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Has the cure become worse than the disease? (2 Viewers)

Has the cure become worse than the disease?

  • Yes

    Votes: 55 23.3%

  • No

    Votes: 159 67.4%

  • Undecided

    Votes: 22 9.3%
  • Total voters
    236
GoBirds said:
If you are going to put responsibility or deaths on people as you did on page 1 it seems you would have a more detailed plan is all. I’m not sure what you are mentioning is even legal? We all want more testing, as it’s a main talking point in here I was just curious if there was any plan of realistic execution if you want everything shuttered for the time being. I think I got my answer, have a good one. 
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Take it up with the medical community.

 
So what I’m gathering from some in this thread is if it’s hard we shouldn’t try.  Gotta love that American can do spirit.  

I thought the Trump thread said we have a great leader in charge, like the best since Lincoln.  Yeah now that I think back about it when Lincoln was faced with making the decision to free the slaves he too agreed it was just too hard and didn’t try.  

 
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So basically a few people in here would rather let people die so they can preserve their way of life as opposed to everyone having to sacrifice a little and work a little harder to get back what we had? 

 
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Based on your laughing response @GoBirds I know I agree.  It’s funny to think there are Americans who think that because something is important but hard (like testing for a pandemic virus that shut the country down) we shouldn’t try.  

 
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msudaisy26 said:
So basically a few people in here would rather let people die so they can preserve their way of life as opposed to everyone having to sacrifice a little and work a little harder to get back what we had? 
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I’m actually netting up huge here...this thread has very little to do with me.  
 

I’m only concerned with  the actual well being of the country...and the world.  We can’t go on with shelter in place without consequences far more dire than Coronavirus deaths.

 
I would think that getting a test to help open things up would be a cinch compared to sitting home and not getting paid while watching the economy burn. If we develop the tests and the capabilities, I don’t  see the issue. Is it really because it’s more of a “left” talking point? 

 
Mr Anonymous said:
We don't usually blink at things that kill 40,000 people either. If we hit 60K on this, it will equal a really bad flu season. That's not saying this is the equivalent of the flu in terms of danger. This is clearly more contagious if not more deadly if contracted. You tell me why something that rarely kills young, healthy people has made us so powerless to common sense combative measures.
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There is no question that we area already well past 60K, in reality. We have about 40K deaths attributed to COVID-19, so far. And approximately 2,000 people are dying a day from it, right now.

But we know from past experience, that contemporaneously reported figures undershoot substantially. During the swine flu pandemic, epidemiological modeling after the fact told us that the best estimate of the true death toll was 7x what was reported in real time. In this case I would expect the multiplier to be much lower because COVID has garnered far more attention, but it is still going to be some multiple (1.5x? 2x? 3x?) what is being reported on a daily basis, when all is said and done. 

 
TripItUp said:
I’m actually netting up huge here...this thread has very little to do with me.  
 

I’m only concerned with  the actual well being of the country...and the world.  We can’t go on with shelter in place without consequences far more dire than Coronavirus deaths.
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It has been 6 weeks roughly. If the richest country in the history of the planet can't handle a few month shutdown, then maybe we aren't as rich and great as we like to believe we are. 

 
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Man In The Box said:
I would think that getting a test to help open things up would be a cinch compared to sitting home and not getting paid while watching the economy burn. If we develop the tests and the capabilities, I don’t  see the issue. Is it really because it’s more of a “left” talking point? 
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It isn't even a "left" talking point, it's the scientific talking point.

 
TripItUp said:
I’m actually netting up huge here...this thread has very little to do with me.  
 

I’m only concerned with  the actual well being of the country...and the world.  We can’t go on with shelter in place without consequences far more dire than Coronavirus deaths.
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While there’s no question we should get things open again, and I’m not fundamentally arguing that, how do you know the bolded? Especially when we don’t know what it looks like without a shelter in place or what the death could/would have been. 

 
Gather massive testing data. If the data supports it, proceed cautiously in a manner that is in sync with health care system capabilities and sound science. We can start that now and I'm guessing that this is what most want because it protects health and gets us moving towards economic recovery. Why is the first thing such a problem for some (with derogatory "talking point" labels being thrown around). Is flying blind somehow preferable? Until a vaccine is readily available we need to be testing and re-testing our butts off. 

 
Mr Anonymous said:
95% of the country is under some sort of stay at home. Of which a very large number cannot WFH. A vast majority of Americans carry less than $500 in their bank accounts. I'm sorry you can't comprehend how dramatically this is affecting millions of people. Then again I'm not surprised. The people in those living circumstances don't typically spend a lot of time on hobby message forums. 
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I comprehend the dramatic affect. What I don't comprehend is why you keep using hyperbole. 

 
dkp993 said:
Based on your laughing response @GoBirds I know I agree.  It’s funny to think there are Americans who think that because something is important but hard (like testing for a pandemic virus that shut the country down) we shouldn’t try.  
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I’m just loving your attempt to reframe things to meet you agenda, it’s hilarious.  :lmao:

 
Mr Anonymous said:
And which part do you consider an exaggeration? I'd love to hear this.
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The bolded below:

Mr Anonymous said:
And all that math is without the added common sense measures we could we doing and will be embracing going forward. Like I said, this requires more than simply riding it out and accepting losses. But blanket shut down of society is not the appropriate response for a sustained period if it leads to different death and suffering.
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There is no blanket shutdown of society. Some states don't even have lockdowns. And in states where there are lockdowns, each state has drawn different lines of what jobs are allowed and which one are not, and even in these states most jobs are still working because they are deemed by the state to be essential. 

There is good discussion about redrawing those lines in each state. Calling it a blanket shutdown doesn't help those discussions at all. You can't have a productive discussion of what should be changed when you're not even recognizing the reality of where we are. 

 
Death Bytes said:
The bolded below:

There is no blanket shutdown of society. Some states don't even have lockdowns. And in states where there are lockdowns, each state has drawn different lines of what jobs are allowed and which one are not, and even in these states most jobs are still working because they are deemed by the state to be essential. 

There is good discussion about redrawing those lines in each state. Calling it a blanket shutdown doesn't help those discussions at all. You can't have a productive discussion of what should be changed when you're not even recognizing the reality of where we are. 
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Other than a few forward thinking places, the extent of the combative measures has been stay at home and stay 6 feet from each other in public. Not exactly the sophistication we'll need to tackle both issues at hand - the virus and the livelihood of Americans. I'm not one of those who thinks we can't tackle both at the same time. Maybe I'm not a defeatist.

 
Mr Anonymous said:
Other than a few forward thinking places, the extent of the combative measures has been stay at home and stay 6 feet from each other in public. Not exactly the sophistication we'll need to tackle both issues at hand - the virus and the livelihood of Americans. I'm not one of those who thinks we can't tackle both at the same time. Maybe I'm not a defeatist.
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We ARE tackling both at the same time. Again the discussion is about moving the line of business that is allowed and business that is not. 

 
TripItUp said:
I’m actually netting up huge here...this thread has very little to do with me.  
 

I’m only concerned with  the actual well being of the country...and the world.  We can’t go on with shelter in place without consequences far more dire than Coronavirus deaths.
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I totally agree with you, what are your thoughts on when we transition back? I’m thinking it needs to be within the next month for the majority of states. 

 
TripItUp said:
Would you trade 22 million jobs for 1 life?
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I would...no question...and twice on Sunday if it were a family member.  Our lack of respect for human life is getting kind of disgusting.  And I'll get crucified here for saying this, but I don't see much of a moral difference between those rationalizing away the life of a baby and those rationalizing away the life of older people.  

 
The Commish said:
I would...no question...and twice on Sunday if it were a family member.  Our lack of respect for human life is getting kind of disgusting.  And I'll get crucified here for saying this, but I don't see much of a moral difference between those rationalizing away the life of a baby and those rationalizing away the life of older people.  
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Oof. 22 million lost jobs will directly lead to more than 1 death each and every time. Simply stunning how that's missed here.

 
If people think COVID-19 killed a lot of people, just thing of how many another Great Depression will take out.

There is a balance here.  I know there are people who are actively rooting for America to fail so they can install some Socialist regime, but we cannot take out the largest economy in the world for too long.  If that Great Depression hits, these same people who called for us stay closed even longer are going to turn 180 degrees and blame Trump for not opening up the economy sooner (even though it's mostly the states who have a great control over this).

Anything to get Trump, I guess.

At this point, we can't risk our economy much longer.

 
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Mr Anonymous said:
Oof. 22 million lost jobs will directly lead to more than 1 death each and every time. Simply stunning how that's missed here.
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who missed it?

And it should be obvious that I completely reject, in a vacuum (as you state here) that a lost job is going to cost a person their life in 99.999999999% of the cases).  It can certainly be part of the laundry list of factors, but rarely will it be THE factor.

 
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TripItUp said:
I’m actually netting up huge here...this thread has very little to do with me.  
 

I’m only concerned with  the actual well being of the country...and the world.  We can’t go on with shelter in place without consequences far more dire than Coronavirus deaths.
Click to expand...
What is open in your scenario?  Restaurants? Sports? Concerts? Night Clubs? Casinos? Recreational/business travel?  

How many deaths would it take for you to consider opening a negative? 

What if opening results in a second, more severe quarantine, and greater damage to the economy?

It seems like a lot of people think it's a simple trade of a few lives for economic recovery.  But that's the best case scenario.  There are some really ugly scenarios that need to be considered when any opening is discussed.  Also, is a partial opening even worth while?  You maintain social distancing and everything runs at 25%, while still leaving a chance open for a large increase in infections, once again leading to another shutdown.  

This isn't as simple as "protect the vulnerable."  That isn't realistic.  You have to be prepared for some very ugly numbers when you consider how this things spread.

To me, I don't think the benefits outweigh the negatives at this point, but to be honest, I don't know how long you can wait either.  If it's going to be 18 months, do you just say f it, and pray the worst is behind us?  Anyone pretending to know what the right answer is is fooling themselves.  There is huge risk either way.    

 
Zigg said:
What is open in your scenario?  Restaurants? Sports? Concerts? Night Clubs? Casinos? Recreational/business travel?  

How many deaths would it take for you to consider opening a negative? 

What if opening results in a second, more severe quarantine, and greater damage to the economy?

It seems like a lot of people think it's a simple trade of a few lives for economic recovery.  But that's the best case scenario.  There are some really ugly scenarios that need to be considered when any opening is discussed.  Also, is a partial opening even worth while?  You maintain social distancing and everything runs at 25%, while still leaving a chance open for a large increase in infections, once again leading to another shutdown.  

This isn't as simple as "protect the vulnerable."  That isn't realistic.  You have to be prepared for some very ugly numbers when you consider how this things spread.

To me, I don't think the benefits outweigh the negatives at this point, but to be honest, I don't know how long you can wait either.  If it's going to be 18 months, do you just say f it, and pray the worst is behind us?  Anyone pretending to know what the right answer is is fooling themselves.  There is huge risk either way.    
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You'll have to be prepared for some very ugly numbers from a 2nd Great Depression.  COVID-19 deaths would pale in comparison to what a 2nd Great Depression could bring.

Are you willing to accept those numbers?

 
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KarmaPolice said:
:shrug:

There are stipulations to working where I am at.  Why couldn't a covid test be one of them? 
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I’m open to it, just don’t see how it can realistically be implemented and if so imagine the timeframe to coordinate enforcement at private business, public business, unemployed etc. 

I’m all for as much testing as we can come up with in the next month or so but the focus also needs to start turning towards working through the phases to reopen and finding out new normal. 

 
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These arguments are really off the mark here since it doesn't seem that you have considered the economic impact of staying "open"

Let's say now it's millions who have died, its spread far wider into communities that are in otherwise good shape right now.

Really can't imagine business as usual in the least bit.  It's not like travel all of a sudden was going to be booming again. There will also be many more than now, afraid to go out in public. 

Can't see the recovery being any quicker either.

Feel like this is a dumb path to go down because all it seems to do is pretend the effect without mitigation is what we are experiencing right now, when we know that's not the case.

 
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BladeRunner said:
You'll have to be prepared for some very ugly numbers from a 2nd Great Depression.  COVID-19 deaths would pale in comparison to what a 2nd Great Depression could bring.

Are you willing to accept those numbers?
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Natural disasters do suck. But to think the economy won't suffer from it anyway if we just get back to work is ignorant. A 2nd Great Depression is probably unavoidable unless we develop medical advances to fight this virus soon.   

 
BladeRunner said:
You'll have to be prepared for some very ugly numbers from a 2nd Great Depression.  COVID-19 deaths would pale in comparison to what a 2nd Great Depression could bring.

Are you willing to accept those numbers?
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As I’ve said many times, there are no good answers here.  This is a massive #### sandwich we are all having to eat.  But I keep hearing what you’ve said here as an argument to move forward and I keep asking but get no response.... But how do you know this? 2000 people a day are dying right now in the US even after all that we’ve done so far. 2000 a day!

 
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Pretty much all 50 states require children to have certain vaccinations before they can attend school. How would testing for Covid be any different? 

I will add that there are certain waivers for allergies and such. 

 
Seeing how this administration has worked in the past I am skeptical they want us to ramp up testing. Doing so could see many states result in positive cases going up and keep states from opening up our economy. So their strategy just might be to say we are testing many even though we are not just to control the narrative. 

 
dkp993 said:
As I’ve said many times, there are no good answers here.  This is a massive #### sandwich we are all having to eat.  But I keep hearing what you’ve said here as an argument to move forward and I keep asking but get no response.... But how do you know this? 2000 people a day are dying right now in the US even after all that we’ve done so far. 2000 a day!
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And from what I can see those numbers are going down.

What does anyone know?  Here in my State they were predicting up to 20K to 30K dead.   We've had like 200.  So while we shouldn't do nothing, completely shutting down our economy based on exaggerated numbers seems like folly. 

No one knows what the future will hold so all we can do is estimate.  Do you really think a 2nd Great Depression wouldn't be as bad as COVID-19?

 
BladeRunner said:
And from what I can see those numbers are going down.

What does anyone know?  Here in my State they were predicting up to 20K to 30K dead.   We've had like 200.  So while we shouldn't do nothing, completely shutting down our economy based on exaggerated numbers seems like folly. 

No one knows what the future will hold so all we can do is estimate.  Do you really think a 2nd Great Depression wouldn't be as bad as COVID-19?
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In terms of death? No I don't. 

 
BladeRunner said:
And from what I can see those numbers are going down.

What does anyone know?  Here in my State they were predicting up to 20K to 30K dead.   We've had like 200.  So while we shouldn't do nothing, completely shutting down our economy based on exaggerated numbers seems like folly. 

No one knows what the future will hold so all we can do is estimate.  Do you really think a 2nd Great Depression wouldn't be as bad as COVID-19?
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I have no clue, and I’m not being argumentative just to be clear.  I’m just trying to figure it and am trying to understand how people are coming up with the numbers to decide one way or another.  

You’re right the numbers are likely to be coming down, but that’s solely due to our current actions.  What they could have been (or will be again?) once we change our current lock down behavior is really unknown.  As is what a GD2 damage would be.

Both are awful, and how we reconcile either is a question we will wrestle with for decades I imagine.  

 
msudaisy26 said:
A little different when talking about blood pressure, cholesterol, BMI etc which only affect that person health wise. Not a pandemic that is easily transmitted from person to person. 
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Sure and there may be angles to take on this but as seen in link these companies hoping to survive will be opening themselves up to litigation(unless laws change). Time is of the essence and the “employers should just make them” isn’t reality in our country. At least not without a legal mess, but it sounds good. 

 
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