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Green Bay Defense (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter ZzZ
- Start date
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
how high were the PAckers last year??
Now add Pickett, Woodson, Hawk, Hodge, & whoever the S is that the Packers got...
how in the world did they get worse???
Now add Pickett, Woodson, Hawk, Hodge, & whoever the S is that the Packers got...
how in the world did they get worse???
I think they'll be better, but not sure how much better.They did lose their defensive coordinator though.
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
they did, but at the same time they added a ton of talent (something they didn't have much of last year) and they are still going to be running the same system...
Mario Kart
Footballguy
Baaaahhhhhh, SHEEP, baahahahahahahah
To make the conversation a little more specific, Joe/David have the Green Bay Defense in the top third of the league. Everyone else has them in the bottom 5 in the league. Yes, the GB D has theoretically gotten better year over year but, remember, they finished freakin' 25th last year. All this leaves my question:
25th Last Year + Better Talent = Top 3rd Finish ??? I still do not see it.
Hey, Psycho, sorry I must have a mind like a sheep -- are you implying that I am blindly following Joe/David's projections? Obviously I am not given this thread to try to understand what could possibly be in their head to project the GB D so high. Any constructive thoughts?
Z
25th Last Year + Better Talent = Top 3rd Finish ??? I still do not see it.
Hey, Psycho, sorry I must have a mind like a sheep -- are you implying that I am blindly following Joe/David's projections? Obviously I am not given this thread to try to understand what could possibly be in their head to project the GB D so high. Any constructive thoughts?
Z
There's one very important fact to remember when we discuss how Green Bay's defense did last year.Green Bay had the most turnovers in the league last year. Outside of New Orleans aka Baton Rouge aka San Antonio aka the New York Saints, no other franchise was even close. Remember that turnovers result in shorter fields, which result in more points being scored AGAINST the defense.The average starting point for GB's opponents' drives was the 34.57 yard line- worst in the league. That was a result of all those turnovers. If Green Bay improves in that category even slightly, I don't think its unreasonable at all to expect its defense to improve significantly from last season, not even considering the influx of talent.
lord_helmet
Footballguy
If the GB offense are going to be as horrible as everyone seems to think, the D will be seeing the field ALOT
Even the best defense will wear down late in games if they spend too much time on the field
Even the best defense will wear down late in games if they spend too much time on the field
Very good and important point. Green Bay's defensive success is going to be inextricably linked to its offensive success.
Great info SSOG on average opposing offense starting point and very valid points on GB D being strongly tied to the GB O. That's what I initially though too but take a look at Joe/David's projections for the GB offense and they are just as hidious as last year -- Favre with more INTs than TDs, only 1,400 total rushing yards, blah, blah, etc.I must be missing something. This shouldn't be such a mystery.
Z
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Well, they have
Pickett (Perhaps the most sough after DT in FA)
A.J. Hawk (Considered the most NFL-ready defender in the draft)
Abdul Hodge (Has looked as good as Hawk in preseason)
Charles Woodson (Even a faded Woodson is much better than Highway 28)
Marquand Manual (Starter in the Super Bowl for the Seahawks)
And much better depth. I mean that's 4 of 11 new starters that are all upgrades. What more do you want to convince you?
Pickett (Perhaps the most sough after DT in FA)
A.J. Hawk (Considered the most NFL-ready defender in the draft)
Abdul Hodge (Has looked as good as Hawk in preseason)
Charles Woodson (Even a faded Woodson is much better than Highway 28)
Marquand Manual (Starter in the Super Bowl for the Seahawks)
And much better depth. I mean that's 4 of 11 new starters that are all upgrades. What more do you want to convince you?
northwoods
Footballguy
They play the Bears, Vikings and Lions twice every year. Lots of opportunities for turnovers against all those teams.
Also, the Pack only play 4 playoff teams from last year(or 4 games against playoff teams from last year)
Bob Henry
Footballguy
We often use the terms "addition by subtraction". I'm not saying this is the case, but there's also the converse - "subtraction by addition". Hawk is obviously a great addition, but by all accounts he's not setting it on fire so far.. It will take time for him to get up to NFL speed and dominate... assuming he does. That's not a slam dunk either, regardless of his collegiate resumeChuck Woodson? As much as I love the guy for his past accomplishments at UofM, he might as well put a big target on his chest these days. He was abused by Palmer in the preseason and I suspect he'll never be a shutdown corner --- and one can argue successfully that he never really was in the NFL.Hodge - another rookie. Great instincts, but still a rookie with a learning curve.Pickett - solid talent, big guy, but not a slam dunk either. Is he any better than Grady Jackson? Perhaps, but not by a lot..The good thing is the Lions, Bears and Vikings offenses could be decent, but more than likely will be average at best. The Lions could be a surprise with Martz calling the shots and the Vikings with Childress. If you trust what your eyes tell you.. then the Packers just haven't looked very tough defensively. Sure they are playing basic defense and not game planning or getting into the schemes they'll use in the regular season. Perhaps the biggest thing that would help the Packers defense would be a big improvement in their running game. If Ahman is truly back and their rookie guards can get the job done, then that would be a tremendous boost... but that's a lot of IFs.In terms of FF scoring, depending on your league, DSTs and kickers tend to have the most fluctuation from year to year. There are always teams that EVERYONE has pegged to be top 5 and bottom 5 that produce just the opposite as their predictions. Maybe the Packers will do that, but right now .. I'd have to say it's a long shot.
Hairy Snowman
Footballguy
Defenses are like a house of cards - pull one card (ie leave one hole) and the whole house comes down. I agree they will be better, I just don't think it will show on paper yet.
What more do I need to convince me? More than a couple nice FA pickups, a couple of rookies, and a never-was added to the team.Do YOU think they are going to go from 25th to top 10 (like Joe & David) ?? Didn't think so.Z
Ahh, Bob, thanks for the response and you are getting to my point. With the lack 2006 impactful additions (2 rookies, 2 FAs, a has-been before he's been), an SOS that is not much different than last years, and offensive projections the same or worse than last year, it shows that Joe/David's projection of the GB D to be top 10 is a total and obsolute shot in the dark.Don't get me wrong, I like a shot in the dark like the rest of us but when you are the only guy shooting, it's called Russian Roulette.Z
Not quite, Harry. I think the top 6 defenses have been in the top 8 4 out of the last 5 years (PIT, BAL, CAR, TB, IND, CHI).
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Charles Woodson on one leg is better than Ahmad Carroll. They don't call him Highway 28 for nothing. He's the worst starting corner in the NFL. He's absolutely worthless.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Hey, Tooth, not that my mind is made up, rather, I am searching for an intelligent reason why somebody would possible think that the GB D could go up from 25th to Top 10 in one year with NO meaningful change in their schedule nor their offense and personnel changes that will impact the future more than this year.As Bob alluded to, if it is a shot in the dark, that's OK -- it just seems a bit odd, that's all.Z
Bob Henry
Footballguy
Surely, I can't and don't speak for David and Joe.. I'm sure they have their own reasons for ranking them higher. That's one of the great things about our staff and David & Joe - it gives us a platform for us all to provide our rankings and insights. None of you would want us all to be the same.
IIRC, the Packers DST performance last year was quite a bit higher than where nearly everyone expected. Of course, your mileage would vary depending on the scoring system used.
IIRC, the Packers DST performance last year was quite a bit higher than where nearly everyone expected. Of course, your mileage would vary depending on the scoring system used.
Agree and thanks. Just trying to understand the thinking behind an outlier -- just in case I missed something in doing my projections.
Big Score
Footballguy
I know all the pieces they've added, but Woodson is a shell of himself, Carroll is :X and the rooks, while I think they'll eventually be players, aren't there yet. remember that the rankings you see here are just peoples opinions. Nobody is right all the time. Use your own eyes and decide for yourself.
Green Bay's D is going to suck again this year.
Take advantage of this knowledge and invest in the Green Bay passing game.
Favre, Driver & yes, even the rook Jennings.
Bubba Franks will do Ok for TE mandatory leagues.
Maybe take a look see at their run game. Soft schedule...but man that O'line
Green Bay's D is going to suck again this year.
Take advantage of this knowledge and invest in the Green Bay passing game.
Favre, Driver & yes, even the rook Jennings.
Bubba Franks will do Ok for TE mandatory leagues.
Maybe take a look see at their run game. Soft schedule...but man that O'line
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
of course, at the same time, there isn't one position on the Offensive side of the field that isn't improved compared to last year...
Big Score
Footballguy
He was probably referring to the Pack's Run D.
Code:
|----- RUSHING -----| ATT YD YPA TD 504 2010 3.99 10 NFL rank ---> 27 23 18 8Big Score
Footballguy
Guess you haven't gotten a chance to see any of their pre season games and watch their O'line.
It's just as bad as last years version, if not worse. Hopefully they'll eventually jell, but right now... :X
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
uh... its the pre-season... get back to me in week 3 or 4 and we'll talk about how they are playing when the games matter... ok?besides, thier line was horrilbe AND hurt last year... and they still have the old starters from last year, but they have new players they feel are upgrades at a few positions... how are they going to be worse???Guess you haven't gotten a chance to see any of their pre season games and watch their O'line.
Bob Henry
Footballguy
You conveniently forgot QB... It would be tough to argue that Favre will be any better than last year. It would be easier to argue that, if anything, he's getting progressively worse. That doesn't bode well for a defense either. If your QB throws 20 or more INTs that shortens the field for the opponent's offense making it even more difficult on the defense to keep them in the game.I honestly don't know how any of the positions on offense are any better than last year. Maybe you could provide some evidence to support your stance? RB -> Ahman is back, so if anything, same as last year. FB -> Henderson is a year older and coming off an injury. WR -> Minus Javon Walker, added Greg Jennings. TE -> status qu
L -> draft picks added, I don't recall any significant FA additions. Not sure this is any better. 
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
RB - Ahman got hurt in what, week 4?FB - Henderson was hurt most of the yearWR - THEY WERE ALL HURT!!! Antonio Chatman was the #1 reciever last year... Driver, Jennings, Ferguson, all back all were out most of last year...TE - Franks was out most of the year... we were playing our #4 TE as the #1 for most of the year...OL - again, most of the guys who started the beginning of the year last year missed games, PLUS they are all here still and we added 3 rookie OL who are good, 2 starting... if they weren't better, the guys who started last year would be starting still since they are till on the team...You conveniently forgot QB... It would be tough to argue that Favre will be any better than last year. It would be easier to argue that, if anything, he's getting progressively worse. That doesn't bode well for a defense either. If your QB throws 20 or more INTs that shortens the field for the opponent's offense making it even more difficult on the defense to keep them in the game.I honestly don't know how any of the positions on offense are any better than last year. Maybe you could provide some evidence to support your stance? RB -> Ahman is back, so if anything, same as last year. FB -> Henderson is a year older and coming off an injury. WR -> Minus Javon Walker, added Greg Jennings. TE -> status qu
Big Score
Footballguy
I understand what you're saying about it only being pre season larry_boy_44, but that's a double edged sword.In pre season games, offenses are generally facing very vanilla D's.uh... its the pre-season... get back to me in week 3 or 4 and we'll talk about how they are playing when the games matter... ok?besides, thier line was horrilbe AND hurt last year... and they still have the old starters from last year, but they have new players they feel are upgrades at a few positions... how are they going to be worse???Guess you haven't gotten a chance to see any of their pre season games and watch their O'line.
Also no matter what you think about pre season games, when the Franchises starting QB is in there, the O'line blocks just like it's regular season.
Lastly Green Bay's new OC has brought an entirely new blocking scheme with him from Atlanta. The O'line holdovers are having to learn a completely new scheme as well as the rooks.
You're more than welcome to think what you want larry_boy_44, but right now, that O'line is just as bad as last years, if not worse.
Big Score
Footballguy
No offense intended, but you don't have a clue as to what you're talking about, do you larry_boy_44?
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
OK, so Driver and Favre both weren't hurt last year (I could have sworn that Driver was hurt for the last part of the season)...but everyone else was hurt...Big Score said:
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
I just don't see how the offense on the whole can be any worse than they were last year, to be honest about it...and the defense has better players and should be better than last year...I understand what you're saying about it only being pre season larry_boy_44, but that's a double edged sword.In pre season games, offenses are generally facing very vanilla D's.uh... its the pre-season... get back to me in week 3 or 4 and we'll talk about how they are playing when the games matter... ok?besides, thier line was horrilbe AND hurt last year... and they still have the old starters from last year, but they have new players they feel are upgrades at a few positions... how are they going to be worse???Guess you haven't gotten a chance to see any of their pre season games and watch their O'line.
Also no matter what you think about pre season games, when the Franchises starting QB is in there, the O'line blocks just like it's regular season.
Lastly Green Bay's new OC has brought an entirely new blocking scheme with him from Atlanta. The O'line holdovers are having to learn a completely new scheme as well as the rooks.
You're more than welcome to think what you want larry_boy_44, but right now, that O'line is just as bad as last years, if not worse.
top 10? Maybe not... but I do think they will improve... and they weren't #25 overall last year...
Big Score
Footballguy
Fair enough.I just don't see how the offense on the whole can be any worse than they were last year, to be honest about it...and the defense has better players and should be better than last year...I understand what you're saying about it only being pre season larry_boy_44, but that's a double edged sword.In pre season games, offenses are generally facing very vanilla D's.uh... its the pre-season... get back to me in week 3 or 4 and we'll talk about how they are playing when the games matter... ok?besides, thier line was horrilbe AND hurt last year... and they still have the old starters from last year, but they have new players they feel are upgrades at a few positions... how are they going to be worse???Guess you haven't gotten a chance to see any of their pre season games and watch their O'line.
Also no matter what you think about pre season games, when the Franchises starting QB is in there, the O'line blocks just like it's regular season.
Lastly Green Bay's new OC has brought an entirely new blocking scheme with him from Atlanta. The O'line holdovers are having to learn a completely new scheme as well as the rooks.
You're more than welcome to think what you want larry_boy_44, but right now, that O'line is just as bad as last years, if not worse.
top 10? Maybe not... but I do think they will improve... and they weren't #25 overall last year...
Kleck.
Footballguy
I'm not as high on the Green Bay defense as Dodds and Temblay are, but as the season goes on, and if they stay healthy, I could see their defense ending very strong. If your league heavily favors shutouts and/or holding teams to 7 or 14 points you may want to look eleswhere. If your league heavily favors INTs, FRs, and sacks, I think Green Bay could be in more of a middle tier and worth a gamble later on or a D/ST to keep an eye on.
It could be a rougher start since they do have a few new faces and some rookies, but by mid season I think they could be a good unit. To top it off, and where I see them posibly being a good value, is that they have a very nice schedule in December (Wk13 vs. NYJ, Wk14 @ SF, Wk15 vs. DET, Wk16 vs. MIN, and Wk 17 @ CHI). That's a pretty nice late season fantasy schedule and playoff schedule. I usually only carry one defense, but by mid season when I begin to prepare for playoff time, I will be looking to add another with some good matchups and Green Bay fits that well.
It could be a rougher start since they do have a few new faces and some rookies, but by mid season I think they could be a good unit. To top it off, and where I see them posibly being a good value, is that they have a very nice schedule in December (Wk13 vs. NYJ, Wk14 @ SF, Wk15 vs. DET, Wk16 vs. MIN, and Wk 17 @ CHI). That's a pretty nice late season fantasy schedule and playoff schedule. I usually only carry one defense, but by mid season when I begin to prepare for playoff time, I will be looking to add another with some good matchups and Green Bay fits that well.
According to the Footballguys very own scoring system, they were 25th last year (reference '05 final year stats). That is why I am wondering where the top 10 came from.Still baffledlarry_boy_44 said:I just don't see how the offense on the whole can be any worse than they were last year, to be honest about it...and the defense has better players and should be better than last year...Big Score said:I understand what you're saying about it only being pre season larry_boy_44, but that's a double edged sword.In pre season games, offenses are generally facing very vanilla D's.larry_boy_44 said:uh... its the pre-season... get back to me in week 3 or 4 and we'll talk about how they are playing when the games matter... ok?besides, thier line was horrilbe AND hurt last year... and they still have the old starters from last year, but they have new players they feel are upgrades at a few positions... how are they going to be worse???Big Score said:Guess you haven't gotten a chance to see any of their pre season games and watch their O'line.larry_boy_44 said:
Also no matter what you think about pre season games, when the Franchises starting QB is in there, the O'line blocks just like it's regular season.
Lastly Green Bay's new OC has brought an entirely new blocking scheme with him from Atlanta. The O'line holdovers are having to learn a completely new scheme as well as the rooks.
You're more than welcome to think what you want larry_boy_44, but right now, that O'line is just as bad as last years, if not worse.
top 10? Maybe not... but I do think they will improve... and they weren't #25 overall last year...
Z
Believe it or not, the SOS against DET, MIN, and CHI is abot average. Also, what motivation is a team going to have to play stout defense when they only have 4 wins, they have absolutely no hope for the playoffs, and their offense has left them out to dry all year long?ZKleck said:
