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Game of Thrones, tv only, books don't exist, no backstory...NERDS already ruining a series that hasn't started (1 Viewer)

I think many are having timeline issues and understanding what's going on. The show is not in a linear format. Meaning, two scenes depicting two different groups could be happening at the same time. Even three or four scenes could be happening at the same time even though they might be spread out between two or even three shows. Just because it took Arya's arc to take awhile in showtime to finish, what amount of time was that in story time? In the same breath, how much time has gone by from start to now? Time = days/years. 

I know, watching a tv show is hard. 

 
stbugs said:
Ugh, no matter what opinions people have they are wrong. It happened, we all knew the waif was going to get killed by Arya. Why are you assuming that the blindness training was only done for that specific reason? Jaqen could easily use that for a variety of things that trainees do. It was meant to teach Arya how to fend for herself without sight, so I would think that most trainees may go through it for any mistake, like Peter LaFleur.

Anyway, doesn't matter. I didn't like the car chase just like I didn't like the Rocky sparring sessions with the waif. Loved Arya with The Hound and Jaqen and even the initial understanding of the faceless men, but it amazes me the way people take this show so personally. Posts from the same "do you watch the show" crowd about how Arya setting the waif up. Really? Know exactly where and when she would get stabbed, which should have been fatal*, being able to swim over, get to the theater just in time, know exactly where the actress would take her, know exactly when the waif would show up again and know that the waif would take her sweet time walking after her to her trap. Sorry, I know what was going to happen, but that's a ridiculous set of assumptions starting with what was an easy kill for the waif, unless the waif was just setting herself up. Damn, makes sense now.

* Sorry, I shouldn't assume the waif was taught to kill people. She probably only got the fighting classes and none of the other training Arya got.
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I don't know if you're responding just to me, or just to the general interactions in the thread. But since you quoted me, I'll respond as if it's just me.

first off, switch to decaf. You seem awfully worked up over a tv show. I asked why you thought the waif got training in being blind because it didn't seem like some contrived part of Arya's training that was set up. It seemed like it happened because she screwed up. :shrug:  I don't know who Peter Lafleur is. 

It seems like there are definitely two camps of people when it comes to the Arya story arc: love it or hate it. I loved it, but that's my kind of story: some novice initiate enters into a clandestine, esoteric society and undergoes training. We watch as they get stripped of their ego and completely deconstructed as a human being, then they get rebuilt as a stone cold killing machine. I seriously would watch 4 hours of Uma Thruman training with Pai Mei from the Kill Bill Tarantino movies.

I get it if you didn't like it, and I can even understand reasons why you didn't. It's just personal taste. I dug it. We disagree. No hard feelings and slap it high?

these threads always kill me. Some people take shows like this and True Detective so seriously, and then some people are like my MIL, who will ask you plot questions when you come in the room about a movie she's been watching for an hour already. I still crack up when GPJ asks about Candy Crush in answer to an inane question. 

 
I've been too lazy to check but is this the first season where the only actors being shown in the opening credits are only those who are appearing in the episode? I don't remember that being the case in prior seasons but maybe I missed it.  

 
packersfan said:
I've been too lazy to check but is this the first season where the only actors being shown in the opening credits are only those who are appearing in the episode? I don't remember that being the case in prior seasons but maybe I missed it.  
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reasonably sure this is normally the case - though there may have been an exception or two.

 
I've got an issue with the way Arya killed the waif.
If it was a set up to lure the waif back to her room, she would have needed to set it all up before getting stabbed and rescued by Lady Crane. It's also possible that she set it up after getting stabbed and before hiding Lady Crane's dressing room.
But if she really meant to lure the waif back to the room where her sword was hidden, how did the candle stay lit for so long? Does she light it as soon as she got back to the room? 

 
ProstheticRGK said:
It seems like there are definitely two camps of people when it comes to the Arya story arc: love it or hate it. I loved it, but that's my kind of story: some novice initiate enters into a clandestine, esoteric society and undergoes training. We watch as they get stripped of their ego and completely deconstructed as a human being, then they get rebuilt as a stone cold killing machine.
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I like it as well. But Arya isn't really a stone cold killing machine because she chose to save Lady Crane instead of completing her assignment. If she had done as she was told, Jaquen might have had a lot more tricks to teach Arya.

 
Sinn Fein said:
reasonably sure this is normally the case - though there may have been an exception or two.
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I'll have to go back and check. For some reason it feels like the opening credits are shorter this season and I've been attributing that to the only actors listed in the credits being the ones in the episode and not the entire cast. But you definitely could be right. 

 
Not just two camps with Arya's Assassin storyline. I was on board initially but got bored with it as it went on. I didn't end up hating it. I just thought it petered out and am glad it's over. She's been at her best when she's had a strong character to play off of like Tywin and the Hound. I don't think Jaqen or the Waif compared to either of those characters and as a result this latest storyline paled in comparison. 

 
EYLive said:
I like it as well. But Arya isn't really a stone cold killing machine because she chose to save Lady Crane instead of completing her assignment. If she had done as she was told, Jaquen might have had a lot more tricks to teach Arya.
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That was an important character development point. She was at another crossroads, she could choose to be no-one, an assassin for hire, but she stayed true to who she's always been, someone with a (at times misguided/simplistic?) sense of justice who will kill for a cause and/or vengeance. She's not as physically skilled as the waif, she was never going to go out and win a bunch of hand to hand combats based on strength. In the end she proved more clever, a better read of character/tendencies/motivations/environment, which is more important in most cases for the kind of work she'll be doing. Those are the lessons she's learned and skills she's developed along the way from Sorel and mostly Jaquen. She didn't beat the waif by playing the waif's game, she beat the waif on Arya's terms.

 
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EYLive said:
I've got an issue with the way Arya killed the waif.
If it was a set up to lure the waif back to her room, she would have needed to set it all up before getting stabbed and rescued by Lady Crane. It's also possible that she set it up after getting stabbed and before hiding Lady Crane's dressing room.
But if she really meant to lure the waif back to the room where her sword was hidden, how did the candle stay lit for so long? Does she light it as soon as she got back to the room? 
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She was shown staying in that room previously, and had the candle lit then. So I'd say it's safe to assume she had a way to light it there. They showed her in that room again in the "last time on GoT". Didn't remember it until you asked here though.

With her leaving the bloody marks behind, I think it's clear it was an intentional plan at least by the latter part of the chase. Though whether she came up with it on the fly after the actresses's death, or sometime earlier like after saving the actress, we don't know I don't think.

 
Gr00vus said:
That was an important character development point. She was at another crossroads, she could choose to be no-one, an assassin for hire, but she stayed true to who she's always been, someone with a (at times misguided/simplistic?) sense of justice who will kill for a cause and/or vengeance. She's not as physically skilled as the waif, she was never going to go out and win a bunch of hand to hand combats based on strength. In the end she proved more clever, a better read of character/tendencies/motivations/environment, which is more important in most cases for the kind of work she'll be doing. Those are the lessons she's learned and skills she's developed along the way from Sorel and mostly Jaquen. She didn't beat the waif by playing the waif's game, she beat the waif on Arya's terms.
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This.

 
Spike said:
In regard to the Mountain, what is he - deal or alive?  And, either way, in the "ripped off the face" scene, he got hit in the chest with some sort of pointed maul and got a few inches of it in the chest.  No damage?

Loved Melisandre drunk.
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He is FrankenMountain. Don't really know what he is by Qyburn put him back together from a bunch of parts like Frankenstein. 

 
packersfan said:
Doesn't it seem inevitable that everyone, including the White Walkers, will eventually end up in King's Landing? Seems like that's where the big battle would seem most fitting to be fought and whoever's left standing gets the Iron Throne.   
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If the White Walkers make it all the way to King's Landing, there won't be very many people left to rule over from the Iron Throne even if they win. Seems like the battle happens in the North with reinforcements from the whole of Westeros, right? 

 
I think the Mountain was so big and his armor was so accordingly thick, that the spikes didn't even make it through. Or if they made it through, they didn't hurt him much.

 
Do we know if Hodor actually died? They never showed it. Possible he's still standing there holding the door? I mean there was another exit for the walkers and Hodor wasn't the target. 

 
ProstheticRGK said:
I don't know if you're responding just to me, or just to the general interactions in the thread. But since you quoted me, I'll respond as if it's just me.

first off, switch to decaf. You seem awfully worked up over a tv show. I asked why you thought the waif got training in being blind because it didn't seem like some contrived part of Arya's training that was set up. It seemed like it happened because she screwed up. :shrug:  I don't know who Peter Lafleur is. 

It seems like there are definitely two camps of people when it comes to the Arya story arc: love it or hate it. I loved it, but that's my kind of story: some novice initiate enters into a clandestine, esoteric society and undergoes training. We watch as they get stripped of their ego and completely deconstructed as a human being, then they get rebuilt as a stone cold killing machine. I seriously would watch 4 hours of Uma Thruman training with Pai Mei from the Kill Bill Tarantino movies.

I get it if you didn't like it, and I can even understand reasons why you didn't. It's just personal taste. I dug it. We disagree. No hard feelings and slap it high?

these threads always kill me. Some people take shows like this and True Detective so seriously, and then some people are like my MIL, who will ask you plot questions when you come in the room about a movie she's been watching for an hour already. I still crack up when GPJ asks about Candy Crush in answer to an inane question. 
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No worries at all. I enjoy the show and always will. Honestly, I think the other folks take it way too seriously. I loved Arya's story line until recently where it dragged and got a bit silly. Her stuff with The Hound was fantastic. That scene last night was ridiculous IMHO, no chance Arya survives what we saw the last two weeks. It's just a bit annoying when people freak out of you dislike something as if you're so stupid that you can't understand what's going on and there reponses are pretentious. Look at some of the posts, swearing all over the place.

Uma Thurman's training made her a bad ###. I don't recall Arya doing anything like that to be considered a bad ###. If she had started to hold her own against the waif, I don't think I would have cared or if they made the trap better. A trap can't be set by something that should have killed her and put her in such a vulnerable position (falling 20 feet with a stomach wound) where I don't think she would have survived. Uma Thurman getting out of being buried alive made 100% sense based on the training we saw.

Anyway, I am glad you enjoyed it. To each their own. It's ok to disagree. It's just a show!

 
packersfan said:
Not just two camps with Arya's Assassin storyline. I was on board initially but got bored with it as it went on. I didn't end up hating it. I just thought it petered out and am glad it's over. She's been at her best when she's had a strong character to play off of like Tywin and the Hound. I don't think Jaqen or the Waif compared to either of those characters and as a result this latest storyline paled in comparison. 
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My thought as well. I loved the Arya story line until the waif turned into the Terminator and they had to make the crazy trap. We knew where it would end and I liked the cutting off the face, I'm Arya, but the montages trying to build the waif up so much made it so much less believable that Arya could trick her and could beat her when healthy let alone really hurt/should have died.

Let Arya get in some shots and maybe just have her escape without a fatal wound and hide out with the actress. Maybe then I would have enjoyed a trap that maybe involved using the actors, etc.

Also, your point about not just two camps makes me realize that some folks don't read well. We both said we liked Arya and 90% of her story, but it seems like that means we are in the bashing Arya, she couldn't kill a fly camp.

 
stbugs said:
My thought as well. I loved the Arya story line until the waif turned into the Terminator and they had to make the crazy trap. We knew where it would end and I liked the cutting off the face, I'm Arya, but the montages trying to build the waif up so much made it so much less believable that Arya could trick her and could beat her when healthy let alone really hurt/should have died.

Let Arya get in some shots and maybe just have her escape without a fatal wound and hide out with the actress. Maybe then I would have enjoyed a trap that maybe involved using the actors, etc.

Also, your point about not just two camps makes me realize that some folks don't read well. We both said we liked Arya and 90% of her story, but it seems like that means we are in the bashing Arya, she couldn't kill a fly camp.
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Oh, no you don't, buddy. I clearly stated above that there are only 2 camps: love or hate. No qualifiers, no kinda sorta. unequivocally, without question, only two camps. There's no room in here for your loosely-goosey moral ambiguity. That sort of stuff might play in your ivory tower with your Harvard buddies, drinking tea and eating scones. But not in here, and not on my watch. I don't think you even like the show at all

 
GregR said:
With her leaving the bloody marks behind, I think it's clear it was an intentional plan at least by the latter part of the chase. Though whether she came up with it on the fly after the actresses's death, or sometime earlier like after saving the actress, we don't know I don't think.
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I think it's extremely unlikely that it was her plan all along.  She wouldn't have intentionally put the actress that she liked to almost certain death by going there if she wanted to be found and spring a trap.

There were way too many other things that had to go right too, light not spraining an ankle on any of those huge falls, the Waif spending half the chase casually walking after her, etc.

I think she panicked when the Waif came and made a run for her sword.  Maybe when she got close she decided to lead her in there with the blood, but I'm not necessarily convinced even that was surely intentional.  Maybe, but even at that point she had to count on the Waif conveniently closing the door behind her to leave the candle as the only source of light.

 
FreeBaGeL said:
I think it's extremely unlikely that it was her plan all along.  She wouldn't have intentionally put the actress that she liked to almost certain death by going there if she wanted to be found and spring a trap.

There were way too many other things that had to go right too, light not spraining an ankle on any of those huge falls, the Waif spending half the chase casually walking after her, etc.

I think she panicked when the Waif came and made a run for her sword.  Maybe when she got close she decided to lead her in there with the blood, but I'm not necessarily convinced even that was surely intentional.  Maybe, but even at that point she had to count on the Waif conveniently closing the door behind her to leave the candle as the only source of light.
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Here's my giving Arya way too much credit hypothesis (and I choose to believe this because I like the character):

I think her plan came together after the initial stabbing. She knew not only that the faceless god still required her death (or a substitute given by her) but also they were still on the books to kill the actress (just because Arya didn't do it didn't mean they weren't going to). So she went to the actress knowing another faceless man would show up to finish the job on the actress. It appears there really were only 2 others in the whole temple - the waif and Jaquen. And Jaquen doesn't seem to do local work, so it'd be the waif. Arya would get her opportunity to get the faceless men off her back by delivering a death. Either she saves the actress in the process, or the actress dies as she would without Arya anyway. Knowing the waif is a cruel torturer she leads her to Arya's hideout, knowing the waif will probably close that door to heighten the fear, also playing more injured than she really was to give the waif a false sense of additional superiority. Note that in her final scene with Jaquen she doesn't seem injured at all. How she healed so fast I have no idea - that's a definite problem with how this was portrayed. But Arya engineers an upper hand for herself and works the waif over. The faceless god has his death, another face goes in the archive and Arya's paid her debt to the faceless god/men - she's now free and clear to go home.

If you really wanted to get crazy with this, you could think she planned the whole thing from start to finish. Being ostentatious with how she got the money and hired the ship. Making herself overly visible in public attempting to lure the waif in, knowing the waif would try for a long suffering death rather than a quick throat slash or backstab, and trying to minimize the damage. This puts the waif in a mindset that finishing Arya will be easy and thus underestimates Arya's threat when they inevitably meet again. I don't think even I can buy this one.

I don't begrudge anyone who doesn't like any of that. They really didn't do a great job with the Bravos part of Arya's storyline. Which is a shame, because in those things we're not supposed to talk about in here, that storyline was one of my favorite parts of the most recent two of those things we're not supposed to talk about in here.

 
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Possible days/weeks passed which is why Ayra was not as wounded

 
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Waif's face is still dripping blood and the blood at the base of the pillar i assumed to be Arya's. I didnt get the impression much time had passed.

 
Funkley said:
Waif's face is still dripping blood and the blood at the base of the pillar i assumed to be Arya's. I didnt get the impression much time had passed.
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Was talking between the time Arya first got stabbed and how much time she rested before the next time they fought.

From Game of Thrones Wiki

Arya was badly stabbed last episode, and her encounter with Lady Crane at the beginning of this episode happens immediately after that: it seems surprising that Arya is able to run around throughout the city and fight afterwards, albeit by the end of the chase Arya had moved around too much and opened up the stiches on her wounds. That being said, it is somewhat implied that many days passed by off-screen while Arya was convalescing at Lady Crane's lodgings, knocked out with Milk of the Poppy. After the preceding episode, writer Bryan Cogman did stress that sometimes days or weeks pass by off-screen between scenes of the TV show. "

 
Gr00vus said:
Here's my giving Arya way too much credit hypothesis (and I choose to believe this because I like the character):

I think her plan came together after the initial stabbing. She knew not only that the faceless god still required her death (or a substitute given by her) but also they were still on the books to kill the actress (just because Arya didn't do it didn't mean they weren't going to). So she went to the actress knowing another faceless man would show up to finish the job on the actress. It appears there really were only 2 others in the whole temple - the waif and Jaquen. And Jaquen doesn't seem to do local work, so it'd be the waif. Arya would get her opportunity to get the faceless men off her back by delivering a death. Either she saves the actress in the process, or the actress dies as she would without Arya anyway. Knowing the waif is a cruel torturer she leads her to Arya's hideout, knowing the waif will probably close that door to heighten the fear, also playing more injured than she really was to give the waif a false sense of additional superiority. Note that in her final scene with Jaquen she doesn't seem injured at all. How she healed so fast I have no idea - that's a definite problem with how this was portrayed. But Arya engineers an upper hand for herself and works the waif over. The faceless god has his death, another face goes in the archive and Arya's paid her debt to the faceless god/men - she's now free and clear to go home.

If you really wanted to get crazy with this, you could think she planned the whole thing from start to finish. Being ostentatious with how she got the money and hired the ship. Making herself overly visible in public attempting to lure the waif in, knowing the waif would try for a long suffering death rather than a quick throat slash or backstab, and trying to minimize the damage. This puts the waif in a mindset that finishing Arya will be easy and thus underestimates Arya's threat when they inevitably meet again. I don't think even I can buy this one.

I don't begrudge anyone who doesn't like any of that. They really didn't do a great job with the Bravos part of Arya's storyline. Which is a shame, because in those things we're not supposed to talk about in here, that storyline was one of my favorite parts of the most recent two of those things we're not supposed to talk about in here.
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Very interesting idea. I am not sure I buy all of it, but I could see it. Doesn't mean I like the huge amount of assumptions she would have to make, but I noticed she appeared to be in great shape with Jaqen. That definitely lends some credence to the story line that she was luring her by appearing wounded. Still a big assumption that the waif would just leisurely stroll along behind her.

 
Funkley said:
Waif's face is still dripping blood and the blood at the base of the pillar i assumed to be Arya's. I didnt get the impression much time had passed.
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Most definitely wasn't much time.

Dez said:
Was talking between the time Arya first got stabbed and how much time she rested before the next time they fought.

From Game of Thrones Wiki

Arya was badly stabbed last episode, and her encounter with Lady Crane at the beginning of this episode happens immediately after that: it seems surprising that Arya is able to run around throughout the city and fight afterwards, albeit by the end of the chase Arya had moved around too much and opened up the stiches on her wounds. That being said, it is somewhat implied that many days passed by off-screen while Arya was convalescing at Lady Crane's lodgings, knocked out with Milk of the Poppy. After the preceding episode, writer Bryan Cogman did stress that sometimes days or weeks pass by off-screen between scenes of the TV show. "
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Definitely possible that she had time to heal up, but that sure does make the slow pursuit by the waif that much harder to believe, well except when it looked cool for her to run and jump from up above.

 
Funkley said:
Waif's face is still dripping blood and the blood at the base of the pillar i assumed to be Arya's. I didnt get the impression much time had passed.
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Lady Crane died getting a second jar of the Milk of the Poppy stuff. When she first poured the drink there was still a lot left. Maybe it was a few days and she diminished the entire first bottle?

 
I thought there was a lot of good in this episode:  Jamie going bad ### on Edmure, twist of there being no trial by combat, Tyrion and Varys, Mountain Smash, and the Hound.  Mix that with a bit of bad (and unfortunately for me, the stuff I don't dig usually ends up at the end and leaves a sour taste): the whole bit with Arya, I don't dig Tyrion riffing with the non talking characters in Mereen, and of course I am done with Dany so her showing up out of the blue for me was the worst of the episode.  Just thought it would make for better TV if Tyrion had to stew in his bad decisions for a bit, or if a dragon had to show up, maybe one that he freed came up from the dungeon with the chaos going on. 

Still overall a decent episode for the season, and next week looks to be pretty awesome. 

 
Gr00vus said:
I think that's the only explanation that makes it plausible. Just hard to read how much time has passed in any given storyline for this show.
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I am going with the presumption that she will be getting on that boat that she booked which was leaving in a day or two, right? Obviously this hasn't happened yet, but I don't see any indication that three weeks have passed and I would bet my lunch money that in Episode 10 she will be getting on the boat with that captain she talked to. 

 
TheMagus said:
I am going with the presumption that she will be getting on that boat that she booked which was leaving in a day or two, right? Obviously this hasn't happened yet, but I don't see any indication that three weeks have passed and I would bet my lunch money that in Episode 10 she will be getting on the boat with that captain she talked to. 
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Didn't she pay the extra bag of $ so that they left that same day?

 
The Dude said:
What was the rumor the crazy scientist was referring to with Cersei?  Was that a known discussion?
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There was a discussion in the mountain healing room where he sent out kids to find out about something. I don't recall if they specifically talked about exactly what info they were trying to get at.

 
The Dude said:
What was the rumor the crazy scientist was referring to with Cersei?  Was that a known discussion?
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I'm guessing the wildfire cache's they showed in Bran's dream sequence with the Mad King.  Jaimie talks about how the Mad King was going to blow up entire Kings Landing killing everyone with caches of wildfire he had his Pyromancers stash around the city, which is why Jaimie killed him becoming the King Slayer.  I'm betting Qyburn found them and Cersei is going to try to use those to burn down the city as a last resort, or at least threaten it.  Why else would they show so much wildfire in Bran's dream sequence?  And that's what the "more, much more" is reference too.  It isn't just a small stash, there is a #### ton of it around the city.

 
Spin said:
I'm guessing the wildfire cache's they showed in Bran's dream sequence with the Mad King.  Jaimie talks about how the Mad King was going to blow up entire Kings Landing killing everyone with caches of wildfire he had his Pyromancers stash around the city, which is why Jaimie killed him becoming the King Slayer.  I'm betting Qyburn found them and Cersei is going to try to use those to burn down the city as a last resort, or at least threaten it.  Why else would they show so much wildfire in Bran's dream sequence?  And that's what the "more, much more" is reference too.  It isn't just a small stash, there is a #### ton of it around the city.
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And we had the #1 character from Deadwood this season....

coincidence?

 
Spin said:
I'm guessing the wildfire cache's they showed in Bran's dream sequence with the Mad King.  Jaimie talks about how the Mad King was going to blow up entire Kings Landing killing everyone with caches of wildfire he had his Pyromancers stash around the city, which is why Jaimie killed him becoming the King Slayer.  I'm betting Qyburn found them and Cersei is going to try to use those to burn down the city as a last resort, or at least threaten it.  Why else would they show so much wildfire in Bran's dream sequence?  And that's what the "more, much more" is reference too.  It isn't just a small stash, there is a #### ton of it around the city.
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While the wildfire cache is true, I don't think that has anything to do with what they were talking about. They sent the little birds around town to find out something about someone. Also, I don't think it is "around the city" from what we saw in the dream and Tyrion. It was a gigantic cache in one spot and the dream sequence showed that cache blowing up, not multiple spots. It looked identical to when Tyrion saw all of it before he used some of it to defeat Stannis' ships.

ETA: We may be saying the same thing for "around the city." I meant that I don't think there are multiple caches all over the place, but I do think that huge cache is enough to take out the entire city first with a huge explosion (not sure where it is under) and then the likely gigantic fire.

 
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Spin said:
I'm guessing the wildfire cache's they showed in Bran's dream sequence with the Mad King.  Jaimie talks about how the Mad King was going to blow up entire Kings Landing killing everyone with caches of wildfire he had his Pyromancers stash around the city, which is why Jaimie killed him becoming the King Slayer.  I'm betting Qyburn found them and Cersei is going to try to use those to burn down the city as a last resort, or at least threaten it.  Why else would they show so much wildfire in Bran's dream sequence?  And that's what the "more, much more" is reference too.  It isn't just a small stash, there is a #### ton of it around the city.
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But isn't this common knowledge after the Battle of the Blackwater?  

 
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