How Many QBs Out There Would The Patriots Rather Have For This Playoff Run? (1 Viewer)

[Joe Bryant]

Make sure to chime in here too. 

https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/topic/783108-prediction-time-no-6-titans-vs-no-3-patriots-45/

 

[TheWinz]

Lamar is the only one I would consider, with little to no time to digest the playbook.  Screw the passing game.  

 

[Dr. Octopus]

That's me. I'm never surprised when I'm in the minority on things anymore but this one sort of surprised me with people thinking any new QB could come in and better in 6 days than Brady. It's why I asked though. 

Anyone that thinks that doesn’t know football. I’m not trying to come across as some superior football mind (I’m not) but that stance is ludicrous. When I first read this thread I thought we were assuming another playoff teams QB would have “magically” been with the Pats all season. If I read the way your follow up portrayed it there’s no question that you would have to stick with Brady and hope he has some magic left.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I voted 4-15, but that was under the assumption that the new QB magically knew the playbook and had experience with the other offensive players.  If we're talking about bringing in a new guy and starting him six days later, I would agree with you that the number is zero.

Yes. I'm saying the new guy would have to learn the playbook starting today. 

With that said, a ton of people think lots of QBs would be better than Brady there. Which I don't agree with. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

Anyone that thinks that doesn’t know football. I’m not trying to come across as some superior football mind (I’m not) but that stance is ludicrous. When I first read this thread I thought we were assuming another playoff teams QB would have “magically” been with the Pats all season. If I read the way your follow up portrayed it there’s no question that you would have to stick with Brady and hope he has some magic left.

It's interesting to me too. I've got some friends who I very much respect their football knowledge and they think a new guy like Lamar Jackson or Patrick Mahomes plus several more would be better learning the playbook is 6 days. I think it's a fascinating discussion. 

 

[Dr. Octopus]

It's interesting to me too. I've got some friends who I very much respect their football knowledge and they think a new guy like Lamar Jackson or Patrick Mahomes plus several more would be better learning the playbook is 6 days. I think it's a fascinating discussion. 

I suppose those people could be giving major credit to Belichick/McDaniels, as well, meaning that they have faith in their ability to simplify the system enough and just allow a guy like Mahomes or Jackson to go out and do their thing on Sunday.

 The problem is if we’re looking at this from Belichick’s perspective he would have more faith in believing he can win with what he has.

Honestly even if Brady was declared OUT for next week today, the Patriots would be better off going with Stidham than some outside QB that has to learn the system in five days.

 

[Anarchy99]

It's interesting to me too. I've got some friends who I very much respect their football knowledge and they think a new guy like Lamar Jackson or Patrick Mahomes plus several more would be better learning the playbook is 6 days. I think it's a fascinating discussion. 

I think way too many people are pinning this on Brady. Brady or anyone else can't heal the sick and injured (including himself). Brady or anyone else can't wave a magic wand and get his receivers open . . . or stop the constant revolving door at WR in NE. Brady or anyone else can't get Gronk to un-retire.

Brady or anyone can't help his defense give up 20 quick completions on slant routes yesterday. Brady or anyone else can't prevent his receivers from dropping a ton of passes in critical moments. Brady or anyone else can't prevent his team from committing inopportune penalties or the refs making poor calls (yes, I know NE has benefitted from plenty of calls over the years.) Brady or anyone else can't be responsible for complete mismanagement of their timeouts at the end of both halves yesterday.

Yes, Brady is not the guy he used to be. He's probably average but can be good in spots. But he can't carry the team with the guys he has around him. He had one horrible pass that cost his team the game yesterday (the pick six he threw in between two receivers). I get that the free world will rejoice in NE not winning this year but for many other teams, this year would have been considered a great season. Ten teams haven't won 12 games in a decade. Six of those haven't won 12 games in 2-3 decades.

That being said, I do think Brady is partly responsible for reasons most won't even stop to consider. The last few years, he has taken the approach that he would rather do other things than go 100% 24/7/365. That's his prerogative. Family time, endorsement deals, non-profit events, around the world trips, etc. But he regularly blows off anything that isn't mandatory, he doesn't like playing with young players, he's not a huge fan of bringing in guys that don't know the system, it seems like he gets a ton of load management and rest days, etc. In that aspect, that impacts the product on the field and the cohesiveness of the offense.

NE has tried the past couple of seasons to bring guys in to help the offense. For the first time ever, they drafted a first round WR (Harry). Last year they spent first round picks on a RB (Michel) and an OL (Wynn). They acquired Gordon last year. They signed Brown this year. They made an effort to keep Gronk. They signed Ben Watson. They poked around on Demaryius Thomas. They traded for Sanu. We can debate any of those moves as being smart or poor decisions, but at least they tried.

I know people will say the Pats could have Jimmy G now . . . but they went to back-to-back-to-back Super Bowls. Not sure they get to any of those if Jimmy G. was the QB. Who knows what they would have been this year without the massive injury issues they had on the offensive side of the ball.

At this point I am ambivalent if I would want Brady back.  I say that because if Brady wants to keep playing, he will want way more money (which the team won't want to give him). And they would also need to ratchet things up personnel wise on offense and get some more weapons. But that plays into all the things Brady is not really a fan of. New, green bodies that require a lot of practice time to get up to speed. And we know Brady is not going to start getting better throwing the ball . . . he's going to start missing by more and being a tick behind delivering the football. But all those reasons apply to him playing for another team . . . except he would have to get a whole team to do what he wants. Some of that might be mitigated if Brady went somewhere that took on McDaniels as their head coach.

I also think if NE can keep the defense together, they can still be a playoff team no matter who the QB is (assuming the players are healthier than they are now). But as I have been saying for weeks, it is literally impossible at this point to have any idea what to project for NE next year as we have no idea who will be on the roster and roaming the sideline.

So I am not buying that NE with a different QB learning the offense in a week is better than NE with Brady (or Stidham). Mahomes without any weapons would get hammered. Put another way, the Chiefs with Brady and a week to learn the offense would have a much greater chance to win than Mahomes would have playing with the banged up tomato cans NE is trotting out there.

 

[Amused to Death]

Almost the entire NE offense is banged up. Brady has had an elbow injury for weeks and has not been able to practice much. Edelman is said to have a pretty severe shoulder injury and don't be surprised if he has surgery on it as soon as the season is over. Sanu has been trying to play with a high ankle sprain. Harry missed half the season. Michel was sick this week and has had chronic knee issues. The members of the OL collectively have rotated who's been hurt week to week. Their 2 fullbacks are on IR. They had a LB playing offense out of desperation score a TD today. IMO, a better question would be if NE could take on another team's healthy offense, which offense would it be.

Would you take the Eagles offense? No Pro Bowl RG, RT, WR1, WR2, WR3, Pro Bowl TE1, RB1, RB2, RB3?

Did I miss anyone?

 

[Anarchy99]

Would you take the Eagles offense? No Pro Bowl RG, RT, WR1, WR2, WR3, Pro Bowl TE1, RB1, RB2, RB3?

Did I miss anyone?

That would not meet the parameters of being a HEALTHY offense, would it?

 

[Amused to Death]

That would not meet the parameters of being a HEALTHY offense, would it?

Just saying Wentz is playing the best ball of his short career with those injuries.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

If the dark lord thought 12 was the problem you'd see Stidham starting.

 

[Anarchy99]

If the dark lord thought 12 was the problem you'd see Stidham starting.

Yeah, the issue currently is they are bringing a plastic knife to a gunfight on offense.

 

[SoBeDad]

Brady made a few bad throws, especially on the pick six. But his receivers, including Edelman, weren't getting separation and they had a few drops. Dorsett was well-covered on his 4 targets, even on the 50 yard catch. The 22 yard pass to Sanu just as he came open over the middle was vintage Brady. There were only 3 passes to White and 1 to Burkhead, and 1 to TE Watson. That has to change next Sunday.

Bellichick may have lost the game at the end of the 1st half by not trying for at least a FG with 3 TOs and over a minute on the clock. He just ran out the clock. 

 

[da_budman]

The correct answer is zero.  This isn't about Brady in the least.  This is about a team that never could replace their HOF TE and what it meant to the system they operate.  

Anyone who says differently is just itching to pile on as they FINALLY see a vulnerability in the Patriots after waiting about 20 years for their opportunity but the reality is Tom Brady is still Tom Brady. He has more championships than most of us have tried friends and if he is 85% of what he once was, he is still better and more clutch than anybody else in a playoff moment when everything is on the line. 

He is no more still Tom Brady  than Peyton Manning was still  Peyton Manning at the end.  He has no zip on the fastball (that wasnt  ever that fast to start with)

 

[da_budman]

Look I know that offense is hot garbage but Brady is a part of that hot garbage.  Having said that I voted zero.  I dont think there is anybody Belicheck would prefer to have here in this game.  Now how many QBs given time to learn that playbook would be an upgrade at this point over Brady which is a different question?  That number has to be   8-10

 

[Workhorse]

He is no more still Tom Brady  than Peyton Manning was still  Peyton Manning at the end.  He has no zip on the fastball (that wasnt  ever that fast to start with)

Brady in 2019 is still worlds better than Manning was in his last season. By a pretty wide margin.

One thing to keep in mind as we ponder this question and bury the Pats:

AFC Playoff Quarterbacks Career Playoff Records:

Tom Brady: 30-10

Patrick Mahomes: 1-1

Josh Allen: 0-0

Ryan Tannehill: 0-0

Lamar Jackson: 0-1

Deshaun Watson: 0-1

Strange things happen to QBs in the playoffs. Just sayin'.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

He is no more still Tom Brady  than Peyton Manning was still  Peyton Manning at the end.  He has no zip on the fastball (that wasnt  ever that fast to start with)

false.  Manning had fused vertabrae in his neck and Brady has receivers who can't get open.  its reasonable to assign a portion of the anemic offense to brady regression but this comparison is specious.

 

[tjnc09]

Please drop calling other people's takes silly.

I do agree it's been proven over the years it's dangerous to doubt Belichick. 

And I do agree this year feels a little different. 

But I still tend to believe in the Patriots. 

I wasn't personally calling fred's post silly.  Every year the media predicts the end of the Patriots to get clicks and views.  Some places have been predicting the end for a decade:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/479368-5-reasons-why-the-pats-wont-win-another-title-with-belichick-brady

Tom Brady is too old.  There is internal drama in the locker room.  They have no superstars on offense.  No way could they go into Arrowhead and win.  No way would they be able to keep up with the league's best offense in the SB.  Every year is different for them.  The Patriots finished the season with a better record than they did last year and when they lost to the Eagles in the SB that was supposed to be the end. 

The Patriots are a system and the only constant player in that dynasty has been Brady.  SIX SB rings - three more than the other 11 QBs combined (excluding Wentz here since Foles won it).  Give me that experience and success on the big stage over the younger QBs for sure.

The only reason I think this year is different is there are more complete teams on both sides of the ball.  I don't think the blueprint of the Patriots success is much worse this year, but the quality of opponents they need to beat this year seems more daunting than prior years (even if they had secured the #2 seed and a bye).

 

[da_budman]

false.  Manning had fused vertabrae in his neck and Brady has receivers who can't get open.  its reasonable to assign a portion of the anemic offense to brady regression but this comparison is specious.

Its not false.  Brady is not the qb he used to be.....not even close.  Im not sure your argument about Mannings issues help your case.  At least he had that  reason.  Brady has just flat hit the old age wall.  Is it part due to his receivers?  of course it is.  But he has done much more with sub par receivers before.  The big difference is Brady is not even close to the MVP Brady that he used to be.  

 

[fred_1_15301]

It was so long ago that the Patriots were declared for dead and then won the SB anyways.  Oh wait.

They're dead

 

[lod001]

Tannehill. 

 

[tjnc09]

They're dead

Yep, Edelman dropping that wide open first down killed them.  

 

[fred_1_15301]

Yep, Edelman dropping that wide open first down killed them.  

The dropped interception by the Titans at the end of the half was also pretty important.  We can go back and forth on missed plays throughout the game.  As I said earlier, this year felt different for the Pats and it turned out to be true.  They lost several games in the second half of the year that we just aren’t accustomed to seeing with this team.

 

[tjnc09]

The dropped interception by the Titans at the end of the half was also pretty important.  We can go back and forth on missed plays throughout the game.  As I said earlier, this year felt different for the Pats and it turned out to be true.  They lost several games in the second half of the year that we just aren’t accustomed to seeing with this team.

Edelman catches that ball 95%+ of the time.  Whatever play you want to bring up won’t be as unlikely as him dropping that.

 

[fred_1_15301]

Edelman catches that ball 95% of the time.  Whatever play you want to bring up won’t be as unlikely as him dropping that.

You’re harping on one play and assuming that it dictated the outcome of that game.  Nobody knows what would have happened had he caught that ball.  Just like nobody knows what would have happened if the Titans defender caught an absolute gift of an interception.  But none of that really matters.  The bigger point is that this year’s Patriots team had a lot more vulnerabilities than usual and I personally didn’t believe that they were a super bowl team.  The Patriots that we know just don’t fall apart at the end of the year like they did this year.  If you think they bounce back next year, that’s fine. I think they’re in trouble.    

 

[NotSmart]

The poll question isn't clear as written, I think a lot more people would say the answer is Zero if they knew that whatever replacement QB would only have one week to get ready for their first game with the Pats.

There's no way I believe Belichick would have swapped QBs with only a week to prepare.

 

[tjnc09]

You’re harping on one play and assuming that it dictated the outcome of that game.  Nobody knows what would have happened had he caught that ball.  Just like nobody knows what would have happened if the Titans defender caught an absolute gift of an interception.  But none of that really matters.  The bigger point is that this year’s Patriots team had a lot more vulnerabilities than usual and I personally didn’t believe that they were a super bowl team.  The Patriots that we know just don’t fall apart at the end of the year like they did this year.  If you think they bounce back next year, that’s fine. I think they’re in trouble.    

They won more games than last year and were SB favorites for the majority of the year.  

 

[fred_1_15301]

They won more games than last year and were SB favorites for the majority of the year.  

When was the last time this season where they were the favorites to win the super bowl?  Was it before their loss to Baltimore?  Houston? KC? Miami?  How did the difficulty level of their schedule this year compare to last year before the stretch of losses that occurred when they started facing good teams?
 

Whatever- I don’t feel like arguing this anymore. You think the dynasty is still alive.  I don’t agree. I’m not going to change your mind and you’re not going to change mine.      

 

[tjnc09]

When was the last time this season where they were the favorites to win the super bowl?  Was it before their loss to Baltimore?  Houston? KC? Miami?  How did the difficulty level of their schedule this year compare to last year before the stretch of losses that occurred when they started facing good teams?
 

Whatever- I don’t feel like arguing this anymore. You think the dynasty is still alive.  I don’t agree. I’m not going to change your mind and you’re not going to change mine.      

SB odds throughout the season take into account future games.  Their difficulty of schedule compared to last year was the same.  Everything you thought you were seeing with this team was being talked about them last year too.

That’s quite convenient you are now done arguing after responding.

 

[tjnc09]

How many QBs would the Saints rather have for this playoff run?  I thought people said Drew Brees was better than Tom Brady.  Two costly turnovers especially that last fumble in the 4th.  He might not even be good enough to be their team’s back up at this point.

 

[fred_1_15301]

SB odds throughout the season take into account future games.  Their difficulty of schedule compared to last year was the same.  Everything you thought you were seeing with this team was being talked about them last year too.

That’s quite convenient you are now done arguing after responding.

It's quite convenient of you to repeatedly respond to me without backing up any of your statements.  Show me a reference that supports your assertion that their difficulty of schedule is the same as last year.  I asked you a simple question based on your statement that they were "SB favorites for the majority of the year". When was the last time this year where they were the super bowl favorites?  You couldn't answer it.  They had an absolute cupcake schedule to begin the year (I'm sure you'll deny that though) and then when they didn't?  Go figure - they started losing.   

The reason I don't want to argue with you is because I know that you're not capable of accepting another point of view.  But I guess we can keep going - just provide me those references.

 

[tjnc09]

It's quite convenient of you to repeatedly respond to me without backing up any of your statements.  Show me a reference that supports your assertion that their difficulty of schedule is the same as last year.  I asked you a simple question based on your statement that they were "SB favorites for the majority of the year". When was the last time this year where they were the super bowl favorites?  You couldn't answer it.  They had an absolute cupcake schedule to begin the year (I'm sure you'll deny that though) and then when they didn't?  Go figure - they started losing.   

The reason I don't want to argue with you is because I know that you're not capable of accepting another point of view.  But I guess we can keep going - just provide me those references.

They were still the SB favorites until week 12 despite losing to Baltimore.  That’s the majority of the season.  They were the third highest favorite even after losing to KC too (behind Baltimore and SF).  Your opinion that they had noticeable vulnerabilities was not reflected by the market.  Losing because of a few fluky plays doesn’t mean you were correct.

Sagarin SOS was the same.

The information is all out there if you care to spend the time on the research.

 

[da_budman]

The poll question isn't clear as written, I think a lot more people would say the answer is Zero if they knew that whatever replacement QB would only have one week to get ready for their first game with the Pats.

There's no way I believe Belichick would have swapped QBs with only a week to prepare.

True but I think only the most desperate of coachs would think they would do better on one weeks notice with ANY other qb who didnt know the playbook/system.