Hines Ward - 1st ballot Hall of Famer? (1 Viewer)

[steelcityman]

"Over-hyped, cry baby, cheap shot artist? I would want to set my goals a little higher."

cry baby? Cheap shots? He knocked them dudes out clean, never took out knees or went after peoples heads, Keith Rivers hit was perfect. If by over hyped you mean like Wes Welker, then I would agree.

Your goals should be dealing with reality, stop taking as many meds, and pulling your head out of your ###.

You want the definition of a fine NFL player, Hines Ward was.

He didnt have an ACL, half Asian half black man playing football in America. Helped out kids from Asia come to America to see games.

Did he have issues, yup, a DUI that got thrown out. He hit people to hard(for the nice NFL folks). He played against one of the best defenses in history(the Ravens) every year, and while he get knocked down, got up and knocked someone else down.

Oh, won 2 bowls, MVP of one, played in another, pro bowler, all time franchise leader in stats, played his entire career for one team. LOVED by the town he played for.

If thats not what you want from a professional athlete, stop watching sports.

I dont know if he'll get in the HOF, I dont really care. He was a great player and Steeler...thats all that matters to me in the end...HOF'er in my book.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

True but if I were a rookie WR coming into the NFL and was told at the end of my career I could have the accomplishments and reputation of either Hines Ward or Randy Moss I would choose Ward's career.

Other than team accomplishments(a big but, I know) I would rather the Moss career by a mile.

2 rings, Super Bowl MVP, outstanding leader, superhero in Pittsburgh for life or a lot of TD catches, a couple NFL records and cast off by at least 4 teams (and one of them twice) and counting and a reputation as a loaf. You can tell this is a FF board.

Nice dig. I already acknowledged team accomplishments but as for the respective indiviual careers I choose the one that was more productive than the other by a lot, even if not up to "what coulda been" standards. Moss was one of the greatest receivers of alltime and equally one of the biggest knuckleheads as well but the talent differential between he and Ward was so staggering that choosing Ward smacks of homerism onb overdrive.

Moss is WAY more talented. Which makes the fact that he was cast aside over and over while Ward played his entire career with one team (and other than a long snapper in Denver is the only player from the '98 draft still with the team that drafted him through last season) all the more telling. Moss is, maybe other than Jerry Rice, the most talented and devastating receiver that ever laced up shoes. But he is such a nitwit that he managed to get cut by 4-5 different teams. What does that tell you? There's way more to football than just numbers.

 

[David Yudkin]

True but if I were a rookie WR coming into the NFL and was told at the end of my career I could have the accomplishments and reputation of either Hines Ward or Randy Moss I would choose Ward's career.

Other than team accomplishments(a big but, I know) I would rather the Moss career by a mile.

2 rings, Super Bowl MVP, outstanding leader, superhero in Pittsburgh for life or a lot of TD catches, a couple NFL records and cast off by at least 4 teams (and one of them twice) and counting and a reputation as a loaf. You can tell this is a FF board.

Which team that Moss played on had a defense anywhere near what the Steelers had?

 

[Evilgrin 72]

True but if I were a rookie WR coming into the NFL and was told at the end of my career I could have the accomplishments and reputation of either Hines Ward or Randy Moss I would choose Ward's career.

Other than team accomplishments(a big but, I know) I would rather the Moss career by a mile.

2 rings, Super Bowl MVP, outstanding leader, superhero in Pittsburgh for life or a lot of TD catches, a couple NFL records and cast off by at least 4 teams (and one of them twice) and counting and a reputation as a loaf. You can tell this is a FF board.

You forgot, "First-ballot Hall of Famer" vs. "Hoping to get in via the Art Monk rule".Moss, if he plays at all this year will climb to #3 all-time in receiving yards (from #5 currently) and he's already #2 in TDs. That's simply a different order of magnitude from Ward's career. Ward has two things going for him; he played his entire career on one team, and that team was good and won a couple Super Bowls.

I agree that Moss is a surefire HOFer and that Ward is borderline, based on their #s. I'm not disputing that. They're very different types of players - Moss is a huge, ultra-fast guy built to be a deep threat and a red-zone target. Ward is neither. But if you give me a crystal ball and I can draft either player knowing how things would shake out, I'll still take 14 years of Ward over 4-5 years of Moss' ridiculous production followed by his being such a flake and a whiner that he's drummed out of town, which is what you get (best case) if you draft Randy Moss.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I hate the Pittsburgh Steelers but I respect them as much as any team. Hines Ward is well spoken of in the media circles and that is who votes. I hate to break the news to folks but much like Tony Dungy will be going into the HoF whenever his name is called, Hines Ward will also go in.

For the last 10-12 years when I write about the NFL history during this time period I think of Tom Brady and the Patriots, Peyton Manning and the Colts, Ray Lewis/Ed Reed and the Ravens, Hines Ward went toe to toe with these guys and managed to gather up over 1,000 receptions, 2 Super Bowl Rings, Super Bowl MVP(icing on the cake for me), umpteen playoff appearances, playoff upsets going on the road and winning right thru the Super Bowl.

People can hate on Ward, if it makes you feel better that's fine but Ward is going to the Hall of Fame. If they make him wait a couple years so be it but I would put in 1st ballot for Hines Ward. Guy was a baller, a blocker, a man, a warrior, a tactician at WR, a leader, fearless, the guy played the position like a throwback to the days when receivers had to block as much as catch...he did both obviously.

He had a very decorated career and I enjoyed the way he played the game, the way it should be played.

 

[dutch]

Moss is WAY more talented. Which makes the fact that he was cast aside over and over while Ward played his entire career with one team (and other than a long snapper in Denver is the only player from the '98 draft still with the team that drafted him through last season) all the more telling. Moss is, maybe other than Jerry Rice, the most talented and devastating receiver that ever laced up shoes. But he is such a nitwit that he managed to get cut by 4-5 different teams. What does that tell you? There's way more to football than just numbers.

As germane to this discussion, it tells me I draft Randy Moss for my team over Hines Ward everyday and twice on Sunday. Numbers don't tell the whole story but they do paint quite the picture.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

True but if I were a rookie WR coming into the NFL and was told at the end of my career I could have the accomplishments and reputation of either Hines Ward or Randy Moss I would choose Ward's career.

Other than team accomplishments(a big but, I know) I would rather the Moss career by a mile.

2 rings, Super Bowl MVP, outstanding leader, superhero in Pittsburgh for life or a lot of TD catches, a couple NFL records and cast off by at least 4 teams (and one of them twice) and counting and a reputation as a loaf. You can tell this is a FF board.

Which team that Moss played on had a defense anywhere near what the Steelers had?

'07 Patriots

 

[Evilgrin 72]

Moss is WAY more talented. Which makes the fact that he was cast aside over and over while Ward played his entire career with one team (and other than a long snapper in Denver is the only player from the '98 draft still with the team that drafted him through last season) all the more telling. Moss is, maybe other than Jerry Rice, the most talented and devastating receiver that ever laced up shoes. But he is such a nitwit that he managed to get cut by 4-5 different teams. What does that tell you? There's way more to football than just numbers.

As germane to this discussion, it tells me I draft Randy Moss for my team over Hines Ward everyday and twice on Sunday. Numbers don't tell the whole story but they do paint quite the picture.

OK, fair enough. I disagree, and I bet the Steelers' front office would too. I'll let their track record speak for itself.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

I hate the Pittsburgh Steelers but I respect them as much as any team. Hines Ward is well spoken of in the media circles and that is who votes. I hate to break the news to folks but much like Tony Dungy will be going into the HoF whenever his name is called, Hines Ward will also go in. For the last 10-12 years when I write about the NFL history during this time period I think of Tom Brady and the Patriots, Peyton Manning and the Colts, Ray Lewis/Ed Reed and the Ravens, Hines Ward went toe to toe with these guys and managed to gather up over 1,000 receptions, 2 Super Bowl Rings, Super Bowl MVP(icing on the cake for me), umpteen playoff appearances, playoff upsets going on the road and winning right thru the Super Bowl. People can hate on Ward, if it makes you feel better that's fine but Ward is going to the Hall of Fame. If they make him wait a couple years so be it but I would put in 1st ballot for Hines Ward. Guy was a baller, a blocker, a man, a warrior, a tactician at WR, a leader, fearless, the guy played the position like a throwback to the days when receivers had to block as much as catch...he did both obviously. He had a very decorated career and I enjoyed the way he played the game, the way it should be played.

 

[CalBear]

People can hate on Ward, if it makes you feel better that's fine but Ward is going to the Hall of Fame. If they make him wait a couple years so be it but I would put in 1st ballot for Hines Ward. Guy was a baller, a blocker, a man, a warrior, a tactician at WR, a leader, fearless, the guy played the position like a throwback to the days when receivers had to block as much as catch...he did both obviously.

Being the best blocking WR is about as important as being the best pass-catching linebacker; Vrabel for HOF, anyone?

 

[Wadsworth]

True but if I were a rookie WR coming into the NFL and was told at the end of my career I could have the accomplishments and reputation of either Hines Ward or Randy Moss I would choose Ward's career.

Other than team accomplishments(a big but, I know) I would rather the Moss career by a mile.

2 rings, Super Bowl MVP, outstanding leader, superhero in Pittsburgh for life or a lot of TD catches, a couple NFL records and cast off by at least 4 teams (and one of them twice) and counting and a reputation as a loaf. You can tell this is a FF board.

Nice dig. I already acknowledged team accomplishments but as for the respective indiviual careers I choose the one that was more productive than the other by a lot, even if not up to "what coulda been" standards. Moss was one of the greatest receivers of alltime and equally one of the biggest knuckleheads as well but the talent differential between he and Ward was so staggering that choosing Ward smacks of homerism onb overdrive.

Moss is WAY more talented. Which makes the fact that he was cast aside over and over while Ward played his entire career with one team (and other than a long snapper in Denver is the only player from the '98 draft still with the team that drafted him through last season) all the more telling. Moss is, maybe other than Jerry Rice, the most talented and devastating receiver that ever laced up shoes. But he is such a nitwit that he managed to get cut by 4-5 different teams. What does that tell you? There's way more to football than just numbers.

"Every time I call it a game, you call it a business. And every time I call it a business, you call it a game."

The good guy that plays the game the right way argument only matters when he plays for the Steelers. You see anyone using that argument to get Warrick Dunn in the Hall? Dunn was as good a player and twice the person, but that does not change the fact that he likely does not deserve spot in Canton either.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Being the best blocking WR is about as important as being the best pass-catching linebacker; Vrabel for HOF, anyone?

And let's remember that there is no way to validate or quantify Ward supposedly being the best blocking WR ever, but Steelers fans have said it so much, that they actually believe it is a fact now. I mean, unless you have watched every WR who has ever played the game, since it is impossible to track that kind of thing, how can ANYONE say who the best is at that?

 

[Wadsworth]

Being the best blocking WR is about as important as being the best pass-catching linebacker; Vrabel for HOF, anyone?

And let's remember that there is no way to validate or quantify Ward supposedly being the best blocking WR ever, but Steelers fans have said it so much, that they actually believe it is a fact now. I mean, unless you have watched every WR who has ever played the game, since it is impossible to track that kind of thing, how can ANYONE say who the best is at that?

Exactly. You would think Hines Ward was the only WR to ever throw a block.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

As much of the Pro-Ward posting in this thread is made by passionate Steeler fans, there's nearly as much anti-Ward sentiment driven by the fact that fans of other teams hate the Steeler fans' blind homerism.

No one's in here peddling Heath Miller for HOF - enough with the hyperbole. Likewise, no one here is saying Louis Lipps or Yancey Thigpen belong in the HOF.

Hines Ward, ASIDE FROM THE INTANGIBLES, is #8 all time in receptions, #18 all time in yards, and #13 all time in TDs. By every measurable the stat-heads want to throw out there, as it stands right now, he's had one of the 15 or so best statistical careers of any wide receiver to ever play professional football. You can talk all day about how guys like Calvin Johnson and Andre Johnson will surpass those numbers, but we don't know that yet. Yes, guys like Marvin Harrison, Terrell Owens, Randy Moss, Isaac Bruce and others who were vertical threats in pass-happy offenses have gaudier numbers in recent years. They're different types of players than Ward.

Let's not make it seem like the idea of his making it on statistical merit is completely preposterous and all that he has going for him are unmeasurables like blocking and leadership. He put up these numbers with one team, a marquee team at that, and won himself a couple of rings and an award like SB MVP along the way. These are things voters like. I think he eventually gets in, but I won't be heartbroken if he doesn't. Steeler fans are more than satisfied with how his career played out. It seems like non-Steeler fans will be much more upset if he does get in than we will be if he doesn't.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

Being the best blocking WR is about as important as being the best pass-catching linebacker; Vrabel for HOF, anyone?

And let's remember that there is no way to validate or quantify Ward supposedly being the best blocking WR ever, but Steelers fans have said it so much, that they actually believe it is a fact now. I mean, unless you have watched every WR who has ever played the game, since it is impossible to track that kind of thing, how can ANYONE say who the best is at that?

It's not some grass roots campaign started by Steeler fans. It's the talking heads on TV, the color guys, the studio analysts, who said this so much that it's now accepted as fact by many. I can say he's the best I've seen, but all-time? I don't know, I've only watched football since the late 70s.

 

[belljr]

I figure if you get a rule named after you, you are HOF worthy.....

 

[Evilgrin 72]

The good guy that plays the game the right way argument only matters when he plays for the Steelers is on the brink anyway and that fact might sway old-school voters who typically under-represent WRs because they're viewed as primadonnas and not "real" football players. You see anyone using that argument to get Warrick Dunn in the Hall? Dunn was as good a player and twice the person, but that does not change the fact that he likely does not deserve spot in Canton either.

 

[David Yudkin]

True but if I were a rookie WR coming into the NFL and was told at the end of my career I could have the accomplishments and reputation of either Hines Ward or Randy Moss I would choose Ward's career.

Other than team accomplishments(a big but, I know) I would rather the Moss career by a mile.

2 rings, Super Bowl MVP, outstanding leader, superhero in Pittsburgh for life or a lot of TD catches, a couple NFL records and cast off by at least 4 teams (and one of them twice) and counting and a reputation as a loaf. You can tell this is a FF board.

Which team that Moss played on had a defense anywhere near what the Steelers had?

'07 Patriots

So every season Moss had a top defense he went to the SB. How many rings would he have won playing on the Steelers? I would guess more than 0. How many rings would Ward have had playing on the Vikings / Raiders / Patriots / Titans? I would guess 0.Ward had a great career, but he clearly benefitted from the environment he was in while others suffered playing for the teams they played on. Certainly there is no way to prove or support it, but I would guess that a lot of other WR that played 14 years on the Steelers would have won 2 rings (or perhaps more).

 

[Copeman]

People can hate on Ward, if it makes you feel better that's fine but Ward is going to the Hall of Fame. If they make him wait a couple years so be it but I would put in 1st ballot for Hines Ward. Guy was a baller, a blocker, a man, a warrior, a tactician at WR, a leader, fearless, the guy played the position like a throwback to the days when receivers had to block as much as catch...he did both obviously.

Being the best blocking WR is about as important as being the best pass-catching linebacker;

You don't think having a WR who is good at blocking is important on a run first offense? Do you even follow the game?

 

[Evilgrin 72]

True but if I were a rookie WR coming into the NFL and was told at the end of my career I could have the accomplishments and reputation of either Hines Ward or Randy Moss I would choose Ward's career.

Other than team accomplishments(a big but, I know) I would rather the Moss career by a mile.

2 rings, Super Bowl MVP, outstanding leader, superhero in Pittsburgh for life or a lot of TD catches, a couple NFL records and cast off by at least 4 teams (and one of them twice) and counting and a reputation as a loaf. You can tell this is a FF board.

Which team that Moss played on had a defense anywhere near what the Steelers had?

'07 Patriots

So every season Moss had a top defense he went to the SB. How many rings would he have won playing on the Steelers? I would guess more than 0. How many rings would Ward have had playing on the Vikings / Raiders / Patriots / Titans? I would guess 0.Ward had a great career, but he clearly benefitted from the environment he was in while others suffered playing for the teams they played on. Certainly there is no way to prove or support it, but I would guess that a lot of other WR that played 14 years on the Steelers would have won 2 rings (or perhaps more).

He benefited from the environment he was in as far as winning goes about as much as he probably suffered from it statistically. There's no way to prove or support that either, but had he played on the Colts his whole career like Harrison did with Manning throwing to him, he might only have 1 ring instead of two, but might have 1,500 catches for 15,000 yards and 100+ TDs and we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

 

[Copeman]

True but if I were a rookie WR coming into the NFL and was told at the end of my career I could have the accomplishments and reputation of either Hines Ward or Randy Moss I would choose Ward's career.

Other than team accomplishments(a big but, I know) I would rather the Moss career by a mile.

2 rings, Super Bowl MVP, outstanding leader, superhero in Pittsburgh for life or a lot of TD catches, a couple NFL records and cast off by at least 4 teams (and one of them twice) and counting and a reputation as a loaf. You can tell this is a FF board.

Which team that Moss played on had a defense anywhere near what the Steelers had?

'07 Patriots

So every season Moss had a top defense he went to the SB. How many rings would he have won playing on the Steelers? I would guess more than 0. How many rings would Ward have had playing on the Vikings / Raiders / Patriots / Titans? I would guess 0.Ward had a great career, but he clearly benefitted from the environment he was in while others suffered playing for the teams they played on. Certainly there is no way to prove or support it, but I would guess that a lot of other WR that played 14 years on the Steelers would have won 2 rings (or perhaps more).

This argument is so old and tired. It's worn out. You could insert anyones name into it and it would have the same effect.

 

[dutch]

You don't think having a WR who is good at blocking is important on a run first offense? Do you even follow the game?

 

[CalBear]

People can hate on Ward, if it makes you feel better that's fine but Ward is going to the Hall of Fame. If they make him wait a couple years so be it but I would put in 1st ballot for Hines Ward. Guy was a baller, a blocker, a man, a warrior, a tactician at WR, a leader, fearless, the guy played the position like a throwback to the days when receivers had to block as much as catch...he did both obviously.

Being the best blocking WR is about as important as being the best pass-catching linebacker;

You don't think having a WR who is good at blocking is important on a run first offense? Do you even follow the game?

What's the difference between being a good blocking WR and "the best" blocking WR?

 

[Copeman]

People can hate on Ward, if it makes you feel better that's fine but Ward is going to the Hall of Fame. If they make him wait a couple years so be it but I would put in 1st ballot for Hines Ward. Guy was a baller, a blocker, a man, a warrior, a tactician at WR, a leader, fearless, the guy played the position like a throwback to the days when receivers had to block as much as catch...he did both obviously.

Being the best blocking WR is about as important as being the best pass-catching linebacker;

You don't think having a WR who is good at blocking is important on a run first offense? Do you even follow the game?

What's the difference between being a good blocking WR and "the best" blocking WR?

The HOF.

 

[Kenny Powers]

True but if I were a rookie WR coming into the NFL and was told at the end of my career I could have the accomplishments and reputation of either Hines Ward or Randy Moss I would choose Ward's career.

Other than team accomplishments(a big but, I know) I would rather the Moss career by a mile.

2 rings, Super Bowl MVP, outstanding leader, superhero in Pittsburgh for life or a lot of TD catches, a couple NFL records and cast off by at least 4 teams (and one of them twice) and counting and a reputation as a loaf. You can tell this is a FF board.

Nice dig. I already acknowledged team accomplishments but as for the respective indiviual careers I choose the one that was more productive than the other by a lot, even if not up to "what coulda been" standards. Moss was one of the greatest receivers of alltime and equally one of the biggest knuckleheads as well but the talent differential between he and Ward was so staggering that choosing Ward smacks of homerism onb overdrive.

Which is why its dumb to compare one of the 3 greatest WRs ever to Ward as an argument, but carry on...

 

[dutch]

True but if I were a rookie WR coming into the NFL and was told at the end of my career I could have the accomplishments and reputation of either Hines Ward or Randy Moss I would choose Ward's career.

Other than team accomplishments(a big but, I know) I would rather the Moss career by a mile.

2 rings, Super Bowl MVP, outstanding leader, superhero in Pittsburgh for life or a lot of TD catches, a couple NFL records and cast off by at least 4 teams (and one of them twice) and counting and a reputation as a loaf. You can tell this is a FF board.

Nice dig. I already acknowledged team accomplishments but as for the respective indiviual careers I choose the one that was more productive than the other by a lot, even if not up to "what coulda been" standards. Moss was one of the greatest receivers of alltime and equally one of the biggest knuckleheads as well but the talent differential between he and Ward was so staggering that choosing Ward smacks of homerism onb overdrive.

Which is why its dumb to compare one of the 3 greatest WRs ever to Ward as an argument, but carry on...

Godsbrother set up ther hypothetical, I repsonded. What's so dumb about reponding to what was presented?

 

[Wadsworth]

As much of the Pro-Ward posting in this thread is made by passionate Steeler fans, there's nearly as much anti-Ward sentiment driven by the fact that fans of other teams hate the Steeler fans' blind homerism.No one's in here peddling Heath Miller for HOF - enough with the hyperbole. Likewise, no one here is saying Louis Lipps or Yancey Thigpen belong in the HOF.Hines Ward, ASIDE FROM THE INTANGIBLES, is #8 all time in receptions, #18 all time in yards, and #13 all time in TDs. By every measurable the stat-heads want to throw out there, as it stands right now, he's had one of the 15 or so best statistical careers of any wide receiver to ever play professional football. You can talk all day about how guys like Calvin Johnson and Andre Johnson will surpass those numbers, but we don't know that yet. Yes, guys like Marvin Harrison, Terrell Owens, Randy Moss, Isaac Bruce and others who were vertical threats in pass-happy offenses have gaudier numbers in recent years. They're different types of players than Ward.Let's not make it seem like the idea of his making it on statistical merit is completely preposterous and all that he has going for him are unmeasurables like blocking and leadership. He put up these numbers with one team, a marquee team at that, and won himself a couple of rings and an award like SB MVP along the way. These are things voters like. I think he eventually gets in, but I won't be heartbroken if he doesn't. Steeler fans are more than satisfied with how his career played out. It seems like non-Steeler fans will be much more upset if he does get in than we will be if he doesn't.

Ward went for over 1,100 yards three times in his career. 16 WRs went for over 1,100 yards in 2011, 10 in 2010, 16 in 2009, 10 in 2008. It is not like 1,100 is that difficult. The guy is a compiler, and was never one of the best.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

Michael Jordan famously practiced as hard as he played. He made sure every man on that team, 1-13, ran ragged every day and never took a second off. Teammates hated him for the way he would dog them every single day. He wanted to make sure everyone on that team was giving 100%. Larry Bird used to be the first guy at practice every single day, to get better and to set an example to his teammates.

Allen Iverson was "talkin' 'bout PRACTICE, man. Not the game... PRACTICE."

Hines Ward, upon his retirement inspired LaMarr Woodley to call him the greatest leader he'd ever played with and to say that he "hope I'll be just like him someday." That's a LB talking about a WR.

Randy Moss said "I play when I want to play."

Maybe some of you don't think stuff like this matters because it doesn't show up on a stat sheet, or you think it matters, but not as much as a bunch of extra TD catches. I don't know how many of you have ever played a team sport at a high level, but I'd venture to say not that many if you truly believe that Ward didn't make his whole team better by leading by example. Just because you can't put an exact number on it doesn't mean it's not important.

And with that, I'm done here. Time will tell if he gets in or not, if he does, terrific, he deserves it, IMO, as someone who's watched every snap of his career. If he doesn't, I don't really care much. He delivered titles for us, and no one in Pittsburgh will give a crap if he's in the HOF or not, he'll never have to buy a beer in that town again. Maybe in any town, given how many Steeler fans there are everywhere. I've gotten free beers and free food a number of times just for wearing his jersey, for Christ's sake.

Godspeed, 86.

 

[The_Man]

Can anyone show me a shred of evidence that Ward was "the best blocking WR in the game," aside from a collection of Youtube clips showing him blindsiding guys running full-speed in the opposite direction who never see him coming?

 

[Wadsworth]

Michael Jordan famously practiced as hard as he played. He made sure every man on that team, 1-13, ran ragged every day and never took a second off. Teammates hated him for the way he would dog them every single day. He wanted to make sure everyone on that team was giving 100%. Larry Bird used to be the first guy at practice every single day, to get better and to set an example to his teammates.

Allen Iverson was "talkin' 'bout PRACTICE, man. Not the game... PRACTICE."

Hines Ward, upon his retirement inspired LaMarr Woodley to call him the greatest leader he'd ever played with and to say that he "hope I'll be just like him someday." That's a LB talking about a WR.

Randy Moss said "I play when I want to play."

Maybe some of you don't think stuff like this matters because it doesn't show up on a stat sheet, or you think it matters, but not as much as a bunch of extra TD catches. I don't know how many of you have ever played a team sport at a high level, but I'd venture to say not that many if you truly believe that Ward didn't make his whole team better by leading by example. Just because you can't put an exact number on it doesn't mean it's not important.

And with that, I'm done here. Time will tell if he gets in or not, if he does, terrific, he deserves it, IMO, as someone who's watched every snap of his career. If he doesn't, I don't really care much. He delivered titles for us, and no one in Pittsburgh will give a crap if he's in the HOF or not, he'll never have to buy a beer in that town again. Maybe in any town, given how many Steeler fans there are everywhere. I've gotten free beers and free food a number of times just for wearing his jersey, for Christ's sake.

Godspeed, 86.

Hines Ward and Michael Jordan? Really?

 

[Chase Stuart]

I'm not in the pro-Ward camp, and I think Steelers players are generally overrated. But we have to at least present the argument fairly, and Ward has been underrated by some because of his team's run-first philosophy, IMO.

From 2001 to 2005, Torry Holt led the league with an incredible 7,064 receiving yards. Holt ranked 5th, 7th, 1st, 4th and 6th in receiving yards each season. He was certainly playing at an elite level, getting 4 pro bowls and 1 first-team all-pro nod. This was roughly the prime of Ward's career, and he ranked 8th with 5,474 receiving yards. Impressive, but far behind Holt and Harrison, and still a bit back of Moss, TO (missed a portion of a season), Mason and Joe Horn. But consider the opporunities.

From '01 to '05, the Steelers threw 2,274 passes. The Rams threw 2,965 passes. Ward averaged 2.41 yards per team attempt; Holt averaged 2.38 yards per team attempt. It's hard to say what would happen if you switched their teams. I kind of think that Ward would have been worse on STL than Holt was, but that Holt also would have been worse for PIT than Ward was. But maybe that's just because both players seemed like such good fits for their teams.

But when looking at Ward's numbers, you have to recognize that during the prime of his career, his team ranked 28th, 16th, 10th, 32nd and 32nd in pass attempts. All things being equal, the more valuable player produces over more attempts. Holt probably added substantially more value over St. Louis' 3000 attempts than Ward did, but that's not really Ward's fault. In some ways, it was easier for Ward to achieve higher Y/A numbers, as he wasn't competing with as many talented weapons in the passing game. But either way, you have to get past the 7064>5474 thing. For a five-year period, Ward was an elite receiver.

But you can't just do this for Ward. I think Jimmy Smith is criminally underrated for the same reasons (and the fact that he didn't hang on for compiler years). Similarly, Steve Smith is a HOF caliber player who got stuck with putrid quarterbacks. Put Steve Smith on the GSOT or the Steelers and I think he is a HOFer in the eyes of many. We each will come out in our own way on this, but I do think some Ward haters don't give his statistics the appropriate treatment.

 

[Copeman]

Michael Jordan famously practiced as hard as he played. He made sure every man on that team, 1-13, ran ragged every day and never took a second off. Teammates hated him for the way he would dog them every single day. He wanted to make sure everyone on that team was giving 100%. Larry Bird used to be the first guy at practice every single day, to get better and to set an example to his teammates.

Allen Iverson was "talkin' 'bout PRACTICE, man. Not the game... PRACTICE."

Hines Ward, upon his retirement inspired LaMarr Woodley to call him the greatest leader he'd ever played with and to say that he "hope I'll be just like him someday." That's a LB talking about a WR.

Randy Moss said "I play when I want to play."

Maybe some of you don't think stuff like this matters because it doesn't show up on a stat sheet, or you think it matters, but not as much as a bunch of extra TD catches. I don't know how many of you have ever played a team sport at a high level, but I'd venture to say not that many if you truly believe that Ward didn't make his whole team better by leading by example. Just because you can't put an exact number on it doesn't mean it's not important.

And with that, I'm done here. Time will tell if he gets in or not, if he does, terrific, he deserves it, IMO, as someone who's watched every snap of his career. If he doesn't, I don't really care much. He delivered titles for us, and no one in Pittsburgh will give a crap if he's in the HOF or not, he'll never have to buy a beer in that town again. Maybe in any town, given how many Steeler fans there are everywhere. I've gotten free beers and free food a number of times just for wearing his jersey, for Christ's sake.

Godspeed, 86.

Hines Ward and Michael Jordan? Really?

The point he was making, as are a few other points, just completely buzzed straight over your head huh?

 

[Godsbrother]

True but if I were a rookie WR coming into the NFL and was told at the end of my career I could have the accomplishments and reputation of either Hines Ward or Randy Moss I would choose Ward's career.

Other than team accomplishments(a big but, I know) I would rather the Moss career by a mile.

2 rings, Super Bowl MVP, outstanding leader, superhero in Pittsburgh for life or a lot of TD catches, a couple NFL records and cast off by at least 4 teams (and one of them twice) and counting and a reputation as a loaf. You can tell this is a FF board.

Which team that Moss played on had a defense anywhere near what the Steelers had?

'07 Patriots

Well if Yudkin wants to play this game tell me which QBs Moss had throwing to him that were worse than Kordell Stewart, Mike Tomczak, Tommy Maddox and Kent Graham.

 

[Wadsworth]

Michael Jordan famously practiced as hard as he played. He made sure every man on that team, 1-13, ran ragged every day and never took a second off. Teammates hated him for the way he would dog them every single day. He wanted to make sure everyone on that team was giving 100%. Larry Bird used to be the first guy at practice every single day, to get better and to set an example to his teammates.

Allen Iverson was "talkin' 'bout PRACTICE, man. Not the game... PRACTICE."

Hines Ward, upon his retirement inspired LaMarr Woodley to call him the greatest leader he'd ever played with and to say that he "hope I'll be just like him someday." That's a LB talking about a WR.

Randy Moss said "I play when I want to play."

Maybe some of you don't think stuff like this matters because it doesn't show up on a stat sheet, or you think it matters, but not as much as a bunch of extra TD catches. I don't know how many of you have ever played a team sport at a high level, but I'd venture to say not that many if you truly believe that Ward didn't make his whole team better by leading by example. Just because you can't put an exact number on it doesn't mean it's not important.

And with that, I'm done here. Time will tell if he gets in or not, if he does, terrific, he deserves it, IMO, as someone who's watched every snap of his career. If he doesn't, I don't really care much. He delivered titles for us, and no one in Pittsburgh will give a crap if he's in the HOF or not, he'll never have to buy a beer in that town again. Maybe in any town, given how many Steeler fans there are everywhere. I've gotten free beers and free food a number of times just for wearing his jersey, for Christ's sake.

Godspeed, 86.

Hines Ward and Michael Jordan? Really?

The point he was making, as are a few other points, just completely buzzed straight over your head huh?

The point he is making does not matter. People buying him drinks when he wears a Ward jersey is not a Hall of Fame criteria. Yes, Ward is an icon in Pitt and should be, but so what? Let me ask you this, is Tom Brady a Hall of Fame QB? Yes. Is it because he played the game the right way or because his play on the field earned him a spot? Ward has not earned a spot in the Hall, but will likely get there anyway because the huge Steeler fan base will demand it. I understand that that is how it works, but it does not mean I have to like it.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Being the best blocking WR is about as important as being the best pass-catching linebacker; Vrabel for HOF, anyone?

And let's remember that there is no way to validate or quantify Ward supposedly being the best blocking WR ever, but Steelers fans have said it so much, that they actually believe it is a fact now. I mean, unless you have watched every WR who has ever played the game, since it is impossible to track that kind of thing, how can ANYONE say who the best is at that?

It's not some grass roots campaign started by Steeler fans. It's the talking heads on TV, the color guys, the studio analysts, who said this so much that it's now accepted as fact by many. I can say he's the best I've seen, but all-time? I don't know, I've only watched football since the late 70s.

Okay, but a lot of inaccurate things get said by a few talking heads, and before you know it, everyone is repeating it like it is fact. But it doesn't make it so. Plus, in the case of Ward and his blocking, the Steelers offense used to be so non-flashy that they really didn't have a big name or two to talk up all of the time, so it was easy to hype up Ward's blocking as one of those things that stood out about their offense. On the flip side, Rod Smith used to frequently get praised for his blocking as well, but it wasn't beaten to death because you always had John Elway or Terrell Davis or the many RBs they would produce out of nowhere to talk about. A WR's blocking skills probably aren't gonna get talked about much when the offense also features a top QB of all-time, a 2,000 yard rusher, and one of the best TEs ever.

 

[Copeman]

Michael Jordan famously practiced as hard as he played. He made sure every man on that team, 1-13, ran ragged every day and never took a second off. Teammates hated him for the way he would dog them every single day. He wanted to make sure everyone on that team was giving 100%. Larry Bird used to be the first guy at practice every single day, to get better and to set an example to his teammates.

Allen Iverson was "talkin' 'bout PRACTICE, man. Not the game... PRACTICE."

Hines Ward, upon his retirement inspired LaMarr Woodley to call him the greatest leader he'd ever played with and to say that he "hope I'll be just like him someday." That's a LB talking about a WR.

Randy Moss said "I play when I want to play."

Maybe some of you don't think stuff like this matters because it doesn't show up on a stat sheet, or you think it matters, but not as much as a bunch of extra TD catches. I don't know how many of you have ever played a team sport at a high level, but I'd venture to say not that many if you truly believe that Ward didn't make his whole team better by leading by example. Just because you can't put an exact number on it doesn't mean it's not important.

And with that, I'm done here. Time will tell if he gets in or not, if he does, terrific, he deserves it, IMO, as someone who's watched every snap of his career. If he doesn't, I don't really care much. He delivered titles for us, and no one in Pittsburgh will give a crap if he's in the HOF or not, he'll never have to buy a beer in that town again. Maybe in any town, given how many Steeler fans there are everywhere. I've gotten free beers and free food a number of times just for wearing his jersey, for Christ's sake.

Godspeed, 86.

Hines Ward and Michael Jordan? Really?

The point he was making, as are a few other points, just completely buzzed straight over your head huh?

The point he is making does not matter. People buying him drinks when he wears a Ward jersey is not a Hall of Fame criteria. Yes, Ward is an icon in Pitt and should be, but so what? Let me ask you this, is Tom Brady a Hall of Fame QB? Yes. Is it because he played the game the right way or because his play on the field earned him a spot? Ward has not earned a spot in the Hall, but will likely get there anyway because the huge Steeler fan base will demand it. I understand that that is how it works, but it does not mean I have to like it.

All sorts of wrong here.

 

[Godsbrother]

Can anyone show me a shred of evidence that Ward was "the best blocking WR in the game," aside from a collection of Youtube clips showing him blindsiding guys running full-speed in the opposite direction who never see him coming?

I never said Ward was the best blocking WR in the game but he was certainly damn good at it. Other than the opinion of sports writers & football commentators and the respect of his peers what kind of evidence are you looking for?

 

[Wadsworth]

Can anyone show me a shred of evidence that Ward was "the best blocking WR in the game," aside from a collection of Youtube clips showing him blindsiding guys running full-speed in the opposite direction who never see him coming?

I never said Ward was the best blocking WR in the game but he was certainly damn good at it. Other than the opinion of sports writers & football commentators and the respect of his peers what kind of evidence are you looking for?

How many times was he voted one of the dirtiest players in the game by the same peers?

 

[Ghost Rider]

Can anyone show me a shred of evidence that Ward was "the best blocking WR in the game," aside from a collection of Youtube clips showing him blindsiding guys running full-speed in the opposite direction who never see him coming?

I never said Ward was the best blocking WR in the game but he was certainly damn good at it. Other than the opinion of sports writers & football commentators and the respect of his peers what kind of evidence are you looking for?

How many times was he voted one of the dirtiest players in the game by the same peers?

This is where they tell you either that that is a badge of honor or that they he was voted that by bitter defensive players who were pissed at being laid out by a WR.

 

[belljr]

Can anyone show me a shred of evidence that Ward was "the best blocking WR in the game," aside from a collection of Youtube clips showing him blindsiding guys running full-speed in the opposite direction who never see him coming?

I never said Ward was the best blocking WR in the game but he was certainly damn good at it. Other than the opinion of sports writers & football commentators and the respect of his peers what kind of evidence are you looking for?

How many times was he voted one of the dirtiest players in the game by the same peers?

This is where they tell you either that that is a badge of honor or that they he was voted that by bitter defensive players who were pissed at being laid out by a WR.

Ray Lewis is always voted as one of the dirtiest players

 

[Copeman]

Can anyone show me a shred of evidence that Ward was "the best blocking WR in the game," aside from a collection of Youtube clips showing him blindsiding guys running full-speed in the opposite direction who never see him coming?

I never said Ward was the best blocking WR in the game but he was certainly damn good at it. Other than the opinion of sports writers & football commentators and the respect of his peers what kind of evidence are you looking for?

How many times was he voted one of the dirtiest players in the game by the same peers?

His "peers" do not vote for whom goes into the HoF or not. However, the sportswriter(s) he mentions do have a say.

 

[dutch]

Can anyone show me a shred of evidence that Ward was "the best blocking WR in the game," aside from a collection of Youtube clips showing him blindsiding guys running full-speed in the opposite direction who never see him coming?

I never said Ward was the best blocking WR in the game but he was certainly damn good at it. Other than the opinion of sports writers & football commentators and the respect of his peers what kind of evidence are you looking for?

How many times was he voted one of the dirtiest players in the game by the same peers?

This is where they tell you either that that is a badge of honor or that they he was voted that by bitter defensive players who were pissed at being laid out by a WR.

Ray Lewis is always voted as one of the dirtiest players

What does this have to do with Hines Ward being a superhero?

 

[Tau837]

we will find out in 5 years if he is a first ballot HOFrHines retired today

Here's a data point: Ward is less than one year older than Randy Moss. Moss, after being cut by three teams and out of football for a year, got a contract worth $4M if he plays all year. I don't think anyone could imagine Ward commanding similar interest.

Well, in all fairness, Ward was a very physical WR, while Moss avoided contact at all cost, so it can't be a surprise that Ward's body wore out quicker. He's still not a Hall of Famer, but I am just saying.

Yea, that and the fact that Ward was never close as talented or productive as Randy Moss.

True but if I were a rookie WR coming into the NFL and was told at the end of my career I could have the accomplishments and reputation of either Hines Ward or Randy Moss I would choose Ward's career.

Are you taking Ward's money over Moss's money as well? Even if you are, I think that's where most rookie WRs would disagree (if they didn't already disagree on the original premise).

 

[Wadsworth]

Can anyone show me a shred of evidence that Ward was "the best blocking WR in the game," aside from a collection of Youtube clips showing him blindsiding guys running full-speed in the opposite direction who never see him coming?

I never said Ward was the best blocking WR in the game but he was certainly damn good at it. Other than the opinion of sports writers & football commentators and the respect of his peers what kind of evidence are you looking for?

How many times was he voted one of the dirtiest players in the game by the same peers?

His "peers" do not vote for whom goes into the HoF or not. However, the sportswriter(s) he mentions do have a say.

He is the one that brought up the peers.

 

[Wadsworth]

Can anyone show me a shred of evidence that Ward was "the best blocking WR in the game," aside from a collection of Youtube clips showing him blindsiding guys running full-speed in the opposite direction who never see him coming?

I never said Ward was the best blocking WR in the game but he was certainly damn good at it. Other than the opinion of sports writers & football commentators and the respect of his peers what kind of evidence are you looking for?

How many times was he voted one of the dirtiest players in the game by the same peers?

This is where they tell you either that that is a badge of honor or that they he was voted that by bitter defensive players who were pissed at being laid out by a WR.

Ray Lewis is always voted as one of the dirtiest players

Is Ray Lewis a Hall of Famer? If yes, is it because of the respect of his peers, him being a leader and playing the game the right way? Or did he earn his spot in the Hall with his play on the field? All of these Ward arguments only come up when it is someone that should not be there in the first place. If you have to start using the "he was a gamer" logic, then you should know your position is weak to begin with.

 

[Tau837]

True but if I were a rookie WR coming into the NFL and was told at the end of my career I could have the accomplishments and reputation of either Hines Ward or Randy Moss I would choose Ward's career.

Other than team accomplishments(a big but, I know) I would rather the Moss career by a mile.

I am just waiting for the Heath Miller for Hall of Fame threads to start in a couple years.

Best Blocking TE in the league!!!!!!!!

 

[Copeman]

Can anyone show me a shred of evidence that Ward was "the best blocking WR in the game," aside from a collection of Youtube clips showing him blindsiding guys running full-speed in the opposite direction who never see him coming?

I never said Ward was the best blocking WR in the game but he was certainly damn good at it. Other than the opinion of sports writers & football commentators and the respect of his peers what kind of evidence are you looking for?

How many times was he voted one of the dirtiest players in the game by the same peers?

His "peers" do not vote for whom goes into the HoF or not. However, the sportswriter(s) he mentions do have a say.

He is the one that brought up the peers.

Not sure what your motive for stating that the same peers also voted him the dirtiest, was for then.

 

[Tau837]

By every measurable the stat-heads want to throw out there, as it stands right now, he's had one of the 15 or so best statistical careers of any wide receiver to ever play professional football.

No he hasn't. If you believe this, you don't understand how to compare statistical achievements and are probably better served to stick to your intangibles argument, since, while it cannot be proven, neither can it be as easily refuted as this statement you made here.

 

[Tau837]

Michael Jordan famously practiced as hard as he played. He made sure every man on that team, 1-13, ran ragged every day and never took a second off. Teammates hated him for the way he would dog them every single day. He wanted to make sure everyone on that team was giving 100%. Larry Bird used to be the first guy at practice every single day, to get better and to set an example to his teammates.

Allen Iverson was "talkin' 'bout PRACTICE, man. Not the game... PRACTICE."

Hines Ward, upon his retirement inspired LaMarr Woodley to call him the greatest leader he'd ever played with and to say that he "hope I'll be just like him someday." That's a LB talking about a WR.

Randy Moss said "I play when I want to play."

Maybe some of you don't think stuff like this matters because it doesn't show up on a stat sheet, or you think it matters, but not as much as a bunch of extra TD catches. I don't know how many of you have ever played a team sport at a high level, but I'd venture to say not that many if you truly believe that Ward didn't make his whole team better by leading by example. Just because you can't put an exact number on it doesn't mean it's not important.

And with that, I'm done here. Time will tell if he gets in or not, if he does, terrific, he deserves it, IMO, as someone who's watched every snap of his career. If he doesn't, I don't really care much. He delivered titles for us, and no one in Pittsburgh will give a crap if he's in the HOF or not, he'll never have to buy a beer in that town again. Maybe in any town, given how many Steeler fans there are everywhere. I've gotten free beers and free food a number of times just for wearing his jersey, for Christ's sake.

Godspeed, 86.

at invoking Michael Jordan as a comparison to Hines Ward. We're crossing into uncharted territory here...

 

[Copeman]

Michael Jordan famously practiced as hard as he played. He made sure every man on that team, 1-13, ran ragged every day and never took a second off. Teammates hated him for the way he would dog them every single day. He wanted to make sure everyone on that team was giving 100%. Larry Bird used to be the first guy at practice every single day, to get better and to set an example to his teammates.

Allen Iverson was "talkin' 'bout PRACTICE, man. Not the game... PRACTICE."

Hines Ward, upon his retirement inspired LaMarr Woodley to call him the greatest leader he'd ever played with and to say that he "hope I'll be just like him someday." That's a LB talking about a WR.

Randy Moss said "I play when I want to play."

Maybe some of you don't think stuff like this matters because it doesn't show up on a stat sheet, or you think it matters, but not as much as a bunch of extra TD catches. I don't know how many of you have ever played a team sport at a high level, but I'd venture to say not that many if you truly believe that Ward didn't make his whole team better by leading by example. Just because you can't put an exact number on it doesn't mean it's not important.

And with that, I'm done here. Time will tell if he gets in or not, if he does, terrific, he deserves it, IMO, as someone who's watched every snap of his career. If he doesn't, I don't really care much. He delivered titles for us, and no one in Pittsburgh will give a crap if he's in the HOF or not, he'll never have to buy a beer in that town again. Maybe in any town, given how many Steeler fans there are everywhere. I've gotten free beers and free food a number of times just for wearing his jersey, for Christ's sake.

Godspeed, 86.

at invoking Michael Jordan as a comparison to Hines Ward. We're crossing into uncharted territory here...

Apparently, this point he tried to make went over others heads as well. Typical...