What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.

HBO - Song of Ice&Fire Series -Varsity Thread - no TV only whiners (1 Viewer)

the moops said:
Why does Tyrion look more like a Targaryen than Cersei and Jaime? 
Click to expand...
I think people mean the pale blonde of his hair (in the books anyway) tends more toward Targaryen than the golden blonde of the Lannisters. Of course there's the black hair in there as well. :shrug:

 
Uruk-Hai said:
Martin has used the "so-and-so is/may not really be someone's kid" thing more than on Jon Snow. The Targ reign (and other families; see: Fireball among many others) is littered with parentage doubt, so Jon Snow's deal isn't that uncommon in GRRM's works. Plus, if you buy into the evidence spoiler-tagged above, he's already been sowing the seeds for over 20 years. Young Griff was much more out of left field to me than the theories outlined above.
Click to expand...
Its a somewhat odd situation because he started the books before the whole internet message board phenomena, where the wisdom of the herd often compiles various bits of foreshadowing and ruins the reveal for everyone.  I think some modern day authors and tv show directors actively mislead their plots to play off and foil the internet sleuths, but Martin didn't really have a chance to do that since he had three books published by 2000.  I've wondered whether or how much it grinds his gears that everyone knew about Snow's lineage long before he had a chance to reveal it in the books, and of course now its been confirmed beyond a doubt by HBO.  I've also wondered whether this is delaying him somewhat, as he tries to build in misleading hints and more surprises in his ongoing battle with the internet crowd.

 
CletiusMaximus said:
Its a somewhat odd situation because he started the books before the whole internet message board phenomena, where the wisdom of the herd often compiles various bits of foreshadowing and ruins the reveal for everyone.  I think some modern day authors and tv show directors actively mislead their plots to play off and foil the internet sleuths, but Martin didn't really have a chance to do that since he had three books published by 2000.  I've wondered whether or how much it grinds his gears that everyone knew about Snow's lineage long before he had a chance to reveal it in the books, and of course now its been confirmed beyond a doubt by HBO.  I've also wondered whether this is delaying him somewhat, as he tries to build in misleading hints and more surprises in his ongoing battle with the internet crowd.
Click to expand...
I honestly don't think that one bugs him so much anymore. Hell, there were folks who had it figured it out after the first book (and posted it on whatever those pre-message board sites were called - usenet? - not to mention him being asked about it at Coms back in the 90s). He laid enough seeds for that theory by the time Ned got his head lopped off.

But, I agree that there is nothing he can put in future books that doesn't have it's own web site(s) nowadays with thousands of words of "evidence". I happen to think he's too good a writer to wreck the continuity of his series to bust out fan theories. Though his "hah! I just thought of a twist with a character the show killed" post a couple of years ago is worrisome.......

 
TheFanatic said:
I've got to stop reading these things. That one is good. Real good. I think I might need to stay out of these two threads for a while. 
Click to expand...
Don't sweat it.  In this thread the books don't even exist.  Not sure why somebody linked to a theory based on things said in the books.  

 
Still think it's good, but suffering from a little too much tv magic and being too rushed (which was really my only complaint about last season too.) Funny to watch people in the other thread ##### about things like Euron coming out of nowhere when I know I wasn't the only one in this thread asking "where are the Iron Born? have they totally dropped them?" like 3 seasons ago.

But I can see how a lot of the broad strokes could fit together and mirror the books if Martin ever finishes them (snicker.)

 
Bob Sacamano said:
I thought so in the first two episodes.  Ep3 was an improvement.
Click to expand...
Too much exposition via dialog, and in terms of plot development it wasn't so great. Are Euron's ships nuclear powered or something? How did they get from King's landing to Casterly rock that fast? I still don't understand what route the unsullied fleet took to get there either. If they went south they would have run into Euron's fleet close to when they set out from Dragonstone at least, if they went north it would have taken much longer, if that's even open due to winter now anyway. Nobody saw Jamie's army approaching the Highgarden lands to give advanced warning? That's a long march for no one to see it. And that was the one curveball in the episode, everything else pretty much went down as you'd expect.

 
Gr00vus said:
Are Euron's ships nuclear powered or something? How did they get from King's landing to Casterly rock that fast? I still don't understand what route the unsullied fleet took to get there either. If they went south they would have run into Euron's fleet close to when they set out from Dragonstone at least, if they went north it would have taken much longer, if that's even open due to winter now anyway. Nobody saw Jamie's army approaching the Highgarden lands to give advanced warning? That's a long march for no one to see it. And that was the one curveball in the episode, everything else pretty much went down as you'd expect.
Click to expand...
I don't know what any of these things have to do with being past the books.  Even in the books people always complained about Littlefinger/Varys having transporters.  That things happen independent of the viewer/reader's perceived timeline has nothing to do with being past the books. 

Nobody saw Stannis' troops on their way to attack wildlings and sent warning.  Nobody saw the troops of the Vale on their way to the Battle of the Bastards and sent warning.  And both seem like longer marches than Casterly Rock to Highgarden (assuming Euron didn't use his nuclear subs to drop them off even closer).  And how do we know nobody knew about it?  Maybe Olenna knew well in advance that there were a bunch of Lannisters headed to her doorstep and simply couldn't do anything about it in time.  You're being nerdpicky. 

 
Just to humor the Turn theory a bit more: We don't know the powers of the drowned god(s). The fire god can do a lot of unbelievable ####. Maybe the water dude can too. Euron has spent most his life ruling the waters. I'm sure he's learned a lot by being The Dread Pirate Roberts. Add that to the tricks of the drowned gods and who knows what he is capable of. I guess we'll see :popcorn:  . 

This thread going to be safe from hacked/leaked/spoilers? I'm not touching the other thread until the season is over.

 
Bob Sacamano said:
I don't know what any of these things have to do with being past the books.  Even in the books people always complained about Littlefinger/Varys having transporters.  That things happen independent of the viewer/reader's perceived timeline has nothing to do with being past the books. 

Nobody saw Stannis' troops on their way to attack wildlings and sent warning.  Nobody saw the troops of the Vale on their way to the Battle of the Bastards and sent warning.  And both seem like longer marches than Casterly Rock to Highgarden (assuming Euron didn't use his nuclear subs to drop them off even closer).  And how do we know nobody knew about it?  Maybe Olenna knew well in advance that there were a bunch of Lannisters headed to her doorstep and simply couldn't do anything about it in time.  You're being nerdpicky. 
Click to expand...
Almost everything in your second paragraph are flaws in the show writing vs. the book writing except Stannis - in which case the wildlings were consistently portrayed as disorganized, beyond the wall was virtually depopulated, so it made sense that they wouldn't see Stannis coming. If Olenna did have plenty of advance notice, there's a lot she could have done - at minimum send a raven to Danaerys and move as much gold as she could out of the city. Probably not wait around to be captured/killed as well. And in truth, the way they portrayed it in the episode, it sure seemed like the first she knew of it was when she looked out her window and saw the Lannister army marching up. Also, for someone who has been super well connected throughout the show, it seems hard to believe she had zero idea Tarly had turned on her.

These actually illustrate my point, sometimes Martin's writing dragged, but he had enough detail to make sure things hung together consistency wise. The show has gone beyond the bounds of plausibility just to try and move quickly towards their conclusion. They're trading good writing for the sake of expediency in many cases and it shows.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Gr00vus said:
Almost everything in your second paragraph are flaws in the show writing vs. the book writing except Stannis - in which case the wildlings were consistently portrayed as disorganized, beyond the wall was virtually depopulated, so it made sense that they wouldn't see Stannis coming. If Olenna did have plenty of advance notice, there's a lot she could have done - at minimum send a raven to Danaerys and move as much gold as she could out of the city. Probably not wait around to be captured/killed as well. And in truth, the way they portrayed it in the episode, it sure seemed like the first she knew of it was when she looked out her window and saw the Lannister army marching up. Also, for someone who has been super well connected throughout the show, it seems hard to believe she had zero idea Tarly had turned on her.

These actually illustrate my point, sometimes Martin's writing dragged, but he had enough detail to make sure things hung together consistency wise. The show has gone beyond the bounds of plausibility just to try and move quickly towards their conclusion. They're trading good writing for the sake of expediency in many cases and it shows.
Click to expand...
If I had to spend an hour watching Olenna move gold and prepare for the Lannisters......I don't think I'd watch the show.

 
Thunderlips said:
If I had to spend an hour watching Olenna move gold and prepare for the Lannisters......I don't think I'd watch the show.
Click to expand...
I'm not implying they need to depict it all on screen, just that it would be a more consistent set of events than what went down in this episode where an army of 10,000 troops or so marched from King's Landing to Highgarden through a portion of the Kingdom that remained pretty well populated and didn't offer much in the way of cover and took the town/castle by surprise.

 
Gr00vus said:
I'm not implying they need to depict it all on screen, just that it would be a more consistent set of events than what went down in this episode where an army of 10,000 troops or so marched from King's Landing to Highgarden through a portion of the Kingdom that remained pretty well populated and didn't offer much in the way of cover and took the town/castle by surprise.
Click to expand...
I'm just messing with you.....IMO, one of the things that I thought the show did very well while it was still drawing from the books, was convey a lot of information about the important goings on that weren't relevant to what we were seeing on the screen at the time. One example I think would be the shows relationship to Stannis in S1.  We never saw him, we never saw Dragonstone.....but the show gave us enough "throw away" material about him that it made for a much deeper and more natural story. We know who he is, what is disposition is, what his thoughts...his intentions and the threat that he potentially can be all from a couple of seemingly throw away lines from (IIRC) Ned, Renly and Littlefinger.

 I think as the show passed the books, they've lost this ability and 1) either hit you over the head with the seemingly "irrelevant" info that they want you to know about or 2) eliminate anything that might diminish "the pop" that they want (the pop being Jamie at Olenna's doorstep with Tarly).

ETA: It's still an awesome show....and one of the best of all time.  I do think though, that if is the way that Martin intended for it to go down with Olenna.....he'd have littered the pages with info about the situation you've brought up.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Gr00vus said:
I'm not implying they need to depict it all on screen, just that it would be a more consistent set of events than what went down in this episode where an army of 10,000 troops or so marched from King's Landing to Highgarden through a portion of the Kingdom that remained pretty well populated and didn't offer much in the way of cover and took the town/castle by surprise.
Click to expand...
They did move the gold, but off screen.  The Lannisters still found it, though we don't actually know that yet.  Lots of people ran to tell Lord Tarly that a Lannister army was marching, but he seemed to already be aware.  Nobody was surprised, but they died anyway.

Better?

 
I think Martins smart enough to write for the ages and the reader who, 50 years from now, is exposed to his story as opposed to try and show up the television show/internet nerds with a couple of 11th hour tweaks. 

 
Thunderlips said:
the show gave us enough "throw away" material about him that it made for a much deeper and more natural story. We know who he is, what is disposition is, what his thoughts...his intentions and the threat that he potentially can be all from a couple of seemingly throw away lines from (IIRC) Ned, Renly and Littlefinger.

 I think as the show passed the books, they've lost this ability and 1) either hit you over the head with the seemingly "irrelevant" info that they want you to know about or 2) eliminate anything that might diminish "the pop" that they want. 

ETA: It's still an awesome show....and one of the best of all time.  I do think though, that if is the way that Martin intended for it to go down with Olenna.....he'd have littered the pages with info about the situation you've brought up.
Click to expand...
I agree with all this - that's really what I'm getting at.

 
Bob Sacamano said:
They did move the gold, but off screen.  The Lannisters still found it, though we don't actually know that yet.  Lots of people ran to tell Lord Tarly that a Lannister army was marching, but he seemed to already be aware.  Nobody was surprised, but they died anyway.

Better?
Click to expand...
Better would have been Tarly bringing his troops into Highgarden under the pretenses of helping to defend the Tyrells against the approaching Lannister army and then heel turning once inside the castle.

As it stands now, they basically had Olenna, who'd been depicted as a skilled player throughout, go out getting clowned in an obvious way. It's jarringly inconsistent, like what's going on with all the implausible boat travel this season.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
The scene with Bran and Sansa and the ambiguity of what wedding he was taking about brought up a crazy idea - what if she ends up having to marry the Night's King as some sort of sacrifice/peace offering?

 
I posted this in the other thread but I think the showrunners are expecting us to put two and two together more, partly because they don't have time to fit in as much since they are rushing through these episodes and especially since we don't have the books to fill in in the gaps. In Euron's case, if we take him literally that he has a fleet of over 1,000 ships, he could have easily split his forces and sent half to the Rock and half to smash Yara's fleet. In Highgarden's case, I think that when Tarly flipped he would have taken most, if not all of the Tyrell bannermen with him. He could have easily kept the news that the Lannister army was marching there a secret and caught Highgarden by surprise. I would liken it to similar to how Roose sabotaged Robb's forces without it being readily apparent.

However I definitely agree about the Battle of the Bastards, that was just dramatic tv cliché to have the Eerie forces show up at the perfect time with no warning. Also the attack on Yara's fleet was very tv, if that occurred in the book somehow, I think Martin would just write it as the Iron Fleet surprised Dany's ships on their way to Dorne and destroyed them without many more details than that.

If the show is following some of the same arcs that GRRM was planning on putting into his books, no doubt it will happen differently or a little more plausibly. For one thing, I wouldn't think the Tarly depicted in the books would flip, he is an #######, but he's also a soldier through and through. In the books the Iron Fleet is already at war with the Reach and the Highgarden forces are already taking losses (plus there is a male heir in Highgarden in Willas) so who knows how it plays out in any (possible) future books.

 
Gr00vus said:
The scene with Bran and Sansa and the ambiguity of what wedding he was taking about brought up a crazy idea - what if she ends up having to marry the Night's King as some sort of sacrifice/peace offering?
Click to expand...
He said it was snowing.  It wasn't snowing in KL when she married Tyrion.  He also said he was sorry for what happened to her which I think refers to the stuff Ramsey did to her.

 
psychobillies said:
He said it was snowing.  It wasn't snowing in KL when she married Tyrion.  He also said he was sorry for what happened to her which I think refers to the stuff Ramsey did to her.
Click to expand...
I am not convinced that Bran knows "when he is" any more. He is clearly capable of seeing things at different points in time. So far all we've seen has been backwards. I am not convinced that's the only direction he can go. I know that I felt he was talking about the future when the conversation started. It was just a gut reaction that what he was talking about was foreshadowing. It was only after a moment did I think he was referring to Ramsay. 

 
TheFanatic said:
Which is weird. Why include the color? What was she wearing under the coat? Was there a gown that was wight under that? I don't remember
Click to expand...
That's what's led some to speculate that maybe Bran was talking about a wedding that "hasn't happened yet." I'll lean towards him talking about the Ramsay wedding though, the dress was kind of an off white I guess.

 
IrishTwinkie said:
I am not convinced that Bran knows "when he is" any more. He is clearly capable of seeing things at different points in time. So far all we've seen has been backwards. I am not convinced that's the only direction he can go. I know that I felt he was talking about the future when the conversation started. It was just a gut reaction that what he was talking about was foreshadowing. It was only after a moment did I think he was referring to Ramsay. 
Click to expand...
Maybe he is talking about the future.  Who knows at this point?  I always just assumed he was talking about Ramsey, and that's why she got uncomfortable and left.   

I have a hard time believing that the Night King is coming all this way with an army of dead people just looking to get hitched.   

 
:lmao: This is the kind of stuff that makes me avoid most ASOIAF hubs/message boards. I didn't even consider anyone would think he was talking about a wedding other than Ramsay's. The show drops hints here and there, but there was nothing in the scene that led me to believe this was one such case.

:tinfoilhat:

 
Abrantes said:
:lmao: This is the kind of stuff that makes me avoid most ASOIAF hubs/message boards. I didn't even consider anyone would think he was talking about a wedding other than Ramsay's. The show drops hints here and there, but there was nothing in the scene that led me to believe this was one such case.

:tinfoilhat:
Click to expand...
Agreed. 

 
psychobillies said:
Maybe he is talking about the future.  Who knows at this point?  I always just assumed he was talking about Ramsey, and that's why she got uncomfortable and left.   

I have a hard time believing that the Night King is coming all this way with an army of dead people just looking to get hitched.   
Click to expand...
With Craster's death, they lost their supply chain for creating new Others. They need a new baby factory.

Frankly, the whole Others thing has been kind of a mess IMO (books and show). It's been the least interesting, most goofy part of the story.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Abrantes said:
:lmao: This is the kind of stuff that makes me avoid most ASOIAF hubs/message boards. I didn't even consider anyone would think he was talking about a wedding other than Ramsay's. The show drops hints here and there, but there was nothing in the scene that led me to believe this was one such case.

:tinfoilhat:
Click to expand...
While I do agree he was talking about Ramsey, the white dress comment caught me off guard when watching since he stated it so clearly and she did not wear white to Ramsey's wedding.  I think it was more of a greyish dress if memory serves...

Maybe his color pallets is off slightly in the visions :)  

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Liked the nod to "bringing together ice and fire." Also liked Melisandre dropping that bomb on Vary's about them both dying on Westeros soil.

Posted in the other thread, but everyone keeps harping on the scrolls Maester Marwyn is having Sam recopy. I thought it was more interesting that the new Winterfell Maester said that Maester Luwin kept every scroll ever received and Littlefingers ears obviously perked up at that. Wondering what he is going to find in there? Doesn't seem likely when we have Bran back, but something about Jon's lineage maybe? Other guess would be the message that Lysa sent about the Lannister's murdering Jon Arryn, perhaps that finally gets Sansa to realize how much Littlefinger has been behind everything that has happened.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Abrantes said:
:lmao: This is the kind of stuff that makes me avoid most ASOIAF hubs/message boards. I didn't even consider anyone would think he was talking about a wedding other than Ramsay's. The show drops hints here and there, but there was nothing in the scene that led me to believe this was one such case.

:tinfoilhat:
Click to expand...
Understandable.  :P  But really,Bran and Old Nan, in particular, have been the bearers of tons of foreshadowing through the story. Anytime time they are on screen they seem to be dropping something. So, I am admittedly looking for it now. 

Besides, this is better than "OMG, somebody teleported somewhere AGAIN" schitck. Or "Who was Zersei? Who died and made her boss?" or "I only watched 1/2 of one show and I can't follow along."

 
Buckna said:
Liked the nod to "bringing together ice and fire." Also liked Melisandre dropping that bomb on Vary's about them both dying on Westeros soil.

Posted in the other thread, but everyone keeps harping on the scrolls Maester Marwyn is having Sam recopy. I thought it was more interesting that the new Winterfell Maester said that Maester Luwin kept every scroll ever received and Littlefingers ears obviously perked up at that. Wondering what he is going to find in there? Doesn't seem likely when we have Bran back, but something about Jon's lineage maybe? Other guess would be the message that Lysa sent about the Lannister's murdering Jon Arryn, perhaps that finally gets Sansa to realize how much Littlefinger has been behind everything that has happened.
Click to expand...
Good point, and if Bran knows all about what Ramsey was up to, I would assume he knows all of LF's shenanigans as well. 

 
Buckna said:
I posted this in the other thread but I think the showrunners are expecting us to put two and two together more, partly because they don't have time to fit in as much since they are rushing through these episodes and especially since we don't have the books to fill in in the gaps. In Euron's case, if we take him literally that he has a fleet of over 1,000 ships, he could have easily split his forces and sent half to the Rock and half to smash Yara's fleet. In Highgarden's case, I think that when Tarly flipped he would have taken most, if not all of the Tyrell bannermen with him. He could have easily kept the news that the Lannister army was marching there a secret and caught Highgarden by surprise. I would liken it to similar to how Roose sabotaged Robb's forces without it being readily apparent.

However I definitely agree about the Battle of the Bastards, that was just dramatic tv cliché to have the Eerie forces show up at the perfect time with no warning. Also the attack on Yara's fleet was very tv, if that occurred in the book somehow, I think Martin would just write it as the Iron Fleet surprised Dany's ships on their way to Dorne and destroyed them without many more details than that.

If the show is following some of the same arcs that GRRM was planning on putting into his books, no doubt it will happen differently or a little more plausibly. For one thing, I wouldn't think the Tarly depicted in the books would flip, he is an #######, but he's also a soldier through and through. In the books the Iron Fleet is already at war with the Reach and the Highgarden forces are already taking losses (plus there is a male heir in Highgarden in Willas) so who knows how it plays out in any (possible) future books.
Click to expand...
Isnt Loras alive but injured at Dragonstone?

 
Buckna said:
Liked the nod to "bringing together ice and fire." Also liked Melisandre dropping that bomb on Vary's about them both dying on Westeros soil.

Posted in the other thread, but everyone keeps harping on the scrolls Maester Marwyn is having Sam recopy. I thought it was more interesting that the new Winterfell Maester said that Maester Luwin kept every scroll ever received and Littlefingers ears obviously perked up at that. Wondering what he is going to find in there? Doesn't seem likely when we have Bran back, but something about Jon's lineage maybe? Other guess would be the message that Lysa sent about the Lannister's murdering Jon Arryn, perhaps that finally gets Sansa to realize how much Littlefinger has been behind everything that has happened.
Click to expand...
This is a good catch. I thought it was an odd exchange, the Maester saying he didn't know the longest winter and he'd look it up. I wondered why they included the line. It could be a setup for Littlefinger to find something that ousts Jon. Next time Sansa and Jon squabble about a decision he'll convince Sansa she has to use her claim to the north to "do what must be done" to get her way. Or it could be Sansa finding out something about Littlerfinger like you say.

Sansa is probably not going to be a fan of Dany. When Jon eventually tries to convince Sansa they need Dany she might dig her heels in.

 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Joe Bryant
A Thought On News - Making Every Problem Your Problem
3 4 5
Replies
211
Views
4K
Joe Bryant
Joe Bryant
glvsav37
Entrepreneur Guys 2.0: The Side Gig
Replies
29
Views
568
the moops
the moops
JAA
Has anyone spoke to their kids varsity sports coach? How did it go?
2
Replies
56
Views
2K
cheese
cheese

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)
Top