Hines Ward - 1st ballot Hall of Famer? (2 Viewers)

[Wadsworth]

One comparison I am particularly interested in is Rod Smith vs. Hines Ward. Both have two rings. Smith has slightly more yards, while Ward has more TDs. Both have been to multiple Pro Bowls, but Ward gets the advantage here as well as the Super Bowl MVP (although Rod Smith's performance in SB33 was perhaps better than Ward's in SB40).

Similar cases? Similar players? One a clear winner over the other?

I would say they are even. I wouldn't put either in. Both would be in the Hall of Very Good. Both were very good receiving WRs, awesome blockers, and excellent team leaders, and both could be called massive overachievers based on what was expected out of them coming out of college. Neither had the most talent, but both got to where they are through hard work.

I think they are similar players, but I think it's pretty clear Ward has surpassed Smith.Super Bowl MVPs: Ward 1, Smith 0

2nd team All Pro selections (neither made 1st team All Pro): Ward 3, Smith 1

Pro Bowls: Ward 4, Smith 3

Ward has played 170 regular season games so far. Smith played 183. So with one more season, they will be roughly even in games played, and Ward will have more catches (currently Smith leads 849 to 800) and TDs (currently Ward leads 72 to 68). Ward will need another season to pass Smith in yards, but I assume he will get there (Smith leads 11389 to 9780).

Ward has played in 14 postseason games and put up 76/1064/8, compared to Smith's 49/860/6 in 12 games.

Anyway, I agree neither should make the HOF, and I don't think either will.

Let's not forget the fact that Rod Smith had eight 1,000 yard seasons in nine years (including a run of six in a row), while Ward only has five 1,000 yard seasons. And since starting, Smith only had Elway for two years and then had Griese and Plummer for most of the rest of his career, while Ward has had Roethlisberger for five. Also, I put zero stock in pro bowls made, so throw that stat out.

5 seasons over 1,000 yards, including seasons of 1003 and 1004 yards. One season over 1,200 yards. But the Ward supports don't care. It's kind of a waste to argue stats when people think he should get in just based on their observations of his toughness, leadership, etc. You can't really argue against someone's opinion on intangible qualities.

 

[David Yudkin]

Not a particularly noteworthy game from Hines, but the very fact that he was able to overcome an injury that would derail most WRs does further buttress his case for HOF inclusion.

Where does that show up on the stat sheets? In five years nobody is going to remember his role in these playoffs, just the stats.

People won't even remember the stats; they still argue that Art Monk was a big part of three Super Bowl runs. Ward is clearly more deserving than Monk, and will have as many cheerleaders.

You specifically should know I am not a huge fan of Monk going in (but I won't lose any slepp over it). The difference being that how many other top WR were there in the 80s and early 90s?Now look at Ward. How many other top receivers are there? I'm guessing a lot more in Ward's case.

 

[mbuehner]

Specifically, I don't think Isaac Bruce is going to get in and you will have another camp making the case for him at the same time. And Bruce has the rings and the numbers on Ward.

 

[CalBear]

Not a particularly noteworthy game from Hines, but the very fact that he was able to overcome an injury that would derail most WRs does further buttress his case for HOF inclusion.

Where does that show up on the stat sheets? In five years nobody is going to remember his role in these playoffs, just the stats.

People won't even remember the stats; they still argue that Art Monk was a big part of three Super Bowl runs. Ward is clearly more deserving than Monk, and will have as many cheerleaders.

You specifically should know I am not a huge fan of Monk going in (but I won't lose any slepp over it). The difference being that how many other top WR were there in the 80s and early 90s?Now look at Ward. How many other top receivers are there? I'm guessing a lot more in Ward's case.

Monk's decent stats started in 1984. That year he ranked behind Mark Clayton (better than Monk except for longevity), Stallworth (HOF), Largent (HOF), Lofton (HOF). Mike Quick is another contemporary, with as many Pro Bowls plus two All-Pros that Monk doesn't have (but a short career). Jerry Rice arrived in 1985, just one year after Monk had his first good season. Andre Reed also arrived in 1985. Gary Clark was more deserving than Art Monk, on the same team.There were plenty of good receivers who were contemporaries, who just didn't have the cheerleaders.

 

[Sheriff66]

Specifically, I don't think Isaac Bruce is going to get in and you will have another camp making the case for him at the same time. And Bruce has the rings and the numbers on Ward.

Bruce has 1 ring, Ward has 2 and a SB MVP

 

[Sheriff66]

Not a particularly noteworthy game from Hines, but the very fact that he was able to overcome an injury that would derail most WRs does further buttress his case for HOF inclusion.

Where does that show up on the stat sheets? In five years nobody is going to remember his role in these playoffs, just the stats.

People won't even remember the stats; they still argue that Art Monk was a big part of three Super Bowl runs. Ward is clearly more deserving than Monk, and will have as many cheerleaders.

You specifically should know I am not a huge fan of Monk going in (but I won't lose any slepp over it). The difference being that how many other top WR were there in the 80s and early 90s?Now look at Ward. How many other top receivers are there? I'm guessing a lot more in Ward's case.

Monk's decent stats started in 1984. That year he ranked behind Mark Clayton (better than Monk except for longevity), Stallworth (HOF), Largent (HOF), Lofton (HOF). Mike Quick is another contemporary, with as many Pro Bowls plus two All-Pros that Monk doesn't have (but a short career). Jerry Rice arrived in 1985, just one year after Monk had his first good season. Andre Reed also arrived in 1985. Gary Clark was more deserving than Art Monk, on the same team.There were plenty of good receivers who were contemporaries, who just didn't have the cheerleaders.

Ward will have the cheerleaders, he will be remembered come election time.

 

[David Yudkin]

Not a particularly noteworthy game from Hines, but the very fact that he was able to overcome an injury that would derail most WRs does further buttress his case for HOF inclusion.

Where does that show up on the stat sheets? In five years nobody is going to remember his role in these playoffs, just the stats.

People won't even remember the stats; they still argue that Art Monk was a big part of three Super Bowl runs. Ward is clearly more deserving than Monk, and will have as many cheerleaders.

You specifically should know I am not a huge fan of Monk going in (but I won't lose any slepp over it). The difference being that how many other top WR were there in the 80s and early 90s?Now look at Ward. How many other top receivers are there? I'm guessing a lot more in Ward's case.

Monk's decent stats started in 1984. That year he ranked behind Mark Clayton (better than Monk except for longevity), Stallworth (HOF), Largent (HOF), Lofton (HOF). Mike Quick is another contemporary, with as many Pro Bowls plus two All-Pros that Monk doesn't have (but a short career). Jerry Rice arrived in 1985, just one year after Monk had his first good season. Andre Reed also arrived in 1985. Gary Clark was more deserving than Art Monk, on the same team.There were plenty of good receivers who were contemporaries, who just didn't have the cheerleaders.

My point was that in today's game, there are many more candidates with both numbers and longevity . . . moreso than Monk had to compete against.

 

[Tau837]

One comparison I am particularly interested in is Rod Smith vs. Hines Ward. Both have two rings. Smith has slightly more yards, while Ward has more TDs. Both have been to multiple Pro Bowls, but Ward gets the advantage here as well as the Super Bowl MVP (although Rod Smith's performance in SB33 was perhaps better than Ward's in SB40).Similar cases? Similar players? One a clear winner over the other?

I would say they are even. I wouldn't put either in. Both would be in the Hall of Very Good. Both were very good receiving WRs, awesome blockers, and excellent team leaders, and both could be called massive overachievers based on what was expected out of them coming out of college. Neither had the most talent, but both got to where they are through hard work.

I think they are similar players, but I think it's pretty clear Ward has surpassed Smith.Super Bowl MVPs: Ward 1, Smith 02nd team All Pro selections (neither made 1st team All Pro): Ward 3, Smith 1Pro Bowls: Ward 4, Smith 3Ward has played 170 regular season games so far. Smith played 183. So with one more season, they will be roughly even in games played, and Ward will have more catches (currently Smith leads 849 to 800) and TDs (currently Ward leads 72 to 68). Ward will need another season to pass Smith in yards, but I assume he will get there (Smith leads 11389 to 9780).Ward has played in 14 postseason games and put up 76/1064/8, compared to Smith's 49/860/6 in 12 games.Anyway, I agree neither should make the HOF, and I don't think either will.

Let's not forget the fact that Rod Smith had eight 1,000 yard seasons in nine years (including a run of six in a row), while Ward only has five 1,000 yard seasons. And since starting, Smith only had Elway for two years and then had Griese and Plummer for most of the rest of his career, while Ward has had Roethlisberger for five. Also, I put zero stock in pro bowls made, so throw that stat out.

I agree Pro Bowls are a poor metric, but it's still a data point. The 2nd team All Pros and Super Bowl MVP are all that is really needed to put Ward over Smith, though, given they are pretty similar otherwise.The 1000 yard seasons are great, but ultimately Ward will be ahead of Smith in all categories, including receiving yards. I certainly don't think more 1000 yard seasons is enough to make up for the other stuff.As for your implication that Ward played with better QBs, even if true, consider the discrepancy in pass attempts between the two offenses. From 1997 to 2006, the period when Smith was starting, his Denver teams attempted 5111 passes. From 1999 to 2008, the period when Ward was starting, his Pittsburgh teams attempted 4719 passes. Big gap there. IMO that offsets any benefit Ward got at QB.Interestingly, we had a Rod Smith HOF debate around here when Smith was winding down his career. I didn't think he would or should make it, but there were plenty who argued otherwise. The fact that a guy like Ward has now surpassed Smith probably puts the Smith HOF thinking to rest. And I think the same thing will happen with Ward. I can see now that he won't deserve induction, and I think long before he becomes eligible it will become clear even to those arguing for him now.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

It all just depends on how long he plays. His game isn't built on skills that typically erode over time (top end speed, mind-boggling elusiveness.) He's a good route runner with good hands and an iron will, and if he chooses to play until he's 35-36, he's going to end up with 1000 receptions, about 12-13,000 yards and close to/over 100 TDs, which will make him a shoo-in. It's all up to him at this point.

And as long as Cowher is his coach (which I suspect he will be for the rest of his career), you can forget about it. He'll never accumulate HOF type stats under Cowher. Sorry--it aint happening.

You never know....2002 - 112-1329-12If the Steelers' running game ever goes in the tank again, he stands to potentially put up legendary stats. With Roethlisberger at QB instead of Maddox, imagine what he could post if the Steelers were forced to start throwing it 30-35 times a game again.

95-1167-6 this year at age 33 and says he wants to play 3 more years. 895-10,947-78 right now. 3 more years (if he doesn't miss significant time) will likely leave him somewhere in the neighborhood of :1200-14,000-100.Just an update.

 

[Tau837]

It all just depends on how long he plays. His game isn't built on skills that typically erode over time (top end speed, mind-boggling elusiveness.) He's a good route runner with good hands and an iron will, and if he chooses to play until he's 35-36, he's going to end up with 1000 receptions, about 12-13,000 yards and close to/over 100 TDs, which will make him a shoo-in. It's all up to him at this point.

And as long as Cowher is his coach (which I suspect he will be for the rest of his career), you can forget about it. He'll never accumulate HOF type stats under Cowher. Sorry--it aint happening.

You never know....2002 - 112-1329-12If the Steelers' running game ever goes in the tank again, he stands to potentially put up legendary stats. With Roethlisberger at QB instead of Maddox, imagine what he could post if the Steelers were forced to start throwing it 30-35 times a game again.

95-1167-6 this year at age 33 and says he wants to play 3 more years. 895-10,947-78 right now. 3 more years (if he doesn't miss significant time) will likely leave him somewhere in the neighborhood of :1200-14,000-100.Just an update.

Over the past 3 years, Ward has 247/2942/20 receiving and has played 45 games. If he duplicates that over the next 3 years, his career totals would be 1142/13889/98.That would likely put Ward at #9 or #10 all time in receptions, behind Rice, Harrison, Carter, Brown, Bruce, Owens, Gonzalez, Moss, and maybe Holt. Of those trailing Ward right now, it is notable that both Wayne and Ochocinco seem to be the older guys with the most potential to catch him... both are two years younger than Ward.That would likely put Ward at #11 all time in receiving yards, behind Rice, Bruce, Owens, Brown, Moss, Lofton, Carter, Holt, and Gonzalez, and barring injury both Wayne and Ochocinco could easily be within 1000 yards of Ward and thus would be very likely to pass him soon afterwards.That would likely put Ward at #9 or #10 all time in receiving TDs, behind Rice, Moss, Owens, Carter, Harrison, Largent, Brown, Hutson, and maybe Gonzalez, assuming Bruce retires after this season and Holt does not have a resurgence. Again, Ochocinco and particularly Wayne could be very close to Ward by then, and Fitzgerald could even be challenging Ward by then (well, assuming Leinart doesn't end up replacing Warner).That would be pretty good, though not as good overall as guys like Reed and Bruce, who are borderline HOF candidates. The thing is, I strongly doubt Ward will duplicate his numbers over the past 3 years for another 3 years. So his numbers will likely be in the 15-20 range. I will say this, if Ward does produce like this for another 3 years, it will raise his HOF stock IMO. But I doubt it will happen.

 

[Bri]

Bruce isn't borderline, he's in.

Ward's blocking ability and post season experience will add something extra here if he even needs help getting in

 

[Tau837]

Bruce isn't borderline, he's in.Ward's blocking ability and post season experience will add something extra here if he even needs help getting in

We'll see. I could see it going either way, though he will probably make it. He never made 1st team All Pro and only made 2nd team All Pro once. It's not a great metric, but he only made 4 Pro Bowls. He has no significant awards. He will be out of the top 10 in TDs well before he is eligible, so his case will rest primarily upon his ranks in receptions and receiving yards.Regardless, Bruce has much better numbers than Ward will, so Bruce getting in doesn't tell us anything about Ward making it. I view Bruce as borderline and was trying to show that even the numbers I posted above wouldn't guarantee anything.The real issue is how many peers these guys had that were as good or better that will make the HOF ahead of them and how many are likely to make it from their peer groups.

 

[Wadsworth]

One season over 1,200 yards and one season with triple digit catches. I don't know, doesn't sound very HoFish to me in this era. For example 8 guys went over 1,200 yards and 6 caught 100 passes this season. Hines had a good year for him, but as usual his stats aren't all that impressive(tied for 9th in yards and 8th in catches). That's a fine season and he's had good seasons for 12 years now so they do add up. But HoF? Not if he wasn't player for a team with a huge fan base.

 

[DoubleG]

One season over 1,200 yards and one season with triple digit catches. I don't know, doesn't sound very HoSTATish to me in this era.

#s to chew on.09 Pittsburgh #9 in passing yards. Ward #9 in Rec yards. #8 in Rec. Steelers = 9-7. 19th in rushing.

08 Pittsburgh #17 in passing yards. Ward #15 in Rec yards. #14 in Rec. Steelers = 15-4. 23rd in rushing.

07 Pittsburgh #22 in passing yards. Ward (pro-rated/missed3 games) #30 in Rec yards. #14 in Rec. Steelers 10-7. #3 in rushing.

06 Pittsburgh #9 in passing yards. Ward (pro/missed2) #12 in Rec yards. #14 in Rec. Steeler = 8-8. #10 in rushing.

05 Pittsburgh #24 in passing yards. Ward #24 in Rec yards. #29 in Rec. Steelers = 15-5. #5 in rushing.

04 Pittsburgh #28 in passing yards. Ward #24 in Rec yards. #17 in Rec. Steelers = 16-2. #2 in rushing.

03 Pittsburgh #14 in passing yards (Maddox led). Ward #9 in Rec yards. #5 in Rec. Steelers = 6-10. #31 in rushing.

02 Pittsburgh #7 in passing yards. Ward #4 in Rec yards. #2 in Rec. Steelers = 11-6-1. #9 in rushing.

01 Pittsburgh #21 in passing yards. Ward #25 in Rec yards. #8 in Rec. Steelers = 14-4. #1 in rushing.

00 Pitssburgh #30 in passing yards. Ward #54 in Rec yards. #70 in Rec. Steelers = 9-7. #4 in rushing.

99 Pittsburgh #26 in passing yards. Ward #57 in Rec yards. #43 in Rec. Steelers = 7-9. #10 in urshing.

Okay - so when Pitt throws the ball, Ward's stats are better. And this means...????

 

[Adebisi]

I can see now that he won't deserve induction, and I think long before he becomes eligible it will become clear even to those arguing for him now.

 

[Chase Stuart]

I can see now that he won't deserve induction, and I think long before he becomes eligible it will become clear even to those arguing for him now.

Yeah, I pretty much agree.4 Pro Bowls and 3 second-team All-Pro nods is not a particularly compelling case.That said, I do think Ward has been unfairly dinged by not playing on teams that passed more frequently during his prime. That's probably been offset by the overstating of his importance as a blocker, his championships thanks to the same defense that limited his team's pass attempts, and all the fame that comes with playing on said teams. Looking just at the numbers probably underrates him a bit, but it's not like he's a borderline guy when just looking at the numbers. I think he's got a very weak case when just looking at the numbers, and is bumped up to decent but not persuasive case.When I say looking just at the numbers, I mean:1) He's ranked in the top 5 in receiving yards just one times; he's ranked 8th, 9th and 9th, and that's his only other top 10 rankings.2) He's ranked a little better in receptions, but that's less important. He ranked 2nd, 5th, 8th and 8th. Also not impressive for a HOFer.3) He has ranked in the top 5 in receiving TDs three times. That's pretty good.Absent the rings, the blocking, and the fact that his numbers were depressed by Pittsburgh's philosophy, he's got a very weak case. He's clearly more deserving than eithe rJoinre or Swann was, but that's not the appropriate standard.

 

[r3t2]

:

Absent the rings, the blocking, and the fact that his numbers were depressed by Pittsburgh's philosophy, he's got a very weak case. He's clearly more deserving than eithe rJoinre or Swann was, but that's not the appropriate standard.

first of all you cant say "absent the rings and blocking" because they make him what he is. a tough SOB, an amazingly hard worker and a great leader by example. a winner. very clutch. almost NEVER drops a ball. it's not a coincidence that all steeler WRs block. hines sets the bar high and demands that people emulate him. over the years the WRs made a lot of those downfield yards possible for FWP and the other backs. opposing LBs have to have their heads up or they will be taken off. when defending the run you have to account for him or he might knock you out or break your jaw. the guy plays hurt, is very consistent, and always manages to get open to give his qb a target.

i'm not saying he definitely should be in, but hines ward has had an enormous impact on a team that in the last 10 years won 103 regular season games, 11 playoff games, went to 4 afc championship games and won 2 super bowls. stats are only a means to the end of determining how important a player is for his team, and how successful that team is. who on the steelers offense over the last 10 years is better than him, and how many teams were better than them?and it's not like he doesnt have good numbers. and i would rather throw it to ward on 3rd and 7 in the 4th Q of an important game than almost anyone in the league. or anyone i have ever seen play for that matter.

 

[Tau837]

Absent the rings, the blocking, and the fact that his numbers were depressed by Pittsburgh's philosophy, he's got a very weak case. He's clearly more deserving than eithe rJoinre or Swann was, but that's not the appropriate standard.

first of all you cant say "absent the rings and blocking" because they make him what he is. a tough SOB, an amazingly hard worker and a great leader by example. a winner. very clutch. almost NEVER drops a ball. it's not a coincidence that all steeler WRs block. hines sets the bar high and demands that people emulate him. over the years the WRs made a lot of those downfield yards possible for FWP and the other backs. opposing LBs have to have their heads up or they will be taken off. when defending the run you have to account for him or he might knock you out or break your jaw. the guy plays hurt, is very consistent, and always manages to get open to give his qb a target. i'm not saying he definitely should be in, but hines ward has had an enormous impact on a team that in the last 10 years won 103 regular season games, 11 playoff games, went to 4 afc championship games and won 2 super bowls. stats are only a means to the end of determining how important a player is for his team, and how successful that team is. who on the steelers offense over the last 10 years is better than him, and how many teams were better than them?and it's not like he doesnt have good numbers. and i would rather throw it to ward on 3rd and 7 in the 4th Q of an important game than almost anyone in the league. or anyone i have ever seen play for that matter.

Your emphatic statement about Ward never dropping the ball led me to look it up. ProFootballFocus shows him with 7 drops this season and 9 drops last season. He's certainly not the worst, but he also isn't close to living up to your claim. (Of course, this is a negligible point with regard to the subject at hand.)

 

[DoubleG]

And this means...????

It really wasnt supposed to "mean" anything othen than whatever you might interpret on your own.

Okay - fair enough. I thought I was missing an implication. What they seemed to indicate to me (only 3 top 10 finishes in receiving yards in 11 seasons and 4 times finishing outside the top 25) - is that Ward isn't even a player that was truly dominant in his own era.

Sorry Hines, no HOF FOR YOU!

 

[Horrorshow]

I haven't read through this entire thread and I'm not a Steelers fan but (whether right or wrong) I think that #86 has a very realistic shot at the Pro Football Hall of Fame because of his Super Bowl MVP Award, his (slightly exaggerated) reputation as a blocker and the fact that he's scored more touchdowns and gained more yards than Swann or Stallworth.

Ward is a very visible player for a very visible franchise and perceived as fairly unique for a contemporary wide receiver. These factors will serve him well when it comes to grabbing votes for HoF induction imo. I think the fact that Ward has surpassed Swann and Stallworth's records is a huge factor - despite the fact that #86 has played during an era of inflated receiving statistics and that his numbers don't stack up well against the likes of Moss, Harrison, Owens etc.

If Ward doesn't make it expect the Art Monk controversy to pale in comparison as the Black & Gold faithful will go nuts if he's snubbed!

 

[Sheriff66]

I haven't read through this entire thread and I'm not a Steelers fan but (whether right or wrong) I think that #86 has a very realistic shot at the Pro Football Hall of Fame because of his Super Bowl MVP Award, his (slightly exaggerated) reputation as a blocker and the fact that he's scored more touchdowns and gained more yards than Swann or Stallworth.

Ward is a very visible player for a very visible franchise and perceived as fairly unique for a contemporary wide receiver. These factors will serve him well when it comes to grabbing votes for HoF induction imo. I think the fact that Ward has surpassed Swann and Stallworth's records is a huge factor - despite the fact that #86 has played during an era of inflated receiving statistics and that his numbers don't stack up well against the likes of Moss, Harrison, Owens etc.

If Ward doesn't make it expect the Art Monk controversy to pale in comparison as the Black & Gold faithful will go nuts if he's snubbed!

He'll be in, I have no doubts about it.

 

[Wadsworth]

I haven't read through this entire thread and I'm not a Steelers fan but (whether right or wrong) I think that #86 has a very realistic shot at the Pro Football Hall of Fame because of his Super Bowl MVP Award, his (slightly exaggerated) reputation as a blocker and the fact that he's scored more touchdowns and gained more yards than Swann or Stallworth.

Ward is a very visible player for a very visible franchise and perceived as fairly unique for a contemporary wide receiver. These factors will serve him well when it comes to grabbing votes for HoF induction imo. I think the fact that Ward has surpassed Swann and Stallworth's records is a huge factor - despite the fact that #86 has played during an era of inflated receiving statistics and that his numbers don't stack up well against the likes of Moss, Harrison, Owens etc.

If Ward doesn't make it expect the Art Monk controversy to pale in comparison as the Black & Gold faithful will go nuts if he's snubbed!

Swann had 336 career catches, 5,462 yards and 51 YDs. Stallworth had more with 537 catches for 8,723 and 63 TDs, but played 14 seasons. It was certainly a different era where WR stats were not as inflated as today, but even so why would Ward surpassing these numbers be huge? A lot of guys that will never even get a sniff oft HoF induction have or will pass these numbers. But I agree about the Black and Gold faithful whining, crying and complaining until he might get in just to make them be quiet about it.

 

[Tau837]

I haven't read through this entire thread and I'm not a Steelers fan but (whether right or wrong) I think that #86 has a very realistic shot at the Pro Football Hall of Fame because of his Super Bowl MVP Award, his (slightly exaggerated) reputation as a blocker and the fact that he's scored more touchdowns and gained more yards than Swann or Stallworth.

Ward is a very visible player for a very visible franchise and perceived as fairly unique for a contemporary wide receiver. These factors will serve him well when it comes to grabbing votes for HoF induction imo. I think the fact that Ward has surpassed Swann and Stallworth's records is a huge factor - despite the fact that #86 has played during an era of inflated receiving statistics and that his numbers don't stack up well against the likes of Moss, Harrison, Owens etc.

If Ward doesn't make it expect the Art Monk controversy to pale in comparison as the Black & Gold faithful will go nuts if he's snubbed!

Swann had 336 career catches, 5,462 yards and 51 YDs. Stallworth had more with 537 catches for 8,723 and 63 TDs, but played 14 seasons. It was certainly a different era where WR stats were not as inflated as today, but even so why would Ward surpassing these numbers be huge? A lot of guys that will never even get a sniff oft HoF induction have or will pass these numbers. But I agree about the Black and Gold faithful whining, crying and complaining until he might get in just to make them be quiet about it.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

He's never been among the best at his position = not HOF material.

 

[Horrorshow]

I haven't read through this entire thread and I'm not a Steelers fan but (whether right or wrong) I think that #86 has a very realistic shot at the Pro Football Hall of Fame because of his Super Bowl MVP Award, his (slightly exaggerated) reputation as a blocker and the fact that he's scored more touchdowns and gained more yards than Swann or Stallworth.

Ward is a very visible player for a very visible franchise and perceived as fairly unique for a contemporary wide receiver. These factors will serve him well when it comes to grabbing votes for HoF induction imo. I think the fact that Ward has surpassed Swann and Stallworth's records is a huge factor - despite the fact that #86 has played during an era of inflated receiving statistics and that his numbers don't stack up well against the likes of Moss, Harrison, Owens etc.

If Ward doesn't make it expect the Art Monk controversy to pale in comparison as the Black & Gold faithful will go nuts if he's snubbed!

Swann had 336 career catches, 5,462 yards and 51 YDs. Stallworth had more with 537 catches for 8,723 and 63 TDs, but played 14 seasons. It was certainly a different era where WR stats were not as inflated as today, but even so why would Ward surpassing these numbers be huge? A lot of guys that will never even get a sniff oft HoF induction have or will pass these numbers. But I agree about the Black and Gold faithful whining, crying and complaining until he might get in just to make them be quiet about it.

To answer your question, Ward surpassing Swann and Stallworth's franchise receiving records is to me a huge factor because those two men are obviously already in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.If Ward would have put up the exact same numbers, won the same amount of awards and Super Bowls for a team that didn't already have two Hall of Famers at the wide receiver position I don't think that #86 would make it to Canton. His receiving totals just aren't good enough. But the HoF doesn't work like that. Ward won't be a first ballot but he'll get his bronze bust. The selection committee will induct him because he's gone past Swann and Stallworth.

I honestly think that despite his great career, Stallworth's path to Canton immortality was made a lot easier because Swann was already there and #82 accumilated better receiving totals. Stallworth went in just one year after Swann, despite playing a much longer career.

Basically, Lynn Swann's induction has a lot to answer for. He was a very fine player who took a beating from the Raiders defensive backfield and made glorious, circus catches in high profile games but he's perhaps one of the least deserving modern members of the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

Absent from the top fifty of any pass receiving category leaderboard. Averaged just 2.9 receptions. 47.5 receiving yards and 0.4 TD’s a game. Logged just two career 50+ catch seasons. Never caught more than 880 yards in a single season. Accumulated 48 receptions, 907 receiving yards and 9 TD’s in 16 career post-season games.

It's important to bear in mind that the first part of Swann's career was played during the infamous "Dead Ball" era when the NFL was dominated by defense and rules encouraging the passing game where yet to be introduced. But - and it's a William Perry sized butt - there are several WR's who played during the same era as LS and produced comparable or even superior regular season numbers - who don't have a Bust in Canton, Ohio;

WR Receptions 1974/1982

444 = Harold Carmichael

436 = Ahmad Rashad

428 = Charlie Joiner*

420 = Drew Pearson

413 = Cliff Branch

399 = Steve Largent*

339 = Nat Moore

337 = Reggie Rucker

336 = Lynn Swann*

WR Receiving Yards 1974/1982

7257 = Cliff Branch

7194 = Charlie Joiner*

6889 = Drew Pearson

6783 = Harold Carmichael

6534 = Steve Largent*

5922 = Ahmad Rashad

5879 = Harold Jackson

5780 = Alfred Jenkins

5552 = Isaac Curtis

5535 = Mel Gray

5513 = Sammy White

5462 = Lynn Swann*

* denotes a member of the Pro Football Hall of Fame

 

[CanadianNFLJunkie]

Stop the madness! First ballot? Hes most likely not even a HOF, but first ballot?Fishing, right?

I wondering that too....why would he make it to the HOF, because he's a good blocker? How many blocking FB's are in the HOF? If CC and Monk aren't in the HOF YET then NO WAY would Ward make it. He'll probably sneak in the HOF in like 20 years from now but not 5-6-7 years after he retires.But then I'm still wondering why Swann made it too

 

[Horrorshow]

If CC and Monk aren't in the HOF YET then NO WAY would Ward make it.

Monk is in the Hall of Fame.

 

[phthalatemagic]

I would have been for Ward going to the HOF, until he cried.

 

[David Yudkin]

A lot will depend how long Ward plays. (Which for the record is my LEAST favorite criteria for HOF credentialing . . . playing longer should not make a player better.) But through age 33, here's how Ward ranks at the WR position since 1960:

RECEPTIONS

01 Jerry Rice 942

02 Marvin Harrison 927

03 Randy Moss 926

04 Torry Holt 920

05 Hines Ward 895

06 Cris Carter 834

07 Andre Reed 826

08 Isaac Bruce 813

09 Terrell Owens 801

10 Tim Brown 770

RECEIVING YARDS

01 Jerry Rice 15123

02 Randy Moss 14465

03 Torry Holt 13382

04 Marvin Harrison 12331

05 Isaac Bruce 12278

06 Steve Largent 12041

07 Michael Irvin 11904

08 Andre Reed 11764

09 Terrell Owens 11715

10 James Lofton 11251

11 Henry Ellard 11158

12 Hines Ward 10947

RECEIVING TD

01 Randy Moss 148

02 Jerry Rice 146

03 Terrell Owens 114

04 Marvin Harrison 110

05 Cris Carter 101

06 Steve Largent 95

07 Lance Alworth 85

08 Mark Clayton 84

09 Andre Rison 84

10 Art Powell 81

11 Andre Reed 80

12 Don Maynard 78

12 Hines Ward 78

14 Isaac Bruce 77

14 Paul Warfield 77

Some younger guys (Wayne, Ocho, etc.) might be added to this list in the next 2-3 years when they get to be 33 (and more current guys down the road).

But even though I don't think Ward was truly an elite performer on a year-by-year basis statistically, his TOTALS match up favorably with receivers in his age bracket from throughout the years.

 

[JohnnyU]

1st ballot? Hell, he's not even a 10th ballot HOFer

 

[Ghost Rider]

To answer your question, Ward surpassing Swann and Stallworth's franchise receiving records is to me a huge factor because those two men are obviously already in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

I am sorry, but that means absolutely nothing. How you compare to the peers of your era is what matters, now how well your numbers stack up vs. players who played many eras ago.

 

[Horrorshow]

To answer your question, Ward surpassing Swann and Stallworth's franchise receiving records is to me a huge factor because those two men are obviously already in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

I am sorry, but that means absolutely nothing. How you compare to the peers of your era is what matters, now how well your numbers stack up vs. players who played many eras ago.

So answer this for me. Do you think that Stallworth would be in the Hall of Fame if Swann hadn't made it to Canton, Ohio before him?

 

[DoubleG]

To answer your question, Ward surpassing Swann and Stallworth's franchise receiving records is to me a huge factor because those two men are obviously already in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

I am sorry, but that means absolutely nothing. How you compare to the peers of your era is what matters, now how well your numbers stack up vs. players who played many eras ago.

So answer this for me. Do you think that Stallworth would be in the Hall of Fame if Swann hadn't made it to Canton, Ohio before him?

Stallworth and Swann played in the same era. The point is flawed. Jay Cutler broke several Bears passing records this season - he aint going to the HOF becuase of it. Greg Olsen broke a Bears TD TE record (held by Ditka) - they aint carving the bust for him yet either. Breaking receiving records of guys who played 30 years ago is a very poor argument. How many times has he lead the league in receiving yards? Receiving TDs? None. Top 3 - any year of his career? Nope.ETA: My bad, he was 2nd in receptions once - in 11 seasons.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

Again, some of you guys are focusing solely on stats. The Hall voters do not do this, they don't care about fantasy points. They vote in the best football players and they vote in winners. Ward is an all-around football player and has 2 rings (and 1 SB MVP), so he'll get the nod over guys with similar or better statistics.

There are reasons that Riggins, Swann, and Stallworth are in and others from their generations are not. Super Bowl victories count for a lot with the Hall. A borderline guy with multiple rings is going to get in much more quickly than a guy with better stats and no championships (see Irvin, Michael vs. Carter, Cris.)

 

[Chase Stuart]

They vote in the best football players

Ward's not going to get in, then.

 

[CanadianNFLJunkie]

If CC and Monk aren't in the HOF YET then NO WAY would Ward make it.

Monk is in the Hall of Fame.

My bad I meant first time ballot

 

[Horrorshow]

To answer your question, Ward surpassing Swann and Stallworth's franchise receiving records is to me a huge factor because those two men are obviously already in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

I am sorry, but that means absolutely nothing. How you compare to the peers of your era is what matters, now how well your numbers stack up vs. players who played many eras ago.

So answer this for me. Do you think that Stallworth would be in the Hall of Fame if Swann hadn't made it to Canton, Ohio before him?

Stallworth and Swann played in the same era. The point is flawed. Jay Cutler broke several Bears passing records this season - he aint going to the HOF becuase of it. Greg Olsen broke a Bears TD TE record (held by Ditka) - they aint carving the bust for him yet either. Breaking receiving records of guys who played 30 years ago is a very poor argument. How many times has he lead the league in receiving yards? Receiving TDs? None. Top 3 - any year of his career? Nope.ETA: My bad, he was 2nd in receptions once - in 11 seasons.

I think that if Cutler and Olsen can knock off all of the passing and receiving records that Luckman and Ditka set for the Bears - and be selected to four Pro Bowls and win two Super Bowls and each a Super Bowl MVP award as Hines Ward has done then they should be inducted into the Hall of Fame. Not merely because of any single season records they may have set in Chicago this season.

 

[B-Deep]

Probably depends a lot on the people retiring near him as well. HE's a nice WR, given his accumulation of stats, his blocking rep, his MVP, he has a good shot. I think, though, that there are a lot of WRs that will go in ahead of him, so the question would be, is there a lull in that position where hines fits in.

 

[DoubleG]

Again, some of you guys are focusing solely on stats. The Hall voters do not do this, they don't care about fantasy points. They vote in the best football players and they vote in winners. Ward is an all-around football player and has 2 rings (and 1 SB MVP), so he'll get the nod over guys with similar or better statistics.

There are reasons that Riggins, Swann, and Stallworth are in and others from their generations are not. Super Bowl victories count for a lot with the Hall. A borderline guy with multiple rings is going to get in much more quickly than a guy with better stats and no championships (see Irvin, Michael vs. Carter, Cris.)

Riggins lead the NFL in rushing TDs two seasons in a row (1983 & 1984) - that was during the time that guys like Eric Dickerson and Walter Payton were playing. His 24 rushing TDs in 1983 is 5th ALL TIME in a single season for rushing TDs and 6th in total TDs. He was a dominant player in his era (which,as noted included some pretty amazing RBs as well)Swann lead the league in punt return yards his rookie season, then followed it up by leading the league in receiving TDs in 1975.

Now Stallworth is one place Ward backers might be able to hang their hat - he never lead the league in any statistical category. However, he was top 5 in recieving yards 3 times and top 6in receiving TDs 4 times.

My point here is that even some of the "borderline" players listed above lead the league (save for Stallworth) and dominated at their position, even for a short time. Ward is a "compiler" with guys like McCardell and Jimmy Smith still ahead of him. Even if he has a few more good years, other good but not great receivers playing now will pass him before he can be voted in - decreasing his chances further.

 

[Tau837]

Again, some of you guys are focusing solely on stats. The Hall voters do not do this, they don't care about fantasy points. They vote in the best football players and they vote in winners. Ward is an all-around football player and has 2 rings (and 1 SB MVP), so he'll get the nod over guys with similar or better statistics.

There are reasons that Riggins, Swann, and Stallworth are in and others from their generations are not. Super Bowl victories count for a lot with the Hall. A borderline guy with multiple rings is going to get in much more quickly than a guy with better stats and no championships (see Irvin, Michael vs. Carter, Cris.)

This is pretty unpersuasive. As far as I know the others of the generations of Riggins, Swann, and Stallworth who are deserving are in. I'm not sure what that has to do with Hines Ward, though. Riggins, Swann, and Stallworth are among the least qualified/deserving HOFers. It can be argued that each one of them should not be in. They should not be the benchmarks for anyone to get into the HOF.

 

[Tau837]

They vote in the best football players

Ward's not going to get in, then.

Except they don't only vote in the best football players. We already know that based on some of the guys who have gotten in and some of the guys who haven't (yet).

 

[Chase Stuart]

Hines Ward had awful numbers during the team's second SB run: 9 for 168 and 0 TDs in three games. That's 3 catches for 56 yards and 0 TDs per game.

In the first SB run? He averaged 3.75 catches for 65 yards and 0.75 TDs. Better numbers, but certainly not amazing numbers.

He won the SB MVP, but has otherwise been far from HOF-worthy in his other post-season games. For the most part, rings only help you when you have elite numbers en route to getting those rings (Riggins, Csonka, Swann).

 

[Comer]

They vote in the best football players

Ward's not going to get in, then.

XHe is an elite football player.

Steeler fans throw around the Elite word when it comes to Steeler players way to much. I have a felling you guys don't know what Elite means.

 

[Chase Stuart]

They vote in the best football players

Ward's not going to get in, then.

XHe is an elite football player.

He is not one of the elite players in NFL history.

 

[Hoss_Cartwright]

They vote in the best football players

Ward's not going to get in, then.

XHe is an elite football player.

Steeler fans throw around the Elite word when it comes to Steeler players way to much. I have a felling you guys don't know what Elite means.

...and we have a felling you don't know it's feeling

 

[Bri]

Bruce isn't borderline, he's in.Ward's blocking ability and post season experience will add something extra here if he even needs help getting in

We'll see. I could see it going either way, though he will probably make it. He never made 1st team All Pro and only made 2nd team All Pro once. It's not a great metric, but he only made 4 Pro Bowls. He has no significant awards. He will be out of the top 10 in TDs well before he is eligible, so his case will rest primarily upon his ranks in receptions and receiving yards.Regardless, Bruce has much better numbers than Ward will, so Bruce getting in doesn't tell us anything about Ward making it. I view Bruce as borderline and was trying to show that even the numbers I posted above wouldn't guarantee anything.The real issue is how many peers these guys had that were as good or better that will make the HOF ahead of them and how many are likely to make it from their peer groups.

Not sure how or when this turned into one vs the other. 15200 compared to 10900 isn't that close.1994-1998(when each started) may not seem like a big difference but it does in ways to me. Bruce was competing with Rice and Cris Carter(who this board recently crowned HOF). If it's Bruce played in two eras, that's fine but there's something there that Bruce deserves credit for.Said this before-200 yard games by a WR are dominating and super impressive. Bruce had a handful when he was younger meanwhile most guys are lucky to even have one in a career. That doesn't even bring up that being part of a bad team where the D flat out knows it's coming to you makes it even more impressive for me.1995 he had Chris Miller and Mark Rypien just before retirement throwing to him. Next best in rec yards was Troy Drayton with 458. The only other offensive threat was a young Bettis that got 637 yards rushing.He was the entire focus of the D and yet he grabbed 119 balls and he had games with 181, 191, 173 and 210 yards. This was a great year for WRs with Rice and Moore getting to be part of 6000+ yard offenses but Bruce wasn't.No, one year doesn't make a career but, there were already career stats mentioned.

 

[Tau837]

Bruce isn't borderline, he's in.Ward's blocking ability and post season experience will add something extra here if he even needs help getting in

We'll see. I could see it going either way, though he will probably make it. He never made 1st team All Pro and only made 2nd team All Pro once. It's not a great metric, but he only made 4 Pro Bowls. He has no significant awards. He will be out of the top 10 in TDs well before he is eligible, so his case will rest primarily upon his ranks in receptions and receiving yards.Regardless, Bruce has much better numbers than Ward will, so Bruce getting in doesn't tell us anything about Ward making it. I view Bruce as borderline and was trying to show that even the numbers I posted above wouldn't guarantee anything.The real issue is how many peers these guys had that were as good or better that will make the HOF ahead of them and how many are likely to make it from their peer groups.

Not sure how or when this turned into one vs the other. 15200 compared to 10900 isn't that close.1994-1998(when each started) may not seem like a big difference but it does in ways to me. Bruce was competing with Rice and Cris Carter(who this board recently crowned HOF). If it's Bruce played in two eras, that's fine but there's something there that Bruce deserves credit for.Said this before-200 yard games by a WR are dominating and super impressive. Bruce had a handful when he was younger meanwhile most guys are lucky to even have one in a career. That doesn't even bring up that being part of a bad team where the D flat out knows it's coming to you makes it even more impressive for me.1995 he had Chris Miller and Mark Rypien just before retirement throwing to him. Next best in rec yards was Troy Drayton with 458. The only other offensive threat was a young Bettis that got 637 yards rushing.He was the entire focus of the D and yet he grabbed 119 balls and he had games with 181, 191, 173 and 210 yards. This was a great year for WRs with Rice and Moore getting to be part of 6000+ yard offenses but Bruce wasn't.No, one year doesn't make a career but, there were already career stats mentioned.

You're right. Bruce is clearly better than Ward. I wasn't suggesting otherwise. The point I was trying to make is that IMO Bruce is a borderline candidate, which implies that (since he is clearly better than Ward) Ward doesn't have a chance.As for getting into Bruce's best year, I agree it was a great season. But he wasn't even 2nd team All Pro, so it can only help his case so much.As for the QBs he played with and the fact that he didn't get to be part of 6000 yard offenses, I don't think Bruce will get any sympathy on that front given he had the fortune to play in one of the best offenses of all time in St. Louis. And besides that, it is my view that players are judged for what they accomplished, not for what they might have accomplished under different circumstances.

 

[thatguy]

No way.

 

[kupcho1]

If you like stats there's one where Hines is the all time leader (and it's not even close): breaking linebacker jaws

I don't think anyone catches him on that one either.

 

[Bri]

As for getting into Bruce's best year, I agree it was a great season. But he wasn't even 2nd team All Pro, so it can only help his case so much.

I don't think many at all feel that way. Pointing out he wasn't 2nd team all-pro is minimizing 119 catches for 1781 yards and 13 TDs-again, on a team where he was the focal point of the defense. I've seen people around here minimize Jamal Lewis' 2k yard season or Ricky's 1800 yard season and other WR 100+catch seasons too. I'm not surprised about the Bruce comment, but I have never come across similar sentiment elsewhere. I feel like most people have a benchmark in their head 1500, 1800, 2000 and if a player hits that, they feel it's a great season.The counter here I suppose is how many WRs in the HOF had a year better than that one by Bruce? (and again, he has career stat totals to make it) How many have struggled to get 1000 yards when they were on a bad team and the only focus of the D?