HBO - Song of Ice&Fire Series -Varsity Thread - no TV only whiners (3 Viewers)

[Psychopav]

If you (no on in particular) read all the books why even post in the TV thread? I'd much rather discuss here and not have to worry about anything possible being a spoiler.

I did only once, and I was actually trying to help them think that what flysack posted wasn't a spoiler. They obviously don't even want that, so no more for me.

That's WIFOM, Shuke, and would be put to better use in a nice game of Werewolf.

 

[Gnat Berries]

Can't Varys and Illyrio be seen as House Targ loyalists? i.e. putting the Targs back on the throne is the goal, and not the means to an end?

While I think in the short run, Varys is a Targ loyalist, he does ultimately want to serve the realm as well.

If he just thought putting a Targ back on the throne served the realm, there's no way he would have worked to get Viscerys on the throne back in Book I. That guy was destined to be The Mad King Part Deux, which would just incite another revolt eventually. So, in this regard, yea Varys is a Targ loyalist.

BUT I think he really wants to serve the realm because I suspect that Varys knows about The Song of Fire and Ice, and like Maestor Aemon, mistook Viscerys as "the prince that was promised." I suspect that all of Varys attempts to strengthen the realm under a Targ rule is because he knows that prophecy is about to happen, i.e. he knows the only way Westeros will survive what's coming is for foretold Targ Prince of Fire to come, unite the realm, and beat the white walkers.

Granted, there's zero textual proof of Varys knowing about the prophecy. It's just speculation on my part. But it makes a lot of sense, and I wouldn't be surprised to see his knowledge of the prophecy revealed in Winds of Winter.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Why are they fighting over westeros, instead of taking over the rest of the world?

 

[Gnat Berries]

I also agree with the overriding Varys/Littlefinger opposition. It's a central theme in the books - Varys = selflessness and compassion and Littlefinger = selfishness and power hunger.

Even when Varys kills someone (like Ser Kevan), he's full of regret and compassion. "I'm sorry this hurts but it must be done..." etc. His attempts save Shae is another act of compassion. There are limits to what he can do, but he does act out of selflessness more often than we give him credit for.

Littlefinger, on the other hand, is an evil selfish mofo would regrets nothing unless it backfires in his face. He cares only about himself and will betray anyone who gets in his path. The exception, perhaps, is Sansa and Cat.....to a point. But that's only because of his boyhood love for Cat, and he's admitted it's his secret weakness.

 

[Thunderlips]

In the year 2055 when Martin gets done writing....it'd be nice if he did a little novella (800 pages) from the POV of Littlefinger. Man, to get inside that guys head.

 

[Sabertooth]

I like most of the characters in the book. Exceptions are Sansa and Cercei.

 

[Thunderlips]

I like most of the characters in the book. Exceptions are Sansa and Cercei.

I do think that Cersei's walk of shame will be an awesome part of the televison show.

 

[Gnat Berries]

In the year 2055 when Martin gets done writing....it'd be nice if he did a little novella (800 pages) from the POV of Littlefinger. Man, to get inside that guys head.

I think it's more interesting not knowing. Getting inside his head would be boring, unless a guy named Milton wrote it.

I would like a couple novels on Aegon conquering Westeros. That'd be good

ETA: Especially if it starts in Valyeria, so we can see The Doom and learn what was so special about House Targ that they were the only ones to escape.

 

[sn0mm1s]

I also agree with the overriding Varys/Littlefinger opposition. It's a central theme in the books - Varys = selflessness and compassion and Littlefinger = selfishness and power hunger.

Even when Varys kills someone (like Ser Kevan), he's full of regret and compassion. "I'm sorry this hurts but it must be done..." etc. His attempts save Shae is another act of compassion. There are limits to what he can do, but he does act out of selflessness more often than we give him credit for.

Littlefinger, on the other hand, is an evil selfish mofo would regrets nothing unless it backfires in his face. He cares only about himself and will betray anyone who gets in his path. The exception, perhaps, is Sansa and Cat.....to a point. But that's only because of his boyhood love for Cat, and he's admitted it's his secret weakness.

I don't think it is selflessness at all. Varys grew up a thief and stealer of secrets. He has an end game and I doubt it is the "good of the realm". He knows about Jaime and Cersei and their kids, he knows who poisoned Jon Arryn, he likely knows that Littlefinger lied to Catelyn about the dagger being his. The "good of the realm" would be to support Tywin or Ned Stark as king - but he doesn't do that. He has been scheming for over a decade (well before anyone knew anything about The Others or dragons). I don't think we know *what* Varys' endgame is.

 

[Gnat Berries]

I like most of the characters in the book. Exceptions are Sansa and Cercei.

I do think that Cersei's walk of shame will be an awesome part of the televison show.

Lena Heady doesn't get enough credit for being one of the hottest women over 40. She is absolutely smoking in her Cersei wig and digs. Like Halle Berry levels of bonerdom.

 

[strykerpks]

Question: What does Littlefinger gain from assassinating Joffery?

Is it just the perversity of forcing Sansa (a younger model Cat) to flee with him for fear of her life?

I think he's enjoying forcing her to do that, but that;s just a fun little side effect of his grand scheme. Dude is probably the smartest character in the book. no idea what he's got planned. I was actually happy when he killed Lady Arryn. She was annoying

He wants to rule - he wants to become king - or at least the greatest/most powerful Lord. We know he is already preparing for Daenerys to come to Westeros (he got a bunch of Targaryen tapestries from King's Landing to impress her).

Littlefinger gains chaos from assassinating Joffrey. The more the realm is in turmoil the more the status quo can be changed. Killing Jon Arryn and then implicating Tyrion has brought about the fall of House Baratheon, Tully, Stark, Arryn, and now Lannister isn't looking all that great either. Littlefinger went from the lowest Lord to ruling the Riverlands *and* the Vale.

I am convinced that he is the one that planted the seed that Joffrey should take Ned Stark's head. I am also pretty certain that he is the one that placed the Faceless man in the dungeon (to kill Ned in the Black Cells or on the road to The Wall if Joffrey didn't go through with it or was stopped).

Can I get a refresher here? Are you talking about Jaquen? Was it known he was there until Arya was on her way north?

 

[Gnat Berries]

I also agree with the overriding Varys/Littlefinger opposition. It's a central theme in the books - Varys = selflessness and compassion and Littlefinger = selfishness and power hunger.

Even when Varys kills someone (like Ser Kevan), he's full of regret and compassion. "I'm sorry this hurts but it must be done..." etc. His attempts save Shae is another act of compassion. There are limits to what he can do, but he does act out of selflessness more often than we give him credit for.

Littlefinger, on the other hand, is an evil selfish mofo would regrets nothing unless it backfires in his face. He cares only about himself and will betray anyone who gets in his path. The exception, perhaps, is Sansa and Cat.....to a point. But that's only because of his boyhood love for Cat, and he's admitted it's his secret weakness.

I don't think it is selflessness at all. Varys grew up a thief and stealer of secrets. He has an end game and I doubt it is the "good of the realm". He knows about Jaime and Cersei and their kids, he knows who poisoned Jon Arryn, he likely knows that Littlefinger lied to Catelyn about the dagger being his. The "good of the realm" would be to support Tywin or Ned Stark as king - but he doesn't do that. He has been scheming for over a decade (well before anyone knew anything about The Others or dragons). I don't think we know *what* Varys' endgame is.

A King Tywin or Ned would make it exceedingly difficult for a Targ to conquer Westeros. A Joffery or Cersei? Easier. Much easier.

ETA: which is also why he whacks Ser Kevan Lannister.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

I also agree with the overriding Varys/Littlefinger opposition. It's a central theme in the books - Varys = selflessness and compassion and Littlefinger = selfishness and power hunger.

Even when Varys kills someone (like Ser Kevan), he's full of regret and compassion. "I'm sorry this hurts but it must be done..." etc. His attempts save Shae is another act of compassion. There are limits to what he can do, but he does act out of selflessness more often than we give him credit for.

Littlefinger, on the other hand, is an evil selfish mofo would regrets nothing unless it backfires in his face. He cares only about himself and will betray anyone who gets in his path. The exception, perhaps, is Sansa and Cat.....to a point. But that's only because of his boyhood love for Cat, and he's admitted it's his secret weakness.

I don't think it is selflessness at all. Varys grew up a thief and stealer of secrets. He has an end game and I doubt it is the "good of the realm". He knows about Jaime and Cersei and their kids, he knows who poisoned Jon Arryn, he likely knows that Littlefinger lied to Catelyn about the dagger being his. The "good of the realm" would be to support Tywin or Ned Stark as king - but he doesn't do that. He has been scheming for over a decade (well before anyone knew anything about The Others or dragons). I don't think we know *what* Varys' endgame is.

With that said, I'm sure there's a ton of speculation that somehow Varys and Little Finger are working together in some capacity

 

[Psychopav]

Say...

Even when Varys kills someone (like Ser Kevan), he's full of regret and compassion...His attempts save Shae is another act of compassion. There are limits to what he can do, but he does act out of selflessness more often than we give him credit for.

Littlefinger, on the other hand, is an evil selfish mofo would regrets nothing unless it backfires in his face. He cares only about himself and will betray anyone who gets in his path.

Well, never mind. Too easy...

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

I also agree with the overriding Varys/Littlefinger opposition. It's a central theme in the books - Varys = selflessness and compassion and Littlefinger = selfishness and power hunger.

Even when Varys kills someone (like Ser Kevan), he's full of regret and compassion. "I'm sorry this hurts but it must be done..." etc. His attempts save Shae is another act of compassion. There are limits to what he can do, but he does act out of selflessness more often than we give him credit for.

Littlefinger, on the other hand, is an evil selfish mofo would regrets nothing unless it backfires in his face. He cares only about himself and will betray anyone who gets in his path. The exception, perhaps, is Sansa and Cat.....to a point. But that's only because of his boyhood love for Cat, and he's admitted it's his secret weakness.

I don't think it is selflessness at all. Varys grew up a thief and stealer of secrets. He has an end game and I doubt it is the "good of the realm". He knows about Jaime and Cersei and their kids, he knows who poisoned Jon Arryn, he likely knows that Littlefinger lied to Catelyn about the dagger being his. The "good of the realm" would be to support Tywin or Ned Stark as king - but he doesn't do that. He has been scheming for over a decade (well before anyone knew anything about The Others or dragons). I don't think we know *what* Varys' endgame is.

A King Tywin or Ned would make it exceedingly difficult for a Targ to conquer Westeros. A Joffery or Cersei? Easier. Much easier.

ETA: which is also why he whacks Ser Kevan Lannister.

Definitely agree here. I somewhat buy his "good of the realm" motivation, it just seems that to him it involves a Targaryan ultimately on the throne.

I think of Balish and Varys as a pair of opposites. Balish is chaos, Varys is order.

 

[sn0mm1s]

Can I get a refresher here? Are you talking about Jaquen? Was it known he was there until Arya was on her way north?

Well, we know Jaqen was in the Black Cells at the same time as Ned since Yoren said that is where he got Jaqen, Rorge, and Biter from.

Here is where the theory starts:

Faceless men are the world's premiere assassins. From what we have seen of Arya's training and Jaqen's abilities it seems highly unlikely that he was just caught and tossed in the dungeon. It seems far more likely that he was put there for a reason.

Going off of that premise - who would be Jaqen's potential target? The only person in the dungeons would be Ned. Also, the plan for Ned once he confessed to being a traitor was to go to The Wall with Yoren - so Jaqen is perfectly placed there as well. So - who wants Ned dead and who has had contact with Faceless men? Littlefinger.

Littlefinger hates the Starks - has for a long time. We also know that Littlefinger has approached/had dealings with the Faceless men (he talks about their prices when the Small Council is discussing killing Dany). We also know that Littlefinger's family was initially from Braavos (where the Faceless men reside). On top of that we know that Littlefinger wants chaos. Assuming that Littlefinger wants Ned dead it seems likely that he is the one that influenced Joffrey to execute him (and might have told Slynt since we know Slynt didn't hesitate when Joff called for Ned's head). However, if Cersei, or Varys, or anyone prevented the execution from happening - he has the backup plan of Jaqen going to The Wall. Jaqen is also very skilled about making deaths look like accidents. I wouldn't be surprised if Ned's death was to look like an accident or to look like a Lannister killed him.

This would also explain Jaqen knowing who Arya was when he came across her in the Harrenhal godswood.

 

[strykerpks]

Wow, thanks. I guess I never put two and two together that Jaquen would have been in prison with Ned...let alone for what purpose. Interesting theory.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

Can I get a refresher here? Are you talking about Jaquen? Was it known he was there until Arya was on her way north?

Well, we know Jaqen was in the Black Cells at the same time as Ned since Yoren said that is where he got Jaqen, Rorge, and Biter from.

Here is where the theory starts:

Faceless men are the world's premiere assassins. From what we have seen of Arya's training and Jaqen's abilities it seems highly unlikely that he was just caught and tossed in the dungeon. It seems far more likely that he was put there for a reason.

Going off of that premise - who would be Jaqen's potential target? The only person in the dungeons would be Ned. Also, the plan for Ned once he confessed to being a traitor was to go to The Wall with Yoren - so Jaqen is perfectly placed there as well. So - who wants Ned dead and who has had contact with Faceless men? Littlefinger.

Littlefinger hates the Starks - has for a long time. We also know that Littlefinger has approached/had dealings with the Faceless men (he talks about their prices when the Small Council is discussing killing Dany). We also know that Littlefinger's family was initially from Braavos (where the Faceless men reside). On top of that we know that Littlefinger wants chaos. Assuming that Littlefinger wants Ned dead it seems likely that he is the one that influenced Joffrey to execute him (and might have told Slynt since we know Slynt didn't hesitate when Joff called for Ned's head). However, if Cersei, or Varys, or anyone prevented the execution from happening - he has the backup plan of Jaqen going to The Wall. Jaqen is also very skilled about making deaths look like accidents. I wouldn't be surprised if Ned's death was to look like an accident or to look like a Lannister killed him.

This would also explain Jaqen knowing who Arya was when he came across her in the Harrenhal godswood.

I dont recall this exchange? Can you link it please?

 

[sn0mm1s]

I also agree with the overriding Varys/Littlefinger opposition. It's a central theme in the books - Varys = selflessness and compassion and Littlefinger = selfishness and power hunger.

Even when Varys kills someone (like Ser Kevan), he's full of regret and compassion. "I'm sorry this hurts but it must be done..." etc. His attempts save Shae is another act of compassion. There are limits to what he can do, but he does act out of selflessness more often than we give him credit for.

Littlefinger, on the other hand, is an evil selfish mofo would regrets nothing unless it backfires in his face. He cares only about himself and will betray anyone who gets in his path. The exception, perhaps, is Sansa and Cat.....to a point. But that's only because of his boyhood love for Cat, and he's admitted it's his secret weakness.

I don't think it is selflessness at all. Varys grew up a thief and stealer of secrets. He has an end game and I doubt it is the "good of the realm". He knows about Jaime and Cersei and their kids, he knows who poisoned Jon Arryn, he likely knows that Littlefinger lied to Catelyn about the dagger being his. The "good of the realm" would be to support Tywin or Ned Stark as king - but he doesn't do that. He has been scheming for over a decade (well before anyone knew anything about The Others or dragons). I don't think we know *what* Varys' endgame is.

A King Tywin or Ned would make it exceedingly difficult for a Targ to conquer Westeros. A Joffery or Cersei? Easier. Much easier.

ETA: which is also why he whacks Ser Kevan Lannister.

Yeah... but why would he want a Targ on the throne? The initial plan was for Viserys to gain the throne through the use of Khal Drogo's khalasar. Viserys was as spiteful and cruel as Joffrey. Even Ser Barristan says that Viserys was his father's son to Dany. On top of that - it is generally thought that Tywin was the reason the realm was prosperous during the Mad King's rule. Who would be better Viserys or Robert? I think the answer hands down is Robert. Now, this is assuming that Aegon wasn't the endgame (Viserys to start the war and have Aegon show up with the better claim). If Aegon was the goal the entire time then maybe the "good of the realm" idea holds water *but* that would still require war across all of Westeros for an uncertain outcome.

Also, it was Jaime who stopped the pyromancers from burning down King's Landing when we can assume that Varys knew of the plan.

 

[Thunderlips]

I also agree with the overriding Varys/Littlefinger opposition. It's a central theme in the books - Varys = selflessness and compassion and Littlefinger = selfishness and power hunger.

Even when Varys kills someone (like Ser Kevan), he's full of regret and compassion. "I'm sorry this hurts but it must be done..." etc. His attempts save Shae is another act of compassion. There are limits to what he can do, but he does act out of selflessness more often than we give him credit for.

Littlefinger, on the other hand, is an evil selfish mofo would regrets nothing unless it backfires in his face. He cares only about himself and will betray anyone who gets in his path. The exception, perhaps, is Sansa and Cat.....to a point. But that's only because of his boyhood love for Cat, and he's admitted it's his secret weakness.

I don't think it is selflessness at all. Varys grew up a thief and stealer of secrets. He has an end game and I doubt it is the "good of the realm". He knows about Jaime and Cersei and their kids, he knows who poisoned Jon Arryn, he likely knows that Littlefinger lied to Catelyn about the dagger being his. The "good of the realm" would be to support Tywin or Ned Stark as king - but he doesn't do that. He has been scheming for over a decade (well before anyone knew anything about The Others or dragons). I don't think we know *what* Varys' endgame is.

A King Tywin or Ned would make it exceedingly difficult for a Targ to conquer Westeros. A Joffery or Cersei? Easier. Much easier.

ETA: which is also why he whacks Ser Kevan Lannister.

Yeah... but why would he want a Targ on the throne? The initial plan was for Viserys to gain the throne through the use of Khal Drogo's khalasar. Viserys was as spiteful and cruel as Joffrey. Even Ser Barristan says that Viserys was his father's son to Dany. On top of that - it is generally thought that Tywin was the reason the realm was prosperous during the Mad King's rule. Who would be better Viserys or Robert? I think the answer hands down is Robert. Now, this is assuming that Aegon wasn't the endgame (Viserys to start the war and have Aegon show up with the better claim). If Aegon was the goal the entire time then maybe the "good of the realm" idea holds water *but* that would still require war across all of Westeros for an uncertain outcome.

Also, it was Jaime who stopped the pyromancers from burning down King's Landing when we can assume that Varys knew of the plan.

Has Varys ever lied though? Wasn't he the one to tell the Mad King not to open the doors to Tywin? Just off the top of my head, I don't remember Varys really ever being untruthful....I think he's been more or less honest with everyone he's dealt with.

 

[sn0mm1s]

Can I get a refresher here? Are you talking about Jaquen? Was it known he was there until Arya was on her way north?

Well, we know Jaqen was in the Black Cells at the same time as Ned since Yoren said that is where he got Jaqen, Rorge, and Biter from.

Here is where the theory starts:

Faceless men are the world's premiere assassins. From what we have seen of Arya's training and Jaqen's abilities it seems highly unlikely that he was just caught and tossed in the dungeon. It seems far more likely that he was put there for a reason.

Going off of that premise - who would be Jaqen's potential target? The only person in the dungeons would be Ned. Also, the plan for Ned once he confessed to being a traitor was to go to The Wall with Yoren - so Jaqen is perfectly placed there as well. So - who wants Ned dead and who has had contact with Faceless men? Littlefinger.

Littlefinger hates the Starks - has for a long time. We also know that Littlefinger has approached/had dealings with the Faceless men (he talks about their prices when the Small Council is discussing killing Dany). We also know that Littlefinger's family was initially from Braavos (where the Faceless men reside). On top of that we know that Littlefinger wants chaos. Assuming that Littlefinger wants Ned dead it seems likely that he is the one that influenced Joffrey to execute him (and might have told Slynt since we know Slynt didn't hesitate when Joff called for Ned's head). However, if Cersei, or Varys, or anyone prevented the execution from happening - he has the backup plan of Jaqen going to The Wall. Jaqen is also very skilled about making deaths look like accidents. I wouldn't be surprised if Ned's death was to look like an accident or to look like a Lannister killed him.

This would also explain Jaqen knowing who Arya was when he came across her in the Harrenhal godswood.

I dont recall this exchange? Can you link it please?

I don't have a link or page number - but it is the scene where Arya is pissed off at the Heart tree/Old gods for not saving her father - so that would be one of the Arya chapters in A Clash of Kings. Jaqen says something like "The Old Gods shoudn't be mocked". During this conversation (IIRC) Arya asks Jaqen who he is and he says he has many names like she does "Arry, Weasel..... Arya" or something like that.

 

[sn0mm1s]

I also agree with the overriding Varys/Littlefinger opposition. It's a central theme in the books - Varys = selflessness and compassion and Littlefinger = selfishness and power hunger.

Even when Varys kills someone (like Ser Kevan), he's full of regret and compassion. "I'm sorry this hurts but it must be done..." etc. His attempts save Shae is another act of compassion. There are limits to what he can do, but he does act out of selflessness more often than we give him credit for.

Littlefinger, on the other hand, is an evil selfish mofo would regrets nothing unless it backfires in his face. He cares only about himself and will betray anyone who gets in his path. The exception, perhaps, is Sansa and Cat.....to a point. But that's only because of his boyhood love for Cat, and he's admitted it's his secret weakness.

I don't think it is selflessness at all. Varys grew up a thief and stealer of secrets. He has an end game and I doubt it is the "good of the realm". He knows about Jaime and Cersei and their kids, he knows who poisoned Jon Arryn, he likely knows that Littlefinger lied to Catelyn about the dagger being his. The "good of the realm" would be to support Tywin or Ned Stark as king - but he doesn't do that. He has been scheming for over a decade (well before anyone knew anything about The Others or dragons). I don't think we know *what* Varys' endgame is.

A King Tywin or Ned would make it exceedingly difficult for a Targ to conquer Westeros. A Joffery or Cersei? Easier. Much easier.

ETA: which is also why he whacks Ser Kevan Lannister.

Yeah... but why would he want a Targ on the throne? The initial plan was for Viserys to gain the throne through the use of Khal Drogo's khalasar. Viserys was as spiteful and cruel as Joffrey. Even Ser Barristan says that Viserys was his father's son to Dany. On top of that - it is generally thought that Tywin was the reason the realm was prosperous during the Mad King's rule. Who would be better Viserys or Robert? I think the answer hands down is Robert. Now, this is assuming that Aegon wasn't the endgame (Viserys to start the war and have Aegon show up with the better claim). If Aegon was the goal the entire time then maybe the "good of the realm" idea holds water *but* that would still require war across all of Westeros for an uncertain outcome.

Also, it was Jaime who stopped the pyromancers from burning down King's Landing when we can assume that Varys knew of the plan.

Has Varys ever lied though? Wasn't he the one to tell the Mad King not to open the doors to Tywin? Just off the top of my head, I don't remember Varys really ever being untruthful....I think he's been more or less honest with everyone he's dealt with.

Honest? I guess we haven't seen Varys speak an outright lie - but I don't think you could call him honest. He never told Robert about Cersei and Jaime, sends messages to Ser Jorah to protect Dany (when Robert wants her dead), never told anyone about Jon Arryn's poisoning, didn't defend Tyrion at the trial, didn't defend Ned Stark, planted Tyrell money in Rugen's chamber to make it look like the Tyrell's helped Tyrion escape etc. etc. plenty of dishonest actions.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

When I read some of these posts from sn0mm1s I feel like I need to read the books about 2 more times

 

[Cold Dead Hands]

Sorry for the typos. My phone battery died right as I posted that.

For book readers the hairnet was suspicious given the amount of time spent on its description and Thorns looking at it etc. with just detailed descriptions. The show you have Dontos give her a necklace. You have thorns talk to her but nothing out of the ordinary for an old lady to do by touching her. Book readers of course were giddy to see it go down that way. Normal people watching though would think nothing of it and certainly no reasonable person assumes that a necklace has poison on it. And it's not really noticeable without zooming in and paying careful attention that there's a missing jewel in an obscure area. So somebody posting that with captions and such specificity is a pretty big spoiler for watchers, even if it's not a big one in the grand scheme of the story.

I actually think the necklace is a red herring specifically for the book readers. If you watch the entire scene play out with Sansa and the Queen of Thorns, all of the jewels are still attached as she walks away. In the screen cap the left-most jewel is hidden under the collar of the dress. At the end of the scene you see all of the jewels clearly.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I like most of the characters in the book. Exceptions are Sansa and Cercei.

I am rereading from the beginning and am really reminded why I didn't like Cat.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

I like most of the characters in the book. Exceptions are Sansa and Cercei.

I am rereading from the beginning and am really reminded why I didn't like Cat.

Cat is the worst.

 

[sn0mm1s]

I like most of the characters in the book. Exceptions are Sansa and Cercei.

I am rereading from the beginning and am really reminded why I didn't like Cat.

Cat is the worst.

All of the Tully siblings are horrible. Thanks to them we have:

A poisoning of Jon Arryn (Lysa) along with a letter implicating the Lannisters (Lysa)

A capturing/imprisoning/trial of Tyrion/start of war (Cat + Lysa)

Escape of Jaime Lannister (Cat - which also played a part in the next blunder)

Red Wedding/Frey Betrayal of Robb/Stannis' defeat on the Blackwater (courtesy of Edmure because he pulled Robb's men out of the Twins and engaged Tywin)

 

[parrot]

Can I get a refresher here? Are you talking about Jaquen? Was it known he was there until Arya was on her way north?

Well, we know Jaqen was in the Black Cells at the same time as Ned since Yoren said that is where he got Jaqen, Rorge, and Biter from.

Here is where the theory starts:

Faceless men are the world's premiere assassins. From what we have seen of Arya's training and Jaqen's abilities it seems highly unlikely that he was just caught and tossed in the dungeon. It seems far more likely that he was put there for a reason.

Going off of that premise - who would be Jaqen's potential target? The only person in the dungeons would be Ned. Also, the plan for Ned once he confessed to being a traitor was to go to The Wall with Yoren - so Jaqen is perfectly placed there as well. So - who wants Ned dead and who has had contact with Faceless men? Littlefinger.

Littlefinger hates the Starks - has for a long time. We also know that Littlefinger has approached/had dealings with the Faceless men (he talks about their prices when the Small Council is discussing killing Dany). We also know that Littlefinger's family was initially from Braavos (where the Faceless men reside). On top of that we know that Littlefinger wants chaos. Assuming that Littlefinger wants Ned dead it seems likely that he is the one that influenced Joffrey to execute him (and might have told Slynt since we know Slynt didn't hesitate when Joff called for Ned's head). However, if Cersei, or Varys, or anyone prevented the execution from happening - he has the backup plan of Jaqen going to The Wall. Jaqen is also very skilled about making deaths look like accidents. I wouldn't be surprised if Ned's death was to look like an accident or to look like a Lannister killed him.

This would also explain Jaqen knowing who Arya was when he came across her in the Harrenhal godswood.

I dont recall this exchange? Can you link it please?

I don't have a link or page number - but it is the scene where Arya is pissed off at the Heart tree/Old gods for not saving her father - so that would be one of the Arya chapters in A Clash of Kings. Jaqen says something like "The Old Gods shoudn't be mocked". During this conversation (IIRC) Arya asks Jaqen who he is and he says he has many names like she does "Arry, Weasel..... Arya" or something like that.

Arya IX

Arya went to her knees. She wasn't sure how she should begin. She clasped her hands together. Help me, you old gods, she prayed silently. Help me get those men out of the dungeon so we can kill Ser Amory, and bring me home to Winterfell. Make me a water dancer and a wolf and not afraid again, ever.
Was that enough? Maybe she should pray aloud if she wanted the old gods to hear. Maybe she should pray longer. Sometimes her father had prayed a long time, she remembered. But the old gods had never helped him. Remembering that made her angry. "You should have saved him," she scolded the tree. "He prayed to you all the time. I don't care if you help me or not. I don't think you could even if you wanted to."
"Gods are not mocked, girl."
The voice startled her. She leapt to her feet and drew her wooden sword. Jaqen H'ghar stood so still in the darkness that he seemed one of the trees. "A man comes to hear a name. One and two and then comes three. A man would have done."
Arya lowered the splintery point toward the ground. "How did you know I was here?"
"A man sees. A man hears. A man knows."
She regarded him suspiciously. Had the gods sent him? "How'd you make the dog kill Weese? Did you call Rorge and Biter up from hell? Is Jaqen H'ghar your true name?"
"Some men have many names. Weasel. Arry. Arya."
She backed away from him, until she was pressed against the heart tree. "Did Gendry tell?"
"A man knows," he said again. "My lady of Stark."

 

[Gr00vus]

Jaqen was such a great character.

 

[sn0mm1s]

Can I get a refresher here? Are you talking about Jaquen? Was it known he was there until Arya was on her way north?

Well, we know Jaqen was in the Black Cells at the same time as Ned since Yoren said that is where he got Jaqen, Rorge, and Biter from.

Here is where the theory starts:

Faceless men are the world's premiere assassins. From what we have seen of Arya's training and Jaqen's abilities it seems highly unlikely that he was just caught and tossed in the dungeon. It seems far more likely that he was put there for a reason.

Going off of that premise - who would be Jaqen's potential target? The only person in the dungeons would be Ned. Also, the plan for Ned once he confessed to being a traitor was to go to The Wall with Yoren - so Jaqen is perfectly placed there as well. So - who wants Ned dead and who has had contact with Faceless men? Littlefinger.

Littlefinger hates the Starks - has for a long time. We also know that Littlefinger has approached/had dealings with the Faceless men (he talks about their prices when the Small Council is discussing killing Dany). We also know that Littlefinger's family was initially from Braavos (where the Faceless men reside). On top of that we know that Littlefinger wants chaos. Assuming that Littlefinger wants Ned dead it seems likely that he is the one that influenced Joffrey to execute him (and might have told Slynt since we know Slynt didn't hesitate when Joff called for Ned's head). However, if Cersei, or Varys, or anyone prevented the execution from happening - he has the backup plan of Jaqen going to The Wall. Jaqen is also very skilled about making deaths look like accidents. I wouldn't be surprised if Ned's death was to look like an accident or to look like a Lannister killed him.

This would also explain Jaqen knowing who Arya was when he came across her in the Harrenhal godswood.

I dont recall this exchange? Can you link it please?

I don't have a link or page number - but it is the scene where Arya is pissed off at the Heart tree/Old gods for not saving her father - so that would be one of the Arya chapters in A Clash of Kings. Jaqen says something like "The Old Gods shoudn't be mocked". During this conversation (IIRC) Arya asks Jaqen who he is and he says he has many names like she does "Arry, Weasel..... Arya" or something like that.

Arya IX

Arya went to her knees. She wasn't sure how she should begin. She clasped her hands together. Help me, you old gods, she prayed silently. Help me get those men out of the dungeon so we can kill Ser Amory, and bring me home to Winterfell. Make me a water dancer and a wolf and not afraid again, ever.
Was that enough? Maybe she should pray aloud if she wanted the old gods to hear. Maybe she should pray longer. Sometimes her father had prayed a long time, she remembered. But the old gods had never helped him. Remembering that made her angry. "You should have saved him," she scolded the tree. "He prayed to you all the time. I don't care if you help me or not. I don't think you could even if you wanted to."
"Gods are not mocked, girl."
The voice startled her. She leapt to her feet and drew her wooden sword. Jaqen H'ghar stood so still in the darkness that he seemed one of the trees. "A man comes to hear a name. One and two and then comes three. A man would have done."
Arya lowered the splintery point toward the ground. "How did you know I was here?"
"A man sees. A man hears. A man knows."
She regarded him suspiciously. Had the gods sent him? "How'd you make the dog kill Weese? Did you call Rorge and Biter up from hell? Is Jaqen H'ghar your true name?"
"Some men have many names. Weasel. Arry. Arya."
She backed away from him, until she was pressed against the heart tree. "Did Gendry tell?"
"A man knows," he said again. "My lady of Stark."

Thanks for putting that up... my memory wasn't horribly off but I am too lazy to go flipping through the books.

 

[sn0mm1s]

Jaqen was such a great character.

We are going to see him again in the next book (I am assuming) since he is currently in Old Town posing as a student - or at least the aftermath of whatever he does.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

I like most of the characters in the book. Exceptions are Sansa and Cercei.

I am rereading from the beginning and am really reminded why I didn't like Cat.

Cat is the worst.

All of the Tully siblings are horrible. Thanks to them we have:

A poisoning of Jon Arryn (Lysa) along with a letter implicating the Lannisters (Lysa)

A capturing/imprisoning/trial of Tyrion/start of war (Cat + Lysa)

Escape of Jaime Lannister (Cat - which also played a part in the next blunder)

Red Wedding/Frey Betrayal of Robb/Stannis' defeat on the Blackwater (courtesy of Edmure because he pulled Robb's men out of the Twins and engaged Tywin)

Plus of the older Stark kids, aren't Jon and Arya described as being more like Ned while Robb and Sansa take after their Mother?

 

[Slider6]

Jaqen was such a great character.

We are going to see him again in the next book (I am assuming) since he is currently in Old Town posing as a student - or at least the aftermath of whatever he does.

What? You can spoiler tag it if you want.

 

[Vrana]

Jaqen was such a great character.

We are going to see him again in the next book (I am assuming) since he is currently in Old Town posing as a student - or at least the aftermath of whatever he does.

What? You can spoiler tag it if you want.

In an Arya chapter in Harrenhal (I think) we see Jaqen change his face into a guy with a hooked nose and a scar on his right cheek.

Then in the prologue for Feast, we see the character Pate killed by an alchemist that has a hooked nose and a scar on his cheek and otherwise meets the description of Jaqen.

Then when Sam gets to the Citadel we see Pate alive and well working for Archmaester Marwyn.

Jaqen -> Alchemist -> Pate

 

[Swing 51]

Jaqen was such a great character.

We are going to see him again in the next book (I am assuming) since he is currently in Old Town posing as a student - or at least the aftermath of whatever he does.

What? You can spoiler tag it if you want.

We don't need no stinkin' spoiler tag up in here!

A Feast for CrowsA man that claims to be an alchemist and matches the description of Jaqen's new face arrives in Oldtown. He kills Pate, an inept Citadel novice struggling to form his first link in the chain.[6] When Samwell Tarly later arrives in the Citadel he is welcomed by a novice calling himself Pate who appears to the outside world to be that same Pate.[7]

 

[KarmaPolice]

When I read some of these posts from sn0mm1s I feel like I need to read the books about 2 more times

no ####.

I can't believe how much more stuff I am picking up on the second read through of the first book. helps to know what to look for too.

:clink:

 

[Thunderlips]

Grand Faceless Man Theory

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/53858-adwd-spoilers-the-grand-faceless-men-conspiracy-theory/

 

[Slider6]

Wow! I really need to read through them again. Maybe take notes this time. No way I would have remembered the description of who Jaqen turned into multiple books later.

 

[Gnat Berries]

Can I get a refresher here? Are you talking about Jaquen? Was it known he was there until Arya was on her way north?

Well, we know Jaqen was in the Black Cells at the same time as Ned since Yoren said that is where he got Jaqen, Rorge, and Biter from.

Here is where the theory starts:

Faceless men are the world's premiere assassins. From what we have seen of Arya's training and Jaqen's abilities it seems highly unlikely that he was just caught and tossed in the dungeon. It seems far more likely that he was put there for a reason.

Going off of that premise - who would be Jaqen's potential target? The only person in the dungeons would be Ned. Also, the plan for Ned once he confessed to being a traitor was to go to The Wall with Yoren - so Jaqen is perfectly placed there as well. So - who wants Ned dead and who has had contact with Faceless men? Littlefinger.

Littlefinger hates the Starks - has for a long time. We also know that Littlefinger has approached/had dealings with the Faceless men (he talks about their prices when the Small Council is discussing killing Dany). We also know that Littlefinger's family was initially from Braavos (where the Faceless men reside). On top of that we know that Littlefinger wants chaos. Assuming that Littlefinger wants Ned dead it seems likely that he is the one that influenced Joffrey to execute him (and might have told Slynt since we know Slynt didn't hesitate when Joff called for Ned's head). However, if Cersei, or Varys, or anyone prevented the execution from happening - he has the backup plan of Jaqen going to The Wall. Jaqen is also very skilled about making deaths look like accidents. I wouldn't be surprised if Ned's death was to look like an accident or to look like a Lannister killed him.

This would also explain Jaqen knowing who Arya was when he came across her in the Harrenhal godswood.

This is good.

 

[Gnat Berries]

I also agree with the overriding Varys/Littlefinger opposition. It's a central theme in the books - Varys = selflessness and compassion and Littlefinger = selfishness and power hunger.

Even when Varys kills someone (like Ser Kevan), he's full of regret and compassion. "I'm sorry this hurts but it must be done..." etc. His attempts save Shae is another act of compassion. There are limits to what he can do, but he does act out of selflessness more often than we give him credit for.

Littlefinger, on the other hand, is an evil selfish mofo would regrets nothing unless it backfires in his face. He cares only about himself and will betray anyone who gets in his path. The exception, perhaps, is Sansa and Cat.....to a point. But that's only because of his boyhood love for Cat, and he's admitted it's his secret weakness.

I don't think it is selflessness at all. Varys grew up a thief and stealer of secrets. He has an end game and I doubt it is the "good of the realm". He knows about Jaime and Cersei and their kids, he knows who poisoned Jon Arryn, he likely knows that Littlefinger lied to Catelyn about the dagger being his. The "good of the realm" would be to support Tywin or Ned Stark as king - but he doesn't do that. He has been scheming for over a decade (well before anyone knew anything about The Others or dragons). I don't think we know *what* Varys' endgame is.

A King Tywin or Ned would make it exceedingly difficult for a Targ to conquer Westeros. A Joffery or Cersei? Easier. Much easier.

ETA: which is also why he whacks Ser Kevan Lannister.

Yeah... but why would he want a Targ on the throne? The initial plan was for Viserys to gain the throne through the use of Khal Drogo's khalasar. Viserys was as spiteful and cruel as Joffrey. Even Ser Barristan says that Viserys was his father's son to Dany. On top of that - it is generally thought that Tywin was the reason the realm was prosperous during the Mad King's rule. Who would be better Viserys or Robert? I think the answer hands down is Robert. Now, this is assuming that Aegon wasn't the endgame (Viserys to start the war and have Aegon show up with the better claim). If Aegon was the goal the entire time then maybe the "good of the realm" idea holds water *but* that would still require war across all of Westeros for an uncertain outcome.

Also, it was Jaime who stopped the pyromancers from burning down King's Landing when we can assume that Varys knew of the plan.

Mentioned this earlier: unsubstantiated theory that Varys knows about The Song of Fire and Ice prophecy and how it's about to come to pass. So, like Maester Aemon, he mistook Viscerys as "the prince who was promised," then later realized it's Dany.

ETA: "Serving the realm" is really him talking about aligning things to stop the white walkers - who threaten not one kingdom or even the Iron Throne, but the entire realm.

 

[Gnat Berries]

BTW, sn0mm1s, you are clearly not an "normal sleuth" but an "above average" and even perhaps "excellent" sleuth. I recommend you stay in this thread for your own safety.

 

[Clifford]

Can someone remind me about the Varys-Kevan murder? That one has completely slipped my mind.

 

[Gnat Berries]

Can someone remind me about the Varys-Kevan murder? That one has completely slipped my mind.

The very end of Dragons. Last scene we've seen outside the recently released Winters chapter.

Kevan is about to take over running the Iron Throne for an incompetent Cersei. He moves in to the Tower of the Hand (I believe) and there waiting for him in the dark is Varys and bunch of his "little birds," who turn out to be pscyhotic children armed with daggers. They et tu Brute him full of holes. As he lay dying, Varys apologizes for his pain and the need to kill him, but he couldn't have Ser Kevan fixing King's Landing from its current state of total chaos.

So he killed Kevan because he knows/expects Dany to show up any day now, and an Iron Throne run by Cersei is easy pickings compared to one run by Ser Kevan.

 

[GTBilly]

In the movie Titanic the ship sinks and Di Caprio dies.

 

[strykerpks]

Can someone remind me about the Varys-Kevan murder? That one has completely slipped my mind.

The very end of Dragons. Last scene we've seen outside the recently released Winters chapter.

Kevan is about to take over running the Iron Throne for an incompetent Cersei. He moves in to the Tower of the Hand (I believe) and there waiting for him in the dark is Varys and bunch of his "little birds," who turn out to be pscyhotic children armed with daggers. They et tu Brute him full of holes. As he lay dying, Varys apologizes for his pain and the need to kill him, but he couldn't have Ser Kevan fixing King's Landing from its current state of total chaos.

So he killed Kevan because he knows/expects Dany to show up any day now, and an Iron Throne run by Cersei is easy pickings compared to one run by Ser Kevan.

Not quite...

He goes to visit Cercei after a council meeting and then is called away by a boy, saying that Pycelle needed to see him in the rookery. Varys shoots Kevan in the chest with a crossbow as he enters. He notices Pycelle there as well who is now dead at the hands of Varys.

Varys tells Kevan that he killed him because Aegon, not Dany, is coming and ready to rule. Then the kids come and stab him

FIN

 

[Gnat Berries]

Can someone remind me about the Varys-Kevan murder? That one has completely slipped my mind.

The very end of Dragons. Last scene we've seen outside the recently released Winters chapter.

Kevan is about to take over running the Iron Throne for an incompetent Cersei. He moves in to the Tower of the Hand (I believe) and there waiting for him in the dark is Varys and bunch of his "little birds," who turn out to be pscyhotic children armed with daggers. They et tu Brute him full of holes. As he lay dying, Varys apologizes for his pain and the need to kill him, but he couldn't have Ser Kevan fixing King's Landing from its current state of total chaos.

So he killed Kevan because he knows/expects Dany to show up any day now, and an Iron Throne run by Cersei is easy pickings compared to one run by Ser Kevan.

Not quite...

He goes to visit Cercei after a council meeting and then is called away by a boy, saying that Pycelle needed to see him in the rookery. Varys shoots Kevan in the chest with a crossbow as he enters. He notices Pycelle there as well who is now dead at the hands of Varys.

Varys tells Kevan that he killed him because Aegon, not Dany, is coming and ready to rule. Then the kids come and stab him

FIN

Tomato, TO-mato.

(thanks)

 

[Sinn Fein]

In the movie Titanic the ship sinks and Di Caprio dies.

God-damnit man!! I was just getting ready to watch that this weekend. Is nothing sacred around here anymore?

 

[sn0mm1s]

BTW, sn0mm1s, you are clearly not an "normal sleuth" but an "above average" and even perhaps "excellent" sleuth. I recommend you stay in this thread for your own safety.

I post in that other thread on occasion - but I know the books so well it is pretty easy not to spoil anything. The show is actually hard to watch the first time because I am distracted by all the changes in scenes, characters, dialogue.

 

[sn0mm1s]

Mentioned this earlier: unsubstantiated theory that Varys knows about The Song of Fire and Ice prophecy and how it's about to come to pass. So, like Maester Aemon, he mistook Viscerys as "the prince who was promised," then later realized it's Dany.

ETA: "Serving the realm" is really him talking about aligning things to stop the white walkers - who threaten not one kingdom or even the Iron Throne, but the entire realm.

I don't think he knows anything of The Others though. You would think, that because of Alliser Thorne's trip to King's Landing, that Varys would take some sort of action if he had some prior knowledge of The Others. Maybe try to convince anyone of power to send a few men to confirm it - whether directly or indirectly. He also hates magic (which would also seem to me that he wouldn't put much stock in prophecy). You would also think that he wouldn't want The North in turmoil if he knew The Others were coming. His background and actions don't seem to me to suggest that he knows they are coming and is planning for them.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

In the movie Titanic the ship sinks and Di Caprio dies.

God-damnit man!! I was just getting ready to watch that this weekend. Is nothing sacred around here anymore?

The iceberg did it.