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Game of Thrones, tv only, books don't exist, no backstory...NERDS already ruining a series that hasn't started (7 Viewers)

They did a terrible way of ending it for cersei.  For a show that has given us great visual deaths of villains I wasn't even sure if she died at the end.  maybe they will start off the next episode with her crawling out of rubble and Arya stabbing her.  Then finally we can get some closure.  Could they not of at least had a falling Stone crush her?  Way to drop the ball here hbo.

 
  • I enjoyed the episode but I'm also ready for the series to be done. I think Benioff & Weiss had an ending and worked backwards from there in the most expedient way they could. Could the series have benefitted from 10 episodes instead of 6? Probably but ultimately we would have ended up in the same spot we did last night so other than developing Dany's madness a little better I don't know what else you gain from it.
Story, plot line, and character development are what made this show great, though. If I wanted to see carnage and action I'd watch a Michael Bay movie. 

 
Maybe but where I struggle with this is why bother heading North at all? I know the Dany we saw last night is much changed from the Dany who first set foot on Westeros but if she was so consumed with the throne then heading North first makes no sense. She had two full armies, 3 healthy dragons and Cersei had nothing, no Golden Company, no Iron Fleet, no functioning anti-dragon Scorpions that shoot 400 bolts a minute (or not depending on what the show needs). Even her love for Jon-boy shouldn't have trumped her desire for the throne.
Yep she shoulda just taken Drogon and burned the red keep to start with. Then she could have united all of Westeros and fought the NK with everybody. 

 
I e never considered her very confident or measured. He first instinct is always to fly off the handle. 

I dont think a lot of people actually pay attention when they watch. 
Strongly disagree. Many people who have paid attention, included the Ringer critics and other, criticized the choice to have her fly off the handle like she did. Burn the red keep? Sure. But not murder thousands of innocents. 

 
Yeah, I don't get the pure evil bit. Pure evil doesn't stop rape. Pure evil doesn't go North and fight the Night King. Pure evil doesn't free slaves and Unsullied and give them the choice to follow her. Pure evil doesn't spare the man who murdered her father. It isn't like the other Lords of Westeros weren't responsible for killing thousands of innocents. I mean, we watched people get tortured in Harrenhal. We watched Cersei blow up a sept. We cheered Arya wiping out House Frey - and hated House Frey for nearly wiping out the Starks. The entire reason The Brotherhood was formed was to protect the thousands of smallfolk that get killed for food/gold etc. etc. to fund wars. We haven't seen anything like the carnage Dany inflicted - but she also didn't go around sacking other cities and burning them to the ground either. IMO, the show writers did a piss poor job showing Dany's descent into madness.
Here is a piece that expounds on the point you are making.  I agree with a lot (but not all) of it:

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/critics-notebook-end-game-thrones-finds-a-way-make-woman-problem-worse-1210104

 
Visually and audially it was a magnificent episode. The Jamie/Euron thing was dumb, for many reasons. Apart from that everything else pretty much worked. The Jamie/Cersei ending was perfect.

The final Arya/Sandor moment is one of my favorite scenes of the series. The Jamie/Tyrion one was up there as well.

I think the problem some have with the crazy Danaerys turn at the end here isn't that she did go mad, but that burning up innocents was never her thing. They didn't earn that, they needed more set up for some of us to really buy into it. It came off much more as a shoehorned plot point to get to wherever the other characters need to get to in terms of dealing with her in the final episode, putting the neon "bad person" sign on her in case you missed it.

The writers have gone the obvious route, where previously there was a lot more subtlety and uncertainty - that lent a bit more realism to things I think.

 
In the books I think it was far more clear she was going to have a break because she was so flighty and reckless. Up to very recently, the show has portrayed her much more stronger and grounded, especially in regards to the common people. There were just more fitting ways for her to break than to have it all and lose it because of some bells ringing, which should've signaled her win. 

There were just going to be mistakes when the people running the show decided they wanted to be done with it and finish it out in one season of 6 episodes. It's really the most fitting end for the series when considering Martin's lack of enthusiasm in finishing the books.
several times in the show she either did make really bad decisions or was talked out of them.   At the end of last weeks episode when miss sandy's head got cut off, they focused on her face for like 7 seconds.  It was obvious from that she wasn't taking this well.    Then to begin this episode, we're told she won't eat or talk to anyone.    I'd say that was pretty clearly her having a breakdown.   Not sure why people think this was a big deal

 
Maybe but where I struggle with this is why bother heading North at all? I know the Dany we saw last night is much changed from the Dany who first set foot on Westeros but if she was so consumed with the throne then heading North first makes no sense. She had two full armies, 3 healthy dragons and Cersei had nothing, no Golden Company, no Iron Fleet, no functioning anti-dragon Scorpions that shoot 400 bolts a minute (or not depending on what the show needs). Even her love for Jon-boy shouldn't have trumped her desire for the throne.
The throne didn’t mean much if she was only going to hold it for a short amount of time before the zombies showed up. And notwithstanding the fact that it was in her long term interests to stop the WWs in the North, she still worked hard and leveraged that into the North bending the knee.  Nothing about her behavior there was inconsistent with her general fixation on being queen. 

 
several times in the show she either did make really bad decisions or was talked out of them.   At the end of last weeks episode when miss sandy's head got cut off, they focused on her face for like 7 seconds.  It was obvious from that she wasn't taking this well.    Then to begin this episode, we're told she won't eat or talk to anyone.    I'd say that was pretty clearly her having a breakdown.   Not sure why people think this was a big deal
lots of people have breakdowns and want revenge against those who wronged them without making a deliberate and conscious decision to kill thousands of completely innocent people that just surrendered.

 
The throne didn’t mean much if she was only going to hold it for a short amount of time before the zombies showed up. And notwithstanding the fact that it was in her long term interests to stop the WWs in the North, she still worked hard and leveraged that into the North bending the knee.  Nothing about her behavior there was inconsistent with her general fixation on being queen. 
If she takes King's Landing first there is no need to go North to get a souvenir to bring back, Rhaegal doesn't die, and the Night King never comes South.

 
On Inside The Episode, they said that seeing the Red Keep set her off. That makes no sense, an old building that her ancestors built, that's going to be hers in 2-3 hours, something she's been working her whole life to get back, and seeing it makes her...torch it? And everything else? Nonsense.

 
I'm sure it is a lot of upset Dany fans behind those low marks.
Yeah, lots of family types I bet, daughters who dressed up as Dany for halloween etc.  Not too happy with their favorite character just torching thousands of innocents.  It was glorious.  

Nobody cars about people killing zombie white walkers, that's all over tv now days.  Most people are numb to grown men fighting other grown men.  But, torching a bunch of women and children for no reason shown with plenty of gore and horror.  That's just tv awesomeness that I imagine a lot of people don't relate to.

 
lots of people have breakdowns and want revenge against those who wronged them without making a deliberate and conscious decision to kill thousands of completely innocent people that just surrendered.
miss sandy said "dracaris"-  apparently our queen took that to heart.   I think it was premeditated the moment sandy's head and body fell to the ground.  

 
Yeah, I don't get the pure evil bit. Pure evil doesn't stop rape. Pure evil doesn't go North and fight the Night King. Pure evil doesn't free slaves and Unsullied and give them the choice to follow her. Pure evil doesn't spare the man who murdered her father. It isn't like the other Lords of Westeros weren't responsible for killing thousands of innocents. I mean, we watched people get tortured in Harrenhal. We watched Cersei blow up a sept. We cheered Arya wiping out House Frey - and hated House Frey for nearly wiping out the Starks. The entire reason The Brotherhood was formed was to protect the thousands of smallfolk that get killed for food/gold etc. etc. to fund wars. We haven't seen anything like the carnage Dany inflicted - but she also didn't go around sacking other cities and burning them to the ground either. IMO, the show writers did a piss poor job showing Dany's descent into madness.
Agreed but they didn't have time.  Way too much to cram into 1 season however the signs were there.

 
miss sandy said "dracaris"-  apparently our queen took that to heart.   I think it was premeditated the moment sandy's head and body fell to the ground.  
I think that was meant for Cersei.  Not every living soul in the city she was going to rule.

 
If she takes King's Landing first there is no need to go North to get a souvenir to bring back, Rhaegal doesn't die, and the Night King never comes South.
She couldn’t quickly take the city that quickly without doing more or less what happened in last night’s episode, and at that point she wasn’t ready to go there. Though the NK ultimately uses Rhaegal to get through the wall, the characters considered the threat to be imminent and we have to assume he would have found another way through. 

 
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lots of people have breakdowns and want revenge against those who wronged them without making a deliberate and conscious decision to kill thousands of completely innocent people that just surrendered.
She wasn't going to be loved so she was going to be feared...her words.  Yeah she took it to the extreme but other Targaryens have in the past. 

 
The throne didn’t mean much if she was only going to hold it for a short amount of time before the zombies showed up. And notwithstanding the fact that it was in her long term interests to stop the WWs in the North, she still worked hard and leveraged that into the North bending the knee.  Nothing about her behavior there was inconsistent with her general fixation on being queen. 
Except she wasn't queen and could have been. If she had a laser like focus on the throne the smart choice, the easy choice to make is to attack KL first. Cersei doesn't have near the strength she had after the Battle of Winterfell, it would have been a cake walk. Hell Dany took the city last night with a 1/4 of the troops and 1/3rd of the dragons.

She couldn’t quickly take the city that quickly without doing more or less what happened in last night’s episode, and at that point she wasn’t ready to go there. She barely got North in time and with enough troops as it was. 
I disagree, see above. Further, if she takes KL she can hunker down and meet the NK on her terms rather than rush North and throw together some half ### battle plan that gets most of your strength destroyed only to force march everyone back down to KL to fight a battle against an entrenched foe. It gets back to tactics which the show has demonstrated they don't really care much about.

Take the Golden Company last night. As much as we complained about what they did to the Dorthraki & the Unsullied up North, Cersei did the same to the Golden Company last night. What sense does it make to station those troops on the outside of the wall to take a full charge and what? Hope the dragon doesn't show up or the Scorpions take him out? Made no sense.

 
She wasn't going to be loved so she was going to be feared...her words.  Yeah she took it to the extreme but other Targaryens have in the past. 
There was going to be no one left in King's Landing to fear her.  I know, she had a history of mental illness in the family which is why she killed thousands of innocent people.

 
I think that was meant for Cersei.  Not every living soul in the city she was going to rule.
circumstances change.    

honestly the two queens both went mental.   Cersei was like Hitler in the Downfall video, not accepting reality of a deteriorating situation, and Danys was like here's some napalm brb.

 
On Inside The Episode, they said that seeing the Red Keep set her off. That makes no sense, an old building that her ancestors built, that's going to be hers in 2-3 hours, something she's been working her whole life to get back, and seeing it makes her...torch it? And everything else? Nonsense.
But she heard bells!!! Oh, the BELLS!!!

I get the build up, but she won. And then she torched the innocents. It really made no sense, but that's what we should have come to expect over these last 4 seasons.

 
There's something you need to know

Someone has betrayed me 

Jon snow

Varys

He knows the truth about jon

He does

Because you told him.  You learned from sansa, and she learned from jon, even though i begged him not to tell her.  As i said, he betrayed me. 

I'm glad sanda told me. I am your hand.  I need to be aware of any threats you are facing 

And varys?

Your master of whispers needs to be aware too.

You spoke to him first without coming to me. 

It was a mistake. 

Why do you think sansa told you? What do you think she had to gain? 

She trusts me

Yes she trusts you.  She trusts you to spread secrets that could destroy your own queen, and you did not let her down. 

If i have failed you my queen, forgive me.  Our intentions were good.  We wanted what you want, a better world.  Varys as much as anyone. It doesn't matter now. 

It doesn't matter now.  

...

Varys is arrested by grey worm and brought to danny, drogon, jon and tyrion. 

It was me.

I hope i deserve this.  Truly i do.  Goodbye old friend. 

Lord varys, i danaerys of horse targaryen, breaker of chains and mother of dragons, sentenced you to die. Dracarys.

...

This is all she brought with her when she crossed the narrow sea.  Her only possession. (Hands chain to grey worm who throws it in the fire. Jon arrives) 

It's all right Torgo Nudho.  Let me speak with him. 

(Grey worm leaves) 

What did i say would happen if you told your sister? 

I don't want it. And that's what i told him. 

She betrayed your trust. She killed varys as much as i did.  This is victory for her. Now she knows what happens when people hear the truth about you. Far more people in westeros love you than love me. I don't have love here.  I only have fear.

I love you. You will always be my queen. 

Is that all i am to you? Your queen? (They kiss, jon pulls back.  She looks hurt.)

All right then.  Let it be fear.

....

Tyrion - The people who live there they're not your enemies.  They're innocents, like the ones you liberated in mereen.

In mereen the slaves turned on their masters and liberated the city themselves the moment i arrived. 

They're afraid. Anyone who resists us he will see his family butchered.  You can't expect them to be heroes.  They're hostages.

They are.  In a tyrants grip. Whose fault is that?  Mine. 

What does it matter whose fault it is?  Thousands of children will die if the city burns. 

Your sister knows how to use her enemies weaknesses against them. That's what she thinks our mercy is. Weakness. 

I beg you my queen...

But she's wrong. Mercy is our strength.  Our mercy towards future generations who will never again be held hostage by a tyrant.  Ready the unsullied.  Tonight you sail for kings landing to join the northern armies. 

Cersei's followers will abandon her if they know the war is lost. Give them that chance.  If the city surrenders they will ring the bells and raise the gates.  Please.  If you hear them ringing the bells call off the attack. 

(Danaerys does not respond, turns to grey worm) Wait for me outside the city.  You'll know when it's time. 

(Tyrion begins to leave) 

Your brother was stopped trying to get past our lines. It seems he hasn't abandoned your sister after all.  Next time you fail me will be the last time you fail me. 

....................

She has already made up her mind at this point.  She's made it really clear.  She planned to destroy the whole city including the innocents and the children.  

The roof was her deciding whether to go through with it once she heard the bells.  Bur she felt this was necessary to secure her victory and rule by fear.  And she believed that was better for westeros than a tyrant like Cersei because she believed she was destined to be queen.  

This was her nature, laid bare before the fight began.  We just didn't want it to be true. 

 
Shouldn't Cersei have weighed like 230 lbs? It seems like she just chugs wine all day, doesn't move around that much, probably has pretty good food at her disposal, unlike the rest of King's Landing.

Everyone else is walking around the whole time, I get why they're in good shape.

 
Yeah, lots of family types I bet, daughters who dressed up as Dany for halloween etc.  Not too happy with their favorite character just torching thousands of innocents.  It was glorious.  

Nobody cars about people killing zombie white walkers, that's all over tv now days.  Most people are numb to grown men fighting other grown men.  But, torching a bunch of women and children for no reason shown with plenty of gore and horror.  That's just tv awesomeness that I imagine a lot of people don't relate to.
Agreed. It would be like Elsa in a Frozen sequel turning into a mass murderer.

 
She has already made up her mind at this point.  She's made it really clear.  She planned to destroy the whole city including the innocents and the children.  

The roof was her deciding whether to go through with it once she heard the bells.  Bur she felt this was necessary to secure her victory and rule by fear.  And she believed that was better for westeros than a tyrant like Cersei because she believed she was destined to be queen.  

This was her nature, laid bare before the fight began.  We just didn't want it to be true. 
This is one episode vs. the 70ish that come before it. I couldn't care less what is "true" or isn't. I just want a story that cohesively makes sense. The writers have nailed a lot of character/character interactions. However, without the source material they lost their grip on the overall plot and story progression quite a ways back. 

 
I disagree, see above. Further, if she takes KL she can hunker down and meet the NK on her terms rather than rush North and throw together some half ### battle plan that gets most of your strength destroyed only to force march everyone back down to KL to fight a battle against an entrenched foe. It gets back to tactics which the show has demonstrated they don't really care much about.
The WWs were only going to get more and more unstoppable as they collected bodies coming south. Rushing to meet them in the North made sense - I agree the tactical decisions they made once there left much to be desired. But then again, apparently Dany had a huge reserve of troops we didn’t see on screen in episode 3. 

 
It has to be Jon.   It's their story, fire and ice, everyone else is are just participants.
No question it will be John.  The writers have bent over backwards to make it happen.  Will be interesting to see how it plays out.  Maybe he does it after she orders Tyrion executed.

 
This is one episode vs. the 70ish that come before it. I couldn't care less what is "true" or isn't. I just want a story that cohesively makes sense. The writers have nailed a lot of character/character interactions. However, without the source material they lost their grip on the overall plot and story progression quite a ways back. 
And, I do not think it can be said definitively that she made up her mind to kill every soul in King's Landing based on the dialogue BF quotes.  

 
The WWs were only going to get more and more unstoppable as they collected bodies coming south. Rushing to meet them in the North made sense - I agree the tactical decisions they made once there left much to be desired. But then again, apparently Dany had a huge reserve of troops we didn’t see on screen in episode 3. 
How were they getting past the Wall?

 

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