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How do you get better at trades? (1 Viewer)

3quinox

Footballguy
This is my third year and I am in a PPR dynasty. I seem to negotiate a trade down to where I feel i don't mind it but then in hindsight am told I could do a lot better or I gave up to much. Everyone also values players differently. My biggest example was trading my 3.5 in the start up draft and one of my two future 2014 first round picks for Fitzgerald. Is there a rule of thumb to do the most even trades?

 
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I don't see that as a bad trade - I gave up the 1.1 and 3.1 in one of my leagues this season for Fitzgerald and was happy with it.

It is hard to have a standard method for trading advice...it all comes down to who else is in your league and the relationships you foster there. Only real way to improve is by improving relationships with guys - sometimes you will be able to talk out a slightly better deal if you have a history with that other owner.

 
Don't include the guy you really want in the initial deal and then get him as a throw in or sound disappointed when you have to "settle" for that guy.

 
Identify (if there are any) the guys who are willing to do 2-1 type deals where you get the better player. Usually, you will win these in the end.

I think the Fitz trade was a good one for you, especially if the future pick isn't a top 2 or 3..............

 
No such thing as overpaying if you get the guy you want. Stop listening to what other people think and trust your own evaluation of players and deals.

 
I don't see that as a bad trade - I gave up the 1.1 and 3.1 in one of my leagues this season for Fitzgerald and was happy with it.

It is hard to have a standard method for trading advice...it all comes down to who else is in your league and the relationships you foster there. Only real way to improve is by improving relationships with guys - sometimes you will be able to talk out a slightly better deal if you have a history with that other owner.
no, he traded the 3.5 pick in a startup, plus a 2014 1st, for Fitz.

Get better at knowing value, and you will get better at trading

 
How to get better at trades? Approach the trade from the perspective of the other party before you make the initial offer. Ask yourself, would I consider this a good trade offer if our positions were reversed? If the answer is no, then tailor the trade offer to better suit what might be viewed as fair from the other side.

Trading is a lot like fishing - if you want to catch something, you need attractive bait.

 
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Identify the football stupid people in your league and rip them off.
Solid approach..............
It really is.

because if you dont do it, the other top teams will, so it works in your favor making your team better and also is a defensive move to try and keep those top teams from getting the best players cheaply from lesser teams.
Oh, I agree.

And despite the claims about shark leagues etc, there are almost always a couple more gullible players in any 12 to 16 team league. Maybe not "stupid", but just not as smart.......

 
No such thing as overpaying if you get the guy you want. Stop listening to what other people think and trust your own evaluation of players and deals.
This. I actually prefer starting the trade with a "blow them away" offer, as opposed to negotiating for every last bit of value I can get. In my experience, it's better to offer as much as you can immediately, rather than saving up a piece to throw on to the trade in later negotiations. I think this is better, because I think the more time you give an owner to contemplate the trade the less likely they are to do it.

Try to ask yourself this question, "Am I going to let so-and-so-bit-player kill this deal?" Otherwise you might look back and think, "Damn I could have had Fitzgerald if only I was willing to part with my future 2nd round pick who ended up being Stephen Hill".

Also, this has been widely discussed here, but always package talent for the stud. Nine out of ten times the guy getting the best player overall wins those trades.

 
I try to boil trades down to rookie draft picks to ensure the right value is being exchanged.
Different owners, hell different leagues, value rookie drafts picks differently. And that value also fluctuates wildly depending on the time of year and the perceived strength of particular draft classes. So I'm not seeing how this works at all.

 
How to get better at trades? Approach the trade from the perspective of the other party before you make the initial offer. Ask yourself, would I consider this a good trade offer if our positions were reversed? If the answer is no, then tailor the trade offer to better suit what you might view as fair from the other side.

Trading is a lot like fishing - if you want to catch something, you need some attractive bait on your hook.
I imagine I am part of a minority, but I subscribe to this as well. I will probably never be a "good" trader because (even though the other owner and I will not rate all players equally), I honestly try to make a trade that I (with my ratings) believe is a win-win trade for both teams.

I do not want to fleece the other owner and when I have been presented with an opportunity to do so, I have instead used it as an opportunity to educate the other and then have offered a counter-offer that is more in keeping with the value of his player(s). I'd rather have a friend and a stronger opponent in the future (why play of you don't want it to be challenging is my thinking) than to pat myself on the back for taking advantage of someone.

In regards to the original post, I concur with those who say to do your own research, reach you own conclusions on value and proceed. I don't think your trade for Fitzgerald was bad. I might not have made it, but I can't fault you for it.

 
Identify the football stupid people in your league and rip them off.
I thought you didn't play dynasty?
I don't and its kind of creepy you know that. Regardless, people trade plenty in redraft leagues were similar trade/negotiation tactics are used. If you have played a few years with the same group typically patterns show up and everyone knows who to go to in order to get that huge "I'll give you my 3 best bench players for your best starter....ya man, you really need more depth trade." Then that poor last place guy has an even worse team while the team trading depth dominates.

I no longer play in leagues where trading is allowed primarily because it then becomes about who can rip off the 2-3 idiots in the league off first instead of just drafting well and picking up solid FA's throughout the year. Cool story, I know.

 
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Identify the football stupid people in your league and rip them off.
I thought you didn't play dynasty?
I don't and its kind of creepy you know that. Regardless, people trade plenty in redraft leagues were similar trade/negotiation tactics are used. I no longer play in leagues where trading is allowed primarily because it then becomes about who can rip off the 2-3 idiots in the league off first instead of just drafting well and picking up solid FA's throughout the year.
You said it pretty recently. I have a good memory. Oops?

 
This is my third year and I am in a PPR dynasty. I seem to negotiate a trade down to where I feel i don't mind it but then in hindsight am told I could do a lot better or I gave up to much. Everyone also values players differently. My biggest example was trading my 3.5 in the start up draft and one of my two future 2014 first round picks for Fitzgerald. Is there a rule of thumb to do the most even trades?
You did the right thing by joining a dynasty league. Has owning a dynasty team helped you in redraft? By owning a dynasty team you should improve your knowledge of the NFL and get to know the tendancies of your league mates. Look back on this thread three years from now and see how far you have come.

 
All good answers, the only thing i would add is try to find the under valued players and make an offer between their perceived value and your value. If you get a player you like at a value you think is fair or good for you and others think you got ripped off, that might be a good thing.

ask owners if they'd be interested in improving a position for a position they are strong in. Then get to specific players.

In dynasty, identify rebuilding teams, then offer picks for proven talent. This works far more than it doesn't.

 
I try to boil trades down to rookie draft picks to ensure the right value is being exchanged.
Different owners, hell different leagues, value rookie drafts picks differently. And that value also fluctuates wildly depending on the time of year and the perceived strength of particular draft classes. So I'm not seeing how this works at all.
I do the same thing he does actually. But it is my own personal values, not what others think.

It's just an approach to keep from overpaying.

And yes, the value of rookie picks is different from league to league, so adjust accordingly.

Also, if you want to make your team better and better through trades, you don't need to rip people off to do it. If you get good at knowing the values of players, and which players actually have a decent chance to GAIN value, then a few smaller scale trades when added up and looked at later can look like one HUGE great deal for you.

 
Don't lowball to the point where you won't get a response. If someone offers me Mark Sanchez for Aaron Rodgers and says "make a counter if you don't like the offer, I generally won't respond."

Identify players you like more than the perceived value level and go get them with players you have that you like less than their perceived value. If you think LeVeon Bell is the next big thing, use someone like Matt Forte to go get him. Who cares what others think - most people are playing off a list of what some other guy made up.

Don't trade just to trade. If someone keeps trying to bleed you dry, just call it off. Make a stand with your final offer and don't budge from it if you feel it's fair.

 
I don't see that as a bad trade - I gave up the 1.1 and 3.1 in one of my leagues this season for Fitzgerald and was happy with it.

It is hard to have a standard method for trading advice...it all comes down to who else is in your league and the relationships you foster there. Only real way to improve is by improving relationships with guys - sometimes you will be able to talk out a slightly better deal if you have a history with that other owner.
no, he traded the 3.5 pick in a startup, plus a 2014 1st, for Fitz.

Get better at knowing value, and you will get better at trading
Eww. Ok, then that was a bad trade, yes. I can't believe Fitz was not there at 3.5 as it was. He was taken at 3.10 in a startup that I was in earlier this offseason. Even if he was gone, there should have been more good WRs at that position to take.

Of course, if you were targeting him heavily and think he will perform like a first or 2nd round start-up WR, then you will have won this trade in the end.

 
Identify the football stupid people in your league and rip them off.
I thought you didn't play dynasty?
I don't and its kind of creepy you know that. Regardless, people trade plenty in redraft leagues were similar trade/negotiation tactics are used. If you have played a few years with the same group typically patterns show up and everyone knows who to go to in order to get that huge "I'll give you my 3 best bench players for your best starter....ya man, you really need more depth trade." Then that poor last place guy has an even worse team while the team trading depth dominates.

I no longer play in leagues where trading is allowed primarily because it then becomes about who can rip off the 2-3 idiots in the league off first instead of just drafting well and picking up solid FA's throughout the year. Cool story, I know.
Anyone who has even moderately kept up on the Shark pool knows that you don't play dynasty and that you unrealistically overvalue Seahawk players. No e-stalking needed to know that.

 
You get better at trades when you stop over-valuing your players just because you own them. It's a psychology thing.

 
Identify (if there are any) the guys who are willing to do 2-1 type deals where you get the better player. Usually, you will win these in the end.

I think the Fitz trade was a good one for you, especially if the future pick isn't a top 2 or 3..............
Identify which teams are weak where you have depth
I like a combination of the above whenever possible.

Example: A 2RB league where my RB3 is as good as or better than another guy's RB2 (and I like my RB4 as well). But he has an elite WR, or two stud WR's, and I could use one of them. I'll try to send my RB3 or 4 + my WR 2 or 3 asking for one of his elite or stud WR's. That way my starting lineup improves, and my bench isn't hit that much since I still have a RB sitting there I am comfortable with. His starting lineup may even improve, or seem to improve in his eyes, as the RB upgrade balances out the step down at WR.

Of course, it helps if I'm higher on the WR I'm targeting than he is, or lower on the RB I'm offering, etc...but that's a general blueprint I try to follow.

 
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A good buddy often just sends out as many outlandish trade offers to beat everyone down, then a few weeks later he's sent so many lopsided trades that some of the lesser lopsided trades start looking like a deal compared to the earlier disasters.

Eventually some ###### accepts one of these trades and gets robbed blind and pisses the entire league off.

One of the two reasons I stopped playing.

 
Identify the football stupid people in your league and rip them off.
If you must use this approach, I notice the "3rd round kickback" seems to work sometimes in dynasty trades.

For example

Percy Harvin, 2014 3rd

for

Greg Little, Pierre Thomas, Matt Schaub, and Michael Floyd

Like you're giving him sooo much that he'll have to throw back that 3rd rounder just to even the scales. I've noticed that a few times in the dyntasy trade thread.

 
Others have offered better techniques advice than I can give, but

Trading is that the one thing in fantasy where you have to involve people and no approach always works with each guy in your league. Learn which ones want to talk it out, learn which one want to see a close to a final offer the first time, learn which one overvalue draft picks, which one loads up veterans, which is slow about answering, which one is just odd, etc. Once learn your league mates trading becomes easier and better.

 
Identify the football stupid people in your league and rip them off.
If you must use this approach, I notice the "3rd round kickback" seems to work sometimes in dynasty trades.

For example

Percy Harvin, 2014 3rd

for

Greg Little, Pierre Thomas, Matt Schaub, and Michael Floyd

Like you're giving him sooo much that he'll have to throw back that 3rd rounder just to even the scales. I've noticed that a few times in the dyntasy trade thread.
I never do this but a similar approach is to backload the deal with the other guy's scrubs. Psychology that he's getting some value out of the guys he should have dropped last year.

 
Last year, I traded away 1.02 rookie pick for MJD and Maclin and everyone took a crap on the other guy, going so far as to tell me I should have at least included someone like Bush to balance the trade. Try trading MJD and Maclin for Martin now, which was the guy he got with 1.02.

 
3quinox said:
This is my third year and I am in a PPR dynasty. I seem to negotiate a trade down to where I feel i don't mind it but then in hindsight am told I could do a lot better or I gave up to much. Everyone also values players differently. My biggest example was trading my 3.5 in the start up draft and one of my two future 2014 first round picks for Fitzgerald. Is there a rule of thumb to do the most even trades?
FWIW, Fitzgerald went 3.11 in my start up. That's probably why people think you overpaid - he's valued as a 3rd round start up pick.

 
I think the OP's deal is solid. I get it that in a start-up dynasty, at age 30 almost and considering last year, a lot of people are going to combine those two things with the fact that a lot of start-ups burn a lot of early picks on RBs and they will draw the conclusion that the deal wasn't great for the OP but, at the end of the day, Fitz is still Fitz and without being specific, I can say with a great deal of confidence that during the next 4-5 seasons, Fitz will easily outproduce a solid handful of the players people will take before they take him in these types of drafts.

So, I wouldn't knock the trade.

To get better at trading: trade more and don't try to kill the other owner. Find something that you think works well for both teams involved and over the long run you won't find people shying away from doing business with you. You will win some, you will lose some. But you will improve your team overall.

An old line that sticks with me that I picked up years ago is "the best trades are the ones where both sides come away from it thinking that they lost something to get what they wanted." That is generally a solid indicator that it was a solid trade.

 
(1) Converse with your leaguemates. NFL, fantasy, gardening, golf, whatever. Develop a rapport that shows that you are a good guy. This will build trust, and at times, you might get some info on how they value a particular player(s) or even have a discussion about a trade.

(2) Figure out how other teams value players. Do they use rankings? Dynasty start ups ADP? Last year's numbers? The Shark Pool? This will allow you to identify and set value on both sides of the equation. It will also give you an idea of which guys are untouchable.

(3) Figure out their goals/vision (win now, balance, young talent, build through draft etc.) and craft offers that take those goals into account. State what you believe as their goal/vision in the trade offer to make sure you are correct. If you are wrong and get corrected, well now you know, and that is valuable info.

(4) Be polite and respectful - Don't be a jerk. Sometimes, you will get it wrong, the other owner will have an unreasonable valuation, or a trade offer will be dismissed out of hand because he's worried about getting fleeced . Don't pester the other guy for an explanation, get argumentative, or demand a counter offer. Just let it go and tell the other guy thanks, but it isn't going to work out.

(5) Remember that it is just a game.

 
Couple of things I didn't notice mentioned in skimming.

1) Talk to others in the league to establish what market value is. In your example, you could have talked to a few other teams and ask what they'd give you for a 3rd and your future 1st.

2) Just because people say you should have gotten more doesn't mean you should have gotten more. Sometimes you should have, yes. Other times, people believe "someone else" should have given you more. But that doesn't mean anyone actually would have given you more. I've had this said to me after making a trade: "I can't believe you got Player X for that! You robbed him." "Mine was the best offer he got. I know he offered Player X to you too, why didn't you give him more then?" "Oh, because I don't think Player X is worth that much." :confused:

People frequently fail to take actual team needs and surpluses into account when figuring out what some other team's player should be wort in trade. They just think about his value as expressed by where he was/would be drafted.

3) As far as actually making more trades, I find it's helpful to approach an owner and instead of just making him an offer, I ask him what areas of his team he's looking to improve. You'll be able to craft your offers to meet his perceived needs. And I think it also helps put someone in a mindset that you're willing to seek something win-win and not just looking to rob them.

 
The guys that I see who come out on the poor end of trades consistently are the ones that try to force it. Ask yourself, "Are you trading because you should or because it is fun?"...if you answer the latter, you are doomed before you even go in. Personally, I hate to trade, because it often means I did a poor job drafting (injuries withstanding) and I never look at is as "fun". It is a business transaction to me, no different than going to the bank or paying a bill. Every week I win or lose, and that is enough fun for me.

 
Send fair offers or emails first.

Be polite and answer all trade offers even if it is horrible. Just reply with a no thanks.

Try to do trades that help both teams. Don't offer the guy Russell Wilson in the deal and expect full value if the team already has Rodgers and Cam.

Find out what the other team likes on your team. Maybe you don't offer up Cobb because the other team has Calvin, Green, and Marshall. Maybe the guy loves the Packers and wants Cobb even if he doesn't need him.

 
Obviously you'll want to figure out whether you're in "win now" or "rebuild" mode.... or somewhere inbetween. That'll determine how much you could potentially overpay. I've slightly overpaid for studs (that may have short contracts or aging) for youth in "win now" mode. I've given up on aging (but still solid) talent in order to add a bevy of youngsters with upside and/or picks.

Identify where you're strongest and where you're weakest, then try scanning the league's rosters for a team that's your polar opposite in terms of strengths/weaknesses (or best match). That'll provide you with at least an open door.

Not sure if this will make you "better", but it'll certainly make things easier... at least that's what I've found in my experiences.

 
The guys that I see who come out on the poor end of trades consistently are the ones that try to force it. Ask yourself, "Are you trading because you should or because it is fun?"...if you answer the latter, you are doomed before you even go in. Personally, I hate to trade, because it often means I did a poor job drafting (injuries withstanding) and I never look at is as "fun". It is a business transaction to me, no different than going to the bank or paying a bill. Every week I win or lose, and that is enough fun for me.
Curious, is this a dynasty answer? I understand thinking of trades as a business transaction rather than as "fun", but in dynasty trades fulfill a huge range of needs. It is not necessarily because you did a poor job drafting. Which is why this sounds like a redraft comment to me.

 
First thing is keep constant communication with all owners. More u communicate with them more you will find out what they need. In todays world there are so many ways to do this instead of the past when it was phone or face to face.

Next know your strengths and weakness of all rosters in league. If you want to make fair trades you need to know what each owner might need.

If you really love a player go after him and even if you over pay you got your player. Too many times owners second guess or get cute in trading and miss value.

 

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