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How Badly Did Jesus Suffer? Do You, in Your Personal Life, Suffer More Than The Three Days? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter rockaction
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rockaction
Footballguy
Yeah, it's pretty much trying to clean up the ugliness of any theistic arguments that border on disrespect. To be fair, you're nitpicking.
rockaction
Footballguy
rockaction
Footballguy
I should have done better with the title, it seems. Need to go back to title class.
It should be this: Do you, in your personal life suffer as much emotionally as Jesus did on the cross physically. Because that's the metaphor they're getting after in the Church. Do you feel that?
I don't know. I am an atheist, though agnostic at heart. And I don't agree with the four boxes they teach in school.
It should be this: Do you, in your personal life suffer as much emotionally as Jesus did on the cross physically. Because that's the metaphor they're getting after in the Church. Do you feel that?
I don't know. I am an atheist, though agnostic at heart. And I don't agree with the four boxes they teach in school.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
We take a lot of things on faith. I have an accounting/finance background and have spent most of my career working as a consultant or executive in tech industries. I have the most basic, rudimentary understanding of how our technology works. But it does, so I accept it.
There are a lot of people that have been wounded by or in the church. I didn't grow up as Christian. I came to my relationship with Jesus through a series of relationships in my formative years. When I was a teenager and young adult I acquired a lot of biblical knowledge & along the way became acquainted with suppositional apologetics.
I don't spend too much time on the latter anymore. It's just that it tends to not be fruitful. I have never argued anyone into the faith.
I like what proninja has said in several posts today. It's OK to answer "I don't know." I don't need to know everything about protocol stacks, packets, encryption, network infrastructure - that's not my spehere. I know it works. I understand the Cost of Goods Sold and margins on different product offerings. That's my sphere.
I don't understand everything about the universe, nor do I need. I know God is alive and is at work, all the time. I've experienced His manifest presence in the simple act of singing a song of worship. And I know if you're reading this right now, He cares about you.
That alone is mind boggling. There are more stars in the known universe than there are grains of sand on planet Earth (actually, about six months ago scientists realized there are TEN TIMES as many stars as grains of sand...I digress.) Yet somehow God not only cares about you and loves you and is for you, but He cares at a level that is incomprehensible - He has the exact number of hairs on your head numbered.
If you're a believer and you find these kinds of threads uncomfortable or insulting or outside your comfort zone, let me ask you something. Do you think Jesus is initimidated by science? You think the star-breather, Creator God is fretting a theory is going to prove/disprove if He's real?
The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.
- Psalm 19:1
For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 1:18 ESV
FTR, I appreciate HF or Politician Spock offering their opinions. I think believers should be comfortable having to wrestle with doubt or difficult questions. I think when you approach it honestly, in the end it will make you stronger & more authentic in your faith. Don't accept something just because it's what you grew up with or were told by someone in authority. Check it out for yourself.
There are a lot of people that have been wounded by or in the church. I didn't grow up as Christian. I came to my relationship with Jesus through a series of relationships in my formative years. When I was a teenager and young adult I acquired a lot of biblical knowledge & along the way became acquainted with suppositional apologetics.
I don't spend too much time on the latter anymore. It's just that it tends to not be fruitful. I have never argued anyone into the faith.
I like what proninja has said in several posts today. It's OK to answer "I don't know." I don't need to know everything about protocol stacks, packets, encryption, network infrastructure - that's not my spehere. I know it works. I understand the Cost of Goods Sold and margins on different product offerings. That's my sphere.
I don't understand everything about the universe, nor do I need. I know God is alive and is at work, all the time. I've experienced His manifest presence in the simple act of singing a song of worship. And I know if you're reading this right now, He cares about you.
That alone is mind boggling. There are more stars in the known universe than there are grains of sand on planet Earth (actually, about six months ago scientists realized there are TEN TIMES as many stars as grains of sand...I digress.) Yet somehow God not only cares about you and loves you and is for you, but He cares at a level that is incomprehensible - He has the exact number of hairs on your head numbered.
If you're a believer and you find these kinds of threads uncomfortable or insulting or outside your comfort zone, let me ask you something. Do you think Jesus is initimidated by science? You think the star-breather, Creator God is fretting a theory is going to prove/disprove if He's real?
The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.
- Psalm 19:1
For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 1:18 ESV
FTR, I appreciate HF or Politician Spock offering their opinions. I think believers should be comfortable having to wrestle with doubt or difficult questions. I think when you approach it honestly, in the end it will make you stronger & more authentic in your faith. Don't accept something just because it's what you grew up with or were told by someone in authority. Check it out for yourself.
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rockaction
Footballguy
Yeah, that's essentially what I was asking. I know a lot of people that do, though. They want to off themselves. I'm wondering what makes this happen, And wondering if the slowest suicide other than three days isn't the worst?
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
No.
ASIDE - just getting away from any talk about religion, Jesus, et al, I don't think it's healthy to be a full-time naval gazer. Get outside your self. There are people all around you who are suffering & hurting. I think it's a good thing to trash self-pity & stop over magnifying your own problems. Recognize you can be a force for good and impact others in a positive way. That will actually help you a whole lot more than focusing on your own problems & issues. You could spend a lifetime doing Insight Therapy & never heal your heart. Go spend a weekend serving those less fortunate & you'll make a quantum leap forward to becoming whole.
Back to the Q: Then again, it's not a metaphor. He literally took on all the sins of the world.
You often write without providing context, as if you don't recognize your life experience isn't common to everyone who reads it. What are "the four boxes they teach in school"? Is that referencing making three points & then drawing a conclusion?
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dgreen
Footballguy
Just based on the way some of my friends act, I'd guess they view God as a child curled up in the corner crying when someone says something negative and it's their job to defend Him. Of course when described that way, they'll deny that's how they see God. It's kind of weird to me the mentality that we're supposed to defend God. There are a bunch of Peters out there chopping off ears that God then has to heal.
rockaction
Footballguy
First off, it's a metaphor for physically taking on man's sins. And a physical act. The physical is the metaphor. Even if it really happened,
Secondly, I agree with your premise. Totally. That's why we ask the question. Is navel-gazing better than a superior being, the Son of Man.
Your third point is wonderful. I do often write without context -- I assume people responding are on my level -- it's why I write; to have a discussion. I appreciate your suggestion, and will take it at face value and write with more context. But understanding that weird titles and stuff draws comment; that's where I'm at.
eta* BTW, I loved your posts. They're edifying right now for me.
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shader
Footballguy
I bounce in and out of threads and consistently fail to read the context. I often put my foot in my mouth.
rockaction
Footballguy
This thread was an internet attempt to let non-believers and believers show up, meet, shake hands, and then move on. How's that?
McGarnicle
Footballguy
The thread would go a lot smoother if everyone would just agree that there likely are no deities, the whole Jesus mythology is a complete fairy tale mostly lifted from earlier myths, and once we die, that's all she wrote. Let's all get on the same page kthx
Phase of the Game
Footballguy
Actually for you death will entail you going to a special place surrounded with all of those you have on ignore.
Ditka Butkus
Footballguy
If fact....he took an ### beating, tortured sand died a young man... If fiction, well.....
I was just spoofing this post:
Joking really. I even toned it down from Jesus freaks to Christians before I pushed submit.
rockaction
Footballguy
You think I'm a Jesus freak? Quite the opposite, really.
Man, you really hate him, don't you?
No, you've stated several times in this thread alone you are an atheist.
That isn't what I was saying at all. I was trying to be funny posting the opposite of what shader posted earlier. That's all. And trying to play nice by not saying Jesus freak.
Maybe we should just stop responding to each other. I have a hard time understanding your English and apparently you mine.
Higgs
Footballguy
Great post. I don't have to know the inner workings of God to have faith and benefit from it. Just like I don't need to know the inner workings of a television to enjoy watching a tv show. Someone in here last week was poking fun at my faith, saying it was unprovable. That is hogwash. I can guarantee you that my faith is provable. During my life when my faith has been strongest my happiness and contentment has been highest. It's a fact. I can't prove God exists but I most definitely can prove that my faith works to make me a better, happier person. And that's really all that matters.
Truth is, mankind only knows a smidgen about how the Universe works. You think you know what reality is? Just do a little digging into quantum physics, particularly the double slit experiment. It will humble you right quick. You might even lose some sleep over it.
https://youtu.be/DfPeprQ7oGc
You know I interpret the double slit experiment? The world is what you observe it to be. And faith plays right into this.
rockaction
Footballguy
I'm not arguing with you.
rockaction
Footballguy
Politician Spock
Footballguy
Just to set the record straight, I have no problem with people who believe in religions. Like I said, I did for 30+ years. My wife still believes. Many in my family still believe. The vast majority of my circle of influence still believe. My decision to not believe anymore wasn't easy given my life revolved around the belief so much. For a while I lived a lie, and acted like I still believed even though I didn't. That sucked. Never live a lie.
I do however have a problem with those who proselytize. It's one thing to be free to choose to believe. It's another thing to be dealt a sales job. Religion is NOT harmless. Like I said earlier, I could buy a beach house with all the money I tithed as a church member. So it can easily be financially harmful, and those who are being proselytized to deserve to hear the other side of the story. Consider me the "Yelp" for those wanting an opinion from a previous buyer of what they're being sold.
It can also be emotionally harmful. Just like it's not easy for me to be a non-believer in a circle of believers, it's not easy to be a believer in a circle of non-believers. Someone who was proselytized to and decided to believe may lose friends, family members, maybe even their job, especially if they go all Gung Ho as a new believer. Again, when someone is being proselytized to, I feel compelled to let them know there are two sides to the story. That is why I actively participate in Paddington's proselytizing threads. But where believers are just discussing among other believers, I'm not compelled to share my experience in those threads.
I do however have a problem with those who proselytize. It's one thing to be free to choose to believe. It's another thing to be dealt a sales job. Religion is NOT harmless. Like I said earlier, I could buy a beach house with all the money I tithed as a church member. So it can easily be financially harmful, and those who are being proselytized to deserve to hear the other side of the story. Consider me the "Yelp" for those wanting an opinion from a previous buyer of what they're being sold.
It can also be emotionally harmful. Just like it's not easy for me to be a non-believer in a circle of believers, it's not easy to be a believer in a circle of non-believers. Someone who was proselytized to and decided to believe may lose friends, family members, maybe even their job, especially if they go all Gung Ho as a new believer. Again, when someone is being proselytized to, I feel compelled to let them know there are two sides to the story. That is why I actively participate in Paddington's proselytizing threads. But where believers are just discussing among other believers, I'm not compelled to share my experience in those threads.
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Along with:
1- Teaching us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. (I don't need to know how my tv works!)
2- Indoctrination of children at an early age, brainwashing.
3- War and murder in the name of Religion. (Oh, they're just radical Islamist's!)
4- Interjections of their beliefs in government.
5- Suppression of science and education. (Is it still true 40-50% of the people in the US do not believe in evolution?)
6- Oppression of women.
...................the list is exhausting really.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
True. I was trying to be nice.
Along with:
1- Teaching us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. (I don't need to know how my tv works!)
2- Indoctrination of children at an early age, brainwashing.
3- War and murder in the name of Religion. (Oh, they're just radical Islamist's!)
4- Interjections of their beliefs in government.
5- Suppression of science and education. (Is it still true 40-50% of the people in the US do not believe in evolution?)
6- Oppression of women.
...................the list is exhausting really.
culdeus
Footballguy
Faith and meditation has been shown for centuries to release the same type of hormones people get when they run long distances, have sex, or just simply relax. The Serotonin created helps all sorts of internal dynamics, sleep, energy, metabolism. It's probably the reason people have faith at all.
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Higgs
Footballguy
culdeus
Footballguy
Not really. Serotonin is the worlds oldest neurotransmitter. Nearly every living organism on the planet uses it, and it more than anything else on the planet is what defines a living being from simply plant matter.Seems like a strange thing to be built into our DNA.
Higgs
Footballguy
Right. Why did nature choose to "select" the phenomenon where serotonin is released from faith and meditation? Humans could just as easily have evolved where faith and meditation produced negative results (and thus would have been selected against).
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culdeus
Footballguy
Probably as a selector for aggression, primarily. Having a diverse amount of sensitivity to this in a population would theoretically be a good thing. Faith and meditation are not the only factors involved here, every living thing in some capacity has a ability to tolerate this. Pole to pole migration, for example is driven in large part due to the need to go pick some of the precursors from plants. And so on.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
There's some strong evidence of hippocampus atrophy in "born again" religions/ people who have had a "religious experience." Which seems odd if we're supposed to want those things.
Regardless, neurotheology is rather new. It's interesting to watch the related studies come out.
MarvinTScamper
Footballguy
Politician Spock
Footballguy
Serotonin is released when one feels significant or important. Religion can have such an affect on people. So can belonging to a gang and committing crimes.
Higgs
Footballguy
Human DNA - 3 billion base pairs of ATCG. To grasp the amount of DNA information in one cell, a live reading of that code at a rate of three letters per second would take 31 years, even if reading continued day and night. Seems awfully damn complex for atoms to have arranged like that accidentally.
MarvinTScamper
Footballguy
MarvinTScamper
Footballguy
Doesnt make any points? Tearing down people's motives? Are you just a Polotician Spock alias with less brains?
Politician Spock
Footballguy
I feel the same. But assuming a creator is behind it, nothing about this position means christians know the creator better than muslims do, or any other religion for that matter. In fact, there are more different version of the christian religion than all different versions of all other religions combined. Seems awfully damn complex for christians to be right yet have arranged like that accidentally. It's more likely they're all just wrong.
It's had 5 billion years to reach this point. 31 years isn't even a drop in the bucket. On the other hand God can do it in six days, amiright?
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MarvinTScamper
Footballguy
Thx. I usually am in these threads. It's really, mostly just a simple logic exercise.
MarvinTScamper
Footballguy
Higgs
Footballguy
I have no ####### clue if I'm right. It seems to work for me so I keep doing it.
That's where belief in a supreme being breaks down. Despite the world around us it defies simple logic. For some reason people like you don't hold it to the same evaluation that you do with everything else in your life.
I don't either, and opposite of you, I'm the happiest and most content without it so I'm going to keep not doing it.
I'm not going to try and use that as any sort of evidence tho.
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SameSongNDance
Footballguy
I can understand deism to an extent but I don't understand how people buy into theism at all.
DropKick
Footballguy
I thought I would make a list of the things that Jesus and I have in common. We're both Capricorns, which is cool. We also both have ex-girl friends who were whores, which is far less cool.
Thinking about that ##### has really ticked me off! So I thought I would make a new list... things that Jesus and I don't have in common. He was big on the forgiveness of sins. Me? Not so much. I'm an outright vengeful guy. He would turn the other cheek. i would kick her *** cheeks.
Maybe that list is a dead end too. So, a better list might be things that Jesus and Superman have in common. They both came from the heavens to save mankind. Hard to argue that one... Their neighbors never questioned why their "mothers" were never pregnant. Strange, but true. Yeah, we could make a list here...
Thinking about that ##### has really ticked me off! So I thought I would make a new list... things that Jesus and I don't have in common. He was big on the forgiveness of sins. Me? Not so much. I'm an outright vengeful guy. He would turn the other cheek. i would kick her *** cheeks.
Maybe that list is a dead end too. So, a better list might be things that Jesus and Superman have in common. They both came from the heavens to save mankind. Hard to argue that one... Their neighbors never questioned why their "mothers" were never pregnant. Strange, but true. Yeah, we could make a list here...
joffer
Footballguy
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Yeah, it's amazing. Who can even comprehend a Creator God? And then to take it to the next step, that He is interested in our puny little lives? We're nothing but a whisp, one frame in a three hour movie. That's pretty audacious stuff. Defies logic.
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