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HC Bill Belichick, (4 Viewers)

In all honesty I think they won it all when they had legit talent on both sides of the ball and were not using smoke and mirrors which they did some years (like 2006)...I have always said when BB the GM gave BB the HC legit talent they won titles.
Eliminate 2006 from the discussion (we can agree their receiving options were poor . . . yet they still were up 21-6 in the AFCCG against IND that year). Did they not have legit talent on both sides of the ball in 2007, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2015, or 2017? Those were the best offensive teams by ranking in their run. IMO, 2007 was their best overall team out of all of them (but obviously fell short on a fluke catch). I get that they couldn't have won every year, but I don't think inferior talent was much of a concern until the very end.
 
In all honesty I think they won it all when they had legit talent on both sides of the ball and were not using smoke and mirrors which they did some years (like 2006)...I have always said when BB the GM gave BB the HC legit talent they won titles.
Eliminate 2006 from the discussion (we can agree their receiving options were poor . . . yet they still were up 21-6 in the AFCCG against IND that year). Did they not have legit talent on both sides of the ball in 2007, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2015, or 2017? Those were the best offensive teams by ranking in their run. IMO, 2007 was their best overall team out of all of them (but obviously fell short on a fluke catch). I get that they couldn't have won every year, but I don't think inferior talent was much of a concern until the very end.

I should have said making that extra move because they were always good...I think Revis and Browner put them over the top in 14...having Bennett in 2016 was a monster difference...Gilmore was a game-changer in 2018 and using a #1 on Michel was another move that paid dividends...nitpicking a little here but there were years when you just knew they did not have enough and could have made another move or two to win a title which is pretty crazy when you consider what they actually accomplished.
 
https://twitter.com/JoeBanner13
@JoeBanner13

I don’t believe Belichick ever is a HC in the league again.
Will Josh McDaniels? Should he?
I'm actually surprised McDaniels has had this many chances outside of NE.

- Went 11-17 in his time as HC in DEN. Traded multiple picks to move into the first round to draft Tim Tebow.
- Served as OC for the Rams, who went 2-14 and ranked last in points scored and yardage.
- Was hired by the Colts and then resigned / turned down the offer.
- Went 9-16 with the Raiders, was never a favorite of the players or the front office.

I can't remember another coach that got that many opportunities. One would guess that no one else would take him as a HC again.
 
I should have said making that extra move because they were always good...I think Revis and Browner put them over the top in 14...having Bennett in 2016 was a monster difference...Gilmore was a game-changer in 2018 and using a #1 on Michel was another move that paid dividends...nitpicking a little here but there were years when you just knew they did not have enough and could have made another move or two to win a title which is pretty crazy when you consider what they actually accomplished.
The problem in playing Monday morning QB (or GM) in hindsight is we know that things didn't work out and since they didn't, we now assess those moves as failures. Michel paid dividends in the postseason as a rookie, but after that earned an overall poor draft grade. They needed OL help and drafted Wynn . . . which didn't work out long term (although they won a SB his rookie year). They knew they needed WR help and took Harry (which turned out to be a disaster all around). At the end of the Brady era, they did bring in some extra pieces like you mentioned . . . Gordon, AB, Patterson, Sanu, Dorsett, Jeremy Hill, Dwayne Allen, and signing Meyers as an UDFA. In fact, they added a lot of pieces. It still wasn't enough. But at least they tried to address areas of need. As you have pointed out, since then, they have frequently either ignored known issues or threw a band-aid on it. In 2019, I think they made a true effort to fix their areas of weakness.

The overarching issue in TB's last year was they played well against inferior teams and inferior QBs but struggled against better teams and established QBs. Brady was frustrated, didn't play well, and seemingly was hurt much of the year (at least that's what it sounded like after the season was over). Could a motivated and healthy Brady been enough for that team? Who knows, probably not though. From 2020 on, not really worth discussing, as the balloon had burst by then (and they made bad move after bad move).
 
Belichick has the same problem Pete Carroll has. No one wants to take on a guy who's over 70 years old, especially a team in rebuilding mode.

As Andrew Brandt tweeted earlier today (since deleted) - there's no Rooney Rule for old guys.
 
Belichick has the same problem Pete Carroll has. No one wants to take on a guy who's over 70 years old, especially a team in rebuilding mode.

As Andrew Brandt tweeted earlier today (since deleted) - there's no Rooney Rule for old guys.
It’s the Clint Eastwood rule. “Go ahead, make my day” with a 44 magnum pointed at the owner.

I say check your ego at the door and retire.
 
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I have heard in multiple places talk of Reid retiring and BB taking over in KC. I would tend to think that is wild speculation and click bait, but so many places have run with it that there may be something there (as crazy as that sounds).

That was all over radio yesterday.
I know. It was all over radio and TV yesterday. I saw similar conjecture on podcasts, on YouTube, on X, etc. several days ago. Florio and someone else said that there is a team currently with a HC that is very interested in BB, and at the time it was thought to be a team still playing. Dallas was already out of it, and it didn’t seem to make any sense. The puzzle pieces seem to align that it fits a specific narrative (although I would think it’s probably a long shot).
It makes so much sense though, IF Reid chooses to walk away.
 
I have heard in multiple places talk of Reid retiring and BB taking over in KC. I would tend to think that is wild speculation and click bait, but so many places have run with it that there may be something there (as crazy as that sounds).

That was all over radio yesterday.
I know. It was all over radio and TV yesterday. I saw similar conjecture on podcasts, on YouTube, on X, etc. several days ago. Florio and someone else said that there is a team currently with a HC that is very interested in BB, and at the time it was thought to be a team still playing. Dallas was already out of it, and it didn’t seem to make any sense. The puzzle pieces seem to align that it fits a specific narrative (although I would think it’s probably a long shot).
It makes so much sense though, IF Reid chooses to walk away.
Why would Reid be any closer to retirement than BB? This sounds like click bait to me.
 
Seems like Reid and Belichick have 2 different cultures, would Belichek's work in KC where there's already a culture with established success?
 
I have heard in multiple places talk of Reid retiring and BB taking over in KC. I would tend to think that is wild speculation and click bait, but so many places have run with it that there may be something there (as crazy as that sounds).

That was all over radio yesterday.
I know. It was all over radio and TV yesterday. I saw similar conjecture on podcasts, on YouTube, on X, etc. several days ago. Florio and someone else said that there is a team currently with a HC that is very interested in BB, and at the time it was thought to be a team still playing. Dallas was already out of it, and it didn’t seem to make any sense. The puzzle pieces seem to align that it fits a specific narrative (although I would think it’s probably a long shot).
It makes so much sense though, IF Reid chooses to walk away.
Why would Reid be any closer to retirement than BB? This sounds like click bait to me.

He will be 66 in March and has had an amazing career...pretty easy to see why anyone would be thinking of retiring in that scenario (especially if they win another title)...BB and Carroll are more of the outliers wanting to continue at their age...and I say that as a Pats fan who would like to see BB retire.
 
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On his radio show, Boomer Esiason reported / suggested / said someone told him that BB was offered the ATL job and Bill turned it down. Boomer didn't have much more to say and didn't know why Bill said no, if the money wasn't right, if BB wanted more control, or if Belichick was happy to take a season off. Maybe this is spin doctoring on Bill's part to show that he could have been still coaching if he wanted in order to set up more opportunities for next year.
 
I began as a reporter when things were crumbling even more. The Internet had smashed the newspaper industry but many found a way to survive. This was about round two of the smashing. It didn't affect me but I noticed all these people losing jobs. The years later, next phase, of smashing was reports of newspaper owners and Publishers insisting on spins. I imagine -ya wanna keep your job, write it with this result. This was mostly politics. Some people I knew at well known "blogzine" sites were starting to get this "twisting" due to upcoming laws. The few friends I mentioned all would quit months later- different job than they signed up for, unhappy, etc.

Ok soooo 2024- I'm not a reporter. I have no inside info whatsoever.
My thoughts-

Why are they running that Belichick special and so many Patriots players saying this isn't true, it didn't happen like that etc?

Why are the same writers that wrote of BB spending a thurs-sun long weekend w Blank n McKay just before Morris was hired, now saying he was fourth.

Those articles mentioned a disagreement on personnel issues so wait didn't I just see...quick Google, same reporters weeks later writing that BB didn't want control of personnel.

What's going on? What's going on!
Why are there so many contradictions?

It's very weird.
 
The latest Wickersham ESPN article has been making the rounds on Boston sports talk radio this morning. The Patriots released a statement denying that Robert Kraft had anything negative to say about BB when he spoke to Arthur Blank of the Falcons. The statement reflects that if the Kraft's didn't trust BB, they would not have kept him as HC for 24 years. Wickersham has always played fast and loose with his reporting on NE (always anonymous sources, never any direct quotes, almost always connecting a lot of dots). In this case, he cites two anonymous sources who did not talk to either Kraft or Blank, but somehow those sources have detailed knowledge of what the two owners said in their private phone conversation.
 
I have heard in multiple places talk of Reid retiring and BB taking over in KC. I would tend to think that is wild speculation and click bait, but so many places have run with it that there may be something there (as crazy as that sounds).

That was all over radio yesterday.
I know. It was all over radio and TV yesterday. I saw similar conjecture on podcasts, on YouTube, on X, etc. several days ago. Florio and someone else said that there is a team currently with a HC that is very interested in BB, and at the time it was thought to be a team still playing. Dallas was already out of it, and it didn’t seem to make any sense. The puzzle pieces seem to align that it fits a specific narrative (although I would think it’s probably a long shot).
It makes so much sense though, IF Reid chooses to walk away.
Why would Reid be any closer to retirement than BB? This sounds like click bait to me.

He will be 66 in March and has had an amazing career...pretty easy to see why anyone would be thinking of retiring in that scenario (especially if they win another title)...BB and Carroll are more of the outliers wanting to continue at their age...and I say that as a Pats fan who would like to see BB retire.

Reid is a lifer who has given his life to the game at the expense of his family, as he has admitted many times that he was never home.

At this point I don`t see him leaving for a long time.
 
The latest Wickersham ESPN article has been making the rounds on Boston sports talk radio this morning. The Patriots released a statement denying that Robert Kraft had anything negative to say about BB when he spoke to Arthur Blank of the Falcons. The statement reflects that if the Kraft's didn't trust BB, they would not have kept him as HC for 24 years. Wickersham has always played fast and loose with his reporting on NE (always anonymous sources, never any direct quotes, almost always connecting a lot of dots). In this case, he cites two anonymous sources who did not talk to either Kraft or Blank, but somehow those sources have detailed knowledge of what the two owners said in their private phone conversation.
Wickersham's source: "trust me bro"
 
Fantastic article. This is not the first indication of a well-known phenomenon. Ownership and staff are driven by fear and self-interest.

Belichick's brand of dual GM/head coach leadership has not fallen completely out of favor in the NFL. The 49ers and Chiefs, this year's Super Bowl contestants, both use strong head-coach models.

But most team owners are loath to grant a single person as much power as Belichick wielded in New England, even with his career results. Owners now value collaboration and cooperation among football operations, the coaching staff and other team executives.


Cowards.
 
I absolutely buy the article and the sourcing.

That documentary told me all I needed to know about how the Krafts feel about him so not surprising their comments in private were not very good.

Bill's track record the last few years as a team builder stunk. He might say he's good not having the dual role but who is going to tell him no? How long before he staffed the team out with his people?

I don't at all blame the people who work for teams like the Falcons and Commanders for not wanting to hire him. It's akin to cutting your own throat, job suicide, would go from collaboration to singularity in a hurry.

None of this is not to say he's not still a great coach. I truly believe that to be the case, but I just don't see a realistic scenario where he was going to stay in that lane and eventually want total control over how things are built and that's where the problem occurs both with respect to the product on the field and the jobs of the people who work for those teams.
 
I absolutely buy the article and the sourcing.

That documentary told me all I needed to know about how the Krafts feel about him so not surprising their comments in private were not very good.

Bill's track record the last few years as a team builder stunk. He might say he's good not having the dual role but who is going to tell him no? How long before he staffed the team out with his people?

I don't at all blame the people who work for teams like the Falcons and Commanders for not wanting to hire him. It's akin to cutting your own throat, job suicide, would go from collaboration to singularity in a hurry.

None of this is not to say he's not still a great coach. I truly believe that to be the case, but I just don't see a realistic scenario where he was going to stay in that lane and eventually want total control over how things are built and that's where the problem occurs both with respect to the product on the field and the jobs of the people who work for those teams.

The 49ers and Chiefs, this year's Super Bowl contestants, both use strong head-coach models.

The Chiefs were a nothing franchise for 50 years before bringing in "Eagles retread" Andy Reid. The 49ers were decades away from their former glory before bringing in Falcons failed offensive coordinator Mike Shanahan. Visionary leadership swings for the fences and trusts great football minds.
 
I absolutely buy the article and the sourcing.

That documentary told me all I needed to know about how the Krafts feel about him so not surprising their comments in private were not very good.

Bill's track record the last few years as a team builder stunk. He might say he's good not having the dual role but who is going to tell him no? How long before he staffed the team out with his people?

I don't at all blame the people who work for teams like the Falcons and Commanders for not wanting to hire him. It's akin to cutting your own throat, job suicide, would go from collaboration to singularity in a hurry.

None of this is not to say he's not still a great coach. I truly believe that to be the case, but I just don't see a realistic scenario where he was going to stay in that lane and eventually want total control over how things are built and that's where the problem occurs both with respect to the product on the field and the jobs of the people who work for those teams.
People can choose to believe or ignore whatever information they want. I personally believe the narrative that had ATL hired BB, he would have been a task master and held a boatload of people accountable . . . from the GM to the director of football operations and all of the front office, to the coaches, training staff, and a ton of behind-the-scenes game day people. Based on that, I think the people involved in the head coaching search had serious concerns that they would be on notice and in danger of losing their cushy jobs. That's the primary reason. But I think the secondary reason was they didn't want to pay BB what he expected to be paid. And the third reason ties in to the first one. I don't really think the Falcons wanted to bring someone in as a strong leader to fix things the way they need to be fixed. They wanted to bring in someone to have a limited voice as a head coach that would go along with whatever the owner and the GM wanted, and that's not Bill.
 
I absolutely buy the article and the sourcing.

That documentary told me all I needed to know about how the Krafts feel about him so not surprising their comments in private were not very good.

Bill's track record the last few years as a team builder stunk. He might say he's good not having the dual role but who is going to tell him no? How long before he staffed the team out with his people?

I don't at all blame the people who work for teams like the Falcons and Commanders for not wanting to hire him. It's akin to cutting your own throat, job suicide, would go from collaboration to singularity in a hurry.

None of this is not to say he's not still a great coach. I truly believe that to be the case, but I just don't see a realistic scenario where he was going to stay in that lane and eventually want total control over how things are built and that's where the problem occurs both with respect to the product on the field and the jobs of the people who work for those teams.

The 49ers and Chiefs, this year's Super Bowl contestants, both use strong head-coach models.

The Chiefs were a nothing franchise for 50 years before bringing in "Eagles retread" Andy Reid. The 49ers were decades away from their former glory before bringing in Falcons failed offensive coordinator Mike Shanahan. Visionary leadership swings for the fences and trusts great football minds.
And?
 
I absolutely buy the article and the sourcing.

That documentary told me all I needed to know about how the Krafts feel about him so not surprising their comments in private were not very good.

Bill's track record the last few years as a team builder stunk. He might say he's good not having the dual role but who is going to tell him no? How long before he staffed the team out with his people?

I don't at all blame the people who work for teams like the Falcons and Commanders for not wanting to hire him. It's akin to cutting your own throat, job suicide, would go from collaboration to singularity in a hurry.

None of this is not to say he's not still a great coach. I truly believe that to be the case, but I just don't see a realistic scenario where he was going to stay in that lane and eventually want total control over how things are built and that's where the problem occurs both with respect to the product on the field and the jobs of the people who work for those teams.
This was 100% my takeaway from all the recent articles. I don't care who the sources were, or even if there were none. I don't see how anyone who saw that documentary could come away from it without seeing how blatantly they ran Bill over with the bus. And then backed it up over his corpse again for good measure. Maybe it wasn't that bad through the years, but as of now, there is no love lost between the Krafts and BB.
 
I absolutely buy the article and the sourcing.

That documentary told me all I needed to know about how the Krafts feel about him so not surprising their comments in private were not very good.

Bill's track record the last few years as a team builder stunk. He might say he's good not having the dual role but who is going to tell him no? How long before he staffed the team out with his people?

I don't at all blame the people who work for teams like the Falcons and Commanders for not wanting to hire him. It's akin to cutting your own throat, job suicide, would go from collaboration to singularity in a hurry.

None of this is not to say he's not still a great coach. I truly believe that to be the case, but I just don't see a realistic scenario where he was going to stay in that lane and eventually want total control over how things are built and that's where the problem occurs both with respect to the product on the field and the jobs of the people who work for those teams.
This was 100% my takeaway from all the recent articles. I don't care who the sources were, or even if there were none. I don't see how anyone who saw that documentary could come away from it without seeing how blatantly they ran Bill over with the bus. And then backed it up over his corpse again for good measure. Maybe it wasn't that bad through the years, but as of now, there is no love lost between the Krafts and BB.
So then how do you interpret all the players saying it was untrue?
 
That ESPN article feels like BS to me.

I'm pretty surprised they'd run it. I don't know Van Natta but that feels way below Wickersham and Fowler. Feels like desperate gossip clickbait.
 
References are an interesting thing.

I know in my case, I will never give a bad reference. Even if I believed it. Just no upside.

Because inevitably, it'll get back to the person.

And the upside to me is next to nothing. I don't really care if a competitor hires someone I think is not good. In fact, I'd prefer they do.

So virtually zero upside. And huge downside, like we're seeing here for Kraft.
 
I absolutely buy the article and the sourcing.

That documentary told me all I needed to know about how the Krafts feel about him so not surprising their comments in private were not very good.

Bill's track record the last few years as a team builder stunk. He might say he's good not having the dual role but who is going to tell him no? How long before he staffed the team out with his people?

I don't at all blame the people who work for teams like the Falcons and Commanders for not wanting to hire him. It's akin to cutting your own throat, job suicide, would go from collaboration to singularity in a hurry.

None of this is not to say he's not still a great coach. I truly believe that to be the case, but I just don't see a realistic scenario where he was going to stay in that lane and eventually want total control over how things are built and that's where the problem occurs both with respect to the product on the field and the jobs of the people who work for those teams.
This was 100% my takeaway from all the recent articles. I don't care who the sources were, or even if there were none. I don't see how anyone who saw that documentary could come away from it without seeing how blatantly they ran Bill over with the bus. And then backed it up over his corpse again for good measure. Maybe it wasn't that bad through the years, but as of now, there is no love lost between the Krafts and BB.
So then how do you interpret all the players saying it was untrue?
Pretty simple really. The Krafts were not the least bit complimentary of Bill and tried to not give him a lot of credit for the success, some of the players who spoke up don't think that was right.
 
You can fall into the trap of thinking one side is telling the truth, and one said is lying, or one side is good, and the other is bad in any dispute.

You can believe that Belichick is an arrogant old man who was willing to say whatever Blank wanted to hear to get the job, and immediately try and take over.
Or maybe thinking Kraft is bitter and sabotaging BB in every call with other owners.

Both of these things being true feels right.

Fact is, BB didn't get a job. Why not? All these other owners were influenced by Kraft? They don't have minds of their own? Maybe BB should have made more friends in the NFL. One would think after 40 years in the league, he'd have a couple
 
BB needed to go to a team that had both a HC and GM vacancy, because it’s hard to see him coaching any team where he doesn’t also have final say in personnel decisions. It seemed like a longshot with McKay and Fontenot still around in Atlanta, and Dallas made sense except it seems Jerry Jones still prefers his head coaches to be subservient. I don’t remember the Chargers being in the running this offseason considering they had both vacancies, but that may be because Harbaugh was the target all along.
 
I think it's understandable how Belichick would not get a job. A defensive minded guy that is a tough disciplinarian and not warm and fuzzy is a tough sell. Especially given the falloff post Brady.

What I don't buy is Robert Kraft out there actively trying to torpedo him. That just doesn't make any sense in my opinion and has zero upside with tons of downside.

To be fair, he's demonstrated a clear history of making really dumb choices so maybe I'm giving him too much credit.
 
I absolutely buy the article and the sourcing.

That documentary told me all I needed to know about how the Krafts feel about him so not surprising their comments in private were not very good.

Bill's track record the last few years as a team builder stunk. He might say he's good not having the dual role but who is going to tell him no? How long before he staffed the team out with his people?

I don't at all blame the people who work for teams like the Falcons and Commanders for not wanting to hire him. It's akin to cutting your own throat, job suicide, would go from collaboration to singularity in a hurry.

None of this is not to say he's not still a great coach. I truly believe that to be the case, but I just don't see a realistic scenario where he was going to stay in that lane and eventually want total control over how things are built and that's where the problem occurs both with respect to the product on the field and the jobs of the people who work for those teams.
This was 100% my takeaway from all the recent articles. I don't care who the sources were, or even if there were none. I don't see how anyone who saw that documentary could come away from it without seeing how blatantly they ran Bill over with the bus. And then backed it up over his corpse again for good measure. Maybe it wasn't that bad through the years, but as of now, there is no love lost between the Krafts and BB.
So then how do you interpret all the players saying it was untrue?
Pretty simple really. The Krafts were not the least bit complimentary of Bill and tried to not give him a lot of credit for the success, some of the players who spoke up don't think that was right.
So one instance takes away like 1000 instances where the Kraft's did?
 
References are an interesting thing.

I know in my case, I will never give a bad reference. Even if I believed it. Just no upside.

Because inevitably, it'll get back to the person.

And the upside to me is next to nothing. I don't really care if a competitor hires someone I think is not good. In fact, I'd prefer they do.

So virtually zero upside. And huge downside, like we're seeing here for Kraft.
I agree with you, but there's another point to consider. It can be argued that Kraft and other owners view themselves as belonging to a privileged oligarchy which is effectively above he law hiding behind the Goodell shield. In this "old white guys private club" people can be blackballed (Ray Rice, Colin Montgomery, etc.) without the same consequences that you are I would face if we tried that in "polite society". I'm not sure if Bob threw Bill under the bus, but I doubt backlash factored into his calculus.
 
BB needed to go to a team that had both a HC and GM vacancy, because it’s hard to see him coaching any team where he doesn’t also have final say in personnel decisions. It seemed like a longshot with McKay and Fontenot still around in Atlanta, and Dallas made sense except it seems Jerry Jones still prefers his head coaches to be subservient. I don’t remember the Chargers being in the running this offseason considering they had both vacancies, but that may be because Harbaugh was the target all along.
Harbaugh was given a suite at the Clippers or some team and...I knew then. I kept saying why do that if they're not and...it played out that way.
I don't recall where Vrabel did interview because he was scheduled and two or three teams hired someone else before he actually interviewed.
Belichick supposedly would have to understand with his track record that he wouldn't get both spots, then he was supposedly determined to do both and teams didn't like that, then supposedly he didn't ask either. Easy Google to see all three.

I love Fontenot because I think how he does is how every GM should. He seems egoless, all business, and is always adding guys to suit what the coach wants- adding types. That was absolutely an Arthur team. There were sooo many backups and role players that were totally for their schemes.
Sooo that was the situation and it's odd to me how it rarely gets mentioned anymore but what's a Morris team? Because he's coaching an Arthur one. A lot of the defenders will stick and mesh well. The base of the offense will mesh but some backups are already gone too.

Belichick can work with big WRs and multiple TEs and he'd probably love to have Bijan as he had Corey Dillon. Their OL came together late but were deep. Their DL has starters and backups injured and into street free agents. Belichick could easily work with those trenches. Great safety Bates meshed, Anderson, an intelligent LB meshed, Cordarelle, on and on and on.

Oh former Vrabel players would suit him too.

They were the rare win now situation.

It seems in the past month people forgot the injuries they've gone through. In 3-4 weeks, after the draft and post draft roster analysis comes out...writers will be saying they're pretty stacked again.

Back to Fontenot, he's gotta replace some departures but he's just getting backups that are Morris guys and continuing to be great. It's not like Belichick would have cared too too much if he makes a call to get his guy or Fontenot does. That was overblown imo and many were really brushing aside some outstanding GM work
 
References are an interesting thing.

I know in my case, I will never give a bad reference. Even if I believed it. Just no upside.

Because inevitably, it'll get back to the person.

And the upside to me is next to nothing. I don't really care if a competitor hires someone I think is not good. In fact, I'd prefer they do.

So virtually zero upside. And huge downside, like we're seeing here for Kraft.
I agree with you, but there's another point to consider. It can be argued that Kraft and other owners view themselves as belonging to a privileged oligarchy which is effectively above he law hiding behind the Goodell shield. In this "old white guys private club" people can be blackballed (Ray Rice, Colin Montgomery, etc.) without the same consequences that you are I would face if we tried that in "polite society". I'm not sure if Bob threw Bill under the bus, but I doubt backlash factored into his calculus.
Leave race out of it, even if the owners are white. Their race has nothing to do with it.
 
I think it's understandable how Belichick would not get a job. A defensive minded guy that is a tough disciplinarian and not warm and fuzzy is a tough sell. Especially given the falloff post Brady.

What I don't buy is Robert Kraft out there actively trying to torpedo him. That just doesn't make any sense in my opinion and has zero upside with tons of downside.

To be fair, he's demonstrated a clear history of making really dumb choices so maybe I'm giving him too much credit.
I agree with this and I'll add in old and tired. I saw him and his team dismantle my Fins for years - he did some amazing things for the Patriots and the league, but there comes a time when things pass you by and it might just be his time. He didn't seem like the same guy the last few years and he was making some poor decisions on personnel and contracts, especially on offense. It really hurt the Pats.

The time comes for everyone and I think his time has come. Great coach who should have walked away a few years earlier.
 
How many wins away is BB from having the most career wins? 15? 17?
I know he was getting close and within 2 seasons.

All the success BB had....albeit with Brady leading a lot of it (right?) for me screams that BB should have gotten some more leash. Yes, some poor draft picks, yes, bombed on qb Mac Jones, and yes, they couldn't ever find a wr. But I would think a guy that coached 24 years and delivered all those titles, and was possibly within 2 years of having the most career wins,....you give him that latitude....right? As an owner, wouldn't you want to hitch that honor to your franchise? I would.

Maybe not. Kraft is still the same guy who made the strip parlor scandal go away and no one seems to talk about it anymore. I am sure as heck Kraft blackballed BB, and that's an effing shame
 
I think it's understandable how Belichick would not get a job. A defensive minded guy that is a tough disciplinarian and not warm and fuzzy is a tough sell. Especially given the falloff post Brady.

What I don't buy is Robert Kraft out there actively trying to torpedo him. That just doesn't make any sense in my opinion and has zero upside with tons of downside.

To be fair, he's demonstrated a clear history of making really dumb choices so maybe I'm giving him too much credit.
Yeah it just doesn't fit.
Their dynasty brought how many? 100? Glowing quotes from him about Belichick.

There's been a decline so if his conversations mentioned he was great then this happened...eh maybe I could see that.

The way I look at it is, Mac Jones (I don't think Cam Newton) was the unlucky soul that had to replace Brady. Before he was even drafted, that poor guy was destined to not be good enough. Now Jerrod Mayo is kind of in that same boat. Maybe he's Cowher or Tomlin or whoever and replaced a legend well, but there's some likelihood he's in that same situation. If so, then Kraft has to hire another replacement. Who is going to want to go there if he insulted or demeaned or tarnished the rep of the legendary coach? That replacement surely won't have as many wins as Belichick so won't he wonder "if he did that to BB, what's he going to do to little ol me?"
 
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Brady will write a book some day and it will be an interesting read about his perspectives regarding Kraft and BB. I’ll buy it.
 
I absolutely buy the article and the sourcing.

That documentary told me all I needed to know about how the Krafts feel about him so not surprising their comments in private were not very good.

Bill's track record the last few years as a team builder stunk. He might say he's good not having the dual role but who is going to tell him no? How long before he staffed the team out with his people?

I don't at all blame the people who work for teams like the Falcons and Commanders for not wanting to hire him. It's akin to cutting your own throat, job suicide, would go from collaboration to singularity in a hurry.

None of this is not to say he's not still a great coach. I truly believe that to be the case, but I just don't see a realistic scenario where he was going to stay in that lane and eventually want total control over how things are built and that's where the problem occurs both with respect to the product on the field and the jobs of the people who work for those teams.
This was 100% my takeaway from all the recent articles. I don't care who the sources were, or even if there were none. I don't see how anyone who saw that documentary could come away from it without seeing how blatantly they ran Bill over with the bus. And then backed it up over his corpse again for good measure. Maybe it wasn't that bad through the years, but as of now, there is no love lost between the Krafts and BB.
So then how do you interpret all the players saying it was untrue?
Not sure if we are on the same exact page here, so apologies if my post was worded poorly. I think the only ones who know what was said between Blank and Kraft are Blank and Kraft. And after the absolute smear campaign they pulled on Bill in one of the most disappointing documentaries I ever watched considering the excitement I had going into watching it; I don't think Kraft had anything good to say about Bill. I wasn't in the room, so I have no idea obviously. But he could not have gone more out of his way to not only strip much of the Patriots success over the past 20 years away from Bill, but actually try to sell it to the public they were succeeding IN SPITE of BB. I find that laughably outrageous. It's actually rekindled my hatred for the organization, where I don't even care if they are terrible, I think I'm going to actively root against them till he is no longer an owner. So yeah, any article that suggests the conversations between Kraft and Blank were negative against BB I will believe regardless of alternative speculation.

IMO, people will oft reference the most recent information, and second to that the most prominent information. The documentary that just came out and was hand "Krafted" by him is going to take supreme precedence over random quotes he made over the years while Bill was still the HC of the team he owned and while they were winning super bowls. It spoke volumes. And judging by the reaction of the players and much of the public to it; I'm not alone in feeling this way. So just to say I don't think my take is some crazy, one off take.
 
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Unfortunately I'm not really surprised by this...once it became painfully obvious BB had to go (and it was very obvious) and was not going to be able to go out on his own terms in New England it was destined to get rocky...the big issue I see is Kraft is trying to navigate the BB departure/the Patriots losing with many faces and the more he does it the worse he looks and it is becoming pretty transparent with the fanbase...on one-hand he is trying to put on a public face of thanking BB for all he has done (because while many/most fans wanted him gone he is still worshipped as he should be) and trying to keep his hands clean with this divorce while on the other hand he is taking zero responsibility for the current state of the franchise and is putting daggers in BB's back by putting it all on him (not just how bad they are now but any issues from the Brady era as well) yet at the same time he has no issues with patting himself on the back for all the good times...the whole Dynasty series really backfired on him and while he tries to claim they did not have control over it I don't think anyone believes that...nor should they...the fact many of the really respected ex-players like Rodney/Slater/McCourty called BS on the project was a very bad look for the Kraft's...even a player like Gilmore who had his issues with BB voiced his displeasure...it just feels like Kraft is really uncomfortable not having it come easy like it did for 20 years and instead of turning the page and totally focusing on this rebuild he wants to make excuses for where they are as his ego is now taking a hit...it's not a good look and it's too bad because overall he has been an excellent Owner.

As for BB...I'm not surprised other teams are leery of him...first of all he is 72 which is not a great selling point regardless of who you are...secondly, he can say he does not want to run the whole show and will work with others, but does anyone really believe he could be subservient to anyone...I know I don't...overall I think he can still coach but under no condition should he have any say in personnel...I don't know how anyone can defend what he did during the post-Brady era...it was a complete and utter train wreck...also, if I was an Owner could I really trust someone that hired Matt Patricia as an OC and just drove his young QB into a brick wall...the fact is his recent body of work just isn't good...I have felt all along the one place that makes sense is Dallas...they are built to win now, he has a strong relationship with Jerry and Jerry is a big enough personality that BB would not simply roll over him...if McCarthy does get canned I can envision that scenario playing out but other than that (and maybe Philly and that is a stretch) I just don't see anyone looking to hire a HC that will be 73 years old next offseason...I still think he is as good of a HC as the NFL has ever seen or will ever see but as the saying goes "Father Time is undefeated" and that applies to BB as well.
 
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Mac Jones (I don't think Cam Newton) was the unlucky soul that had to replace Brady. Before he was even drafted, that poor guy was destined to not be good enough. Now Jerrod Mayo is kind of in that same boat.
NE did not do Mac any favors by having a new OC every season he was there. They also really didn't bring in any help on offense that moved the needle at all. That being said, Jones didn't help his cause any. He got a reputation of not being that receptive to coaching, wanting to have a much bigger voice than he had earned, being difficult to work with, and being a whiner and cry baby.

IMO, I think Mayo is a dead man walking. I am very skeptical that the Pats will be able to turn things around quickly, and new regimes don't get long to produce winning teams. Part of the reason I have my doubts is NE's recent draft history. After several poor drafts, the Kraft's made the player evaluation, scouting, and draft selection process more democratic. The guys running the team now became obsessed with Relative Athletic Scores and metrics. They picked a bunch of players with high RAS scores that really haven't done much for NE. Those same guys are now fully responsible for player selection, and I am not sure BB can fully be used as a scapegoat for the lack of talent on the roster.

I think Mayo and the current front office will be trying to bring in some better players for the next coaching staff and front office regime. I see the Pats being a bottom 5 team again this season and next season (which will help build up the roster some). If the Pats win a total of 9 games over the next two seasons, I think Mayo and Wolf will be jettisoned. That also could mean that the rookie QB they end up with this draft could be on thin ice, as the next coaching staff could easily decide to go in a different direction.

I am leery of making a coaching change because the new guy is nicer and more positive. That doesn't necessarily mean he is or will be a good coach. We've seen that the BB coaching tree hasn't really produced much fruit in terms of successful coaches. That tells me the coaching decisions and player development fell a lot more on BB than it did his supporting coaches. I think that we may see that again with Mayo . . . that Bill was the defensive mastermind and Mayo was just implementing what Bill told him to do. But we will have to see how things play out over the next few seasons . . .
 
What I don't buy is Robert Kraft out there actively trying to torpedo him. That just doesn't make any sense in my opinion and has zero upside with tons of downside.
People don't need upside to be vindictive.

Sure they do. The vindictiveness is the upside for them. The question is how much value it has. Weighed against the value of the downside.

And to be fair, I'm not privileged to the real understanding of their relationship. Maybe there was so much vindictiveness and hate it made it worthwhile for Kraft. I doubt it. But I also don't know that for a fact.
 
Brady will write a book some day and it will be an interesting read about his perspectives regarding Kraft and BB. I’ll buy it.

Before then, NY Times best seller "The Dynasty" is outstanding. It dives deep into the working relationships between Brady, Kraft and Belichick. And also some interesting stuff with Parcells. It's where the docuseries for the Apple shows came from.

It's very personal with Kraft and my understanding from the book is a big part of why I'm leery of this story.
 
Sure they do. The vindictiveness is the upside for them. The question is how much value it has. Weighed against the value of the downside.

And to be fair, I'm not privileged to the real understanding of their relationship. Maybe there was so much vindictiveness and hate it made it worthwhile for Kraft. I doubt it. But I also don't know that for a fact.
One thing lost in all of this is the role of the media. I have lived in the Boston market for decades, and I have never seen a city go through so many competitive, title winning teams and all of them get annihilated by the press. I don't know how things got that way, but over time, the media folks apparently see their role as muckrakers . . . even when the teams are winning. The Celtics are frauds. The Bruins are chokers. The Red Sox are cheap. The Patriots and BB were never that good (other than Brady).

Especially with the Pats, that has extended into the national media spotlight. Maybe it's the cheating allegations. Kraft's indiscretions. Brady's pretty boy appearance. Who knows. But a lot of people have made it their mission to bring them down a peg or two. I get it, controversy yields more clicks and views. Thus why I am skeptical of some of these potential hit pieces or slanted Dynasty series exposés.

If I had to guess, the Kraft's have mostly felt that Bill was a huge asset and contributor to their great run. But I am also sure there were times they wanted to strangle him and curse him out. I can easily see where he could rub people the wrong way. Because of that, I'd bet there were times when they had less than flattering things to say about him. Maybe some of those got recorded. Maybe someone overheard them, and that person blabbed. But no one cares about the 5,000 times Robert Kraft had great things to say about Bill . . . they only care about the 5 times he had something bad to say about Bill.

I have seen a number of unplanned, unscheduled interviews with Robert where he was asked about Bill. When he was out somewhere in Boston, leaving the stadium, after some charity event, etc. His comments were beyond praiseworthy, saying that Bill and Tom put the Patriots on the map, Bill's ability to reinvent the roster and the way they adjusted how they played was unmatched, and no one had mastered salary cap management like Bill had. In one interview, a local reporter caught Kraft while walking through the mall at Patriots Place, and Robert indicated that the mall would not have been there without Bill Belichick.

Bottom line, I would take everything coming out about NE with a grain of salt. I would guess all teams have internal squabbles but they stay behind closed doors. But people want to keep digging and stir the pot on all things Patriots, so be prepared for more and more reports of discourse and strained relationships. SPOILER ALERT: I suspect we will start getting reports of problems in 2018. Then 2016. Then 2014. Then 2008. You get my point. These types of reports will continue to get people to read the new content, and that will keep these media types employed.
 

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