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Getting fired due to mental illness? (1 Viewer)

KarmaPolice

Footballguy
I have posted a little in the depression thread about my wife. She has battled mental illness for many years - bipolar usually leaning mostly in the depression side. It has been a mild issue with her job (she is a vet) with her being late, being a little behind on files, etc..

About a month ago, she started having migraines a lot. Bad enough that she went to Urgent Care and then driven to the ER to check for a brain bleed. Nothing there, she just had an MRI and other tests which came back negative as well. Long story short, she has had to call out a lot for this, and we still have no answers. Her and her boss decided she should take some time off (1 month), which we are one week into so far to give her the time she needs to get help, make changes, etc. Anyway, she missed a call from him today and gets an email from him. Long and short of the email, is that he doesn't see her/her performance getting better and it probably is best to part ways. Listed a few things specifically, and said if she felt like she could 100% say those could be met MAYBE they should talk about it. It was a termination hidden in some BS.

With reason she is super pissed, and of course this hits as she is near bottom to begin with. She already feels like she is not getting the consideration she deserves because it is a mental not physical illness. For example - an employee at the hospital had a heart attack, and they paid her wages and insurance for 3 months while she recovered. This was one month unpaid leave.

Just venting here, as I am pissed off as well. Also wondering if others have gone through similar things or if there is any recourse/action she might want to consider taking. We are in WI, and it is a fairly small clinic - 3 doctors, maybe 15-20 employees max.

 
I'm not a lawyer but wouldn't this come down to the word "disability?" Disabled people are generally a protected class and backed by the ADA. If she is sometimes physically unable to do her job because of her illness, that seems like it might be a disability.

Interested to hear what the FBG lawyers have to say on this one. Regardless, best of luck to you and your family.

 
Americans with Disabilities Act trumps at will employment i believe and mental illness falls under that category. I think there has to be so many employees working there though to qualify, not sure.

 
No advice to offer but I wish you two the best. Hang in there. There's smart lawyers and other people who will definitely offer great advice.

Make her pancakes tomorrow. Everyone loves pancakes!

 
Yeah, she looked and it looks like it is 15 employees to be covered under the ADA. She thinks they only have 12. Sucks.

I jokingly told her to reply that she would be happy to accept a three month severance or she will seek legal actions. I am sure that would get nowhere too.

I am sure we will be fine. Just furious that this came when she was already down, and that it was his idea to take a month off to try to figure this out.

 
Guy sounds like a #####. Maybe her depression was worsened by working for this turd burglar.
It has gotten worse over the last year. Some of it might have been post-birth of our daughter, but a lot is stress from work as well. It is a hard thing to understand - I live with her, and I can't fully understand it. These migraines might be a whole different issue though.

 
Yeah, she looked and it looks like it is 15 employees to be covered under the ADA. She thinks they only have 12. Sucks.

I jokingly told her to reply that she would be happy to accept a three month severance or she will seek legal actions. I am sure that would get nowhere too.

I am sure we will be fine. Just furious that this came when she was already down, and that it was his idea to take a month off to try to figure this out.
I don't practice in Wisconsin, but it doesn't look like the 15 employee threshold applies under the state discrimination statute.

https://dwd.wisconsin.gov/er/discrimination_civil_rights/publication_erd_7899_p.htm

Of course, it sounds like the key issue is whether granting a month off is a reasonable accommodation. Given the small size of the organization and depending on your wife's role, holding her job for a month may not be reasonable. This will be a fact intensive inquiry.

 
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Yeah, she looked and it looks like it is 15 employees to be covered under the ADA. She thinks they only have 12. Sucks.

I jokingly told her to reply that she would be happy to accept a three month severance or she will seek legal actions. I am sure that would get nowhere too.

I am sure we will be fine. Just furious that this came when she was already down, and that it was his idea to take a month off to try to figure this out.
I don't practice in Wisconsin, but it doesn't look like the 15 employee threshold applies under the state discrimination statute.

https://dwd.wisconsin.gov/er/discrimination_civil_rights/publication_erd_7899_p.htm

Of course, it sounds like the key issue is whether granting a month off is a reasonable accommodation. Given the small size of the organization and depending on your wife's role, holding her job for a month may not be reasonable. This will be a fact intensive inquiry.
Thanks for the link. I was looking over the doc, but where did you see that info?

I get your point, but we asked for 2 weeks off, concurrent with me taking a little time off to help and take the kids all the time so she can focus on herself. It was his idea that she starts right away (because she had to call in a few times) and take a month off. If it wasn't reasonable for him, he shouldn't have offered, IMO.

As for other accommodations, a big part of the tension and stress is her files. She will get behind and they pile up a bit. Combination of being busy, being very slow/detailed with her files, and being spent after a day of working with patients. She has requested some time one day a week in the morning to catch up on files. This seems to be agreed upon, and OK for about a week, then they start filling that time with appts, OR an urgent patient will come in, and the receptionists give it to her because she is there. It spirals out of control quickly. She said tonight that the other doctor also brought up having an electronic system so they could do files at home with a log in since it is a no no to remove files from the office.

 
Yeah, she looked and it looks like it is 15 employees to be covered under the ADA. She thinks they only have 12. Sucks.

I jokingly told her to reply that she would be happy to accept a three month severance or she will seek legal actions. I am sure that would get nowhere too.

I am sure we will be fine. Just furious that this came when she was already down, and that it was his idea to take a month off to try to figure this out.
I don't practice in Wisconsin, but it doesn't look like the 15 employee threshold applies under the state discrimination statute. https://dwd.wisconsin.gov/er/discrimination_civil_rights/publication_erd_7899_p.htm

Of course, it sounds like the key issue is whether granting a month off is a reasonable accommodation. Given the small size of the organization and depending on your wife's role, holding her job for a month may not be reasonable. This will be a fact intensive inquiry.
The employer seems to be focusing on past job performance and not this particular absense. That protects him, right?

 
They have quotas for a maximum number of people covered by the ADA? Am I reading that right?

How the #### is that legal in any state?

 
First off, good luck Karma. I hope your wife gets everything she needs. This country is terrible at accepting mental illness as real.

I'm not a lawyer, but I would guess any case she might have would need to show proof that she really has depression and/or bipolar and the business not only knew about it, but fired her because of it. Sadly, there are no winners here. I can imagine how hard it would be for a small business to have to pay someone who isn't there or can't do the entire job they are being paid for. Needless to say, their burden isn't nearly that of your family.

 
They have quotas for a maximum number of people covered by the ADA? Am I reading that right?

How the #### is that legal in any state?
If it is true, I suppose it's no different than the other thousand laws that are different from small businesses to large corporations. Small businesses simply can't absorb certain things the same way.
 
Yeah, she looked and it looks like it is 15 employees to be covered under the ADA. She thinks they only have 12. Sucks.

I jokingly told her to reply that she would be happy to accept a three month severance or she will seek legal actions. I am sure that would get nowhere too.

I am sure we will be fine. Just furious that this came when she was already down, and that it was his idea to take a month off to try to figure this out.
I don't practice in Wisconsin, but it doesn't look like the 15 employee threshold applies under the state discrimination statute. https://dwd.wisconsin.gov/er/discrimination_civil_rights/publication_erd_7899_p.htmOf course, it sounds like the key issue is whether granting a month off is a reasonable accommodation. Given the small size of the organization and depending on your wife's role, holding her job for a month may not be reasonable. This will be a fact intensive inquiry.
The employer seems to be focusing on past job performance and not this particular absense. That protects him, right?
Potentially. Depends on whether her disability could be accommodated by allowing her additional time to do her filing as mentioned more recently in the thread (if the performance issue is falling behind on maintaining her files).

 
Yeah, she looked and it looks like it is 15 employees to be covered under the ADA. She thinks they only have 12. Sucks.

I jokingly told her to reply that she would be happy to accept a three month severance or she will seek legal actions. I am sure that would get nowhere too.

I am sure we will be fine. Just furious that this came when she was already down, and that it was his idea to take a month off to try to figure this out.
I don't practice in Wisconsin, but it doesn't look like the 15 employee threshold applies under the state discrimination statute.https://dwd.wisconsin.gov/er/discrimination_civil_rights/publication_erd_7899_p.htm

Of course, it sounds like the key issue is whether granting a month off is a reasonable accommodation. Given the small size of the organization and depending on your wife's role, holding her job for a month may not be reasonable. This will be a fact intensive inquiry.
Thanks for the link. I was looking over the doc, but where did you see that info?
From the link:Wisconsin's Fair Employment Law gives civil rights protections to qualified persons with disabilities. The law applies to virtually all private and public employers, regardless of the number of employees.

Under the federal Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), disability discrimination is also prohibited for employers having 15 or more employees.

And the definition of "employer" in the Wisconsin employment discrimination statute is as follows:

"Employer" means the state and each agency of the state and, except as provided in par. (b), any other person engaging in any activity, enterprise or business employing at least one individual. In this subsection, "agency" means an office, department, independent agency, authority, institution, association, society or other body in state government created or authorized to be created by the constitution or any law, including the legislature and the courts.

Finally, an online summary of Wisconsin's discrimination statute says this:

Wisconsin law prohibits employment discrimination based on race, color, national origin, ancestry, sex, pregnancy, religion, disability, age (40 and older), genetic information, marital status, sexual orientation (including having a history of or being identified with a particular orientation), arrest or conviction record, or military service. All Wisconsin employers must comply with these laws, even those with only one employee.

http://www.wrongfulterminationlaws.com/resources/wrongful-termination-law/state-job-termination-laws/wisconsin.htm

 
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I get your point, but we asked for 2 weeks off, concurrent with me taking a little time off to help and take the kids all the time so she can focus on herself. It was his idea that she starts right away (because she had to call in a few times) and take a month off. If it wasn't reasonable for him, he shouldn't have offered, IMO.
Agreed. I read too quickly and missed that the month off was the employer's suggestion.

 
Wisconsin is a big "follow your policy" state. If they gave another guy 3 months paid and made no formal policy changes before your wife's leave, they might not really be able to alter it.

Different scenario, but a friend of mine quit his job and they tried to not pay out his vacation time. Wisconsin has no laws saying they have to, but because they had paid it out for other employees, they had to. Didn't even need an atty. Just filed a claim with the equal rights division.

 
Important info I think...

-How long has she been employed there?

The reason is, to ensure she can collect unemployment, she will want to make sure her status is being terminated. It is very important that she is not resigning or stepping down.

I would encourage her to meet those requirements by the boss and force their hand. If the goal is something else then please share. I will not listen to (we don't need the money). You all paid into the system and she is not doing well, 90 days of unemployment benefits while she figure things out will at least put some groceries on the table for the little ones.

good vibes coming your way.

 
If you have documented diagnosis it would help immensely.

Without any of that she is not being fired due to mental illness, she would be getting fired for poor performance.

Also depending how severe (especially if there have been any inpatient psych admission and/or use of ECT, along with the inability to maintain consistent employment due to the condition), she could very well be entitled to SSI payments. Something to look into, and something to DEFINITELY apply for if she does indeed get fired.

 
Didn't read the whole thread, so sorry for repeating anything. Just off the cuff without fact checking: I believe that you cannot discriminate over a diagnosed MI and that an employer has to meet some level of reasonable accommodation for their employee. If she is diagnosed and disclosed it to her employer and her performance issues are directly related to said MI, then I believe the employer has to work with her up to some reasonable level. I could be 100% wrong but I just had an HR training on something similar and remember a takeaway being not wanting to have an employee disclose medical issues for HR reasons, because then you have to be careful how you do certain things as an employer (as a manager, I of course want a report to tell me if they have some issue and feel like it will impact their work).

 
X-wife was bipolar.

Was an absolute nightmare. Multiple affairs, repossessed house and car. Could never keep a job for more then a year or so.

T&P, but you might be getting off easy to this point.

 
What an azzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzhole employer. I hope you can get something from him. I didn't know about this 15 employee minimum thing. My cousin must have scathed through that one when she went out on MI and was told they couldn't fire her when it looked like they were trying to. She didn't take state disability, just used her sick and vacation time.

I certainly would not advise her to go back to that place if he should offer it back to her. Mental illness is rough, very rough. Best to take all the time she needs to become stabilised now. That's the most important for her and all your sakes. As they say, one door closes and another better one opens. One step at a time. Usually what you find in the end is it was a blessing..

Wishing her well. Good luck. :)

 
So he suggested she sit out a month? That sounds like the right solution. But then canning her one week in is awful. You guys have my best wishes, thoughts and prayers, truly.

Couple ideas: if you see a lawyer it's possible that the employer created an implied, constructive, oral, conditional contract. If your wife was doing her part like resting and getting treatment then he is arguably in breach. If he ever put the one month part in writing at some point all the better.

Also if your wife is seeing a therapist, if he/she can provide some sort of diagnosis indicating when your wife will be back to speed, then maybe that might help allay the boss' concerns and blunt any argument he might interpose that she is not ever going to get any better.

Just trying to brainstorm, good luck, I'm sure everything will work out for the best and look for silver linings. - SID

 
Didn't read the whole thread, so sorry for repeating anything. Just off the cuff without fact checking: I believe that you cannot discriminate over a diagnosed MI and that an employer has to meet some level of reasonable accommodation for their employee. If she is diagnosed and disclosed it to her employer and her performance issues are directly related to said MI, then I believe the employer has to work with her up to some reasonable level. I could be 100% wrong but I just had an HR training on something similar and remember a takeaway being not wanting to have an employee disclose medical issues for HR reasons, because then you have to be careful how you do certain things as an employer (as a manager, I of course want a report to tell me if they have some issue and feel like it will impact their work).
Then you missed that her employer may not have enough employees to qualify under ADA rules.

 
I would be curious to hear what a lawyer had to say, but in my experience, you can't terminate (or even speak about it in a "wink wink" manner) if a disability is potentially (part of) the reason why.

When someone's performance is subpar, they should be given a chance to improve upon that and the process usually goes something like verbal warning, written warning, probationary period, termination. When you overlay a disability on top of that? The first action by an employer should be help in getting her back to a healthy state. Mental disabilities CAN be difficult that way because often times there aren't visible symptoms and they're easy to fake. Most disability policies will even limit a mental disability to 2 years worth of payment to cap the ones that are faking it and, unfortunately, lots of slackers at work who see the writing on the wall will often use depression as a way of actually escaping being fired...or at least pushing it out farther and collecting a paycheck longer.

If she hasn't had a consistent history of poor performance with no signs of improvement and she is being treated in an outpatient manner (even 1 appt a week), I would think she has a legal stance where she should not be fired OR even threatened (without a proper performance management process already in motion). On the flipside, if she's been an underperformer who's been notified of that and just hasn't gotten better....and she has no clinical ties to her depression/disability diagnosis, it could be a tougher conversation. Good luck.

 
So if Charles Manson got out and applied for a job in WI a potential employer couldn't use his criminal background as a basis to not hire him? :confused:

 
Bump for any additional advice for KP.

His opinion on movies kinda sucks but he's a good dude.
:lmao:

I will update more, but he officially fired her yesterday. Fittingly, she had to go in to finish up a couple files, they talked/argued, and he let her go.

Karma a is ##### I guess, because the other Dr. besides him had to go in for an emergency surgery last night, so he is flying solo.

 
I would definitely speak to a laywer about a severance package or some sort of reparations. It sounds as though she had no formal or documented performance management process here. You can't just get mad and fire someone you don't like anymore.

 
Bump for any additional advice for KP.

His opinion on movies kinda sucks but he's a good dude.
:lmao:

I will update more, but he officially fired her yesterday. Fittingly, she had to go in to finish up a couple files, they talked/argued, and he let her go.

Karma a is ##### I guess, because the other Dr. besides him had to go in for an emergency surgery last night, so he is flying solo.
(414) 276-6666 1 call that's all.

 
I'm in WI as well and years ago we went through about a year and a half process of documenting poor performance, PIP plans, no call/no shows, conflicts with customers and other employees, missed billing etc etc before we could terminate someone who was bipolar among other mental problems. HR (contracted out, not in-house) kept telling us that we would be in a world of hurt if we simply let her go. None of it mattered in the end because she was slamming vodka at her desk and that was enough to allow us to terminate her.

It's a slippery slope but make sure you speak with a lawyer. Depending on what her (former) employer knows you may have some recourse. Glll to you and I hope she feels better.

 
So if Charles Manson got out and applied for a job in WI a potential employer couldn't use his criminal background as a basis to not hire him? :confused:
Correct. I think a few industries would be allowed to, but most could not. Wisconsin is different than most states regarding this.

 
Set up a consultation with a plaintiff's employment lawyer. (And don't shy away from anyone who charges a consultation fee; "free consultations" are often worth what you pay for them.) Luckily, you're in a state with a law protecting disability-motivated terminations. On the facts you've presented, I'd be pretty interested in such a case if it were in any of the states in which I practice. GL and TPW to your wife.

 
Aerial Assault said:
Set up a consultation with a plaintiff's employment lawyer. (And don't shy away from anyone who charges a consultation fee; "free consultations" are often worth what you pay for them.) Luckily, you're in a state with a law protecting disability-motivated terminations. On the facts you've presented, I'd be pretty interested in such a case if it were in any of the states in which I practice. GL and TPW to your wife.
I couldn't disagree with this advice more. I think committing to pay piles of money to chase after something like this is a bad investment. There is a history of poor performance and from the OP he hasn't officially terminated her. What is a lawyer going to do?

I think the first thing that is needed is clarity as to what the employer is actually asking for here.

 
Aerial Assault said:
Set up a consultation with a plaintiff's employment lawyer. (And don't shy away from anyone who charges a consultation fee; "free consultations" are often worth what you pay for them.) Luckily, you're in a state with a law protecting disability-motivated terminations. On the facts you've presented, I'd be pretty interested in such a case if it were in any of the states in which I practice. GL and TPW to your wife.
I couldn't disagree with this advice more. I think committing to pay piles of money to chase after something like this is a bad investment. There is a history of poor performance and from the OP he hasn't officially terminated her. What is a lawyer going to do? I think the first thing that is needed is clarity as to what the employer is actually asking for here.
She's been fired.
 
Aerial Assault said:
Set up a consultation with a plaintiff's employment lawyer. (And don't shy away from anyone who charges a consultation fee; "free consultations" are often worth what you pay for them.) Luckily, you're in a state with a law protecting disability-motivated terminations. On the facts you've presented, I'd be pretty interested in such a case if it were in any of the states in which I practice. GL and TPW to your wife.
I couldn't disagree with this advice more. I think committing to pay piles of money to chase after something like this is a bad investment. There is a history of poor performance and from the OP he hasn't officially terminated her. What is a lawyer going to do? I think the first thing that is needed is clarity as to what the employer is actually asking for here.
She's been fired.
I see that now. When I clicked on go to last read post it took me to Strykers. Never saw that update yesterday. I replied to post right above his update though so I am guessing that is why I missed. My bad.

KP said he would update more eventually. I am wondering what the reasoning was. Would also like to know how thorough his wife was with keeping her employer informed.

We had an employee that worked in the field and would take extended breaks during middle of the day. Never asked. Always just said afterwards he wasn't feeling well. We informed him repeatedly that he couldn't just do that had to inform us and give us a chance to make adjustments or schedule day differently. Finally fired him for it.

Well he came back at us via ERD and said he had a heart condition and he needed to rest. Tried to say we discriminated against him for being disabled. He had documentation verifying he did in fact have a heart condition.

We still won because the Admin. Law Judge determined that he didn't properly inform us of his condition. Basically saying you can't use it as an after the fact excuse even if it is a valid disability.

 
Didn't read the whole thread, so sorry for repeating anything. Just off the cuff without fact checking: I believe that you cannot discriminate over a diagnosed MI and that an employer has to meet some level of reasonable accommodation for their employee. If she is diagnosed and disclosed it to her employer and her performance issues are directly related to said MI, then I believe the employer has to work with her up to some reasonable level. I could be 100% wrong but I just had an HR training on something similar and remember a takeaway being not wanting to have an employee disclose medical issues for HR reasons, because then you have to be careful how you do certain things as an employer (as a manager, I of course want a report to tell me if they have some issue and feel like it will impact their work).
Then you missed that her employer may not have enough employees to qualify under ADA rules.
Well you would be correct.I believe some states lessen that threshold - I think it is 5 in NH. Someone probably already said that too.

 
Having a disability that makes it so you can't perform the job description isn't discrimination. It's discrimination against disabled people versus non-disabled people that are both perfectly able to perform the job in question. If I own a telephone pole company that hires people to regularly climb telephone poles and one of them gets into a car accident and loses his legs I'm not required to keep that employee employed.

Of course the OP doesn't list the job description, so it's hard to tell but, most job descriptions include showing up on time and making assignment deadlines. The employer may be required to make some accommodations for her disability in order for her to be timely, however, he also has to be made aware of the disability.

I don't see any action at this point against the employer.

 
Having a disability that makes it so you can't perform the job description isn't discrimination. It's discrimination against disabled people versus non-disabled people that are both perfectly able to perform the job in question. If I own a telephone pole company that hires people to regularly climb telephone poles and one of them gets into a car accident and loses his legs I'm not required to keep that employee employed.

Of course the OP doesn't list the job description, so it's hard to tell but, most job descriptions include showing up on time and making assignment deadlines. The employer may be required to make some accommodations for her disability in order for her to be timely, however, he also has to be made aware of the disability.

I don't see any action at this point against the employer.
Actually, I did.

 
Having a disability that makes it so you can't perform the job description isn't discrimination. It's discrimination against disabled people versus non-disabled people that are both perfectly able to perform the job in question. If I own a telephone pole company that hires people to regularly climb telephone poles and one of them gets into a car accident and loses his legs I'm not required to keep that employee employed.

Of course the OP doesn't list the job description, so it's hard to tell but, most job descriptions include showing up on time and making assignment deadlines. The employer may be required to make some accommodations for her disability in order for her to be timely, however, he also has to be made aware of the disability.

I don't see any action at this point against the employer.
In your example, wouldn't you have to make some kind of reasonable accommodation for that now disabled employee? Like perhaps offering a desk job for them - they obviously don't have to accept, but I would think the employer would have to show they made some kind of effort if they have the capacity to do so.
 
Having a disability that makes it so you can't perform the job description isn't discrimination. It's discrimination against disabled people versus non-disabled people that are both perfectly able to perform the job in question. If I own a telephone pole company that hires people to regularly climb telephone poles and one of them gets into a car accident and loses his legs I'm not required to keep that employee employed.

Of course the OP doesn't list the job description, so it's hard to tell but, most job descriptions include showing up on time and making assignment deadlines. The employer may be required to make some accommodations for her disability in order for her to be timely, however, he also has to be made aware of the disability.

I don't see any action at this point against the employer.
1). He was aware of her disability. He's the one who suggested she take the month off to recuperate.

2). Firing someone during a medical leave is about the highest risk firing there is. Because if she's out on leave, she didn't do anything to justify the firing at the time the firing occurred. Put another way, if there was a performance related basis to fire her, why didn't he fire her when those performance reasons arose? Once she's out on leave, it's hard to argue that there were new performance problems that prompted the termination.

3). It's hard to argue that a one month leave isn't a reasonable accommodation of her disability if the employer is the one who recommended it.

4). While the employer doesn't have enough employees to be covered by the federal ADA, it appears that they are subject to Wisconsin's state law prohibiting disability discrimination.

I'm a defense lawyer, and these facts as recited would give me a lot of heartburn. Not saying there aren't other facts that could support a viable and ultimately successful defense.

 

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