Game of Thrones, tv only, books don't exist, no backstory...NERDS already ruining a series that hasn't started (4 Viewers)

[dhockster]

great now they're going to start implementing pat downs and metal detectors outside the arena before the matches. get there early

Are they going to put a jail in the stadium like they did at the Vet?

 

[flapgreen]

Gonna start calling them the Larpys. Every fight scene theyre in looks like live action role playing. About ready for one of them to scream lightning bolt.

Perfect description. Couldn't think of a better way to describe it.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I understand the rage against Stannis right now, but most viewers seem to think that Jaime Lannister is an OK guy- if they're not rooting for him exactly, they're not rooting against him either. But remember what he did at the end of the very first episode of this series?

Pushing someone else's kid off a ledge is pretty terrible, but I'm not really sure it's quite the same thing as sentencing your innocent daughter to get burned alive in front of her mother and everyone else when all you have to do is say the word and you can save her.

What Jaime did was much worse than what Stannis did.

When Jaime tried to kill a young boy, he did it out of love for Cersei. Love is not the worst reason in the world to do something, but in this case, it was rather selfish.

When Stannis killed his daughter, it was to help him take the Iron throne (which is just as selfish as Jaime's motive), but it was also to help take Winterfell instead of having all of his men die. Taking one life to save a whole bunch of lives isn't quite so evil.

On that subject- why was it necessary to do that? Even if Stannis believed they had to kill her, why not do so in a quick and painless way so that she never has to know her father was responsible and his mother doesn't have to listen to her child's tortured screams?

They burned her at the stake in the quickest, most painless way they could that would satisfy the Lord of Light.

Understanding that degrees of bad-ness are fairly subjective, I think this ignores a couple things and makes some unfounded (to my knowledge) assumptions. First, it ignores that he killed his own daughter and that he did so in front of the girl's mother. Obviously killing a non-relative is not really kosher either, but I think most people would say that killing your own daughter is much worse. If there were two young girls killed one in the same city one day, one by a family acquaintance and the other by her father, we know which story the media would run with as the greater attention-grabbing tragedy. It would be even worse if the child-killing was drawn out and in front of the mother as she begged the father to stop, while the other was a spur of the moment CYA type reaction.

Also, how did it save lives? It kept them alive for a bit longer so they could die for him in battle at Winterfell, but that's a short-term life-saving at best. Advantageous for Stannis, sure, but I'm not sure it was a selfless act of mercy. If his interest was in saving lives rather than gaining power they could just turn around and go back to Castle Black.

Finally, how was the ceremony and the burning at the stake the quickest and most painless way to satisfy the Lord of Light? I'm wondering if I missed something here, not challenging your statement.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I understand the rage against Stannis right now, but most viewers seem to think that Jaime Lannister is an OK guy- if they're not rooting for him exactly, they're not rooting against him either. But remember what he did at the end of the very first episode of this series?

Pushing someone else's kid off a ledge is pretty terrible, but I'm not really sure it's quite the same thing as sentencing your innocent daughter to get burned alive in front of her mother and everyone else when all you have to do is say the word and you can save her.

What Jaime did was much worse than what Stannis did.

When Jaime tried to kill a young boy, he did it out of love for Cersei. Love is not the worst reason in the world to do something, but in this case, it was rather selfish.

When Stannis killed his daughter, it was to help him take the Iron throne (which is just as selfish as Jaime's motive if you don't take any of that duty-to-fulfill-destiny stuff seriously), but it was also to help take Winterfell instead of having all of his men die. Taking one life to save a whole bunch of lives isn't quite so evil.

On that subject- why was it necessary to do that? Even if Stannis believed they had to kill her, why not do so in a quick and painless way so that she never has to know her father was responsible and his mother doesn't have to listen to her child's tortured screams?

They burned her at the stake in the quickest, most painless way they could that would satisfy the Lord of Light.

What exactly is GRRM's, the author's, take on the LOL anyway?

Is this leading to something where Stannis gets some mystical payoff, or is this just superstition and he just literally burned away his one shred of decency, the one good thing he had created in his life, on a pyre for a hot redheaded witch with great ####?

 

[Dan Lambskin]

The dragon idea was probably cool in theory as they are writing it down, but it didnt come off great for a number of reasons. Still great TV and Ill be back for next week

Honestly, if everyone is going to live, why not just have the dragon do a circle around Dany and torch all the harpies? Do that and you have the same result without the goofy parts. I don't even care about the hesitating to engage all at once as I did about not one person throwing a spear at Dany off and on the dragon. They hit the dragon without much of an issue.

Looked to me like it ran out of fire

 

[T J]

Isn't it likely she was just getting away momentarily? And that she'll be back very shortly once things aren't life-threatening at the immediate moment? I never felt like she was leaving, leaving.

 

[flapgreen]

The show is really making the Unsullied look a bunch of #####es. Hard to understand that. The Unsullied are the greatest warriors around and they can't seem to do anything right. Clown guys look unstoppable.

At the risk of pulling a Timmy....They fight more along the lines of the Hopilites of ancient Greece. Think along the lines of a Spartan. (My guess is that Martin took his inspiration for the Unsullied from them) They are a great fighting unit in warfare where they use the tactics of interlocking shields and spear thrusts. In one on one battle and being outnumbered, they are at a disadvantage. You kill one person with a spear it takes time to recover and in that time you can be bum rushed by others.

They keep getting worked over by a bunch of masked peasants in dresses with knives.

Right. They're not exactly fighting a large military force. Unsullied shouldn't have to be in the perfect position to win a battle. Heck they're not even around much. Who's planning out all of this stuff? Shouldn't Tyrion be setting up some type of defense? The boy toy is worthless, just cracks jokes and screws.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Also, how did it save lives? It kept them alive for a bit longer so they could die for him in battle at Winterfell, but that's a short-term life-saving at best. Advantageous for Stannis, sure, but I'm not sure it was a selfless act of mercy. If his interest was in saving lives rather than gaining power they could just turn around and go back to Castle Black.

Finally, how was the ceremony and the burning at the stake the quickest and most painless way to satisfy the Lord of Light? I'm wondering if I missed something here, not challenging your statement.

If they move forward and attack Winterfell*, they'll all die without the Lord of Light's magic. If they kill Shireen, they might still all die, but this way they'll have a chance.

Burning her at the stake was the quickest, most painless way to kill Shireen possible, we can assume, because Stannis loves Shireen very much and would not want to inflict any needless pain on her. Stannis isn't a monster. He's just a man very driven to fulfill his destiny of being king, having to make some very difficult decisions along the way.

I'm not defending Stannis from the charge of being an ###. He's always been an ###. But he's not a sadist like Joffrey or Ramsay. If he could have satisfied the Lord of Light in a less horrible way for Shireen, he would have.

___

*Yes, they could turn around and return to Castle Black. Might be the best decision, but Stannis rejected it for other reasons that have nothing to do with killing Shireen. He's marching forward no matter what.

 

[El Floppo]

wait- burning is quicker and less painful than beheading?

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

What exactly is GRRM's, the author's, take on the LOL anyway?

I don't think GRRM worships the Lord of Light in real life. But I think it's clear that the Lord of Light has some legitimate magical powers in The Universe of Ice and Fire.

Is this leading to something where Stannis gets some mystical payoff, or is this just superstition and he just literally burned away his one shred of decency, the one good thing he had created in his life, on a pyre for a hot redheaded witch with great ####?

The Lord of Light is not just a superstition. We've seen the magic. It killed Renly.

That doesn't mean, of course, that the Lord of Light will continue to help Stannis. Gods can be double-crossing pricks sometimes -- not just in real life, but in novels TV shows as well.

 

[dutch]

wait- burning is quicker and less painful than beheading?

MT is acknowledging that burning Shireen was the necessary mode of death but qualifying that burning at the stake was less painful than say roasting her over a fire on a spit or lighting individual body parts aflame one at a time like the Bolton ******* may have done in Stannis' place..

 

[Good Posting Judge]

Do you guys think it's acceptable to call the Lord of Light "LOL"?

 

[TobiasFunke]

Also, how did it save lives? It kept them alive for a bit longer so they could die for him in battle at Winterfell, but that's a short-term life-saving at best. Advantageous for Stannis, sure, but I'm not sure it was a selfless act of mercy. If his interest was in saving lives rather than gaining power they could just turn around and go back to Castle Black.

Finally, how was the ceremony and the burning at the stake the quickest and most painless way to satisfy the Lord of Light? I'm wondering if I missed something here, not challenging your statement.

If they move forward and attack Winterfell*, they'd all die without the Lord of Light's magic. If they kill Shireen, they might still all die, but this way they'd have a chance. Shireen would die either way, so killing her isn't really killing her. She's already dead.

Burning her at the stake was the quickest, most painless way to kill Shireen possible, we can assume, because Stannis loves Shireen very much and would not want to inflict any needless pain on her. Stannis isn't a monster. He's just a man very driven to fulfill his destiny of being king, having to make some very difficult decisions along the way.

I'm not defending Stannis from the charge of being an ###. He's always been an ###, same as day one. But he's not a sadist like Joffrey or Ramsay. If he could have satisfied the Lord of Light in a less horrible way for Shireen, he would have.

___

*Yes, they could turn around and return to Castle Black. Might be the best decision, but Stannis rejected it for other reasons that have nothing to do with killing Shireen. He's marching forward no matter what.

I guess the bolded was my problem as far as the storytelling goes. We've been led to believe Stannis isn't a monster and that he loves his daughter, and what we saw didn't jibe with that at all. So if that's still the case, the showrunners/writers should explain to us why it had to go down like this. If it was the blood that was important, there were lots of other options. If death by fire was necessary, why did it have to be done with all the pomp and circumstance and in front of the girl's mother? I'm not opposed to those things happening if there's a reason for them and we are told that reason, but the lack of explanation left us wondering why and created a disconnect with the character we'd known so far. Didn't need to be a long drawn-out boring buildup; a couple minutes here or there over the last few episodes would have done it. In fact it was such a disconnect that I was mostly just wondering if they had done something to explain it and I'd missed it.

 

[thecatch]

Also, how did it save lives? It kept them alive for a bit longer so they could die for him in battle at Winterfell, but that's a short-term life-saving at best. Advantageous for Stannis, sure, but I'm not sure it was a selfless act of mercy. If his interest was in saving lives rather than gaining power they could just turn around and go back to Castle Black.

Finally, how was the ceremony and the burning at the stake the quickest and most painless way to satisfy the Lord of Light? I'm wondering if I missed something here, not challenging your statement.

If they move forward and attack Winterfell*, they'll all die without the Lord of Light's magic. If they kill Shireen, they might still all die, but this way they'll have a chance.

Burning her at the stake was the quickest, most painless way to kill Shireen possible, we can assume, because Stannis loves Shireen very much and would not want to inflict any needless pain on her. Stannis isn't a monster. He's just a man very driven to fulfill his destiny of being king, having to make some very difficult decisions along the way.

I'm not defending Stannis from the charge of being an ###. He's always been an ###. But he's not a sadist like Joffrey or Ramsay. If he could have satisfied the Lord of Light in a less horrible way for Shireen, he would have.

___

*Yes, they could turn around and return to Castle Black. Might be the best decision, but Stannis rejected it for other reasons that have nothing to do with killing Shireen. He's marching forward no matter what.

Stannis may not be a sadist but a guy who burns his innocent daughter alive qualifies as a "monster" in my book, regardless of the asserted justification.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

So if that's still the case, the showrunners/writers should explain to us why it had to go down like this. If it was the blood that was important, there were lots of other options. If death by fire was necessary, why did it have to be done with all the pomp and circumstance and in front of the girl's mother? I'm not opposed to those things happening if there's a reason for them and we are told that reason, but the lack of explanation left us wondering why and created a disconnect with the character we'd known so far.

Who are you to question what the Lord of Light demands? Just do what His priestess says.

I think the inference that the ceremony was prescribed by Melisandre is pretty obvious since she's the one presiding over it.

 

[tonydead]

So if that's still the case, the showrunners/writers should explain to us why it had to go down like this. If it was the blood that was important, there were lots of other options. If death by fire was necessary, why did it have to be done with all the pomp and circumstance and in front of the girl's mother? I'm not opposed to those things happening if there's a reason for them and we are told that reason, but the lack of explanation left us wondering why and created a disconnect with the character we'd known so far.

Who are you to question what the Lord of Light demands? Just do what Melisandre says.

I think the inference that the ceremony was prescribed by Melisandre is pretty obvious since she's the one presiding over it.

It's pretty easy to assume he exhausted all the possibilities just like he exhausted all the possibilities in having to do it in the first place.

 

[TobiasFunke]

So if that's still the case, the showrunners/writers should explain to us why it had to go down like this. If it was the blood that was important, there were lots of other options. If death by fire was necessary, why did it have to be done with all the pomp and circumstance and in front of the girl's mother? I'm not opposed to those things happening if there's a reason for them and we are told that reason, but the lack of explanation left us wondering why and created a disconnect with the character we'd known so far.

Who are you to question what the Lord of Light demands? Just do what Melisandre says.

I think the inference that the ceremony was prescribed by Melisandre is pretty obvious since she's the one presiding over it.

It's pretty easy to assume he exhausted all the possibilities just like he exhausted all the possibilities in having to do it in the first place.

I dunno. As other people have pointed out, there are plenty of examples of people during out of character things in this universe, both good and bad. For a turn like this I'd have liked to have seen a little more explanation as to why it had to go down this terrible way- it was terrible enough to have a generally not terrible character killing his daughter, would have been nice to not be asking why it couldn't have gone down in a less cruel and miserable way as it happened.

Although to be fair I was also pretty high during the episode and I have two young daughters. I suspect this made the scene even more gut-wrenching for me than was intended.

 

[Spin]

The priestess told him in an earlier episode he had to sacrifice his daughter, and Stannis kicked her out of his tent. Then they were bogged down in the snow, and they just lost all their food supplies, horses and siege weapons. He was hopeless and did what he always does when he feels stuck. He does whatever the priestess tell him he has to do.

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

Do you guys think it's acceptable to call the Lord of Light "LOL"?

No.

 

[GregR]

Do you guys think it's acceptable to call the Lord of Light "LOL"?

No.

Very disrespectful. Better to acknowledge him as "Ruler OF Light" or perhaps "Light's Most Ascendant Ominpotence".

 

[tonydead]

So if that's still the case, the showrunners/writers should explain to us why it had to go down like this. If it was the blood that was important, there were lots of other options. If death by fire was necessary, why did it have to be done with all the pomp and circumstance and in front of the girl's mother? I'm not opposed to those things happening if there's a reason for them and we are told that reason, but the lack of explanation left us wondering why and created a disconnect with the character we'd known so far.

Who are you to question what the Lord of Light demands? Just do what Melisandre says.

I think the inference that the ceremony was prescribed by Melisandre is pretty obvious since she's the one presiding over it.

It's pretty easy to assume he exhausted all the possibilities just like he exhausted all the possibilities in having to do it in the first place.

I dunno. As other people have pointed out, there are plenty of examples of people during out of character things in this universe, both good and bad. For a turn like this I'd have liked to have seen a little more explanation as to why it had to go down this terrible way- it was terrible enough to have a generally not terrible character killing his daughter, would have been nice to not be asking why it couldn't have gone down in a less cruel and miserable way as it happened.

Although to be fair I was also pretty high during the episode and I have two young daughters. I suspect this made the scene even more gut-wrenching for me than was intended.

The out of character thing to do would have been to save her at the last minute, and they even teased you with that. I'm pretty sure gut-wrenching was what the writers were going for and they were probably banking on some of the audience having young children too. I'm pretty sure they'd call the angst you are feeling a success.

 

[TobiasFunke]

So if that's still the case, the showrunners/writers should explain to us why it had to go down like this. If it was the blood that was important, there were lots of other options. If death by fire was necessary, why did it have to be done with all the pomp and circumstance and in front of the girl's mother? I'm not opposed to those things happening if there's a reason for them and we are told that reason, but the lack of explanation left us wondering why and created a disconnect with the character we'd known so far.

Who are you to question what the Lord of Light demands? Just do what Melisandre says.

I think the inference that the ceremony was prescribed by Melisandre is pretty obvious since she's the one presiding over it.

It's pretty easy to assume he exhausted all the possibilities just like he exhausted all the possibilities in having to do it in the first place.

I dunno. As other people have pointed out, there are plenty of examples of people during out of character things in this universe, both good and bad. For a turn like this I'd have liked to have seen a little more explanation as to why it had to go down this terrible way- it was terrible enough to have a generally not terrible character killing his daughter, would have been nice to not be asking why it couldn't have gone down in a less cruel and miserable way as it happened.

Although to be fair I was also pretty high during the episode and I have two young daughters. I suspect this made the scene even more gut-wrenching for me than was intended.

The out of character thing to do would have been to save her at the last minute, and they even teased you with that. I'm pretty sure gut-wrenching was what the writers were going for and they were probably banking on some of the audience having young children too. I'm pretty sure they'd call the angst you are feeling a success.

Sure, I get that. I just felt like there was a big gap in the narrative/character development to get there- I'm fine with people who aren't just purely evil doing incredibly horrible stuff as long as I feel like I have some understanding of how they got to that place . I didn't really have that with Stannis last night. You and MT and a couple other folks are sort of helping fill that a bit, so thanks for that

 

[Good Posting Judge]

Are we sure that Shireen is really dead?

 

[flapgreen]

How much for your little clam lol

lol

 

[Chadstroma]

The show is really making the Unsullied look a bunch of #####es. Hard to understand that. The Unsullied are the greatest warriors around and they can't seem to do anything right. Clown guys look unstoppable.

At the risk of pulling a Timmy....They fight more along the lines of the Hopilites of ancient Greece. Think along the lines of a Spartan. (My guess is that Martin took his inspiration for the Unsullied from them) They are a great fighting unit in warfare where they use the tactics of interlocking shields and spear thrusts. In one on one battle and being outnumbered, they are at a disadvantage. You kill one person with a spear it takes time to recover and in that time you can be bum rushed by others.

They keep getting worked over by a bunch of masked peasants in dresses with knives.

Right. They're not exactly fighting a large military force. Unsullied shouldn't have to be in the perfect position to win a battle. Heck they're not even around much. Who's planning out all of this stuff? Shouldn't Tyrion be setting up some type of defense? The boy toy is worthless, just cracks jokes and screws.

Ok, Just go watch 300 and be happy.

 

[Chadstroma]

Are we sure that Shireen is really dead?

Burning bodies takes care of the whole WW thing.... so check.

Pretty sure she is not Targaryen.... so check.

She was a sacrafice to the LOL which is the only the way that we know of to become undead.... so check.

What other option is there?

 

[Good Posting Judge]

Are we sure that Shireen is really dead?

Burning bodies takes care of the whole WW thing.... so check.

Pretty sure she is not Targaryen.... so check.

She was a sacrafice to the LOL which is the only the way that we know of to become undead.... so check.

What other option is there?

Might have wriggled out of there at the last second?

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Also, how did it save lives? It kept them alive for a bit longer so they could die for him in battle at Winterfell, but that's a short-term life-saving at best. Advantageous for Stannis, sure, but I'm not sure it was a selfless act of mercy. If his interest was in saving lives rather than gaining power they could just turn around and go back to Castle Black.

Finally, how was the ceremony and the burning at the stake the quickest and most painless way to satisfy the Lord of Light? I'm wondering if I missed something here, not challenging your statement.

If they move forward and attack Winterfell*, they'll all die without the Lord of Light's magic. If they kill Shireen, they might still all die, but this way they'll have a chance.

Burning her at the stake was the quickest, most painless way to kill Shireen possible, we can assume, because Stannis loves Shireen very much and would not want to inflict any needless pain on her. Stannis isn't a monster. He's just a man very driven to fulfill his destiny of being king, having to make some very difficult decisions along the way.

I'm not defending Stannis from the charge of being an ###. He's always been an ###. But he's not a sadist like Joffrey or Ramsay. If he could have satisfied the Lord of Light in a less horrible way for Shireen, he would have.

___

*Yes, they could turn around and return to Castle Black. Might be the best decision, but Stannis rejected it for other reasons that have nothing to do with killing Shireen. He's marching forward no matter what.

Sometimes I can't tell when you're giving us some shtick, but in the event that you really believe the bolded to be true, that's contradicted by the earlier episodes in this season. Stannis clearly recognized that Jon killed Mance with an arrow as an act of mercy precisely because burning at the stake is NOT the quickest and most painless death that could have been offered.

It seems to me that Stannis has been portrayed as a man with two driving impulses. 1. A rough sense of justice, and 2. an ambition to fulfill what he believes is his destiny. I think it's hard to see last night's episode as anything other than Stannis effectively ignoring the first impulse in order to act on the second. It's a decision that I doubt the creators will let him come back from.

I don't really remember whether the show has emphasized it or not (I seem to remember the Rat King story), but without spoiling anything, Stannis committed what the books consider to be the one unforgivable moral sin. Killing kin.

 

[PatsWillWin]

The weirdest stuff gets argued about in here, lol.

 

[fruity pebbles]

Do you guys think it's acceptable to call the Lord of Light "LOL"?

No.

Very disrespectful. Better to acknowledge him as "Ruler OF Light" or perhaps "Light's Most Ascendant Ominpotence".

Electric Light Orchestra

 

[GregR]

...
Sure, I get that. I just felt like there was a big gap in the narrative/character development to get there- I'm fine with people who aren't just purely evil doing incredibly horrible stuff as long as I feel like I have some understanding of how they got to that place . I didn't really have that with Stannis last night. You and MT and a couple other folks are sort of helping fill that a bit, so thanks for that

Yes, seems like they made a choice. Either build up to the event more clearly like you're saying, but at the cost of it not coming as a shock or surprise. Or let it just stand on things said in previous shows, enough to be put together but not at the front of your thoughts to maximize the surprise of it.

I'm not sure there was a right or wrong answer.

 

[Chadstroma]

Are we sure that Shireen is really dead?

Burning bodies takes care of the whole WW thing.... so check.

Pretty sure she is not Targaryen.... so check.

She was a sacrafice to the LOL which is the only the way that we know of to become undead.... so check.

What other option is there?

Might have wriggled out of there at the last second?

 

[dhockster]

Do you guys think it's acceptable to call the Lord of Light "LOL"?

No.

Very disrespectful. Better to acknowledge him as "Ruler OF Light" or perhaps "Light's Most Ascendant Ominpotence".

I see what you did there.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Also, how did it save lives? It kept them alive for a bit longer so they could die for him in battle at Winterfell, but that's a short-term life-saving at best. Advantageous for Stannis, sure, but I'm not sure it was a selfless act of mercy. If his interest was in saving lives rather than gaining power they could just turn around and go back to Castle Black.

Finally, how was the ceremony and the burning at the stake the quickest and most painless way to satisfy the Lord of Light? I'm wondering if I missed something here, not challenging your statement.

If they move forward and attack Winterfell*, they'll all die without the Lord of Light's magic. If they kill Shireen, they might still all die, but this way they'll have a chance.

Burning her at the stake was the quickest, most painless way to kill Shireen possible, we can assume, because Stannis loves Shireen very much and would not want to inflict any needless pain on her. Stannis isn't a monster. He's just a man very driven to fulfill his destiny of being king, having to make some very difficult decisions along the way.

I'm not defending Stannis from the charge of being an ###. He's always been an ###. But he's not a sadist like Joffrey or Ramsay. If he could have satisfied the Lord of Light in a less horrible way for Shireen, he would have.

___

*Yes, they could turn around and return to Castle Black. Might be the best decision, but Stannis rejected it for other reasons that have nothing to do with killing Shireen. He's marching forward no matter what.

Sometimes I can't tell when you're giving us some shtick, but in the event that you really believe the bolded to be true, that's contradicted by the earlier episodes in this season. Stannis clearly recognized that Jon killed Mance with an arrow as an act of mercy precisely because burning at the stake is NOT the quickest and most painless death that could have been offered.

dutch gives my answer to this in post #7212. They had to ceremoniously burn her to please the Lord of Light. Doing it at the stake was the best method given that constraint.

 

[bostonfred]

bad way to go

 

[CBusAlex]

The way Shireen was sacrificed was consistent with all the other people Stannis has burned for the Lord of Light. Mance and those dudes on Dragonstone from like season 2 all got the same public spectacle.

"Why couldn't he burn his own daughter to death somewhere more private" seems like kind of a weird quarrel to have anyway.

 

[Chadstroma]

The way Shireen was sacrificed was consistent with all the other people Stannis has burned for the Lord of Light. Mance and those dudes on Dragonstone from like season 2 all got the same public spectacle.

"Why couldn't he burn his own daughter to death somewhere more private" seems like kind of a weird quarrel to have anyway.

The only reason why you would do it in private would be for PR reasons. Stannis is not one to think much about PR.

 

[mr roboto]

Are we sure that Shireen is really dead?

Shes hanging out with Lori.

 

[GregR]

Are we sure that Shireen is really dead?

Shes hanging out with Lori.

That snow doesn't shovel itself.

 

[Good Posting Judge]

Ramsay Hunt Experience, more like Ramsay Bolton Experience. Right guys?

 

[jamny]

Also, how did it save lives? It kept them alive for a bit longer so they could die for him in battle at Winterfell, but that's a short-term life-saving at best. Advantageous for Stannis, sure, but I'm not sure it was a selfless act of mercy. If his interest was in saving lives rather than gaining power they could just turn around and go back to Castle Black.

Finally, how was the ceremony and the burning at the stake the quickest and most painless way to satisfy the Lord of Light? I'm wondering if I missed something here, not challenging your statement.

If they move forward and attack Winterfell*, they'll all die without the Lord of Light's magic. If they kill Shireen, they might still all die, but this way they'll have a chance.

Burning her at the stake was the quickest, most painless way to kill Shireen possible, we can assume, because Stannis loves Shireen very much and would not want to inflict any needless pain on her. Stannis isn't a monster. He's just a man very driven to fulfill his destiny of being king, having to make some very difficult decisions along the way.

I'm not defending Stannis from the charge of being an ###. He's always been an ###. But he's not a sadist like Joffrey or Ramsay. If he could have satisfied the Lord of Light in a less horrible way for Shireen, he would have.

___

*Yes, they could turn around and return to Castle Black. Might be the best decision, but Stannis rejected it for other reasons that have nothing to do with killing Shireen. He's marching forward no matter what.

Sometimes I can't tell when you're giving us some shtick, but in the event that you really believe the bolded to be true, that's contradicted by the earlier episodes in this season. Stannis clearly recognized that Jon killed Mance with an arrow as an act of mercy precisely because burning at the stake is NOT the quickest and most painless death that could have been offered.

It seems to me that Stannis has been portrayed as a man with two driving impulses. 1. A rough sense of justice, and 2. an ambition to fulfill what he believes is his destiny. I think it's hard to see last night's episode as anything other than Stannis effectively ignoring the first impulse in order to act on the second. It's a decision that I doubt the creators will let him come back from.

I don't really remember whether the show has emphasized it or not (I seem to remember the Rat King story), but without spoiling anything, Stannis committed what the books consider to be the one unforgivable moral sin. Killing kin.

Yeah but Mance wasn't killed as a sacrifice to the Lord of Light. Obviously Stannis knew an arrow to the heart is a quicker, more merciful death but it would have defeated the purpose of sacrificing his daughter to do that.

 

[Chadstroma]

Was last nights episode shorter than usual? Seemed to be.

 

[flapgreen]

The way Shireen was sacrificed was consistent with all the other people Stannis has burned for the Lord of Light. Mance and those dudes on Dragonstone from like season 2 all got the same public spectacle.

"Why couldn't he burn his own daughter to death somewhere more private" seems like kind of a weird quarrel to have anyway.

The only reason why you would do it in private would be for PR reasons. Stannis is not one to think much about PR.

Stannis isn't one to think much at all, especially for himself. He's hopeless.

 

[PatsWillWin]

I thought it was clear that Davos knew the girl was going to die.

Disagree. Davos can't shut his mouth about anything. He went to bat for Renly, someone he didn't even know. He was very close with Shireen. There's no way he knows that Stannis is considering burning her alive and doesn't say anything about it.

 

[flapgreen]

Barristan should have never been killed off. Him dying accomplished nothing. He's the perfect character to guard the Queen and lead her army. Now they all look foolish.

 

[PatsWillWin]

As great as this show is, they really need to hire some new combat consultants. Or have the guy who choreographs the fights at/near the Wall do everything else. I'm not hyper-critical about things like that, but a lot of the fights are just really sloppy.

 

[PatsWillWin]

Barristan should have never been killed off. Him dying accomplished nothing. He's the perfect character to guard the Queen and lead her army. Now they all look foolish.

 

[flapgreen]

I thought it was clear that Davos knew the girl was going to die.

Disagree. Davos can't shut his mouth about anything. He went to bat for Renly, someone he didn't even know. He was very close with Shireen. There's no way he knows that Stannis is considering burning her alive and doesn't say anything about it.

Right. No way he knew. He would've flipped.

 

[PatsWillWin]

Oh and to circle back a bit, please move Jorah Mormont outside of your top 10-15 list for best fighters in the show. It's not really his fault sometimes (again, the fighting in this show is often bad), but he looked like an old man in that pit. He ducked under a sword once, squatted down, and I thought he was going to throw his back out. Some were discussing him as a top 10 fighter in the Seven Kingdoms and he pretty much was getting owned by a few random pit fighters (given, they were not of the Seven Kingdoms, but you know what I mean).

Although that was a helluva spear throw after.

 

[Mile High]

Barristan should have never been killed off. Him dying accomplished nothing. He's the perfect character to guard the Queen and lead her army. Now they all look foolish.

Looks like he was killed off to make room for Tyrion. Agree she has no one to lead her army.