That's BS. NY and NJ look bad still and have had beautiful weather for weeks now. It's spring. EVERYONE is outside. No need to be indoors.
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Gov. Abbott opens TX. MS, CT, WV, AZ & KS join. Now GOP opens Georgia! (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter NorvilleBarnes
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The Z Machine
Footballguy
The question is what to do about this surge? If people are "over it" and disregarding social distancing advice, what can be done? Throw up our hands or lock down harder?
Its not a surge. Hospitals are fine (NYC hospitalizations are plummeting). Young people are getting sick. The vulnerable are vaccinated.
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IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Continue with vaccinations and move on.
There's no longer any good argument for lock-downs. Those made sense, and I supported them, when huge swaths of high-risk people were walking around with zero immunity to this virus. That's no longer the case. High-risk people have been vaccinated for some time now, and we're currently giving shots to young and healthy people for whom covid was never a serious threat to start with. Circumstances changed thankfully, and it's time for policy to change with them.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I mean, lockdowns really were a massive violation of basic civil rights. And that's okay. In extreme circumstances, this sort of civil rights violation might be justified. We literally enslaved people in the 1940s and forced them to go liberate Europe and conquer Japan, and nobody thinks that was unwarranted. That was a totally fine policy response to a genuine national emergency, but we would not be justified in enslaving people in peacetime.
Likewise, covid-19 was a real life national emergency. Lockdowns, social distancing, masks mandates, etc. were all good policy choices to slow down the virus and stop hospitals from being overwhelmed. That threat has since passed. We're at most a few weeks from the covid equivalent of VE/VJ day, and arguably we're already there. It's time for policy to reflect that and for us to go back to letting people live their lives.
Likewise, covid-19 was a real life national emergency. Lockdowns, social distancing, masks mandates, etc. were all good policy choices to slow down the virus and stop hospitals from being overwhelmed. That threat has since passed. We're at most a few weeks from the covid equivalent of VE/VJ day, and arguably we're already there. It's time for policy to reflect that and for us to go back to letting people live their lives.
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
There were about 1000 deaths from Covid in the U.S. yesterday. That seems kinda high if it were true that all the high risk people have already been vaccinated and the only unvaccinated people are those for whom it was never a serious threat. Who are the people that are dying?
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He never said all. Plus it takes weeks to die sometimes. Those people got sick in Feb/March.
This is a month old but shows you what % were vaccinated when the people who died got sick.
https://www.axios.com/vulnerable-americans-seniors-coronavirus-vaccine-13fdf11d-3a79-424c-bbb0-14ac9f41e4fa.html
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IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Well, some high-risk people have opted against vaccination. I support their right to do so at their own risk. They're on their own as far as I'm concerned -- giving people access to schools, churches, restaurants, movie theaters, etc. takes precedence over the health of people who declined vaccination.
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
Do you think these people have made this risk calculus with full knowledge of relevant considerations and using accurate information? Does that make a difference to you?
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
To be honest, I don't personally know any anti-vaxxers, at least to my knowledge. My guess -- and I feel pretty good about this -- is that most people who are opting against vaccination are doing so for extremely ill-conceived reasons. The regular media hasn't done a good job on this topic, and I assume that places like Facebook and Gateway Pundit or whatever are cesspools of misinformation.
That doesn't make a difference to me. This time last year, I felt bad for local business owners who were forced to shut down, but it was the right call. The circumstances we faced were really that dire that if some people lost their businesses, that was just something that we were collectively going to have to put up with. I didn't complain about that, and I also didn't complain about the massive bailouts and stimulus payments that went out. I'm not at all comfortable telling a vaccinated restaurant owner that he has to keep his establishment shuttered because Aunt Tudy read that vaccines contain microchips on the Facebook. That's Aunt Tudy's problem.
I know a few people who have said that they want to wait a while before getting it, but I only know one who I would consider an anti-vaxxer & she is absolute bat guano crazy, I mean talks about end times, fluoride in contrails, Covid vaccines will kill half the population in 6-8 months and you need to take some silver hokum instead crazy. Yesterday she sent my wife some nonsense about the Paramount logo carrying subliminal messages.
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
Right now I'm not advocating for a particular policy. I probably agree that the time for lockdowns has passed.
But I think this is an example where the government needs to be doing more to nudge people to do the right thing. We still have a public health emergency happening, I think it's wrong for us to ignore it just because the people that will suffer have made a bad decision.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I agree. I think you and I are more or less on the same page, or at least in the same general ballpark. I don't have any brilliant ideas for how to convince vaccine-hesitant people to get vaccinated, but I support strong nudges in that direction. And I'm completely fine with schools (for example) requiring them.
Not true in Michiganjobarules said:
https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/local/2021/04/08/michigans-latest-covid-surge-has-metro-detroit-hospitals-nearing-capacity/
Great post. I just got back from seeing my son fulfill his dream by running in a D1 track meet at University of Tennessee. I spent $2,000 on a 2 day trip, knowing that this may be his first and last race. It’s a picture perfect Spring night. I get to the OUTDOOR track stadium and find out that NO FANS ARE ALLOWED IN. You’re kidding, right? There’s enough seating in the stadium that every fan could socially distance by at least 20 feet. There’s more security at the event than you could ever imagine. At one point I literally started begging people to let me in. I had an N95 mask on and I was vaccinated a month ago. No entry. No exceptions. Fortunately I was able to watch the event from outside the stadium though the view was terrible.IvanKaramazov said:
FairWarning
Footballguy
They don't care. There are still people out there who still think its a flu or a government control mechanism. I dealt with one today.fatguyinalittlecoat said:
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Ventilation and purification.The Z Machine said:
Eta:and vaccination.
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NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
And now New Hampshire has no statewide mask mandate.
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
Bumping this very old thread since we're rehashing the same arguments about mandates in the FL thread. Anyone in Texas still alive?
BassNBrew
Footballguy
Yup...29,940,000. Just missing 57,000...basically Galveston wiped off the map or 1/2 of College Station. Nothing to see here.
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
BassNBrew
Footballguy
Yes. I know there’s a debate on effectiveness, but they seemed to work last time and something crushed the flu last year. Personally I’d rather implement social distancing before masks
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
Rich Conway
Footballguy
That'd be nice, but the past 18 months have taught us that without a mandate you won't get those things.
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
BassNBrew
Footballguy
I understand you point, problem is that others choices impact the health of my family and friends.
Just curious, what are your thoughts on...
1. Seatbelt laws.
2. Public nudity.
3. Stores requiring shirt and shoes.
4. Mandated car liability insurance.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
The solution here is for your family and friends to get vaccinated. Then we can all go back to minding our own business.
If your family and friends refuse to get vaccinated, that's fine IMO. If it were up to me, they would have that right. But then I'm not going to budge one inch for those folks.
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The Commish
Footballguy
If they can....that's the rub many continue to look past. I am 100% in lock step with not giving an inch to those who can get the vaccine, but don't. I couldn't care less what happens to them. They made their decision. Let nature take it's course.
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
Pretty much the same. It's pretty consistent and predictable. You can support something without mandating it and you can oppose something without outlawing it.
There are countries where citizens don't have to deal with these pesky "choices".
BassNBrew
Footballguy
SIL was. Unvaxed coworker who had traveled got her. COVID itself wasn’t too bad, just burned a week of PTO and missed taking her daughter to college. The ride to ER two weeks late with post Covid symptoms was a lot more serious.
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