With those receivers even Ryan Leaf might have a chance to score.
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How long until someone cheap shots Brady if they keep running up score (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter SwampDawg
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destro
Footballguy
Don't forget the coaching factor. What do you think Belicheck would do with a guy like Manning? Does anyone really think Manning couldn't do what Brady is doing this year? It would be outrageous. In his record breaking year, Manning put up similar numbers with a coach who can't match Belicheck and company, and does not like to run up the score as much as the Pats have so many times this year.Well, now that Manning has finally had a competent defense in the playoffs, I think we can put the debate over who is better between Manning and Brady to rest.Well, now that the receving corps are similar skill wise I think we can put the debate over who is better between Manning and Brady to rest.
PatsWillWin
Footballguy
Both quarterbacks could put up insane numbers with an elite surrounding cast.Just not sure that both of them could be as successful with a sub-par cast as the other one could...err...has been.Don't forget the coaching factor. What do you think Belicheck would do with a guy like Manning? Does anyone really think Manning couldn't do what Brady is doing this year? It would be outrageous. In his record breaking year, Manning put up similar numbers with a coach who can't match Belicheck and company, and does not like to run up the score as much as the Pats have so many times this year.Well, now that Manning has finally had a competent defense in the playoffs, I think we can put the debate over who is better between Manning and Brady to rest.Well, now that the receving corps are similar skill wise I think we can put the debate over who is better between Manning and Brady to rest.
That was kind of my point, and the last few games have illustrated the point.
destro
Footballguy
I don't think his supporting cast has been that bad at all. He's definitely had a great defense every year, fantastic OLs, and they had at least a respectable running game most years. Just because he hasn't had an elite WR doesn't mean they've been terrible. Did it hurt his chance at huge numbers? Sure. But let's not pretend like it was just Brady vs 11 every week. He landed in an amazing situation. Also: I think I'd take Moss, Stallworth, and Welker over any 3 the Colts have had over the years. And those are all guys who've done it without Brady.Both quarterbacks could put up insane numbers with an elite surrounding cast.Just not sure that both of them could be as successful with a sub-par cast as the other one could...err...has been.Don't forget the coaching factor. What do you think Belicheck would do with a guy like Manning? Does anyone really think Manning couldn't do what Brady is doing this year? It would be outrageous. In his record breaking year, Manning put up similar numbers with a coach who can't match Belicheck and company, and does not like to run up the score as much as the Pats have so many times this year.Well, now that Manning has finally had a competent defense in the playoffs, I think we can put the debate over who is better between Manning and Brady to rest.Well, now that the receving corps are similar skill wise I think we can put the debate over who is better between Manning and Brady to rest.
There's no doubt Brady isn't the whole formula to the Pats' equation. However, I don't think you can deny that the Pats offense under Brady has NEVER looked as inept as Indy's has the last few weeks, and Manning still has a better receiving corp. right now than Brady ever had prior to this year.
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KarmaPolice
Footballguy
I think it's kinda funny, but then again I'm a Pats fan.
I would buy it if they said they didn't want the team to cool down by yanking starters in the 3rd Q. On the same lines, there's really no point to keep Brady in the game just to hand the ball off for some 3 and outs if that's not what they usually call during the course of the game. That would be the same as putting him on the bench.
That said, even I was scratching my head and let out a groan when they didn't kick the field goal when they were that close. They are basically giving the finger to the league and the media for all of the #### they took at the start of the season and are still taking b/c of the cheating scandal, and it could very well bite them in the ### down the road.
IMO if somebody took an intentional cheap shot at Brady/Moss, etc.. with the intent to put them out of commision, that is a hell of a lot worse then them being in the game in the 3rd Q of a blowout.
I would buy it if they said they didn't want the team to cool down by yanking starters in the 3rd Q. On the same lines, there's really no point to keep Brady in the game just to hand the ball off for some 3 and outs if that's not what they usually call during the course of the game. That would be the same as putting him on the bench.
That said, even I was scratching my head and let out a groan when they didn't kick the field goal when they were that close. They are basically giving the finger to the league and the media for all of the #### they took at the start of the season and are still taking b/c of the cheating scandal, and it could very well bite them in the ### down the road.
IMO if somebody took an intentional cheap shot at Brady/Moss, etc.. with the intent to put them out of commision, that is a hell of a lot worse then them being in the game in the 3rd Q of a blowout.
Neofight
Footballguy
On which side of this argument do you fall, GregR?
Das Boot
Footballguy
There's isn't any official definition, and as you can see from all the threads and posts, a lot of people don't think there's any point where it becomes classless to continue trying to score TDs.I think it's quite clear there becomes a point where continuing trying to score shows a lack of class. That point will vary for everyone, but in a blowout there's always a point where it becomes clear the game has been decided.twitch said:I truly dont know. Ive been around sports for 30 someodd years, and have seen many a blowout. I just didnt know the definition leaked into midway thru the 3rd quarter of professional games. And Im not aiming at sarcasm here. This is why even arguing about running it up sometimes just gets lost in translation. Where can I find the official definition? And Im not even for a second denying that NE isnt scoring at will on teams. But Im not walking down the rough and rugged 'running up the score' road in the 3rd quarter. Im really not.So there's no way it could ever be possible to be running the score up in the 3rd Q?What's the official time into the 4th Q where it becomes possible to label a coach/team as running up the score?twitch said:
I think it would be completely arbitrary to say this point can't be in the 3rd Q - what's the difference between 1 min left in the 3rd Q and one min into the 4th Q?
As an example, I'd say a team ahead 63-3 in the 3rd would be running it up by continuing to throw deep passes and going for the endzone.
The classy thing to do at that point, as well as the pragmatic choice, is to get your key starters out so they don't get injured, and play the remainder of the game conservatively - i.e. a lot more runs than passes, and passes to get 1st downs, not to get TDs. And kick FGs where appropriate instead of going for TDs.
What's going to be amusing down the road (this year, next year, any year for quite a while) is when these teams that NE is going out of their way to run the score up on this year will return the favor when they get the chance.
Although probably many of them will be classy enough to not run the score up on NE even when they have the opportunity.
A concept that will no doubt be lost on all the dolts cheering NE's decisions this year.
Footballg
Footballguy
you've either got a very short memory, or you just fell off the bandwagon yesterday.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Obviously they have a chip on their shoulder, that really isn't up for debate.
Are people giving them respect by constantly bringing up the cheating thing? People still bring up that there should be an * next to this season b/c of a tape that was taken from them in the 1st quarter of the 1st game. (which they already got punished for). Obviously they are out to prove that they do just fine and that the cheating was blown out of proportion. Like I said, IMO a bit of this is a big F-you to everybody that disrepected them and was calling for BB's head after week 1.
Are people giving them respect by constantly bringing up the cheating thing? People still bring up that there should be an * next to this season b/c of a tape that was taken from them in the 1st quarter of the 1st game. (which they already got punished for). Obviously they are out to prove that they do just fine and that the cheating was blown out of proportion. Like I said, IMO a bit of this is a big F-you to everybody that disrepected them and was calling for BB's head after week 1.
GregR_2
Footballguy
If what you're wanting to know is actually "on which side of the argument does GregR fall?", I think it's undebatable that the Pats have run up the score at least once or twice.If, however, what you really wanted to know is, "on which side of this argument does the writer of that definition fall?" then the answer is the definition is from the Wikipedia article which I'm sure predates the 2007 NFL season, so the definition has nothing at all to do with the Patriots or being on any sides.
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Neofight
Footballguy
My question was fairly clear, I believe, and Wiki is a wonderful resource; we're in agreement there. But, seeing as this is professional football and there is obviously some grey area on this issue, let's look at specific examples. Do you have any?
Footballg
Footballguy
I'll bet you're the kind of guy that finds a lot of things obvious.
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
i will be satisfied with the fg unit ####### up when it matters, because they never get into the game.
nxmehta
Footballguy
Actually, the whole reason that there are so many posts on this is that it isn't clear at all what amounts to a lack of class. But, for the moment, let's assume that the Pats are being completely classless. How does the game of football reward you for class? Is it written somewhere in the NFL rules that if you're "classy" then you get home field advantage, a higher salary cap, more players, higher draft picks, etc.? These players are getting paid millions and millions of dollars to win. There are countless football reasons for them to keep scoring (contract incentives, records which will lead to endorsements, psychological advantages in the future, not to mention ensuring a victory). They have zero football incentive to start taking a knee in the third quarter to try and be "classy".
Aha! Now you're on to something. People need to separate these two issues- they are not the same. Being classy and being pragmatic have different rewards in football. There are sound football reasons why you should take your starters out. I think this is much more worthwhile debate- are the Pats making the right football decision in keeping their starters in with a 42-10 lead? I would say probably not.
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Is the irony lost on anybody else that in a few weeks we'll be discussing the merits of resting players for weeks 16 and 17, and can they just flick a switch and turn it back on? Or, should they play to stay fresh and in synch. Then we have others arguing now that NE should turn it on week to week.twitch said:Im saying does a team need to stop playing aggressive football in the 3rd quarter of games? no matter the score? these games last 60 minutes. Not 45. Im not calling it anything one way or the other really. Everyone seems to have their own definition of what running up the score is. But Id atleast like to truly understand the guidelines. Because Ive gotta tell you. Im miffed at all the attention when Brady basically sits an entire quarter.So you're saying that what the Patriots are doing is not "running up the score"?twitch said:Well, now that Manning has finally had a competent defense in the playoffs, I think we can put the debate over who is better between Manning and Brady to rest.Well, now that the receving corps are similar skill wise I think we can put the debate over who is better between Manning and Brady to rest.
Play hard when you're on the field. If both sides do it, it's not possible to run up the score.
Dolts? You're whining about NE runnign it up, but advocate others returninng the favor at a time that's convenient? And calling others dolts?There's isn't any official definition, and as you can see from all the threads and posts, a lot of people don't think there's any point where it becomes classless to continue trying to score TDs.I think it's quite clear there becomes a point where continuing trying to score shows a lack of class. That point will vary for everyone, but in a blowout there's always a point where it becomes clear the game has been decided.twitch said:I truly dont know. Ive been around sports for 30 someodd years, and have seen many a blowout. I just didnt know the definition leaked into midway thru the 3rd quarter of professional games. And Im not aiming at sarcasm here. This is why even arguing about running it up sometimes just gets lost in translation. Where can I find the official definition? And Im not even for a second denying that NE isnt scoring at will on teams. But Im not walking down the rough and rugged 'running up the score' road in the 3rd quarter. Im really not.So there's no way it could ever be possible to be running the score up in the 3rd Q?What's the official time into the 4th Q where it becomes possible to label a coach/team as running up the score?twitch said:
I think it would be completely arbitrary to say this point can't be in the 3rd Q - what's the difference between 1 min left in the 3rd Q and one min into the 4th Q?
As an example, I'd say a team ahead 63-3 in the 3rd would be running it up by continuing to throw deep passes and going for the endzone.
The classy thing to do at that point, as well as the pragmatic choice, is to get your key starters out so they don't get injured, and play the remainder of the game conservatively - i.e. a lot more runs than passes, and passes to get 1st downs, not to get TDs. And kick FGs where appropriate instead of going for TDs.
What's going to be amusing down the road (this year, next year, any year for quite a while) is when these teams that NE is going out of their way to run the score up on this year will return the favor when they get the chance.
Although probably many of them will be classy enough to not run the score up on NE even when they have the opportunity.
A concept that will no doubt be lost on all the dolts cheering NE's decisions this year.
I particularly like this argument. Let me rephrase it. Instead of getting the ball to players in space, where they're likely to be tackled by one to two players, NE should tell their opponents to line up in a goalline formation, and run right up th egut, thereby increasing the risk to their RB as he's piled on by 8 guys, and maybe an Olineman or two rolled up on. Is that what you're looking for? There is no rule being broken, There is nothing happening but a football game. O vs. D. Ne is playing to get better. Stop them if you dont' like it.
Spartans Rule
Footballguy
I'm not sure how pragmatic it is for a team that has battled RB injuries all year and has its #2 RB on IR to be slamming guys into the pile repeatedly.But really, what's smart for the Patriots to do in the long run has no place in a discussion of what's class and what isn't. That's their call.
radiohead417
Footballguy
These types of posts really bother me. It's the 'get a life' defense, which is basically saying 'I can't make my point, so I'm instead going to question your time management. I lose, but I'm going to make myself feel better about it.'You can make plenty of arguments as to why it is or isn't OK to run up the score, and whether or not it could endanger Brady, Moss, or any other player on the Pats team. Enjoy your time telling your kids about how you really shut up somebody on a fantasy message board.
[sarcasm] Ellis Hobbs should really watch out for his knees too. He clearly shouldn't have been on the field at that point in the game during the 4th quarter fumble . On top of that he should have at least just ran out of bounds or took a knee when he recovered that fumble in the 4th quarter.[/sarcasm]
Bonginator
Footballguy
I find it funny that all the people calling the Pats "classless" and all that other crap are the first ones to talk about taking out Brady's knees
Like everyone says, if you don't like what the offense is doing STOP THEM!
When did football become all about "class" anyways? Its a brutal freaking sport, not a day at the art musuem
Like everyone says, if you don't like what the offense is doing STOP THEM!
When did football become all about "class" anyways? Its a brutal freaking sport, not a day at the art musuem
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Road Warriors
Footballguy
A while back I recall someone speculating that the Patriots are running it up with a specific goal in mind. They are not just beating the team on the field with them, but their setting the table for the rest of the league. They want to set doubt in their opponents minds, whic gives them an advantage before they even take the field.
I saw some evidence of this theory at work a few weeks back, in an interview in my local ( Austin TX ) paper with Ronde Barber.
From an article ( byline, Washington Post )
"It's ridiculous. What they're doing is amazing," Tampa Bay Pro Bowl cornerback Rhonde Barber said. "I was joking with a buddy of mine, and I was like, who really wants to be a Super Bowl contender this year, so you can get beat 45-nothing?"
The dominating wins the Pats are putting up have set doubt in the minds of their opponents. Teams come into those games thinking "Lets keep it close" In many cases, they're beaten before they start the game.
Running it up, by most standards? Sure.
Does it serve a purpose? Certainly looks like it to me.
Winning classy is a wonderful subject for message boards. Winning is the objective of an NFL team. This team focuses on the latter.
I saw some evidence of this theory at work a few weeks back, in an interview in my local ( Austin TX ) paper with Ronde Barber.
From an article ( byline, Washington Post )
"It's ridiculous. What they're doing is amazing," Tampa Bay Pro Bowl cornerback Rhonde Barber said. "I was joking with a buddy of mine, and I was like, who really wants to be a Super Bowl contender this year, so you can get beat 45-nothing?"
The dominating wins the Pats are putting up have set doubt in the minds of their opponents. Teams come into those games thinking "Lets keep it close" In many cases, they're beaten before they start the game.
Running it up, by most standards? Sure.
Does it serve a purpose? Certainly looks like it to me.
Winning classy is a wonderful subject for message boards. Winning is the objective of an NFL team. This team focuses on the latter.
Power Monster
The Midnight Stalker
As a fan of the Bears- I would hate to see this happen to any player especially after what happened to Jim McMahon when they played Green Bay and Charles Martin just dumped him and all but ruined his shoulder. I will say this- when NE is down and they do not have the caliber players that they have now- they are going to get theirs....
Do you mean like the years we went 1-5 and 2-16, or most recently 2000 when they were 5-12. OF course they wont stay on top forever. Nobody does. But, while they're there they have the right to do it the way they want.
Power Monster
The Midnight Stalker
Very cool. When you were 2-16 and 5-12 did teams you lost to run up the score like mad?
Typically, yes. When you're 1-15 or near it, not many teams have trouble stopping you, or scoring on you. It's football. The score doesn't have to be close. Some days you're overmatched.
Road Warriors
Footballguy
Can't say I recall. Those were pretty terrible teams. The game was in the "L" column more often that not before halftime. As a football fan, I recognized that the other team was better. I do know that I didn't spend all day whining about it.
Ok. I hear you on all this and there are lots of valid points on this theme. Getting busted for cheating is a big deal. It was a big deal when Shawne Merriman and Jason Taylor were battling for Defensive Player of The Year. It's a big deal now. But it's not the end of the world. That's annoying. And it's just as annoying to sweep it under the rug and act like nothing happened.
But we've hit the limit.
Closing this and you can start an official "Patriots Deserve An Asterisk" thread. Put all the New England threads there.
J
But we've hit the limit.
Closing this and you can start an official "Patriots Deserve An Asterisk" thread. Put all the New England threads there.
J
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