Government Response To The Coronavirus (1 Viewer)

[Biff84]

The crazy thing is, it's not evident that the administration even cares if this spawns a gabillion lawsuits.  When they reinstituted the eviction moratorium, they said there was a good chance it would be tossed out by the courts but they were doing it any way.  If this clogs up the courts for months and eventually gets thrown out, it might still be seen as a victory by them because in the meantime it will nudge/force more people towards vaccination and more employers towards vaccination mandates.  That, to put it mildly, is no way to run a railroad, and yet here we are.

Agreed. I equate it to my kid’s school putting in a mask mandate but allowing an opt-out. Sure it won’t be 100% but it jumped from 10% to maybe 70%, a significant improvement. I don’t see it getting thrown out either.

 

[tonydead]

We should all hate this. 

They can’t. Cuz Team Blue. Cuz Trump!  If you tried to dream up something worse than leaving hundreds of Americans to die in Afghanistan and the guy does it the very next week. Unreal. 

 

[parasaurolophus]

Understood. I don’t think it’s practical to expect air exchangers implemented throughout society either (nor am I wholly convinced they as effective as some of you believe - seems like a big project to start without compelling data).

As an aside, I didn’t mean filtering air as the sole “cleaning” method. UV light kills viruses pretty well, for example.

There is more compelling data for fresh air than there is for cloth masks.

"Make indoors outdoors"

Public health knew this 100 years ago. Too bad they would rather focus on wokeness. 

 

[fatness]

Apparently Biden has exempted the Postal Service from the vaccine mandate.

I'll temporarily reserve judgment because this is a breaking news situation and stories that emerge in the first few hours often end up being wrong, but oh boy I hope this one isn't true.

It's not true.

Washington Post reporter who's been trying to find out what's going on regarding the vaccine mandate and the USPS.

Jacob Bogage @jacobbogage

JUST IN: White House official now says USPS workers ARE part of the federal vaccine mandate under OSHA jurisdiction, though technically not under the executive order.

 

[Terminalxylem]

The only number I care about is mortality rate.  Everybody in the world, if they live long enough, at some point in their lives will get covid.  It will not be eradicated.  It will continue to mutate.      

Then you are missing a lot of suffering, both for patients and healthcare facilities struggling with their numbers.

We aren’t going to eradicate SARS-CoV-2, but we certainly can get it under better control.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Do we know or have an estimate of what % of the population can't be vaccinated? Maybe it's better if we find a way they can stay home to work or collect benefits.

Maybe I'm heartless, but we're to the point of mandating something (that doesnt solve the problem) so that 99% of the population doesnt adversely impact the 1% who still have a 98% chance of getting through it ok.

The cost may be 20 or 30% of the workforce terminated. Morale goes down and outrage goes up. 

This isn't the answer. 

You’re underestimated the percentage of people at risk to be adversely impacted by covid, and overestimating the percentage willing to risk termination for their antvax beliefs.

 

[Terminalxylem]

I didnt mean to, I'm just looking for the facts behind the unvax'd pose a greater threat to the vaccinated. 

You’re cherry picking unvaccinated, previously infected individuals versus those with maximal time for vaccine-induced immunity to wane. So the best the unvaccinated  crowd has to offer, versus nearly the worst immunized people. Why choose those extremes?

Other than pointing out the ease and extremely low risk of vaccination versus infection, I’d still take the odds with a closet full of vaccinated people. Every study but one TMK suggests their immunity is more reliable.

 

[Terminalxylem]

What I find positively infuriating is when the government actively forbids people from voluntarily choosing vaccination.  That's a much cleaner argument from libertarian principles IMO, and it's been a dynamic that's killed literally millions of people.

I understand your contempt for government interference in decision-making, but I’m having a hard time finding the millions of deaths in the US caused by our vaccine policies. On the contrary, I suspect our populace’s “informed” decisions will ultimately cost many, many more lives.

 

[Terminalxylem]

We should expect employees filing disability and workers compensation claims.  Anyone that can reasonably argue getting vaccinated is dangerous to their health or for religious reasons.  

So people with a history of anaphylaxis to the covid vaccines, Scientologists and the Amish. How many federal employees can that be?

 

[Terminalxylem]

There is more compelling data for fresh air than there is for cloth masks.

"Make indoors outdoors"

Public health knew this 100 years ago. Too bad they would rather focus on wokeness. 

I understand the concept. What I don’t know, and feel free to educate me, is how realistic it is to accomplish it. The air isn’t the only thing that makes being outside safer, for example.

 

[belljr]

Plot twist.... Republicans become pro union

 

[stlrams]

So people with a history of anaphylaxis to the covid vaccines, Scientologists and the Amish. How many federal employees can that be?

The mandate covers all companies with 100 employees or more.  I would add the following: Orthodox Jews, jehova witness,  autoimmune people, allergies etc.  even though you have a very safe vaccine people are not going to take that chance with their lives then claim disability.  There are very few  judges that will deny this claim.  I work in the insurance industry and judges/ federal government are pro- employee.  

 

[Terminalxylem]

The mandate covers all companies with 100 employees or more.  I would add the following: Orthodox Jews, jehova witness,  autoimmune people, allergies etc.  even though you have a very safe vaccine people are not going to take that chance with their lives then claim disability.  There are very few  judges that will deny this claim.  I work in the insurance industry and judges/ federal government are pro- employee.  

You’re right there are others who will claim exemption, but the legitimacy of their requests is highly suspect.

I was unaware that orthodox Jews and Jehovah’s witnesses had a problem with vaccines, but I'll take your word for it. But there is only one medical contraindication to vaccination: life-threatening allergy to the vaccine or its components.

 

[shader]

You’re right there are others who will claim exemption, but the legitimacy of their requests is highly suspect.

I was unaware that orthodox Jews and Jehovah’s witnesses had a problem with vaccines, but I'll take your word for it. But there is only one medical contraindication to vaccination: life-threatening allergy to the vaccine or its components.

This is inaccurate

 

[Max Power]

You’re underestimated the percentage of people at risk to be adversely impacted by covid, and overestimating the percentage willing to risk termination for their antvax beliefs.

So what is the %?

 

[Terminalxylem]

So what is the %?

A lot more than 1% of the population has risk for inadequate immune response to the vaccine, including people with primary immunodeficiencies, AIDS, organ transplants and those who receive chemotherapy or chronic immunosuppressive drugs. And there’s a smattering of people who can’t get the vaccine for legitimate reasons. More importantly, as has been pointed out numerous times, death isn’t the only bad outcome from covid.

On the other side of the equation,  I’ll be shocked if 20% of the workforce is willing to call it quits for their anti-vaccine “principles.” A percentage will find a weaselly excuse why they cannot be vaccinated, some will find other jobs, and many more will just get the shot, once their bluff is called by a threat to their livelihood.

 

[beer 30]

Plot twist.... Republicans become pro union

Damn, did not see that coming 

 

[shadrap]

"We've been patient, but our patience is wearing thin," Biden said of the roughly 80 million Americans who have yet to get the shot. "While America is in much better shape than it was seven months ago when I took office, I need to tell you a second fact: We're in a tough stretch and it could last for awhile."

But Biden stopped short of mandating the vaccine for illegal immigrants attempting to cross America's border, even though about 30% of immigrants held at federal detention facilities are refusing to be vaccinated — and they have the option to refuse

Meanwhile, more than 18% of migrant families who recently crossed the border tested positive for COVID before being released by Border Patrol. Another 20% of unaccompanied minors tested positive for the virus.

why do illegal immigrants get a pass when an American working for a company with over 100 employees is forced to get one?  this should be simple enough.  you want in you get the vax.

this makes no sense.

 

[Rich Conway]

"We've been patient, but our patience is wearing thin," Biden said of the roughly 80 million Americans who have yet to get the shot. "While America is in much better shape than it was seven months ago when I took office, I need to tell you a second fact: We're in a tough stretch and it could last for awhile."

But Biden stopped short of mandating the vaccine for illegal immigrants attempting to cross America's border, even though about 30% of immigrants held at federal detention facilities are refusing to be vaccinated — and they have the option to refuse

Meanwhile, more than 18% of migrant families who recently crossed the border tested positive for COVID before being released by Border Patrol. Another 20% of unaccompanied minors tested positive for the virus.

why do illegal immigrants get a pass when an American working for a company with over 100 employees is forced to get one?  this should be simple enough.  you want in you get the vax.

this makes no sense.

If true, agreed wholeheartedly.  No vaccine, no entry.

 

[jobarules]

It's not true.

Washington Post reporter who's been trying to find out what's going on regarding the vaccine mandate and the USPS.

You're wrong

https://nypost.com/2021/09/09/usps-exempt-from-biden-vax-mandate-for-100m-workers/

“USPS is not included in the executive order requiring vaccination of Federal employees. USPS has a separate statutory scheme and is traditionally independent of federal personnel actions like this,” a Biden administration official said.

 

[jobarules]

"We've been patient, but our patience is wearing thin," Biden said of the roughly 80 million Americans who have yet to get the shot. "While America is in much better shape than it was seven months ago when I took office, I need to tell you a second fact: We're in a tough stretch and it could last for awhile."

But Biden stopped short of mandating the vaccine for illegal immigrants attempting to cross America's border, even though about 30% of immigrants held at federal detention facilities are refusing to be vaccinated — and they have the option to refuse

Meanwhile, more than 18% of migrant families who recently crossed the border tested positive for COVID before being released by Border Patrol. Another 20% of unaccompanied minors tested positive for the virus.

why do illegal immigrants get a pass when an American working for a company with over 100 employees is forced to get one?  this should be simple enough.  you want in you get the vax.

this makes no sense.

Crazy, disturbing, I dont know what else to say

 

[parasaurolophus]

I understand the concept. What I don’t know, and feel free to educate me, is how realistic it is to accomplish it. The air isn’t the only thing that makes being outside safer, for example.

I assume you mean UV? 

That isnt very important for stopping transmission outside since the particles are dispersed long before they would be UV destroyed. 

But again this probably goes back to where we disagree about surface transmission and droplet, etc. 

 

[fatness]

You're wrong

https://nypost.com/2021/09/09/usps-exempt-from-biden-vax-mandate-for-100m-workers/

“USPS is not included in the executive order requiring vaccination of Federal employees. USPS has a separate statutory scheme and is traditionally independent of federal personnel actions like this,” a Biden administration official said.

That doesn't contradict what I posted. It's reporting on an earlier tweet from the same WaPo reporter who later updated with what I quoted. Chronology matters.

White House official now says USPS workers ARE part of the federal vaccine mandate under OSHA jurisdiction, though technically not under the executive order.

 

[jobarules]

That doesn't contradict what I posted. It's reporting on an earlier tweet from the same WaPo reporter who later updated with what I quoted. Chronology matters.

The OSHA order includes the alternative for testing. The executive order does not.

 

[fatness]

The OSHA order includes the alternative for testing. The executive order does not.

OK, thanks for correcting me on that.

 

[fatness]

Although there are bound to be lawsuits on the vaccination order, according to several legal experts it's constitutional.

https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/no-issue-of-constitutionality-legal-experts-give-bidens-certainly-constitutional-vaccine-mandates-the-go-ahead/

 

[Grace Under Pressure]

IMO there should be a testing option. I'm not a fan of forced mandates by the government. I could see requiring the vaccine for schools and the military like many vaccines are currently, but the vaccine isn't even approved for 5-11 year olds yet. The timing on this isn't right IMO. They should absolutely prioritize approving the vaccine for 5-11 year olds first before going down the road of mandates. In the meantime encouraging employers, etc. 

 

[Rich Conway]

Although there are bound to be lawsuits on the vaccination order, according to several legal experts it's constitutional.

https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/no-issue-of-constitutionality-legal-experts-give-bidens-certainly-constitutional-vaccine-mandates-the-go-ahead/

I suspect we can all agree on the bolded, from the furthest right to the furthest left, everywhere in between, and elsewhere.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

https://twitter.com/FrankLuntz/status/1436133511316979719

Frank Luntz@FrankLuntz

Swing-state poll of employer vax mandates:

• 𝗔𝗿𝗶𝘇𝗼𝗻𝗮 • Favor: 68% • Oppose: 32
  
• 𝗚𝗲𝗼𝗿𝗴𝗶𝗮 • Favor: 63% • Oppose: 37
  
• 𝗠𝗶𝗰𝗵𝗶𝗴𝗮𝗻 • Favor: 61% • Oppose: 39
  
• 𝗣𝗲𝗻𝗻𝘀𝘆𝗹𝘃𝗮𝗻𝗶𝗮 • Favor: 64% • Oppose: 36
  
• 𝗪𝗶𝘀𝗰𝗼𝗻𝘀𝗶𝗻 • Favor: 68% • Oppose: 32
  

Beyond gratifying that Biden is willing to fight for majority-popular ideas that drive FOX, Newsmax and OAN types bonkers.

 

[Doug B]

https://twitter.com/FrankLuntz/status/1436133511316979719

Frank Luntz@FrankLuntz

Swing-state poll of employer vax mandates:

• 𝗔𝗿𝗶𝘇𝗼𝗻𝗮 • Favor: 68% • Oppose: 32
  
• 𝗚𝗲𝗼𝗿𝗴𝗶𝗮 • Favor: 63% • Oppose: 37
  
• 𝗠𝗶𝗰𝗵𝗶𝗴𝗮𝗻 • Favor: 61% • Oppose: 39
  
• 𝗣𝗲𝗻𝗻𝘀𝘆𝗹𝘃𝗮𝗻𝗶𝗮 • Favor: 64% • Oppose: 36
  
• 𝗪𝗶𝘀𝗰𝗼𝗻𝘀𝗶𝗻 • Favor: 68% • Oppose: 32
  

Beyond gratifying that Biden is willing to fight for majority-popular ideas that drive FOX, Newsmax and OAN types bonkers.

It's the right thing to do, and roughly 2/3 of America knows that intuitively. 70 years ago, there would be dramatically less public pushback on something like this.

 

[stlrams]

This is inaccurate

Not entirely.  https://www.advocatehealth.com/assets/documents/faith/jehovah5.pdf

Their religion is based on the Bible and vaccinations are a violation of gods laws. Now it’s true it leaders are somewhat receptive to the vaccine,  

 

[The Commish]

A lot more than 1% of the population has risk for inadequate immune response to the vaccine, including people with primary immunodeficiencies, AIDS, organ transplants and those receive chemotherapy or chronic immunosuppressive drugs. And there’s a smattering of people who can’t get the vaccine for legitimate reasons. More importantly, as has been described numerous times, death isn’t the only bad outcome from covid.

On the other side of the equation,  I’ll be shocked if 20% of the workforce is willing to call it quits for their anti-vaccine “principles.” A percentage will find a weaselly excuse why they cannot be vaccinated, some will find other jobs, and many more will just get the shot, once their bluff is called by a threat to their livelihood.

We know we are already at around 8% just with kids alone.  And no, kids aren't "fine"...not with delta...

 

[The Commish]

If true, agreed wholeheartedly.  No vaccine, no entry.

Yeah, no idea why that's even a thing.  Should be pretty clear cut....dumb.

 

[Chaz McNulty]

https://twitter.com/FrankLuntz/status/1436133511316979719

Frank Luntz@FrankLuntz

Swing-state poll of employer vax mandates:

• 𝗔𝗿𝗶𝘇𝗼𝗻𝗮 • Favor: 68% • Oppose: 32
  
• 𝗚𝗲𝗼𝗿𝗴𝗶𝗮 • Favor: 63% • Oppose: 37
  
• 𝗠𝗶𝗰𝗵𝗶𝗴𝗮𝗻 • Favor: 61% • Oppose: 39
  
• 𝗣𝗲𝗻𝗻𝘀𝘆𝗹𝘃𝗮𝗻𝗶𝗮 • Favor: 64% • Oppose: 36
  
• 𝗪𝗶𝘀𝗰𝗼𝗻𝘀𝗶𝗻 • Favor: 68% • Oppose: 32
  

Beyond gratifying that Biden is willing to fight for majority-popular ideas that drive FOX, Newsmax and OAN types bonkers.

And I would suspect that the majority in the oppose group were not wishy-washy about who they were going to vote for anyways.  

 

[Terminalxylem]

We know we are already at around 8% just with kids alone.  And no, kids aren't "fine"...not with delta...

Yeah, I left kids out intentionally in my estimate, but you’re right.

 

[Insein]

Surprised at how many so easily want to give away their freedoms. 

Do not comply

 

[tonydead]

Surprised at how many so easily want to give away their freedoms. 

Do not comply

Don't worry.  The radical left posters in here don't come close to remotely representing the vast majority of people with common sense that believe in freedom.  

 

[Max Power]

Don't worry.  The radical left posters in here don't come close to remotely representing the vast majority of people with common sense that believe in freedom.  

I think a couple might be Bots

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Surprised at how many so easily want to give away their freedoms. 

Do not comply

I’m not giving away any freedoms, I’m already vaccinated.

 

[Insein]

I’m not giving away any freedoms, I’m already vaccinated.

 

[tonydead]

I’m not giving away any freedoms, I’m already vaccinated.

Do you want to have the same choice next time?  Or just show up anytime they tell you for any shot they choose for you?

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Do you want to have the same choice next time?  Or just show up anytime they tell you for any shot they choose for you?

I’ll only complain if the government tries to mandate a shot for me that is unsafe.  I don’t expect that will happen in my lifetime.

 

[Amused to Death]

The only issue I have with it is the mandate on private employers. I have no problem with requiring federal employees, travel, and schools.

Private employers should be able to set their own rules.

 

[tonydead]

I’ll only complain if the government tries to mandate a shot for me that is unsafe.  I don’t expect that will happen in my lifetime.

So there is one instance you can think of where you'd still like to make the choice for yourself? 

It's a simple idea, freedom or not.  If you find yourself twisting a response and adding qualifiers the answer is freedom.

 

[Doug B]

Do you want to have the same choice next time?  Or just show up anytime they tell you for any shot they choose for you?

Different situations, different ethics. Case by case, always. No one covering rule. Quite often, "freedom" is the overriding determinative concept in a given situation -- but sometimes, "freedom" takes a back seat to something else.

The freedom to apply wisdom to a narrow, extreme situation and meaningfully relinquish a tiny measure of freedom, to serve a greater good, is also a valuable tool in our societal decision-making arsenal. The U.S. Constitution was never equivalent to The Anarchist's Cookbook.

 

[Doug B]

It's a simple idea, freedom or not. 

It's rarely ever this simple. Sometimes, yes -- but few situations can be evaluated based on one lone principle. Almost every time, there are competing principles.

 

[Doug B]

Private employers should be able to set their own rules.

They can if they do not have financial entanglements with the federal government (besides taxes).

 

[Insein]

They can if they do not have financial entanglements with the federal government (besides taxes).

I know in the private sector that's called exhortation but for the government it's just business. Sueing takes a lot money and time to fight and if you do manage to win, the government does it again slightly different and makes you fight it again (see Cuomo). 

 

[Battersbox]

We know we are already at around 8% just with kids alone.  And no, kids aren't "fine"...not with delta...

The kids, as a whole, are fine. They are already doing better than the vaccinated adult population, delta or otherwise.

 

[beer 30]

The only issue I have with it is the mandate on private employers. I have no problem with requiring federal employees, travel, and schools.

Private employers should be able to set their own rules.

I'm hesitant about the government mandating anything at this point. I just don't think we have very bright people in office and done once, it sets precedent for all future occurrences. Not saying the previous administration was smarter, wouldn't trust them either. This is a very slippery slope we are heading toward.