn't name him King in order to do that--and he knew that, he knew he didn't intend to kneel when he left the North. It's strikingly similar to his murder at the hands of his own men at the Wall when he let the Wildlings through--in their minds, he was the traitor, not them for murdering him. If enough people feel that way it becomes the reality. It didn't at the Wall, but who knows about now. 

Again, on a macro level it's obvious Jon did what he needed to do to survive the WW invasion. But on a micro level, the North might not be able to let it go. Right now, Sansa is the one upholding their beliefs and fighting for a free North. Northerners are just built different. 

 
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ConnSKINS26 said:
Dany's army and dragons are going to take a major beating as well. There's really no telling what the balance of power looks like even if all of Sansa, Jon, and Dany survive this battle. Sansa is smarter and probably has a majority of the Vale's forces that normally stay home ready to march. She's already made a similar move once before, and not told Jon. 

Re: the bolded--you could argue the opposite. The people on this show aren't always rational with their vows and honor. We know it was necessary, but it could very well be that the Bannerman in the North see their newly proclaimed King in the North leaving the North and kneeling before a foreign queen in Dragonstone, with no input, as the real treason. From their POV they didn't name him King in order to do that--and he knew that, he knew he didn't intend to kneel when he left the North. It's strikingly similar to his murder at the hands of his own men at the Wall when he let the Wildlings through--in their minds, he was the traitor, not them for murdering him. If enough people feel that way it becomes the reality. It didn't at the Wall, but who knows about now. 

Again, on a macro level it's obvious Jon did what he needed to do to survive the WW invasion. But on a micro level, the North might not be able to let it go. Right now, Sansa is the one upholding their beliefs and fighting for a free North. Northerners are just built different. 
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Yeah, I have no doubt everyone is going to take some serious losses. That isn't the issue. The issue is that Sansa, as it stands, is not in any position of power if she wants Winterfell and the North to continue to exist. That may change after the battle - but she shouldn't show her animosity towards the person who currently wields that power over her.

 
sn0mm1s said:
Yeah, I have no doubt everyone is going to take some serious losses. That isn't the issue. The issue is that Sansa, as it stands, is not in any position of power if she wants Winterfell and the North to continue to exist. That may change after the battle - but she shouldn't show her animosity towards the person who currently wields that power over her.
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She has an army that Dany needs to help fight the WW.  And visa versa, nothing wrong in asking what's in it for me.

 
matuski said:
I counted 22.
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Gotta be way more than that, right? It's at least hundreds but possibly thousands of years of mainline Starks down there. We usually spend time in the one passageway that has both Ned and Lynanna, but I always had the impression the crypts were pretty sprawling down there and we just never explored further on the show.

Even if the only Starks down there are each generation's patriarch and his children (which I doubt, it's probably all of them if their bodies are recoverable), that's a lot more than 22 dead Starks. 

 
ConnSKINS26 said:
Gotta be way more than that, right? It's at least hundreds but possibly thousands of years of mainline Starks down there. We usually spend time in the one passageway that has both Ned and Lynanna, but I always had the impression the crypts were pretty sprawling down there and we just never explored further on the show.

Even if the only Starks down there are each generation's patriarch and his children (which I doubt, it's probably all of them if their bodies are recoverable), that's a lot more than 22 dead Starks. 
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OK I'll meet you half way and say 304.

No, I'm sticking with 22.

 
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thecatch said:
Yara negotiated independence for the Iron Islands IIRC so yeah, it’s certainly reasonable for Sansa to explore a similar arrangement. 
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I forgot about that. Yeah nobody really cares about the ####ty Iron Islands but that's still down to six kingdoms. And Sansa is a similarly aggressively confident woman, like Yara, and really the North is almost as useless to the other Kingdoms as the Iron Islands are.  It's main use was as a buffer between the Wildlings and the rest, which isn't a problem anymore. 

It would be a similar compromise, though Yara had ships Dany needed really badly to cross the sea to Westeros at the time, so that was a strong bargaining chip. Keeping Jon from pressing his rightful claim to the throne could be a similar bargaining chip, and would right any wrongs the Northerners believe he took part in by kneeling for a short time. He's never wanted power anyways. 

 
Gr00vus said:
That's a thing I've been wondering - seems like we've only seen them reanimate things they'd killed themselves, not any old random dead thing.
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A bunch of really dead skeletons came out of the ground in front of the 3 eyed ravens tree cave a few seasons ago. They weren't fresh.

I see 97 people already posted this. My bad.

 
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badmojo1006 said:
Interesting that some of behind the scenes (Director for example) worked episode 1,2,4. David Nutter is a good director, wonder why he didn't direct episode 3.
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The logistics behind episode 3 sound like they might be harder than having a bunch of dudes sitting around talking and a dong blessed squire singing pretty. 

 
Yankee23Fan said:
A bunch of really dead skeletons came out of the ground in front of the 3 eyed ravens tree cave a few seasons ago. They weren't fresh.
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They could have been killed by the Others some time previous to when they were planted. It's not like they have a "best if used by" date or something.  :shrug:

In the end, I really wish this story wasn't so wrapped up in resolving the whole zombie deal (or even had a zombie component at all). I get it, it's a fantasy setting, but the dragons and zombies and stuff have never been the things that drew me in.

 
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Gr00vus said:
They could have been killed by the Others some time previous to when they were planted. It's not like they have a "best if used by" date or something.  :shrug:

In the end, I really wish this story wasn't so wrapped up in resolving the whole zombie deal (or even had a zombie component at all). I get it, it's a fantasy setting, but the dragons and zombies and stuff have never been the things that drew me in.
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I'm with you.  The politics of this show and the ever moving loyalties are what I like.

 
Yankee23Fan said:
A bunch of really dead skeletons came out of the ground in front of the 3 eyed ravens tree cave a few seasons ago. They weren't fresh.
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The night king wasn't there, though.  

I got the impression at the time that those guys were already wights and had just been lying dormant in the snow for ages waiting for that moment.  The 3 eyed raven knew it, the children knew it, Jordan reed knew it and knew he was going to get stabbed... 

 
Yankee23Fan said:
I'm with you.  The politics of this show and the ever moving loyalties are what I like.
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Yeah. IIRC you were the person that first clued me in to the whole war of the roses thing as a major influence on the story. I think the way Martin has captured that flavor is one of the main things that makes the story compelling to me. In fact, the other day I flashed back to that and was wondering if there's a Tudor representative (besides Natalie Dormer) in this story. Baratheons? Seems tentative.

 
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thecatch said:
I was catching up on Talk the Thrones, and they pointed out the two halves of what used to be the Stark family sword, are in Winterfell with Brienne and Jaime.  I wonder if the Stark sword gets put back together again if something happens to those two. 
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One of the books Sam took is probably Valyrian Steel for Dummies.

 
Yankee23Fan said:
Gr00vus said:
They could have been killed by the Others some time previous to when they were planted. It's not like they have a "best if used by" date or something.  :shrug:

In the end, I really wish this story wasn't so wrapped up in resolving the whole zombie deal (or even had a zombie component at all). I get it, it's a fantasy setting, but the dragons and zombies and stuff have never been the things that drew me in.
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I'm with you.  The politics of this show and the ever moving loyalties are what I like
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Same here. Although I do like the how the fantasy setting was woven into the politics. I would have been fine if the dead stayed north of the wall though

 
bostonfred said:
badmojo1006 said:
Interesting that some of behind the scenes (Director for example) worked episode 1,2,4. David Nutter is a good director, wonder why he didn't direct episode 3.
Click to expand...
The logistics behind episode 3 sound like they might be harder than having a bunch of dudes sitting around talking and a dong blessed squire singing pretty. 
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They used a director that's done some of the other big war episodes.

 
Gr00vus said:
They could have been killed by the Others some time previous to when they were planted. It's not like they have a "best if used by" date or something.  :shrug:

In the end, I really wish this story wasn't so wrapped up in resolving the whole zombie deal (or even had a zombie component at all). I get it, it's a fantasy setting, but the dragons and zombies and stuff have never been the things that drew me in.
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100% with you.  I get it has to be done now, but some of these predictions have me scared how this thing is going to wrap up.  Arya taking out Ice Dragons?  8000 years of Starks rising from the grave?  Yuck.  Give me the small interactions that this series has excelled at every time over that stuff.  

People joke and take shots at the people being critical of a couple episodes, and didn't somebody just ask why some people are still watching the show?  On the flip side, I wonder how people lasted through the first Season + without zombie armies and huge battle scenes ;)  

 
Remember for 3 seasons we had a post a page on how bran would one day warg into the dragons and make them do ####.  

That off the table now or nah?

 
sn0mm1s said:
Exactly. So now Dany thinks/knows Sansa doesn't want her as her queen and Jon - someone close to Sansa - has a better birthright claim. Why would this be good to let Dany know? It makes no sense.
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That’s who Jon is.  No different as when he couldn’t lie to Cersi at the big meeting in KL.  He’s honest to a fault.

 
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