HBO - Song of Ice&Fire Series -Varsity Thread - no TV only whiners (6 Viewers)

[Bigboy10182000]

Are they trying to move ahead much? Seems it is just trying to cram the greatest hits of books 4 and 5 into one season, then move on. (Unless book 6 comes out before next season)ETA: and yes, it has been dull.

this was my take - book 3 took appx 2 seasons, and books 4/5 will take 1, putting the show appx at the start if book 6 for season 6. GRRM says he wants book 6 out before the show next year, we'll see if that can happen, but after that, no way he gets book 7 out before the following season. I always thought it was a bit premature for the "ahhh the show is moving ahead of the books" hysteria for this season.

Im thinking his next book turns into 2-3 seasons of the show. There was SO much going on they could stretch it out easily and still make the show watchable

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

Are they trying to move ahead much? Seems it is just trying to cram the greatest hits of books 4 and 5 into one season, then move on. (Unless book 6 comes out before next season)ETA: and yes, it has been dull.

this was my take - book 3 took appx 2 seasons, and books 4/5 will take 1, putting the show appx at the start if book 6 for season 6. GRRM says he wants book 6 out before the show next year, we'll see if that can happen, but after that, no way he gets book 7 out before the following season. I always thought it was a bit premature for the "ahhh the show is moving ahead of the books" hysteria for this season.

Im thinking his next book turns into 2-3 seasons of the show. There was SO much going on they could stretch it out easily and still make the show watchable

there is only going to be 7 seasons

 

[Bigboy10182000]

Are they trying to move ahead much? Seems it is just trying to cram the greatest hits of books 4 and 5 into one season, then move on. (Unless book 6 comes out before next season)ETA: and yes, it has been dull.

this was my take - book 3 took appx 2 seasons, and books 4/5 will take 1, putting the show appx at the start if book 6 for season 6. GRRM says he wants book 6 out before the show next year, we'll see if that can happen, but after that, no way he gets book 7 out before the following season. I always thought it was a bit premature for the "ahhh the show is moving ahead of the books" hysteria for this season.

Im thinking his next book turns into 2-3 seasons of the show. There was SO much going on they could stretch it out easily and still make the show watchable

there is only going to be 7 seasons

I thought that was just a rumor?

 

[Mile High]

Are they trying to move ahead much? Seems it is just trying to cram the greatest hits of books 4 and 5 into one season, then move on. (Unless book 6 comes out before next season)ETA: and yes, it has been dull.

this was my take - book 3 took appx 2 seasons, and books 4/5 will take 1, putting the show appx at the start if book 6 for season 6. GRRM says he wants book 6 out before the show next year, we'll see if that can happen, but after that, no way he gets book 7 out before the following season. I always thought it was a bit premature for the "ahhh the show is moving ahead of the books" hysteria for this season.

Im thinking his next book turns into 2-3 seasons of the show. There was SO much going on they could stretch it out easily and still make the show watchable

there is only going to be 7 seasons

I thought that was just a rumor?

A rumor started by the producers. Sure anything can change but that's what they were thinking.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

Are they trying to move ahead much? Seems it is just trying to cram the greatest hits of books 4 and 5 into one season, then move on. (Unless book 6 comes out before next season)ETA: and yes, it has been dull.

this was my take - book 3 took appx 2 seasons, and books 4/5 will take 1, putting the show appx at the start if book 6 for season 6. GRRM says he wants book 6 out before the show next year, we'll see if that can happen, but after that, no way he gets book 7 out before the following season. I always thought it was a bit premature for the "ahhh the show is moving ahead of the books" hysteria for this season.

Im thinking his next book turns into 2-3 seasons of the show. There was SO much going on they could stretch it out easily and still make the show watchable

there is only going to be 7 seasons

I thought that was just a rumor?

A rumor started by the producers. Sure anything can change but that's what they were thinking.

Interesting. With everything leaving off in the books the way they did it almost has to be 2 season IMO.

 

[Instinctive]

The boy Littlefinger has for Olenna is the one who accuses Cersei. It's why she was arrested at the end.

 

[The Duff Man]

I am expecting the walk scene to be extended length with full frontal....or the online outrage over the Sansa seem will be mild by comparison.

 

[PatsWillWin]

The boy Littlefinger has for Olenna is the one who accuses Cersei. It's why she was arrested at the end.

I don't think so. The "boy" is Lancel Lannister and given his attitude lately I doubt he's willing to do Petyr's bidding.

 

[PatsWillWin]

I am expecting the walk scene to be extended length with full frontal....or the online outrage over the Sansa seem will be mild by comparison.

They didn't let the Septon cover up his man bits, so you'd expect the same for Cersei.

 

[PatsWillWin]

I'm not sure how they're going to pull off the whole Jon Snow deciding to go to war with Ramsey. He's been pretty steadfast in keeping his vows - turning down Stannis' offer to become Lord of Winterfell, etc. It will be awkward when he reverses course and as a result, gets stabbed.

Actually come to think of it, it came off as weird in the books too.

 

[Psychopav]

I'm not sure how they're going to pull off the whole Jon Snow deciding to go to war with Ramsey. He's been pretty steadfast in keeping his vows - turning down Stannis' offer to become Lord of Winterfell, etc. It will be awkward when he reverses course and as a result, gets stabbed.

Actually come to think of it, it came off as weird in the books too.

Might be the narrative purpose for bringing Sansa to Winterfell.

 

[PatsWillWin]

I'm not sure how they're going to pull off the whole Jon Snow deciding to go to war with Ramsey. He's been pretty steadfast in keeping his vows - turning down Stannis' offer to become Lord of Winterfell, etc. It will be awkward when he reverses course and as a result, gets stabbed.

Actually come to think of it, it came off as weird in the books too.

Might be the narrative purpose for bringing Sansa to Winterfell.

I guess, but he didn't leave for Ned or Robb, seems odd that he would for Sansa. I'm not even sure they have a scene together in the entire show.

 

[thecatch]

I'm not sure how they're going to pull off the whole Jon Snow deciding to go to war with Ramsey. He's been pretty steadfast in keeping his vows - turning down Stannis' offer to become Lord of Winterfell, etc. It will be awkward when he reverses course and as a result, gets stabbed.

Actually come to think of it, it came off as weird in the books too.

Yeah that seemed very abrupt and out of character in the book.

 

[PatsWillWin]

I'm not sure how they're going to pull off the whole Jon Snow deciding to go to war with Ramsey. He's been pretty steadfast in keeping his vows - turning down Stannis' offer to become Lord of Winterfell, etc. It will be awkward when he reverses course and as a result, gets stabbed.

Actually come to think of it, it came off as weird in the books too.

Yeah that seemed very abrupt and out of character in the book.

Yeah he seemingly was all-in on the whole shield of the realm thing, sits there was his father and three brothers (he thinks three) are killed. Then he gets a letter from Ramsay basically being like "YOU'RE CHICKEN" and he's like #### it, I'm bailing.

I may be remembering it wrong, haven't reread that one in awhile.

 

[thecatch]

I'm not sure how they're going to pull off the whole Jon Snow deciding to go to war with Ramsey. He's been pretty steadfast in keeping his vows - turning down Stannis' offer to become Lord of Winterfell, etc. It will be awkward when he reverses course and as a result, gets stabbed.

Actually come to think of it, it came off as weird in the books too.

Yeah that seemed very abrupt and out of character in the book.

Yeah he seemingly was all-in on the whole shield of the realm thing, sits there was his father and three brothers (he thinks three) are killed. Then he gets a letter from Ramsay basically being like "YOU'RE CHICKEN" and he's like #### it, I'm bailing.

I may be remembering it wrong, haven't reread that one in awhile.

That's how I remember it. And it wasn't like he was going to run off and join Stannis alone, he was bringing at least some of the Nights Watch too IIRC, which is an institutional betrayal a step or ten beyond just an individual instance of oath breaking like he had previously contemplated.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

In the show jon probably gets a raven from sansa telling of ramsays acts and bails due to that.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

I'm not sure how they're going to pull off the whole Jon Snow deciding to go to war with Ramsey. He's been pretty steadfast in keeping his vows - turning down Stannis' offer to become Lord of Winterfell, etc. It will be awkward when he reverses course and as a result, gets stabbed.

Actually come to think of it, it came off as weird in the books too.

Yeah that seemed very abrupt and out of character in the book.

Yeah he seemingly was all-in on the whole shield of the realm thing, sits there was his father and three brothers (he thinks three) are killed. Then he gets a letter from Ramsay basically being like "YOU'RE CHICKEN" and he's like #### it, I'm bailing.

I may be remembering it wrong, haven't reread that one in awhile.

Book-only stuff below.....

It's not nearly the same Jon by the time he gets Ramsay's letter, though.

Here's a link to the first of a five part essay on Jon's arc through ADWD.

https://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/2013/10/14/other-wars-part-i-jons-noble-heart-and-greater-duty/

To me, anyway, it makes a good case that Jon's reaction to Ramsay's letter wasn't as abrupt as it seemed to many of us when we first read the book. The essays are pretty long and may go deeper than most of you care about, but check them out if you're interested in this stuff.

Below is basically the essayists mission statement on this subject.

Spoiler

Jon’s arc in ADWD, like Dany’s, is very cleverly designed by Martin as a test of his core values. But while Dany’s wrenching moral struggles were front and center, Jon’s take the form of subtle temptations. Most of Jon’s screentime, as mentioned, shows his impressively competent and far-sighted leadership regarding the wildlings and the Others. These actions involve very little moral compromise on his part, and his main antagonists on those fronts are small-minded bigots. So it’s no accident that Jon comes off looking quite good.

Yet, interspersed with all this, every few chapters, Martin presents Jon with a new temptation to get involved in the affairs of the North in some way. These temptations differ, and while some play into Jon’s more selfish desires, the crueler ones take advantage of Jon’s deep-seated moral impulses — justice, compassion, and love. Can Jon “take no part” if it means a monster will win a war against a righteous man? If it means his sister will be raped for the rest of her life by the devil incarnate? If it means some other young girl will be forcibly married and raped by her uncle? And what if “taking part” in any of these means placing the Watch and its larger struggle at great risk?

These questions are the heart of the arc Martin has built for Jon in ADWD. Jon’s answers reveal what he values most, and what kind of a person and ruler he is becoming. For as the book goes on, Jon starts giving in to these temptations to “take part” more and more. And in each case, Jon decides what to do quickly, and then moves on to deal with other issues, with the consequences of his choices not immediately apparent.

But his choices matter, and they will lead inexorably to his downfall.

 

[Swing 51]

Been a while since I read AFFC (or was the following in ADWD?) does Snow know that is Jeyne Poole and not Arya that is betrothed to Ramsay? He doesn't right? And that is why he struggles with the decision to rescue his "sister".

 

[Frostillicus]

In the show jon probably gets a raven from sansa telling of ramsays acts and bails due to that.

I can see this. Remember, Ramsay just told Sansa that Jon was Supreme Commander or whatever.

 

[parrot]

Been a while since I read AFFC (or was the following in ADWD?) does Snow know that is Jeyne Poole and not Arya that is betrothed to Ramsay? He doesn't right? And that is why he struggles with the decision to rescue his "sister".

He knows nothing.

 

[sn0mm1s]

Been a while since I read AFFC (or was the following in ADWD?) does Snow know that is Jeyne Poole and not Arya that is betrothed to Ramsay? He doesn't right? And that is why he struggles with the decision to rescue his "sister".

In the North, the only person who know for certain (based on POVs) is Reek/Theon. Jaime strongly implies (when telling Brienne not to try to rescue the fake Arya) that Roose knows. Other than that it is all guesswork but we can assume that it is a well kept secret. Reek/Theon was chosen to give the bride away because he was the only one around who would be able to identify Arya.

 

[Swing 51]

Thanks guys

 

[parrot]

Also, why does Martin hate Jeyne Poole? Her father is killed, she's forced into prostitution, given to Ramsay Bolton, then gets frostbite and loses her nose escaping with Theon. Maybe she secretly IS a Stark the way George is treating her.

 

[Swing 51]

then gets frostbite and loses her nose escaping with Theon

yeah I need to reread the last two books

 

[parrot]

then gets frostbite and loses her nose escaping with Theon

yeah I need to reread the last two books

Actually I think that is from one of the released WoW chapters. Hope it wasn't a spoiler for anyone.

 

[sn0mm1s]

then gets frostbite and loses her nose escaping with Theon

yeah I need to reread the last two books

Pretty sure that isn't in the last two books. It is in a sample chapter from the upcoming book.

 

[Swing 51]

Well then I need to read the sample chapters again!

 

[shuke]

See TV thread for my GRRM encounter.

 

[KarmaPolice]

See TV thread for my GRRM encounter.

If this is legit, pm or spoiler the hints he gave you.

 

[SeveredHorseHeads]

See TV thread for my GRRM encounter.

Spill the beans on the hints!

 

[Sabertooth]

See TV thread for my GRRM encounter.

nah. I'm good.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

See TV thread for my GRRM encounter.

He looks more like GRRM than Chet's guy looked like Joe Pesci, but that's isn't really him, right?

 

[KarmaPolice]

See TV thread for my GRRM encounter.

He looks more like GRRM than Chet's guy looked like Joe Pesci, but that's isn't really him, right?

Definitely doesn't look fat or smelly enough.

 

[parrot]

See TV thread for my GRRM encounter.

He looks more like GRRM than Chet's guy looked like Joe Pesci, but that's isn't really him, right?

Definitely doesn't look fat or smelly enough.

Or hairy enough. That guy looks like he actually trims his beard a couple times a year.

 

[Gr00vus]

See TV thread for my GRRM encounter.

He looks more like GRRM than Chet's guy looked like Joe Pesci, but that's isn't really him, right?

Definitely doesn't look fat or smelly enough.

Definitely him.

 

[KarmaPolice]

See TV thread for my GRRM encounter.

He looks more like GRRM than Chet's guy looked like Joe Pesci, but that's isn't really him, right?

Definitely doesn't look fat or smelly enough.

Definitely him.

I still stand by my comment.

 

[shuke]

He actually never said he was GRRM but was talking as if he wrote the books.

 

[parrot]

He actually never said he was GRRM but was talking as if he wrote the books.

Words are wind.

 

[SeveredHorseHeads]

He actually never said he was GRRM but was talking as if he wrote the books.

Pretending to be GRRM would be epic shtick.

 

[Gr00vus]

I hope you gave him grief for his part in inflicting Beauty And The Beast on the world.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I hope you gave him grief for his part in inflicting Beauty And The Beast on the world.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

Pick looked more like mark addy with a beard.

 

[Maelstrom]

I'm not sure how they're going to pull off the whole Jon Snow deciding to go to war with Ramsey. He's been pretty steadfast in keeping his vows - turning down Stannis' offer to become Lord of Winterfell, etc. It will be awkward when he reverses course and as a result, gets stabbed.

Actually come to think of it, it came off as weird in the books too.

Yeah that seemed very abrupt and out of character in the book.

Yeah he seemingly was all-in on the whole shield of the realm thing, sits there was his father and three brothers (he thinks three) are killed. Then he gets a letter from Ramsay basically being like "YOU'RE CHICKEN" and he's like #### it, I'm bailing.

I may be remembering it wrong, haven't reread that one in awhile.

Book-only stuff below.....

It's not nearly the same Jon by the time he gets Ramsay's letter, though.

Here's a link to the first of a five part essay on Jon's arc through ADWD.

https://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/2013/10/14/other-wars-part-i-jons-noble-heart-and-greater-duty/

To me, anyway, it makes a good case that Jon's reaction to Ramsay's letter wasn't as abrupt as it seemed to many of us when we first read the book. The essays are pretty long and may go deeper than most of you care about, but check them out if you're interested in this stuff.

Below is basically the essayists mission statement on this subject.

Spoiler

Jon’s arc in ADWD, like Dany’s, is very cleverly designed by Martin as a test of his core values. But while Dany’s wrenching moral struggles were front and center, Jon’s take the form of subtle temptations. Most of Jon’s screentime, as mentioned, shows his impressively competent and far-sighted leadership regarding the wildlings and the Others. These actions involve very little moral compromise on his part, and his main antagonists on those fronts are small-minded bigots. So it’s no accident that Jon comes off looking quite good.

Yet, interspersed with all this, every few chapters, Martin presents Jon with a new temptation to get involved in the affairs of the North in some way. These temptations differ, and while some play into Jon’s more selfish desires, the crueler ones take advantage of Jon’s deep-seated moral impulses — justice, compassion, and love. Can Jon “take no part” if it means a monster will win a war against a righteous man? If it means his sister will be raped for the rest of her life by the devil incarnate? If it means some other young girl will be forcibly married and raped by her uncle? And what if “taking part” in any of these means placing the Watch and its larger struggle at great risk?

These questions are the heart of the arc Martin has built for Jon in ADWD. Jon’s answers reveal what he values most, and what kind of a person and ruler he is becoming. For as the book goes on, Jon starts giving in to these temptations to “take part” more and more. And in each case, Jon decides what to do quickly, and then moves on to deal with other issues, with the consequences of his choices not immediately apparent.

But his choices matter, and they will lead inexorably to his downfall.

Well crap, now I definitely need to re-read the series, particularly books 4 and 5. I've been planning to do that once we knew when book 6 was released, but after reading that essay, I realize how much I missed or forgot in those 2 books. I'll probably pick them up again as soon as the show concludes. Thanks for the link, fascinating.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

That's how I felt with the stuff about the Houses originally pledged to the Starks. Tons of stuff going on if you read slow and check out work others have done.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

The boy Littlefinger has for Olenna is the one who accuses Cersei. It's why she was arrested at the end.

I don't think so. The "boy" is Lancel Lannister and given his attitude lately I doubt he's willing to do Petyr's bidding.

Do you think he'd lie and deny doing Cercei just to avoid doing Petyr's bidding?

 

[Uruk-Hai]

That's how I felt with the stuff about the Houses originally pledged to the Starks. Tons of stuff going on if you read slow and check out work others have done.

I have missed EVERY major theory while reading.

Every. Single. One.

R+L=J flew right over my head until Al Gore's internet clued me in after book 3. I kind of knew something was odd with the Ned/Jon dynamic, but didn't give it too much thought. I had enough problem keeping all of the Florents whose names started with "A" straight to think below the surface.

The stuff similar to the essay I posted above is way beyond my comprehension, but makes sense when I have it spoon-fed to me.

 

[PatsWillWin]

The boy Littlefinger has for Olenna is the one who accuses Cersei. It's why she was arrested at the end.

I don't think so. The "boy" is Lancel Lannister and given his attitude lately I doubt he's willing to do Petyr's bidding.

Do you think he'd lie and deny doing Cercei just to avoid doing Petyr's bidding?

I don't think he'd have anything to do with Petry anymore. He's gone full crazy. They certainly didn't seen to have an amenable relationship when Lancel threatened Petyr in the street.

 

[PatsWillWin]

That's how I felt with the stuff about the Houses originally pledged to the Starks. Tons of stuff going on if you read slow and check out work others have done.

I have missed EVERY major theory while reading.

Every. Single. One.

R+L=J flew right over my head until Al Gore's internet clued me in after book 3. I kind of knew something was odd with the Ned/Jon dynamic, but didn't give it too much thought. I had enough problem keeping all of the Florents whose names started with "A" straight to think below the surface.

The stuff similar to the essay I posted above is way beyond my comprehension, but makes sense when I have it spoon-fed to me.

I'm not sure how they're going to pull off the whole Jon Snow deciding to go to war with Ramsey. He's been pretty steadfast in keeping his vows - turning down Stannis' offer to become Lord of Winterfell, etc. It will be awkward when he reverses course and as a result, gets stabbed.

Actually come to think of it, it came off as weird in the books too.

Yeah that seemed very abrupt and out of character in the book.

Yeah he seemingly was all-in on the whole shield of the realm thing, sits there was his father and three brothers (he thinks three) are killed. Then he gets a letter from Ramsay basically being like "YOU'RE CHICKEN" and he's like #### it, I'm bailing.

I may be remembering it wrong, haven't reread that one in awhile.

Book-only stuff below.....

It's not nearly the same Jon by the time he gets Ramsay's letter, though.

Here's a link to the first of a five part essay on Jon's arc through ADWD.

https://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/2013/10/14/other-wars-part-i-jons-noble-heart-and-greater-duty/

To me, anyway, it makes a good case that Jon's reaction to Ramsay's letter wasn't as abrupt as it seemed to many of us when we first read the book. The essays are pretty long and may go deeper than most of you care about, but check them out if you're interested in this stuff.

Below is basically the essayists mission statement on this subject.

Spoiler

Jon’s arc in ADWD, like Dany’s, is very cleverly designed by Martin as a test of his core values. But while Dany’s wrenching moral struggles were front and center, Jon’s take the form of subtle temptations. Most of Jon’s screentime, as mentioned, shows his impressively competent and far-sighted leadership regarding the wildlings and the Others. These actions involve very little moral compromise on his part, and his main antagonists on those fronts are small-minded bigots. So it’s no accident that Jon comes off looking quite good.

Yet, interspersed with all this, every few chapters, Martin presents Jon with a new temptation to get involved in the affairs of the North in some way. These temptations differ, and while some play into Jon’s more selfish desires, the crueler ones take advantage of Jon’s deep-seated moral impulses — justice, compassion, and love. Can Jon “take no part” if it means a monster will win a war against a righteous man? If it means his sister will be raped for the rest of her life by the devil incarnate? If it means some other young girl will be forcibly married and raped by her uncle? And what if “taking part” in any of these means placing the Watch and its larger struggle at great risk?

These questions are the heart of the arc Martin has built for Jon in ADWD. Jon’s answers reveal what he values most, and what kind of a person and ruler he is becoming. For as the book goes on, Jon starts giving in to these temptations to “take part” more and more. And in each case, Jon decides what to do quickly, and then moves on to deal with other issues, with the consequences of his choices not immediately apparent.

But his choices matter, and they will lead inexorably to his downfall.

Spoiler

Well crap, now I definitely need to re-read the series, particularly books 4 and 5. I've been planning to do that once we knew when book 6 was released, but after reading that essay, I realize how much I missed or forgot in those 2 books. I'll probably pick them up again as soon as the show concludes. Thanks for the link, fascinating.

I'm re-reading. I think I was somewhat bored by the time I got to book 5.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

That's how I felt with the stuff about the Houses originally pledged to the Starks. Tons of stuff going on if you read slow and check out work others have done.

I have missed EVERY major theory while reading.

Every. Single. One.

R+L=J flew right over my head until Al Gore's internet clued me in after book 3. I kind of knew something was odd with the Ned/Jon dynamic, but didn't give it too much thought. I had enough problem keeping all of the Florents whose names started with "A" straight to think below the surface.

The stuff similar to the essay I posted above is way beyond my comprehension, but makes sense when I have it spoon-fed to me.

Spoiler

I had the idea that Jon wasn't necessarily Eddards, but was nowhere near R+L.

I completely whiffed on the Great Northern Conspiracy -- which is one of the best developed IMO. I love the detective work people did on that one going all the way back to the first book.

The theory that I did have the gist of and can't wait to find out about is Roose Bolton. I don't think he's human (or at least not 100% human).

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

The boy Littlefinger has for Olenna is the one who accuses Cersei. It's why she was arrested at the end.

I don't think so. The "boy" is Lancel Lannister and given his attitude lately I doubt he's willing to do Petyr's bidding.

Do you think he'd lie and deny doing Cersei just to avoid doing Petyr's bidding?

I don't think he'd have anything to do with Petry anymore. He's gone full crazy. They certainly didn't seen to have an amenable relationship when Lancel threatened Petyr in the street.

Right, that's my take as well, and I think it supports Instinctive's assertion.

If Lancel is asked by the High Sparrow to provide testimony against Cersei, he will do so. Therefore, Cersei will be (at this point, was) accused and will be put on trial.

Petyr knows this. Therefore, the "boy" he has for Olenna is in fact Lancel. Petyr will tell Olenna about Lancel and Cersei, Olenna will tell the High Sparrow about Lancel and Cersei, and the High Sparrow will do with Cersei as he's done with Loras and Margaery.

In other words, when Petyr told Olenna, "I have a boy for you" (or whatever the exact wording was -- I think it was a "handsome" boy or some such), he didn't mean, "I have a boy for you who is fond of me and will do my bidding." He meant, "I know someone who'll make a good witness against Cersei; I'll tell you about him and you can approach the High Sparrow with the information."

I'm not 100% that Lancel is the "boy" Petyr had for Olenna, but that's what it seems like based on what we've seen so far.