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Healing And Moving Forward - Thoughts? (3 Viewers)

Sweet J said:
I have no patience for any of this. When millions of white people got upset about the death of Jim Crow, and 14 year old girls were getting spit on for trying to go to school, nobody did any hand-wringing and said "but maybe we should understand their point of view."

When Reagan kicked Carter and Mondale's rear across 48 states, nobody stopped to ask about the poor liberals who felt excluded. 

When Gore got shafted, I don't remember people giving consideration to think-pieces written asking won't we please think of the democrats' feelings. 

And Trump has been taking an enormous dump on all those people who disagree with him for 4 years straight, but now -- NOW we want to talk about "healing." NO. WAY. IN. HELL. Let people sit in their own juices. They'll either get over it or not. I'm tired of the liberals in this country having to be the adults.

Trump, McConnel, and Fox news CONTINUE to spew lies about voter fraud, while trying to sow discord. They can pound sand for all I care.  

All I care about is halfway competent and decent governance. I don't have the energy to give two whits about making people feel better. They can either come along or not.
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💯

 
Joe - I'll try to say it again in a way that's less angry: In short, I don't think it's productive to talk about "healing." It feels like one more trap to divide us. There has been a (most likely 200 year) history of one party or another losing and hurting about it. Maybe they muster themselves and flip the election next time. Maybe, like in the cases of desegregation, they eventually come along. I think my point is that talk about "reconciliation" may actually be exasperating things. We just want to see competent governance. That's what the "losing" side should want, as well. 

I read a WHOLE lot of thinkpieces in 2016 saying "well, let's all hope Trump isn't as bad as we feared," and "let's give him a chance to govern." I'd love to see something like that written by a high-level Trump supporter (either in politics or media). But if they don't, that's ok too. Because it's not about MY feelings, either. It's about competence and moving forward. That's pretty much all I care about. And that's what I hope the Trump supporters care about too. 

And if they DON'T care about that, well, it seems like they may not care about our country as much as they think they do.

Edit: I don't see to be able to respond in this thread without being a major downer. So, I'll try and keep my comments to a minimum here. I reacted to much from a "gut" level, I fear. I guess I'm angrier than I realized. I feel like Forest Gump ("I'm sorry I got in a fight at your Black Panther Party. . .").

 
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The other way of looking at it is that by being the adult and wanting to start a healing process, you're getting dangerously close to saying it's ok that people have ideals like racist beliefs, or anti-science beliefs.

It is not ok for people to have these beliefs.  

They come around and say they were wrong about all of those things, and then we start healing.  I have no idea how to start that process.

 
Scoresman said:
It is not ok for people to have these beliefs.
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I disagree. I don't want to be the thought police. If people want to be that way, I mean I hope they just never have a meaningful say in the policies I want to support that may conflict with those views. They'll either get it eventually or not. And if they don't then I hope my side outnumbers theirs sooner than later.

But to say it's not ok to have those beliefs is too much. Trying to control that is wrong.

 
hagmania said:
I disagree. I don't want to be the thought police. If people want to be that way, I mean I hope they just never have a meaningful say in the policies I want to support that may conflict with those views. They'll either get it eventually or not. And if they don't then I hope my side outnumbers theirs sooner than later.

But to say it's not ok to have those beliefs is too much. Trying to control that is wrong.
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Maybe I should have said its not ok for people to express those beliefs then.  

I just don't know how to start a conversation with people who think this way.  

 
Scoresman said:
Maybe I should have said its not ok for people to express those beliefs then.  

I just don't know how to start a conversation with people who think this way.  
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Think that gets back to my original point too. I'm not one to believe that you have to shoulder that burden. Just be gracious when they start asking questions imo.

 
At the very least throughout these conversations I would hope folks on the left have a better sense of appreciation over the urgency with which many evangelicals seem to live their life.

 
timschochet said:
The immediate barrier to any potential healing is this:  polling suggests around 70% of Republicans do not accept the results of this election: they believe, without evidence, that it was stolen from Donald Trump. 
How can we heal with this as a prevalent belief? 
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Let the recounts happen, and see the litigation to its conclusion and that number will surely go down over time.

 
Sweet J said:
Joe - I'll try to say it again in a way that's less angry: In short, I don't think it's productive to talk about "healing." It feels like one more trap to divide us. There has been a (most likely 200 year) history of one party or another losing and hurting about it. Maybe they muster themselves and flip the election next time. Maybe, like in the cases of desegregation, they eventually come along. I think my point is that talk about "reconciliation" may actually be exasperating things. We just want to see competent governance. That's what the "losing" side should want, as well. 

I read a WHOLE lot of thinkpieces in 2016 saying "well, let's all hope Trump isn't as bad as we feared," and "let's give him a chance to govern." I'd love to see something like that written by a high-level Trump supporter (either in politics or media). But if they don't, that's ok too. Because it's not about MY feelings, either. It's about competence and moving forward. That's pretty much all I care about. And that's what I hope the Trump supporters care about too. 

And if they DON'T care about that, well, it seems like they may not care about our country as much as they think they do.

Edit: I don't see to be able to respond in this thread without being a major downer. So, I'll try and keep my comments to a minimum here. I reacted to much from a "gut" level, I fear. I guess I'm angrier than I realized. I feel like Forest Gump ("I'm sorry I got in a fight at your Black Panther Party. . .").
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It's funny to me that NOW I see commercials and others asking for everyone to "work together" when for the last 4 years I have seen a divisiveness, on both sides, that went beyond anything I have ever seen.  LIberals saying they would be willing to end relationships with friends and even FAMILY over Trump support.

And now the left wants everyone to get along.  Reach across the aisle, come to a middle ground.

Give me a break.  Now understand it wont be me who is being difficult but to think the right is going to just forget 4 years of utter hatred, and especially after losing?  I call that delusion.

 
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supermike80 said:
It's funny to me that NOW I see commercials and others asking for everyone to "work together" when for the last 4 years I have seen a divisiveness, on both sides, that went beyond anything I have ever seen.  LIberals saying they would be willing to end relationships with friends and even FAMILY over Trump support.

And now the left wants everyone to get along.  Reach across the aisle, come to a middle ground.

Give me a break.  Now understand it wont be me who is being difficult but to think the right is going to just for get 4 years or utter hatred, and especially after losing?  I call that delusion.
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That is the perfect word to describe these thoughts.

 
bigbottom said:
Let the recounts happen, and see the litigation to its conclusion and that number will surely go down over time.
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The problem is what happens in the meantime. Does Trump say "until all the recounts are complete, I'm not allowing a Biden transition team to get started." Or worse, does he say "because this wasn't a legitimate victory, I'm not leaving until all the recounts are finished to my satisfaction."

 
moleculo said:
If anyone thinks reconciliation is possible, I'd encourage you to listen to Ruch Limbaugh.  12:00-3:00 Eastern, every week day, on an AM channel near you.
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Yup.

My guess is Limbaugh is saying to his Conservative / Republican audience something like, "Stand strong. Don't try to reconcile or heal. Because let me tell you how the other side thinks. They are thinking, 'NOW we want to talk about "healing." NO. WAY. IN. HELL. Let people sit in their own juices. They'll either get over it or not.'  I know these people and that's how they think."

And every person in Rush's audience that hears that will naturally agree with Rush that no way should they try to reconcile when the "other side" has that stance. 

It's 100% human nature. 

We've had four years to see how the "We won. They lost. They'll either get over it or not" style works.

My fear is we're heading for four more years of the same. We'll see. 

 
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supermike80 said:
It's funny to me that NOW I see commercials and others asking for everyone to "work together" when for the last 4 years I have seen a divisiveness, on both sides, that went beyond anything I have ever seen.  LIberals saying they would be willing to end relationships with friends and even FAMILY over Trump support.

And now the left wants everyone to get along.  Reach across the aisle, come to a middle ground.

Give me a break.  Now understand it wont be me who is being difficult but to think the right is going to just forget 4 years of utter hatred, and especially after losing?  I call that delusion.
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right. It's the left who are being divisive. The unfortunate thing is that you may actually believe what you are saying. That's fine. People can believe all the made up things they want, as long as they get out of the way of responsible governance. 

 
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Joe Bryant said:
Yup.

My guess is Limbaugh is saying to his Conservative / Republican audience something like, "Stand strong. Don't try to reconcile or heal. Because let me tell you how the other side thinks. They are thinking, 'NOW we want to talk about "healing." NO. WAY. IN. HELL. Let people sit in their own juices. They'll either get over it or not.'  I know these people and that's how they think."

And every person in Rush's audience that hears that will naturally agree with Rush that no way should they try to reconcile when the "other side" has that stance. 

It's 100% human nature. 

We've had four years to see how the "We won. They lost. They'll either get over it or not" style works.

My fear is we're heading for four more years of the same. We'll see. 
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Wow..thats exactly what I just said and I was called delusional.  If the left thinks the right is going to want to work with them now they are crazy

 
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Sweet J said:
right. It's the left who are being divisive. The unfortunate thing is that you may actually believe what you are saying. That's fine. You people can believe all the made up things they want, as long as they get out of the way of responsible governance. 
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I said both sides.  I actually used those words.  

 
Joe Bryant said:
Yup.

My guess is Limbaugh is saying to his Conservative / Republican audience something like, "Stand strong. Don't try to reconcile or heal. Because let me tell you how the other side thinks. They are thinking, 'NOW we want to talk about "healing." NO. WAY. IN. HELL. Let people sit in their own juices. They'll either get over it or not.'  I know these people and that's how they think."

And every person in Rush's audience that hears that will rightly agrees with Rush that no way should they try to reconcile when the "other side" has that stance. 

It's 100% human nature. 

We've had four years to see how the "We won. They lost. They'll either get over it or not" style of "leadership" works.

My fear is we're heading for four more years of the same. We'll see. 
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Its going to be like that for a long time as long as the Trumps want to keep in the political landscape and I believe Donald does.

 
Joe Bryant said:
Yup.

My guess is Limbaugh is saying to his Conservative / Republican audience something like, "Stand strong. Don't try to reconcile or heal. Because let me tell you how the other side thinks. They are thinking, 'NOW we want to talk about "healing." NO. WAY. IN. HELL. Let people sit in their own juices. They'll either get over it or not.'  I know these people and that's how they think."

And every person in Rush's audience that hears that will naturally agree with Rush that no way should they try to reconcile when the "other side" has that stance. 

It's 100% human nature. 

We've had four years to see how the "We won. They lost. They'll either get over it or not" style works.

My fear is we're heading for four more years of the same. We'll see. 
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What do you think will be an effective way to approach this instead Joe?

 
Joe Bryant said:
Yup.

My guess is Limbaugh is saying to his Conservative / Republican audience something like, "Stand strong. Don't try to reconcile or heal. Because let me tell you how the other side thinks. They are thinking, 'NOW we want to talk about "healing." NO. WAY. IN. HELL. Let people sit in their own juices. They'll either get over it or not.'  I know these people and that's how they think."

And every person in Rush's audience that hears that will rightly agrees with Rush that no way should they try to reconcile when the "other side" has that stance. 

It's 100% human nature. 

We've had four years to see how the "We won. They lost. They'll either get over it or not" style of "leadership" works.

My fear is we're heading for four more years of the same. We'll see. 
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no, it's more about how the election was obviously stolen.  Blatant cheating (which the Democrats always do).  Mark Stein is guest hosting today - he actually said, unironically, that COVID was intentionally drawn out to provide a reason for mail-in ballots, which are known around the world to be fraudulent.

They aren't talking about healing - not anywhere near that. Still arguing about the stolen election and how the deep state continues to conspire against Trump.

 
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It's not that I don't want "healing." It's that this is a made up thing. It's one more distraction from actual governance. NOBODY asked about "healing" when Trump won. 

I don't know how many trump supporters in here said "you need to just give him a chance." Well, ok. Let's see if they say the same thing about Biden. 

But either way, I could care less about "healing." I just want the politicians to do their jobs, and run a god darned government. Rush is going to find something to lie about. That's what he does. I'm not concerned about Rush.

 
Joe Bryant said:
Yup.

My guess is Limbaugh is saying to his Conservative / Republican audience something like, "Stand strong. Don't try to reconcile or heal. Because let me tell you how the other side thinks. They are thinking, 'NOW we want to talk about "healing." NO. WAY. IN. HELL. Let people sit in their own juices. They'll either get over it or not.'  I know these people and that's how they think."

And every person in Rush's audience that hears that will naturally agree with Rush that no way should they try to reconcile when the "other side" has that stance. 

It's 100% human nature. 

We've had four years to see how the "We won. They lost. They'll either get over it or not" style works.

My fear is we're heading for four more years of the same. We'll see. 
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Its a rational fear...my hope is that Joe and Kamala stay out of that...that they continue to preach coming together...that they continue to try and work with congressional GOP.  I think for sure Biden will...as this is it for him.  Almost legacy building stuff.  To cap off his 47 years of government work...trying to bridge a divide that has grown so large.  I don't think there is motivation for him to be...well I won, get over it.   

But it won't matter if the people don't follow that lead...

 
There's roughly 70% of 71M people who believe the election was fraudulent.  If they continue to believe that after Jan 20, how can there possibly be reconciliation?  How do you make peace when a significant number of people believe the Biden presidency is a sham?

 
Joe Bryant said:
What I posted above from Pete Buttigieg. 
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Do we all do that once?  Every single day?   Once we've embedded that trait in our DNA, then what comes next?   Do you think that act alone is sufficient?   Or put differently....what specifically do you think this will solve?

(Note:  I'm not asking these questions because I dislike the idea; quite the contrary, it's a good idea.   But my favorite question at work is "what's the problem you are trying to solve?")

 
Joe Bryant said:
What I posted above from Pete Buttigieg. 
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This isn't specific to you, @Joe Bryant, but you seem to be the one really pushing that this can be done, so...

I'm all for healing, really.  I'm all for forgive and forget.  I've forgiven and forgotten some truly heinous things done to me in my life.  The trick with forgiving and forgetting is that the person being forgiven stops doing the thing that requires forgiveness.  What do we do when tens of millions of people don't stop doing those things?  What's the next step, seriously.

 
moleculo said:
There's roughly 70% of 71M people who believe the election was fraudulent.  If they continue to believe that after Jan 20, how can there possibly be reconciliation?  How do you make peace when a significant number of people believe the Biden presidency is a sham?
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:goodposting:

This also scares the crap out of me.

 
Rich Conway said:
This isn't specific to you, @Joe Bryant, but you seem to be the one really pushing that this can be done, so...

I'm all for healing, really.  I'm all for forgive and forget.  I've forgiven and forgotten some truly heinous things done to me in my life.  The trick with forgiving and forgetting is that the person being forgiven stops doing the thing that requires forgiveness.  What do we do when tens of millions of people don't stop doing those things?  What's the next step, seriously.
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More  :goodposting:

 
Related to the above - how do we heal when we have a large percentage of the country that still believes Obama is a secret Muslim?

I never in my life thought I would miss John McCain this much. That thing he did where he corrected a supporter who called Obama a Muslim . . . . think about how far we've come. I mean. . I REALLY miss him. For my life, I never thought I'd feel that way. 

 
moleculo said:
If anyone thinks reconciliation is possible, I'd encourage you to listen to Rush Limbaugh.  12:00-3:00 Eastern, every week day, on an AM channel near you.
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Rush still have huge #s or has his popularity decreased as different mediums for people have become popular.  

 
supermike80 said:
It's funny to me that NOW I see commercials and others asking for everyone to "work together" when for the last 4 years I have seen a divisiveness, on both sides, that went beyond anything I have ever seen.  LIberals saying they would be willing to end relationships with friends and even FAMILY over Trump support.

And now the left wants everyone to get along.  Reach across the aisle, come to a middle ground.

Give me a break.  Now understand it wont be me who is being difficult but to think the right is going to just for get 4 years or utter hatred, and especially after losing?  I call that delusion.
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Do you think healing and moving forward will forever be hopeless?  If not, how could it happen?

 
supermike80 said:
I said both sides.  I actually used those words.  
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In passing, but then gave examples of liberals leaving family over Trump, and now the left wants to get along after that division.   The post came off as placing a lot more of the blame on the left.  

 
KarmaPolice said:
In passing, but then gave examples of liberals leaving family over Trump, and now the left wants to get along after that division.   The post came off as placing a lot more of the blame on the left.  
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Well let me be clear

BOTH SIDES!

Oh and edited to add.  I know of no situations personally where someone was willing or wanting to end a relationship with a family member or a friend because he was a republican and the other person was a democrat.

However I know multiple, real life examples where the opposite is true.  So I guess that's why  I cited that example.  

 
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I also looked it up and it looks like of the top 10 most listened to radio programs, 5 are conservative talk shows?   Rush, Hannity, Levin, Beck, and Gallagher.     9 of the top 20?   

Just one listed as a progressive talk show, and 2 new shows - BBC and NPR's Fresh Air.

 
Rich Conway said:
This isn't specific to you, @Joe Bryant, but you seem to be the one really pushing that this can be done, so...

I'm all for healing, really.  I'm all for forgive and forget.  I've forgiven and forgotten some truly heinous things done to me in my life.  The trick with forgiving and forgetting is that the person being forgiven stops doing the thing that requires forgiveness.  What do we do when tens of millions of people don't stop doing those things?  What's the next step, seriously.
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Not really sure what "things" the tens of millions are doing that you want them to stop doing. I doubt they'll stop supporting things Republicans mostly have supported for the past 30 years.

You do bring an interesting element into it. Many people are willing to forgive as long as it's conditional. I see that with empathy too. Many people are willing to care about the other person AS LONG AS the other person cares about them. In my experience, it gets troublesome when forgiveness and empathy are bargained for. But I don't disagree that's how most people do it. 

And I'm well aware I'm mostly the only one pushing for it. It's why I'm not very optimistic it'll happen. 

My fear is the winning side in this election ignores the Pete Buttigieg's of the world and instead we act pretty much like the winners in 2016 who acted pretty much like the winners in 2012 doing the "We won. They lost. They'll either get over it or not" style. 

I think I've said enough for me. 

 
Yikes, makes me happy that I don’t have a single family member who doesn’t mostly share my big picture political beliefs and we’ve been very fortunate to all be on the same page the last 4 years.

 
supermike80 said:
Well let me be clear

BOTH SIDES!

Oh and edited to add.  I know of no situations personally where someone was willing or wanting to end a relationship with a family member or a friend because he was a republican and the other person was a democrat.

However I know multiple, real life examples where the opposite is true.  So I guess that's why  I cited that example.  
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I don't see it quite so much Dem/Rep, but especially during COVID times it's making me notice big differences in core values.   That is nothing new for friends and family to fight and split over.  There is a reason people joke that they don't talk politics and religion.     And I have seen the opposite more in my life - people not talking to, not going to weddings, disowning family members over not adhering to their religious and conservative values they were raised up with.  

 
my dad is a pretty hard core republican and has been putting a bunch of terrible things on the facebook.  He is planning on coming for thanksgiving which will be interesting (everyone coming will be self-quarantining as much as possible the two weeks prior).  We don't talk politics though - hopefully it won't come up.

My brother is coming too.  He is an interesting cat - born again evangelical.  He talks the talk and walks the walk.  He has actually spent 2 years working with refugees in South Sudan, spreading the Good Word.  He is also an avid, die-hard never Trumper.  I don't believe he is a democrat but he sure the hell isn't a Trumplican.  

Going to be an interesting and tense Thanksgiving, especially if this law suit nonsense lingers.

 
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Sweet J said:
I have no patience for any of this. When millions of white people got upset about the death of Jim Crow, and 14 year old girls were getting spit on for trying to go to school, nobody did any hand-wringing and said "but maybe we should understand their point of view."

When Reagan kicked Carter and Mondale's rear across 48 states, nobody stopped to ask about the poor liberals who felt excluded. 

When Gore got shafted, I don't remember people giving consideration to think-pieces written asking won't we please think of the democrats' feelings. 

And Trump has been taking an enormous dump on all those people who disagree with him for 4 years straight, but now -- NOW we want to talk about "healing." NO. WAY. IN. HELL. Let people sit in their own juices. They'll either get over it or not. I'm tired of the liberals in this country having to be the adults.

Trump, McConnel, and Fox news CONTINUE to spew lies about voter fraud, while trying to sow discord. They can pound sand for all I care.  

All I care about is halfway competent and decent governance. I don't have the energy to give two whits about making people feel better. They can either come along or not.
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:mellow:   Except it is the Democrats themselves initiating the "healing" talk.  I don't think conservatives are asking for anything. 

This tweet from Michelle Obama sums it up nicely:

https://twitter.com/MichelleObama/status/1325141022570131457

 
Joe Bryant said:
My guess is Limbaugh is saying to his Conservative / Republican audience something like, "Stand strong. Don't try to reconcile or heal. Because let me tell you how the other side thinks. They are thinking, 'NOW we want to talk about "healing." NO. WAY. IN. HELL. Let people sit in their own juices. They'll either get over it or not.'  I know these people and that's how they think."
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This is wrong. What he (actually his guest host Marc Stein) is saying is that Trump won the election. 

 
Joe Bryant said:
Actually the people I see calling for unity are the Pete Buttigieg's of the world who were on the "losing" side in 2016. 
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:confused:  But they are on the winning side now while they are saying these things, which is the whole point of the article.

 
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