How To Get To Heaven When You Die. Read The First Post. Then Q&A Discussion. Ask Questions Here! (2 Viewers)

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

What about Christian Morality? Is this a malleable concept that could mean many things to many users, or is it fairly fixed? I'm honestly asking, and I expect that the answer is "Yes," theology notwithstanding, that practically all Christians share the same morality.

As a Christian I would answer "No" and while not precisely about morality, you see that in this thread. I think most all Christians would argue that morality is about avoiding sin, but I think we would disagree with what is sin. My answer is simple - is the act selfish? Martin Luther defined sin as the turning inward on oneself. (I think of the character Pink in Pink FLoyds The Wall.) But others will point to specific"thou shall not" passages to define it. And the there is of course arguing when the situation isn't black and white, when it is "damned if you do, damned if you don't." And more debates into when morality should be part of the law of the land. Etc, So I'm going to answer "No". And I think that is a good thing as the internal struggles are valuable, if not necessarily wanted.

 

[massraider]

Thanks. Can you share them here from this thread?

You're welcome. I've no idea why this homework assignment would be limited to this thread.

As you have said, people tend to generalize. I think we would all agree with that. And I don't know if anyone would deny that Christians are within their rights to pick and choose the history of their faith that they want to focus on. Or deny that it happens.

The generalization is similar if I said, 'hey, it's not atheists out there assaulting altar boys.'

I don't think my observation is particularly outlandish, and I think most readers comprehend what I was saying.

Woz knew what I meant.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Thanks. Can you share them here from this thread?

You're welcome. I've no idea why this homework assignment would be limited to this thread.

As you have said, people tend to generalize. I think we would all agree with that. And I don't know if anyone would deny that Christians are within their rights to pick and choose the history of their faith that they want to focus on. Or deny that it happens.

The generalization is similar if I said, 'hey, it's not atheists out there assaulting altar boys.'

I don't think my observation is particularly outlandish, and I think most readers comprehend what I was saying.

Woz knew what I meant.

It wasn't atheists who were assaulting alter boys. That statement is factually correct.

I don't get it.

Edit: If somebody said something like "Christians like to go around and molest alter boys," that would be pretty inflammatory. But "Self-proclaimed Christians in the Boston diocese systematically molested alter boys and tried to cover it up," well that's just true. That actually happened and it was well-documented. We discussed it here extensively.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Thanks. Can you share them here from this thread?

You're welcome. I've no idea why this homework assignment would be limited to this thread.

As you have said, people tend to generalize. I think we would all agree with that. And I don't know if anyone would deny that Christians are within their rights to pick and choose the history of their faith that they want to focus on. Or deny that it happens.

The generalization is similar if I said, 'hey, it's not atheists out there assaulting altar boys.'

I don't think my observation is particularly outlandish, and I think most readers comprehend what I was saying.

Woz knew what I meant.

Thanks. I thought you were talking about this thread.

But if you want to pull from the whole forum, that would be helpful too in understanding.

I didn't think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure I fully understand you on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when you said you sure we could find more examples without looking too hard.

 

[Mister CIA]

As I've become older, I think it's a good practice to not generalize "the other" side. People are individuals.

But also I think it's wise to accept one will be generalized. Especially for negative things. It's human nature and it happens.

I could spend a lot of time being defensive when someone says "the vast majority of believers" don't model Jesus. The reality is the person who said this obviously thinks this for a reason. So instead of being defensive, I can acknowledge "my side" has failed there and move toward how we can do better.

To me, it's how good faith discussion assuming the best of those involved works.

Asking nicely in case the tone does not come through... What about Christian Morality? Is this a malleable concept that could mean many things to many users, or is it fairly fixed? I'm honestly asking, and I expect that the answer is "Yes," theology notwithstanding, that practically all Christians share the same morality.

Just so I don't make it look like I'm slow-walking this into a gotcha - I know we can't talk politics here, but this is a gentle broach - but I can help but think of the #1 political story of the 1990s (is it one word, or two? ... that controversy), where an overwhelming swath of a certain persuasion - The Moral Majority - made the story an absolute referendum on morality (I always thought of it as Christian Morality too). Well, fast-forward 20 years where a similar-enough event occurred, and now that morality has no voice. Why?

Maybe I could state this more charitably, but I see this as an absolute shift in Christian character and morality, without an explanation - in just two short decades. I can't imgine hitching my value wagon to this.

Thanks for asking nicely. Everyone is this thread has been nice.

When you ask, "What about Christian Morality?" my answer is I don't know I ever think about that much.

I don't have any sort of thought on some over arching philosophy of "Christian Morality".

I have a very clear sense of what it means to try and model and follow Jesus as I think we're called to do as Christians. Is that what you mean?

As for "Moral Majority" I know the term but I couldn't give you a thorough explanation of what it meant. Always sort of to me seemed like "Family Values". What exactly is that? Honor your mom and dad? Love your children? That seems hardly something exclusive to Christians.

Same as I said earlier in that I don't think at all that Christians have any monopoly on "Morals". That seems just silly to me.

As for asking charitably about a shift in Christian character and morality in the last 20 years, I don't know what you mean there. I've been a Christian for about 30 years and it seems to have been pretty much the same for me during that entire time.

Or maybe I'm not understanding the question.

I was fishing for an answer to why two similar political stories received different responses from the seemingly the same people, where my use of seemingly dulls the point I was trying to make.

I might take another run at this later, but I should probably read a book first.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

As I've become older, I think it's a good practice to not generalize "the other" side. People are individuals.

But also I think it's wise to accept one will be generalized. Especially for negative things. It's human nature and it happens.

I could spend a lot of time being defensive when someone says "the vast majority of believers" don't model Jesus. The reality is the person who said this obviously thinks this for a reason. So instead of being defensive, I can acknowledge "my side" has failed there and move toward how we can do better.

To me, it's how good faith discussion assuming the best of those involved works.

Asking nicely in case the tone does not come through... What about Christian Morality? Is this a malleable concept that could mean many things to many users, or is it fairly fixed? I'm honestly asking, and I expect that the answer is "Yes," theology notwithstanding, that practically all Christians share the same morality.

Just so I don't make it look like I'm slow-walking this into a gotcha - I know we can't talk politics here, but this is a gentle broach - but I can help but think of the #1 political story of the 1990s (is it one word, or two? ... that controversy), where an overwhelming swath of a certain persuasion - The Moral Majority - made the story an absolute referendum on morality (I always thought of it as Christian Morality too). Well, fast-forward 20 years where a similar-enough event occurred, and now that morality has no voice. Why?

Maybe I could state this more charitably, but I see this as an absolute shift in Christian character and morality, without an explanation - in just two short decades. I can't imgine hitching my value wagon to this.

Thanks for asking nicely. Everyone is this thread has been nice.

When you ask, "What about Christian Morality?" my answer is I don't know I ever think about that much.

I don't have any sort of thought on some over arching philosophy of "Christian Morality".

I have a very clear sense of what it means to try and model and follow Jesus as I think we're called to do as Christians. Is that what you mean?

As for "Moral Majority" I know the term but I couldn't give you a thorough explanation of what it meant. Always sort of to me seemed like "Family Values". What exactly is that? Honor your mom and dad? Love your children? That seems hardly something exclusive to Christians.

Same as I said earlier in that I don't think at all that Christians have any monopoly on "Morals". That seems just silly to me.

As for asking charitably about a shift in Christian character and morality in the last 20 years, I don't know what you mean there. I've been a Christian for about 30 years and it seems to have been pretty much the same for me during that entire time.

Or maybe I'm not understanding the question.

I was fishing for an answer to why two similar political stories received different responses from the seemingly the same people, where my use of seemingly dulls the point I was trying to make.

I might take another run at this later, but I should probably read a book first.

I think I know what you're getting at, and if I'm right, it's a valid question that merits an answer. But if you and I are on the same wavelength it's also super-political and partisan. Maybe think of it as people putting politics first and religion second? That's a parsimonious explanation, and I also think it's basically correct.

The caveat here is that I'm not an evangelical and I don't have my finger on the pulse of that community.

 

[Mister CIA]

As I've become older, I think it's a good practice to not generalize "the other" side. People are individuals.

But also I think it's wise to accept one will be generalized. Especially for negative things. It's human nature and it happens.

I could spend a lot of time being defensive when someone says "the vast majority of believers" don't model Jesus. The reality is the person who said this obviously thinks this for a reason. So instead of being defensive, I can acknowledge "my side" has failed there and move toward how we can do better.

To me, it's how good faith discussion assuming the best of those involved works.

Asking nicely in case the tone does not come through... What about Christian Morality? Is this a malleable concept that could mean many things to many users, or is it fairly fixed? I'm honestly asking, and I expect that the answer is "Yes," theology notwithstanding, that practically all Christians share the same morality.

Just so I don't make it look like I'm slow-walking this into a gotcha - I know we can't talk politics here, but this is a gentle broach - but I can help but think of the #1 political story of the 1990s (is it one word, or two? ... that controversy), where an overwhelming swath of a certain persuasion - The Moral Majority - made the story an absolute referendum on morality (I always thought of it as Christian Morality too). Well, fast-forward 20 years where a similar-enough event occurred, and now that morality has no voice. Why?

Maybe I could state this more charitably, but I see this as an absolute shift in Christian character and morality, without an explanation - in just two short decades. I can't imgine hitching my value wagon to this.

Thanks for asking nicely. Everyone is this thread has been nice.

When you ask, "What about Christian Morality?" my answer is I don't know I ever think about that much.

I don't have any sort of thought on some over arching philosophy of "Christian Morality".

I have a very clear sense of what it means to try and model and follow Jesus as I think we're called to do as Christians. Is that what you mean?

As for "Moral Majority" I know the term but I couldn't give you a thorough explanation of what it meant. Always sort of to me seemed like "Family Values". What exactly is that? Honor your mom and dad? Love your children? That seems hardly something exclusive to Christians.

Same as I said earlier in that I don't think at all that Christians have any monopoly on "Morals". That seems just silly to me.

As for asking charitably about a shift in Christian character and morality in the last 20 years, I don't know what you mean there. I've been a Christian for about 30 years and it seems to have been pretty much the same for me during that entire time.

Or maybe I'm not understanding the question.

I was fishing for an answer to why two similar political stories received different responses from the seemingly the same people, where my use of seemingly dulls the point I was trying to make.

I might take another run at this later, but I should probably read a book first.

I think I know what you're getting at, and if I'm right, it's a valid question that merits an answer. But if you and I are on the same wavelength it's also super-political and partisan. Maybe think of it as people putting politics first and religion second? That's a parsimonious explanation, and I also think it's basically correct.

The caveat here is that I'm not an evangelical and I don't have my finger on the pulse of that community.

You said it better. Nail on the head.

 

[Paddington]

As I've become older, I think it's a good practice to not generalize "the other" side. People are individuals.

But also I think it's wise to accept one will be generalized. Especially for negative things. It's human nature and it happens.

I could spend a lot of time being defensive when someone says "the vast majority of believers" don't model Jesus. The reality is the person who said this obviously thinks this for a reason. So instead of being defensive, I can acknowledge "my side" has failed there and move toward how we can do better.

To me, it's how good faith discussion assuming the best of those involved works.

Asking nicely in case the tone does not come through... What about Christian Morality? Is this a malleable concept that could mean many things to many users, or is it fairly fixed? I'm honestly asking, and I expect that the answer is "Yes," theology notwithstanding, that practically all Christians share the same morality.

Just so I don't make it look like I'm slow-walking this into a gotcha - I know we can't talk politics here, but this is a gentle broach - but I can help but think of the #1 political story of the 1990s (is it one word, or two? ... that controversy), where an overwhelming swath of a certain persuasion - The Moral Majority - made the story an absolute referendum on morality (I always thought of it as Christian Morality too). Well, fast-forward 20 years where a similar-enough event occurred, and now morality has no voice. Why?

Maybe I could state this more charitably, but I see this as an absolute shift in Christian character and morality, without an explanation - in just two short decades. I can't imgine hitching my value wagon to this.

I've been posting on this forum for over 20 years, and I don't think I've ever raised a finger in defense of Jerry Falwell or the Moral Majority. I just remember those people as the one's who didn't want me listening to rock music or playing D&D.

Still not a fan, but do these people even exist anymore? I will continue to not support them, but it's been an extremely long time since I heard anybody get worked up over violent video games or whatever.

i would defend Jerry Falwell. He wanted to preserve the Christian morality in American culture because it's what made America great. Yes, they did go overboard about the Rock Music in the 1980s and I was also a victim of that, but he was trying to keep America from falling away from Christian principals. I was actually at the SBC in Jacksonville, FL and heard him speak there. I tried to meet him, but he had to jump on a plane right away to get back home. Those men had warts, but they were great men of God who were trying to preserve Christian values in America. They just went over board on some things I do admit. Music, Games, Dancing, Movies, they didn't really understand what made these things evil or good. It was the content, not the style. They focused too much on the style rather than the content. Dancing of any kind was a no no and same with modern movies. In their defense, there was also an effort in these industries to move America farther down the road of immorality. The movies became dirtier, the songs used to be about love, now they are about sex, the dancing is raunchy, ect. So, in a way, they had good reason to be alarmed, but they just focused in the wrong areas.

 

[massraider]

I didn't think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure I fully understand you on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when you said you sure we could find more examples without looking too hard

I do think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure you fully understand me on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when I said I sure we could find more examples without looking too hard.

I find both halves of the statement to be self evident. One would otherwise believe Christians never generalize other people, or they take ownership of all the scammers/ criminals/atrocities committed in the name of spreading the good word.

Maybe I'm sheltered or Knoxville, TN is special but I've lived here for 35 years and I've been involved in our church for 30 years and I've never once heard anything remotely like that.

How many variations of this post do you suppose exist in this forum?

The hypocricy i am pointing out is that Christians are all one team when pointing out what they perceive as benefits of faith, yet when Christians act badly, it's some bad actors from some other congregation.
I feel like anyone can understand that thought.

 

[Mister CIA]

I didn't think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure I fully understand you on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when you said you sure we could find more examples without looking too hard

I do think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure you fully understand me on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when I said I sure we could find more examples without looking too hard.

I find both halves of the statement to be self evident. One would otherwise believe Christians never generalize other people, or they take ownership of all the scammers/ criminals/atrocities committed in the name of spreading the good word.

Maybe I'm sheltered or Knoxville, TN is special but I've lived here for 35 years and I've been involved in our church for 30 years and I've never once heard anything remotely like that.

How many variations of this post do you suppose exist in this forum?

The hypocricy i am pointing out is that Christians are all one team when pointing out what they perceive as benefits of faith, yet when Christians act badly, it's some bad actors from some other congregation.
I feel like anyone can understand that thought.

Well said.

 

[Paddington]

I didn't think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure I fully understand you on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when you said you sure we could find more examples without looking too hard

I do think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure you fully understand me on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when I said I sure we could find more examples without looking too hard.

I find both halves of the statement to be self evident. One would otherwise believe Christians never generalize other people, or they take ownership of all the scammers/ criminals/atrocities committed in the name of spreading the good word.

Maybe I'm sheltered or Knoxville, TN is special but I've lived here for 35 years and I've been involved in our church for 30 years and I've never once heard anything remotely like that.

How many variations of this post do you suppose exist in this forum?

The hypocricy i am pointing out is that Christians are all one team when pointing out what they perceive as benefits of faith, yet when Christians act badly, it's some bad actors from some other congregation.
I feel like anyone can understand that thought.

I don't think Christians act anywhere near as badly as non Christians. Some times they do inappropriate things, yes. I have been a victim of Christians acting badly. They are not perfect either. No one said that they were. The purpose of the 10 Commandments is to show mankind that they are not perfect and cannot keep them perfectly. That is why God sent His Son Jesus into the World to live a perfect life and be our Sacrifice for our sins. Some Christians misinterpret the Bible and or use Christianity and the Bible to behave badly. Other times, they are defending themselves from evil men who would persecute them and then act like a victim when the Christian fights back. That is the most common thing that happens. Most Christians are peaceful and kind. I live in the North where there a lot of Secular, non believers and they are rude, arrogant and impersonal. It didn't used to be like this in the 1980s and before, but as it became less Christian, it became more and more Secular, Rude and Impersonal. When I go down to the Bible belt, I am amazed at how kind and personable the people there are who have a more Christian culture. Hence the phrase "Southern Hospitality". It reminds me of how it used to be in the North before it became Secular.

 

[dkp993]

I didn't think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure I fully understand you on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when you said you sure we could find more examples without looking too hard

I do think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure you fully understand me on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when I said I sure we could find more examples without looking too hard.

I find both halves of the statement to be self evident. One would otherwise believe Christians never generalize other people, or they take ownership of all the scammers/ criminals/atrocities committed in the name of spreading the good word.

Maybe I'm sheltered or Knoxville, TN is special but I've lived here for 35 years and I've been involved in our church for 30 years and I've never once heard anything remotely like that.

How many variations of this post do you suppose exist in this forum?

The hypocricy i am pointing out is that Christians are all one team when pointing out what they perceive as benefits of faith, yet when Christians act badly, it's some bad actors from some other congregation.
I feel like anyone can understand that thought.

I don't think Christians act anywhere near as badly as non Christians. Some times they do inappropriate things, yes. I have been a victim of Christians acting badly. They are not perfect either. No one said that they were. The purpose of the 10 Commandments is to show mankind that they are not perfect and cannot keep them perfectly. That is why God sent His Son Jesus into the World to live a perfect life and be our Sacrifice for our sins. Some Christians misinterpret the Bible and or use Christianity and the Bible to behave badly. Other times, they are defending themselves from evil men who would persecute them and then act like a victim when the Christian fights back. That is the most common thing that happens. Most Christians are peaceful and kind. I live in the North where there a lot of Secular, non believers and they are rude, arrogant and impersonal. It didn't used to be like this in the 1980s and before, but as it became less Christian, it became more and more Secular, Rude and Impersonal. When I go down to the Bible belt, I am amazed at how kind and personable the people there are who have a more Christian culture. Hence the phrase "Southern Hospitality". It reminds me of how it used to be in the North before it became Secular.

WOW, just, wow. Wouldn’t even know where to begin to respond to this.

 

[Zow]

I didn't think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure I fully understand you on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when you said you sure we could find more examples without looking too hard

I do think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure you fully understand me on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when I said I sure we could find more examples without looking too hard.

I find both halves of the statement to be self evident. One would otherwise believe Christians never generalize other people, or they take ownership of all the scammers/ criminals/atrocities committed in the name of spreading the good word.

Maybe I'm sheltered or Knoxville, TN is special but I've lived here for 35 years and I've been involved in our church for 30 years and I've never once heard anything remotely like that.

How many variations of this post do you suppose exist in this forum?

The hypocricy i am pointing out is that Christians are all one team when pointing out what they perceive as benefits of faith, yet when Christians act badly, it's some bad actors from some other congregation.
I feel like anyone can understand that thought.

I don't think Christians act anywhere near as badly as non Christians. Some times they do inappropriate things, yes. I have been a victim of Christians acting badly. They are not perfect either. No one said that they were. The purpose of the 10 Commandments is to show mankind that they are not perfect and cannot keep them perfectly. That is why God sent His Son Jesus into the World to live a perfect life and be our Sacrifice for our sins. Some Christians misinterpret the Bible and or use Christianity and the Bible to behave badly. Other times, they are defending themselves from evil men who would persecute them and then act like a victim when the Christian fights back. That is the most common thing that happens. Most Christians are peaceful and kind. I live in the North where there a lot of Secular, non believers and they are rude, arrogant and impersonal. It didn't used to be like this in the 1980s and before, but as it became less Christian, it became more and more Secular, Rude and Impersonal. When I go down to the Bible belt, I am amazed at how kind and personable the people there are who have a more Christian culture. Hence the phrase "Southern Hospitality". It reminds me of how it used to be in the North before it became Secular.

WOW, just, wow. Wouldn’t even know where to begin to respond to this.

The guy just championed Jerry Falwell a few posts up. Not sure why you're then surprised with his subsequent post.

 

[Paddington]

I didn't think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure I fully understand you on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when you said you sure we could find more examples without looking too hard

I do think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure you fully understand me on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when I said I sure we could find more examples without looking too hard.

I find both halves of the statement to be self evident. One would otherwise believe Christians never generalize other people, or they take ownership of all the scammers/ criminals/atrocities committed in the name of spreading the good word.

Maybe I'm sheltered or Knoxville, TN is special but I've lived here for 35 years and I've been involved in our church for 30 years and I've never once heard anything remotely like that.

How many variations of this post do you suppose exist in this forum?

The hypocricy i am pointing out is that Christians are all one team when pointing out what they perceive as benefits of faith, yet when Christians act badly, it's some bad actors from some other congregation.
I feel like anyone can understand that thought.

I don't think Christians act anywhere near as badly as non Christians. Some times they do inappropriate things, yes. I have been a victim of Christians acting badly. They are not perfect either. No one said that they were. The purpose of the 10 Commandments is to show mankind that they are not perfect and cannot keep them perfectly. That is why God sent His Son Jesus into the World to live a perfect life and be our Sacrifice for our sins. Some Christians misinterpret the Bible and or use Christianity and the Bible to behave badly. Other times, they are defending themselves from evil men who would persecute them and then act like a victim when the Christian fights back. That is the most common thing that happens. Most Christians are peaceful and kind. I live in the North where there a lot of Secular, non believers and they are rude, arrogant and impersonal. It didn't used to be like this in the 1980s and before, but as it became less Christian, it became more and more Secular, Rude and Impersonal. When I go down to the Bible belt, I am amazed at how kind and personable the people there are who have a more Christian culture. Hence the phrase "Southern Hospitality". It reminds me of how it used to be in the North before it became Secular.

WOW, just, wow. Wouldn’t even know where to begin to respond to this.

The guy just championed Jerry Falwell a few posts up. Not sure why you're then surprised with his subsequent post.

Jerry Falwell was a great man. He founded Liberty University and was head of the Moral Majority. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[dkp993]

I didn't think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure I fully understand you on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when you said you sure we could find more examples without looking too hard

I do think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure you fully understand me on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when I said I sure we could find more examples without looking too hard.

I find both halves of the statement to be self evident. One would otherwise believe Christians never generalize other people, or they take ownership of all the scammers/ criminals/atrocities committed in the name of spreading the good word.

Maybe I'm sheltered or Knoxville, TN is special but I've lived here for 35 years and I've been involved in our church for 30 years and I've never once heard anything remotely like that.

How many variations of this post do you suppose exist in this forum?

The hypocricy i am pointing out is that Christians are all one team when pointing out what they perceive as benefits of faith, yet when Christians act badly, it's some bad actors from some other congregation.
I feel like anyone can understand that thought.

I don't think Christians act anywhere near as badly as non Christians. Some times they do inappropriate things, yes. I have been a victim of Christians acting badly. They are not perfect either. No one said that they were. The purpose of the 10 Commandments is to show mankind that they are not perfect and cannot keep them perfectly. That is why God sent His Son Jesus into the World to live a perfect life and be our Sacrifice for our sins. Some Christians misinterpret the Bible and or use Christianity and the Bible to behave badly. Other times, they are defending themselves from evil men who would persecute them and then act like a victim when the Christian fights back. That is the most common thing that happens. Most Christians are peaceful and kind. I live in the North where there a lot of Secular, non believers and they are rude, arrogant and impersonal. It didn't used to be like this in the 1980s and before, but as it became less Christian, it became more and more Secular, Rude and Impersonal. When I go down to the Bible belt, I am amazed at how kind and personable the people there are who have a more Christian culture. Hence the phrase "Southern Hospitality". It reminds me of how it used to be in the North before it became Secular.

WOW, just, wow. Wouldn’t even know where to begin to respond to this.

The guy just championed Jerry Falwell a few posts up. Not sure why you're then surprised with his subsequent post.

Surprise is not really what I feel. “In awe” is a better description of how I feel, the lack of awareness when people make statements like this is awe inspiring.

 

[Paddington]

I didn't think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure I fully understand you on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when you said you sure we could find more examples without looking too hard

I do think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure you fully understand me on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when I said I sure we could find more examples without looking too hard.

I find both halves of the statement to be self evident. One would otherwise believe Christians never generalize other people, or they take ownership of all the scammers/ criminals/atrocities committed in the name of spreading the good word.

Maybe I'm sheltered or Knoxville, TN is special but I've lived here for 35 years and I've been involved in our church for 30 years and I've never once heard anything remotely like that.

How many variations of this post do you suppose exist in this forum?

The hypocricy i am pointing out is that Christians are all one team when pointing out what they perceive as benefits of faith, yet when Christians act badly, it's some bad actors from some other congregation.
I feel like anyone can understand that thought.

I don't think Christians act anywhere near as badly as non Christians. Some times they do inappropriate things, yes. I have been a victim of Christians acting badly. They are not perfect either. No one said that they were. The purpose of the 10 Commandments is to show mankind that they are not perfect and cannot keep them perfectly. That is why God sent His Son Jesus into the World to live a perfect life and be our Sacrifice for our sins. Some Christians misinterpret the Bible and or use Christianity and the Bible to behave badly. Other times, they are defending themselves from evil men who would persecute them and then act like a victim when the Christian fights back. That is the most common thing that happens. Most Christians are peaceful and kind. I live in the North where there a lot of Secular, non believers and they are rude, arrogant and impersonal. It didn't used to be like this in the 1980s and before, but as it became less Christian, it became more and more Secular, Rude and Impersonal. When I go down to the Bible belt, I am amazed at how kind and personable the people there are who have a more Christian culture. Hence the phrase "Southern Hospitality". It reminds me of how it used to be in the North before it became Secular.

WOW, just, wow. Wouldn’t even know where to begin to respond to this.

The guy just championed Jerry Falwell a few posts up. Not sure why you're then surprised with his subsequent post.

Surprise is not really what I feel. “In awe” is a better description of how I feel, the lack of awareness when people make statements like this is awe inspiring.

Lack of awareness in what way? That he was a strong Christian, founded a good Christian University and help fight for Christian morality? Those are admirable traits. I am very aware, that's why I think he is a great man of God. Why is that offensive to you?

 

[dkp993]

I didn't think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure I fully understand you on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when you said you sure we could find more examples without looking too hard

I do think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure you fully understand me on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when I said I sure we could find more examples without looking too hard.

I find both halves of the statement to be self evident. One would otherwise believe Christians never generalize other people, or they take ownership of all the scammers/ criminals/atrocities committed in the name of spreading the good word.

Maybe I'm sheltered or Knoxville, TN is special but I've lived here for 35 years and I've been involved in our church for 30 years and I've never once heard anything remotely like that.

How many variations of this post do you suppose exist in this forum?

The hypocricy i am pointing out is that Christians are all one team when pointing out what they perceive as benefits of faith, yet when Christians act badly, it's some bad actors from some other congregation.
I feel like anyone can understand that thought.

I don't think Christians act anywhere near as badly as non Christians. Some times they do inappropriate things, yes. I have been a victim of Christians acting badly. They are not perfect either. No one said that they were. The purpose of the 10 Commandments is to show mankind that they are not perfect and cannot keep them perfectly. That is why God sent His Son Jesus into the World to live a perfect life and be our Sacrifice for our sins. Some Christians misinterpret the Bible and or use Christianity and the Bible to behave badly. Other times, they are defending themselves from evil men who would persecute them and then act like a victim when the Christian fights back. That is the most common thing that happens. Most Christians are peaceful and kind. I live in the North where there a lot of Secular, non believers and they are rude, arrogant and impersonal. It didn't used to be like this in the 1980s and before, but as it became less Christian, it became more and more Secular, Rude and Impersonal. When I go down to the Bible belt, I am amazed at how kind and personable the people there are who have a more Christian culture. Hence the phrase "Southern Hospitality". It reminds me of how it used to be in the North before it became Secular.

WOW, just, wow. Wouldn’t even know where to begin to respond to this.

The guy just championed Jerry Falwell a few posts up. Not sure why you're then surprised with his subsequent post.

Surprise is not really what I feel. “In awe” is a better description of how I feel, the lack of awareness when people make statements like this is awe inspiring.

Lack of awareness in what way? That he was a strong Christian, founded a good Christian University and help fight for Christian morality? Those are admirable traits. I am very aware, that's why I think he is a great man of God. Why is that offensive to you?

First to be clear, I’m in no way offended by your beliefs. You have full right to believe whatever you like. Secondly my statement wasn’t about Jerry, it’s the rest of your thoughts on the subject that inspired my awe.

 

[Paddington]

I didn't think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure I fully understand you on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when you said you sure we could find more examples without looking too hard

I do think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure you fully understand me on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when I said I sure we could find more examples without looking too hard.

I find both halves of the statement to be self evident. One would otherwise believe Christians never generalize other people, or they take ownership of all the scammers/ criminals/atrocities committed in the name of spreading the good word.

Maybe I'm sheltered or Knoxville, TN is special but I've lived here for 35 years and I've been involved in our church for 30 years and I've never once heard anything remotely like that.

How many variations of this post do you suppose exist in this forum?

The hypocricy i am pointing out is that Christians are all one team when pointing out what they perceive as benefits of faith, yet when Christians act badly, it's some bad actors from some other congregation.
I feel like anyone can understand that thought.

I don't think Christians act anywhere near as badly as non Christians. Some times they do inappropriate things, yes. I have been a victim of Christians acting badly. They are not perfect either. No one said that they were. The purpose of the 10 Commandments is to show mankind that they are not perfect and cannot keep them perfectly. That is why God sent His Son Jesus into the World to live a perfect life and be our Sacrifice for our sins. Some Christians misinterpret the Bible and or use Christianity and the Bible to behave badly. Other times, they are defending themselves from evil men who would persecute them and then act like a victim when the Christian fights back. That is the most common thing that happens. Most Christians are peaceful and kind. I live in the North where there a lot of Secular, non believers and they are rude, arrogant and impersonal. It didn't used to be like this in the 1980s and before, but as it became less Christian, it became more and more Secular, Rude and Impersonal. When I go down to the Bible belt, I am amazed at how kind and personable the people there are who have a more Christian culture. Hence the phrase "Southern Hospitality". It reminds me of how it used to be in the North before it became Secular.

WOW, just, wow. Wouldn’t even know where to begin to respond to this.

The guy just championed Jerry Falwell a few posts up. Not sure why you're then surprised with his subsequent post.

Surprise is not really what I feel. “In awe” is a better description of how I feel, the lack of awareness when people make statements like this is awe inspiring.

Lack of awareness in what way? That he was a strong Christian, founded a good Christian University and help fight for Christian morality? Those are admirable traits. I am very aware, that's why I think he is a great man of God. Why is that offensive to you?

First to be clear, I’m in no way offended by your beliefs. You have full right to believe whatever you like. Secondly my statement wasn’t about Jerry, it’s the rest of your thoughts on the subject that inspired my awe.

The fact that he founded Liberty University and was head of the Moral Majority? Why?

 

[dkp993]

I didn't think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure I fully understand you on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when you said you sure we could find more examples without looking too hard

I do think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure you fully understand me on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when I said I sure we could find more examples without looking too hard.

I find both halves of the statement to be self evident. One would otherwise believe Christians never generalize other people, or they take ownership of all the scammers/ criminals/atrocities committed in the name of spreading the good word.

Maybe I'm sheltered or Knoxville, TN is special but I've lived here for 35 years and I've been involved in our church for 30 years and I've never once heard anything remotely like that.

How many variations of this post do you suppose exist in this forum?

The hypocricy i am pointing out is that Christians are all one team when pointing out what they perceive as benefits of faith, yet when Christians act badly, it's some bad actors from some other congregation.
I feel like anyone can understand that thought.

I don't think Christians act anywhere near as badly as non Christians. Some times they do inappropriate things, yes. I have been a victim of Christians acting badly. They are not perfect either. No one said that they were. The purpose of the 10 Commandments is to show mankind that they are not perfect and cannot keep them perfectly. That is why God sent His Son Jesus into the World to live a perfect life and be our Sacrifice for our sins. Some Christians misinterpret the Bible and or use Christianity and the Bible to behave badly. Other times, they are defending themselves from evil men who would persecute them and then act like a victim when the Christian fights back. That is the most common thing that happens. Most Christians are peaceful and kind. I live in the North where there a lot of Secular, non believers and they are rude, arrogant and impersonal. It didn't used to be like this in the 1980s and before, but as it became less Christian, it became more and more Secular, Rude and Impersonal. When I go down to the Bible belt, I am amazed at how kind and personable the people there are who have a more Christian culture. Hence the phrase "Southern Hospitality". It reminds me of how it used to be in the North before it became Secular.

WOW, just, wow. Wouldn’t even know where to begin to respond to this.

The guy just championed Jerry Falwell a few posts up. Not sure why you're then surprised with his subsequent post.

Surprise is not really what I feel. “In awe” is a better description of how I feel, the lack of awareness when people make statements like this is awe inspiring.

Lack of awareness in what way? That he was a strong Christian, founded a good Christian University and help fight for Christian morality? Those are admirable traits. I am very aware, that's why I think he is a great man of God. Why is that offensive to you?

First to be clear, I’m in no way offended by your beliefs. You have full right to believe whatever you like. Secondly my statement wasn’t about Jerry, it’s the rest of your thoughts on the subject that inspired my awe.

The fact that he founded Liberty University and was head of the Moral Majority? Why?

Not to be rude but you’re proving my point about lack of awareness.

 

[Mister CIA]

I remember Hugh Freeze.

 

[Paddington]

I didn't think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure I fully understand you on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when you said you sure we could find more examples without looking too hard

I do think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure you fully understand me on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when I said I sure we could find more examples without looking too hard.

I find both halves of the statement to be self evident. One would otherwise believe Christians never generalize other people, or they take ownership of all the scammers/ criminals/atrocities committed in the name of spreading the good word.

Maybe I'm sheltered or Knoxville, TN is special but I've lived here for 35 years and I've been involved in our church for 30 years and I've never once heard anything remotely like that.

How many variations of this post do you suppose exist in this forum?

The hypocricy i am pointing out is that Christians are all one team when pointing out what they perceive as benefits of faith, yet when Christians act badly, it's some bad actors from some other congregation.
I feel like anyone can understand that thought.

I don't think Christians act anywhere near as badly as non Christians. Some times they do inappropriate things, yes. I have been a victim of Christians acting badly. They are not perfect either. No one said that they were. The purpose of the 10 Commandments is to show mankind that they are not perfect and cannot keep them perfectly. That is why God sent His Son Jesus into the World to live a perfect life and be our Sacrifice for our sins. Some Christians misinterpret the Bible and or use Christianity and the Bible to behave badly. Other times, they are defending themselves from evil men who would persecute them and then act like a victim when the Christian fights back. That is the most common thing that happens. Most Christians are peaceful and kind. I live in the North where there a lot of Secular, non believers and they are rude, arrogant and impersonal. It didn't used to be like this in the 1980s and before, but as it became less Christian, it became more and more Secular, Rude and Impersonal. When I go down to the Bible belt, I am amazed at how kind and personable the people there are who have a more Christian culture. Hence the phrase "Southern Hospitality". It reminds me of how it used to be in the North before it became Secular.

WOW, just, wow. Wouldn’t even know where to begin to respond to this.

The guy just championed Jerry Falwell a few posts up. Not sure why you're then surprised with his subsequent post.

Surprise is not really what I feel. “In awe” is a better description of how I feel, the lack of awareness when people make statements like this is awe inspiring.

Lack of awareness in what way? That he was a strong Christian, founded a good Christian University and help fight for Christian morality? Those are admirable traits. I am very aware, that's why I think he is a great man of God. Why is that offensive to you?

First to be clear, I’m in no way offended by your beliefs. You have full right to believe whatever you like. Secondly my statement wasn’t about Jerry, it’s the rest of your thoughts on the subject that inspired my awe.

The fact that he founded Liberty University and was head of the Moral Majority? Why?

Not to be rude but you’re proving my point about lack of awareness.

Unfortunately, you seem to be avoiding the point. I said nothing wrong. It's not a bad thing to stand up for Biblical Values that were always respected in this Country, even by non Christians since it's founding. The 10 Commandments are a good moral standard for any culture. It's only the last few decades that the culture has tried to paint them as somehow hateful or odd. So, are you going to tell me what is wrong with what I said or not?

 

[Captain Cranks]

Unfortunately, you seem to be avoiding the point. I said nothing wrong. It's not a bad thing to stand up for Biblical Values that were always respected in this Country, even by non Christians since it's founding. The 10 Commandments are a good moral standard for any culture. It's only the last few decades that the culture has tried to paint them as somehow hateful or odd. So, are you going to tell me what is wrong with what I said or not?

Nothing personal, but I don't think you're a great marketer for Christianity and the 'we're good, they're bad' attitude you described a few posts above doesn't seem very Christ-like.

 

[Scoresman]

I didn't think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure I fully understand you on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when you said you sure we could find more examples without looking too hard

I do think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure you fully understand me on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when I said I sure we could find more examples without looking too hard.

I find both halves of the statement to be self evident. One would otherwise believe Christians never generalize other people, or they take ownership of all the scammers/ criminals/atrocities committed in the name of spreading the good word.

Maybe I'm sheltered or Knoxville, TN is special but I've lived here for 35 years and I've been involved in our church for 30 years and I've never once heard anything remotely like that.

How many variations of this post do you suppose exist in this forum?

The hypocricy i am pointing out is that Christians are all one team when pointing out what they perceive as benefits of faith, yet when Christians act badly, it's some bad actors from some other congregation.
I feel like anyone can understand that thought.

I don't think Christians act anywhere near as badly as non Christians. Some times they do inappropriate things, yes. I have been a victim of Christians acting badly. They are not perfect either. No one said that they were. The purpose of the 10 Commandments is to show mankind that they are not perfect and cannot keep them perfectly. That is why God sent His Son Jesus into the World to live a perfect life and be our Sacrifice for our sins. Some Christians misinterpret the Bible and or use Christianity and the Bible to behave badly. Other times, they are defending themselves from evil men who would persecute them and then act like a victim when the Christian fights back. That is the most common thing that happens. Most Christians are peaceful and kind. I live in the North where there a lot of Secular, non believers and they are rude, arrogant and impersonal. It didn't used to be like this in the 1980s and before, but as it became less Christian, it became more and more Secular, Rude and Impersonal. When I go down to the Bible belt, I am amazed at how kind and personable the people there are who have a more Christian culture. Hence the phrase "Southern Hospitality". It reminds me of how it used to be in the North before it became Secular.

Hey look, he did mass raider’s homework for him.

 

[dkp993]

Unfortunately, you seem to be avoiding the point. I said nothing wrong. It's not a bad thing to stand up for Biblical Values that were always respected in this Country, even by non Christians since it's founding. The 10 Commandments are a good moral standard for any culture. It's only the last few decades that the culture has tried to paint them as somehow hateful or odd. So, are you going to tell me what is wrong with what I said or not?

Nothing personal, but I don't think you're a great marketer for Christianity and the 'we're good, they're bad' attitude you described a few posts above doesn't seem very Christ-like.

As I said, in awe.

 

[Paddington]

Unfortunately, you seem to be avoiding the point. I said nothing wrong. It's not a bad thing to stand up for Biblical Values that were always respected in this Country, even by non Christians since it's founding. The 10 Commandments are a good moral standard for any culture. It's only the last few decades that the culture has tried to paint them as somehow hateful or odd. So, are you going to tell me what is wrong with what I said or not?

Nothing personal, but I don't think you're a great marketer for Christianity and the 'we're good, they're bad' attitude you described a few posts above doesn't seem very Christ-like.

I never said "We're good, they're bad" I said that Christian morals, the 10 Commandments are good for any Society. Murder is bad. Lying is bad. Cheating on your spouse is bad. Envying what other people have to the point of Jealously is bad. Do you disagree with the 10 Commandments? Believing in these things doesn't mean that I look down on others. Is that how you see Christians?

 

[dkp993]

I never said "We're good, they're bad"

I don't think Christians act anywhere near as badly as non Christians.

Literally 90mins apart all while also proving the point I was making. Impressive, well done.

 

[Paddington]

I never said "We're good, they're bad"

I don't think Christians act anywhere near as badly as non Christians.

Literally 90mins apart all while also proving the point I was making. Impressive, well done.

Well, both are true. Christians aren't perfect and I am not looking down on non Christians, but I do see a lot of Christian haters who act really bad. That's a fact.

This began in response to your criticism of Christians:

"I do think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure you fully understand me on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when I said I sure we could find more examples without looking too hard.

I find both halves of the statement to be self evident. One would otherwise believe Christians never generalize other people, or they take ownership of all the scammers/ criminals/atrocities committed in the name of spreading the good word."

You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine.

 

[Zow]

I didn't think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure I fully understand you on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when you said you sure we could find more examples without looking too hard

I do think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure you fully understand me on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when I said I sure we could find more examples without looking too hard.

I find both halves of the statement to be self evident. One would otherwise believe Christians never generalize other people, or they take ownership of all the scammers/ criminals/atrocities committed in the name of spreading the good word.

Maybe I'm sheltered or Knoxville, TN is special but I've lived here for 35 years and I've been involved in our church for 30 years and I've never once heard anything remotely like that.

How many variations of this post do you suppose exist in this forum?

The hypocricy i am pointing out is that Christians are all one team when pointing out what they perceive as benefits of faith, yet when Christians act badly, it's some bad actors from some other congregation.
I feel like anyone can understand that thought.

I don't think Christians act anywhere near as badly as non Christians. Some times they do inappropriate things, yes. I have been a victim of Christians acting badly. They are not perfect either. No one said that they were. The purpose of the 10 Commandments is to show mankind that they are not perfect and cannot keep them perfectly. That is why God sent His Son Jesus into the World to live a perfect life and be our Sacrifice for our sins. Some Christians misinterpret the Bible and or use Christianity and the Bible to behave badly. Other times, they are defending themselves from evil men who would persecute them and then act like a victim when the Christian fights back. That is the most common thing that happens. Most Christians are peaceful and kind. I live in the North where there a lot of Secular, non believers and they are rude, arrogant and impersonal. It didn't used to be like this in the 1980s and before, but as it became less Christian, it became more and more Secular, Rude and Impersonal. When I go down to the Bible belt, I am amazed at how kind and personable the people there are who have a more Christian culture. Hence the phrase "Southern Hospitality". It reminds me of how it used to be in the North before it became Secular.

WOW, just, wow. Wouldn’t even know where to begin to respond to this.

The guy just championed Jerry Falwell a few posts up. Not sure why you're then surprised with his subsequent post.

Jerry Falwell was a great man. He founded Liberty University and was head of the Moral Majority. Nothing wrong with that.

Ugh, given the reported reason that Falwell resigned from his position with Liberty, you just put the bold on a tee for a really funny joke that Joe would probably not approve of so I'll decline to make it. Though this decision is not with disappointment.

Look, in my opinion the world is a slightly worse place because of Falwell. Putting aside the moral righteousness and his crusade against individual liberties, my professional interactions with graduates from his university have led me to conclude that he created a poor institution for generating positive professionals. You obviously will disagree and disregard my opinion because I'm not follow G/god whereas Falwell is. This exercise seems futile and I'd rather not clutter this thread with this when there is other meaningful conversation to be had.

 

[dkp993]

You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine.

You have full right to believe whatever you like

As I literally said an hour ago.

 

[Paddington]

I didn't think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure I fully understand you on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when you said you sure we could find more examples without looking too hard

I do think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure you fully understand me on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when I said I sure we could find more examples without looking too hard.

I find both halves of the statement to be self evident. One would otherwise believe Christians never generalize other people, or they take ownership of all the scammers/ criminals/atrocities committed in the name of spreading the good word.

Maybe I'm sheltered or Knoxville, TN is special but I've lived here for 35 years and I've been involved in our church for 30 years and I've never once heard anything remotely like that.

How many variations of this post do you suppose exist in this forum?

The hypocricy i am pointing out is that Christians are all one team when pointing out what they perceive as benefits of faith, yet when Christians act badly, it's some bad actors from some other congregation.
I feel like anyone can understand that thought.

I don't think Christians act anywhere near as badly as non Christians. Some times they do inappropriate things, yes. I have been a victim of Christians acting badly. They are not perfect either. No one said that they were. The purpose of the 10 Commandments is to show mankind that they are not perfect and cannot keep them perfectly. That is why God sent His Son Jesus into the World to live a perfect life and be our Sacrifice for our sins. Some Christians misinterpret the Bible and or use Christianity and the Bible to behave badly. Other times, they are defending themselves from evil men who would persecute them and then act like a victim when the Christian fights back. That is the most common thing that happens. Most Christians are peaceful and kind. I live in the North where there a lot of Secular, non believers and they are rude, arrogant and impersonal. It didn't used to be like this in the 1980s and before, but as it became less Christian, it became more and more Secular, Rude and Impersonal. When I go down to the Bible belt, I am amazed at how kind and personable the people there are who have a more Christian culture. Hence the phrase "Southern Hospitality". It reminds me of how it used to be in the North before it became Secular.

WOW, just, wow. Wouldn’t even know where to begin to respond to this.

The guy just championed Jerry Falwell a few posts up. Not sure why you're then surprised with his subsequent post.

Jerry Falwell was a great man. He founded Liberty University and was head of the Moral Majority. Nothing wrong with that.

Ugh, given the reported reason that Falwell resigned from his position with Liberty, you just put the bold on a tee for a really funny joke that Joe would probably not approve of so I'll decline to make it. Though this decision is not with disappointment.

Look, in my opinion the world is a slightly worse place because of Falwell. Putting aside the moral righteousness and his crusade against individual liberties, my professional interactions with graduates from his university have led me to conclude that he created a poor institution for generating positive professionals. You obviously will disagree and disregard my opinion because I'm not follow G/god whereas Falwell is. This exercise seems futile and I'd rather not clutter this thread with this when there is other meaningful conversation to be had.

I believe that Jerry Falwell resigned for health reasons. It was his Son, Jerry Falwell Jr. that resigned because of an alleged sex scandal. Not sure of the facts on what happened there, if true, i won't defend it other than to say that Christians are held to a higher standard. We aren't going to agree on Jerry Falwell's impact on the world. Agree to disagree.

 

[Dan Lambskin]

Unfortunately, you seem to be avoiding the point. I said nothing wrong. It's not a bad thing to stand up for Biblical Values that were always respected in this Country, even by non Christians since it's founding. The 10 Commandments are a good moral standard for any culture. It's only the last few decades that the culture has tried to paint them as somehow hateful or odd. So, are you going to tell me what is wrong with what I said or not?

Nothing personal, but I don't think you're a great marketer for Christianity and the 'we're good, they're bad' attitude you described a few posts above doesn't seem very Christ-like.

I never said "We're good, they're bad" I said that Christian morals, the 10 Commandments are good for any Society. Murder is bad. Lying is bad. Cheating on your spouse is bad. Envying what other people have to the point of Jealously is bad. Do you disagree with the 10 Commandments? Believing in these things doesn't mean that I look down on others. Is that how you see Christians?

You really only need 5-10 IMO

Also maybe they could add one in for rape and diddling kids too

 

[Zow]

I didn't think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure I fully understand you on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when you said you sure we could find more examples without looking too hard

I do think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure you fully understand me on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when I said I sure we could find more examples without looking too hard.

I find both halves of the statement to be self evident. One would otherwise believe Christians never generalize other people, or they take ownership of all the scammers/ criminals/atrocities committed in the name of spreading the good word.

Maybe I'm sheltered or Knoxville, TN is special but I've lived here for 35 years and I've been involved in our church for 30 years and I've never once heard anything remotely like that.

How many variations of this post do you suppose exist in this forum?

The hypocricy i am pointing out is that Christians are all one team when pointing out what they perceive as benefits of faith, yet when Christians act badly, it's some bad actors from some other congregation.
I feel like anyone can understand that thought.

I don't think Christians act anywhere near as badly as non Christians. Some times they do inappropriate things, yes. I have been a victim of Christians acting badly. They are not perfect either. No one said that they were. The purpose of the 10 Commandments is to show mankind that they are not perfect and cannot keep them perfectly. That is why God sent His Son Jesus into the World to live a perfect life and be our Sacrifice for our sins. Some Christians misinterpret the Bible and or use Christianity and the Bible to behave badly. Other times, they are defending themselves from evil men who would persecute them and then act like a victim when the Christian fights back. That is the most common thing that happens. Most Christians are peaceful and kind. I live in the North where there a lot of Secular, non believers and they are rude, arrogant and impersonal. It didn't used to be like this in the 1980s and before, but as it became less Christian, it became more and more Secular, Rude and Impersonal. When I go down to the Bible belt, I am amazed at how kind and personable the people there are who have a more Christian culture. Hence the phrase "Southern Hospitality". It reminds me of how it used to be in the North before it became Secular.

WOW, just, wow. Wouldn’t even know where to begin to respond to this.

The guy just championed Jerry Falwell a few posts up. Not sure why you're then surprised with his subsequent post.

Jerry Falwell was a great man. He founded Liberty University and was head of the Moral Majority. Nothing wrong with that.

Ugh, given the reported reason that Falwell resigned from his position with Liberty, you just put the bold on a tee for a really funny joke that Joe would probably not approve of so I'll decline to make it. Though this decision is not with disappointment.

Look, in my opinion the world is a slightly worse place because of Falwell. Putting aside the moral righteousness and his crusade against individual liberties, my professional interactions with graduates from his university have led me to conclude that he created a poor institution for generating positive professionals. You obviously will disagree and disregard my opinion because I'm not follow G/god whereas Falwell is. This exercise seems futile and I'd rather not clutter this thread with this when there is other meaningful conversation to be had.

I believe that Jerry Falwell resigned for health reasons. It was his Son, Jerry Falwell Jr. that resigned because of an alleged sex scandal. Not sure of the facts on what happened there, if true, i won't defend it other than to say that Christians are held to a higher standard. We aren't going to agree on Jerry Falwell's impact on the world. Agree to disagree.

Ah, you're correct that it was the son. My apologies and I stand corrected.

 

[Paddington]

Unfortunately, you seem to be avoiding the point. I said nothing wrong. It's not a bad thing to stand up for Biblical Values that were always respected in this Country, even by non Christians since it's founding. The 10 Commandments are a good moral standard for any culture. It's only the last few decades that the culture has tried to paint them as somehow hateful or odd. So, are you going to tell me what is wrong with what I said or not?

Nothing personal, but I don't think you're a great marketer for Christianity and the 'we're good, they're bad' attitude you described a few posts above doesn't seem very Christ-like.

I never said "We're good, they're bad" I said that Christian morals, the 10 Commandments are good for any Society. Murder is bad. Lying is bad. Cheating on your spouse is bad. Envying what other people have to the point of Jealously is bad. Do you disagree with the 10 Commandments? Believing in these things doesn't mean that I look down on others. Is that how you see Christians?

You really only need 5-10 IMO

Also maybe they could add one in for rape and diddling kids too

You believe that I should spend 5-10 years in prison for disagreeing? And you are accusing me of raping kids? Hmm

 

[Paddington]

I didn't think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure I fully understand you on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when you said you sure we could find more examples without looking too hard

I do think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure you fully understand me on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when I said I sure we could find more examples without looking too hard.

I find both halves of the statement to be self evident. One would otherwise believe Christians never generalize other people, or they take ownership of all the scammers/ criminals/atrocities committed in the name of spreading the good word.

Maybe I'm sheltered or Knoxville, TN is special but I've lived here for 35 years and I've been involved in our church for 30 years and I've never once heard anything remotely like that.

How many variations of this post do you suppose exist in this forum?

The hypocricy i am pointing out is that Christians are all one team when pointing out what they perceive as benefits of faith, yet when Christians act badly, it's some bad actors from some other congregation.
I feel like anyone can understand that thought.

I don't think Christians act anywhere near as badly as non Christians. Some times they do inappropriate things, yes. I have been a victim of Christians acting badly. They are not perfect either. No one said that they were. The purpose of the 10 Commandments is to show mankind that they are not perfect and cannot keep them perfectly. That is why God sent His Son Jesus into the World to live a perfect life and be our Sacrifice for our sins. Some Christians misinterpret the Bible and or use Christianity and the Bible to behave badly. Other times, they are defending themselves from evil men who would persecute them and then act like a victim when the Christian fights back. That is the most common thing that happens. Most Christians are peaceful and kind. I live in the North where there a lot of Secular, non believers and they are rude, arrogant and impersonal. It didn't used to be like this in the 1980s and before, but as it became less Christian, it became more and more Secular, Rude and Impersonal. When I go down to the Bible belt, I am amazed at how kind and personable the people there are who have a more Christian culture. Hence the phrase "Southern Hospitality". It reminds me of how it used to be in the North before it became Secular.

WOW, just, wow. Wouldn’t even know where to begin to respond to this.

The guy just championed Jerry Falwell a few posts up. Not sure why you're then surprised with his subsequent post.

Jerry Falwell was a great man. He founded Liberty University and was head of the Moral Majority. Nothing wrong with that.

Ugh, given the reported reason that Falwell resigned from his position with Liberty, you just put the bold on a tee for a really funny joke that Joe would probably not approve of so I'll decline to make it. Though this decision is not with disappointment.

Look, in my opinion the world is a slightly worse place because of Falwell. Putting aside the moral righteousness and his crusade against individual liberties, my professional interactions with graduates from his university have led me to conclude that he created a poor institution for generating positive professionals. You obviously will disagree and disregard my opinion because I'm not follow G/god whereas Falwell is. This exercise seems futile and I'd rather not clutter this thread with this when there is other meaningful conversation to be had.

I believe that Jerry Falwell resigned for health reasons. It was his Son, Jerry Falwell Jr. that resigned because of an alleged sex scandal. Not sure of the facts on what happened there, if true, i won't defend it other than to say that Christians are held to a higher standard. We aren't going to agree on Jerry Falwell's impact on the world. Agree to disagree.

Ah, you're correct that it was the son. My apologies and I stand corrected.

Thank you, I appreciate your honesty.

 

[Zow]

Unfortunately, you seem to be avoiding the point. I said nothing wrong. It's not a bad thing to stand up for Biblical Values that were always respected in this Country, even by non Christians since it's founding. The 10 Commandments are a good moral standard for any culture. It's only the last few decades that the culture has tried to paint them as somehow hateful or odd. So, are you going to tell me what is wrong with what I said or not?

Nothing personal, but I don't think you're a great marketer for Christianity and the 'we're good, they're bad' attitude you described a few posts above doesn't seem very Christ-like.

I never said "We're good, they're bad" I said that Christian morals, the 10 Commandments are good for any Society. Murder is bad. Lying is bad. Cheating on your spouse is bad. Envying what other people have to the point of Jealously is bad. Do you disagree with the 10 Commandments? Believing in these things doesn't mean that I look down on others. Is that how you see Christians?

You really only need 5-10 IMO

Also maybe they could add one in for rape and diddling kids too

You believe that I should spend 5-10 years in prison for disagreeing? And you are accusing me of raping kids? Hmm

No, he's saying that Commandments 1-4 (the ones focused on G/god's demand that we basically worship only H/him) have no practical implications on everyday life whereas commandments 5-10 are good ones for anybody to live by regardless of the threat of any deity which may or may not exist.

He's also suggesting that "don't rape kids" should be added though I personally think 7 and 10 already cover that.

 

[Dan Lambskin]

Unfortunately, you seem to be avoiding the point. I said nothing wrong. It's not a bad thing to stand up for Biblical Values that were always respected in this Country, even by non Christians since it's founding. The 10 Commandments are a good moral standard for any culture. It's only the last few decades that the culture has tried to paint them as somehow hateful or odd. So, are you going to tell me what is wrong with what I said or not?

Nothing personal, but I don't think you're a great marketer for Christianity and the 'we're good, they're bad' attitude you described a few posts above doesn't seem very Christ-like.

I never said "We're good, they're bad" I said that Christian morals, the 10 Commandments are good for any Society. Murder is bad. Lying is bad. Cheating on your spouse is bad. Envying what other people have to the point of Jealously is bad. Do you disagree with the 10 Commandments? Believing in these things doesn't mean that I look down on others. Is that how you see Christians?

You really only need 5-10 IMO

Also maybe they could add one in for rape and diddling kids too

You believe that I should spend 5-10 years in prison for disagreeing? And you are accusing me of raping kids? Hmm

Just saying there’s some pretty glaring omissions and some unnecessary commandments. The list could use a little updating

 

[Scoresman]

Unfortunately, you seem to be avoiding the point. I said nothing wrong. It's not a bad thing to stand up for Biblical Values that were always respected in this Country, even by non Christians since it's founding. The 10 Commandments are a good moral standard for any culture. It's only the last few decades that the culture has tried to paint them as somehow hateful or odd. So, are you going to tell me what is wrong with what I said or not?

Nothing personal, but I don't think you're a great marketer for Christianity and the 'we're good, they're bad' attitude you described a few posts above doesn't seem very Christ-like.

I never said "We're good, they're bad" I said that Christian morals, the 10 Commandments are good for any Society. Murder is bad. Lying is bad. Cheating on your spouse is bad. Envying what other people have to the point of Jealously is bad. Do you disagree with the 10 Commandments? Believing in these things doesn't mean that I look down on others. Is that how you see Christians?

You really only need 5-10 IMO

Also maybe they could add one in for rape and diddling kids too

Don’t forget there were 15 originally.

- YouTube

Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.

youtu.be

 

[BlackCrowes]

Unfortunately, you seem to be avoiding the point. I said nothing wrong. It's not a bad thing to stand up for Biblical Values that were always respected in this Country, even by non Christians since it's founding. The 10 Commandments are a good moral standard for any culture. It's only the last few decades that the culture has tried to paint them as somehow hateful or odd. So, are you going to tell me what is wrong with what I said or not?

Nothing personal, but I don't think you're a great marketer for Christianity and the 'we're good, they're bad' attitude you described a few posts above doesn't seem very Christ-like.

I never said "We're good, they're bad" I said that Christian morals, the 10 Commandments are good for any Society. Murder is bad. Lying is bad. Cheating on your spouse is bad. Envying what other people have to the point of Jealously is bad. Do you disagree with the 10 Commandments? Believing in these things doesn't mean that I look down on others. Is that how you see Christians?

You really only need 5-10 IMO

Also maybe they could add one in for rape and diddling kids too

You believe that I should spend 5-10 years in prison for disagreeing? And you are accusing me of raping kids? Hmm

Just saying there’s some pretty glaring omissions and some unnecessary commandments. The list could use a little updating

Bovine envy was big back then

 

[-fish-]

As I've become older, I think it's a good practice to not generalize "the other" side. People are individuals.

But also I think it's wise to accept one will be generalized. Especially for negative things. It's human nature and it happens.

I could spend a lot of time being defensive when someone says "the vast majority of believers" don't model Jesus. The reality is the person who said this obviously thinks this for a reason. So instead of being defensive, I can acknowledge "my side" has failed there and move toward how we can do better.

To me, it's how good faith discussion assuming the best of those involved works.

Joe, I have a lot of respect for you, but you literally gave me a time out a couple years back for posting a link to a picture of Joel Osteen's mansion as an example of this. Does he model Jesus with a 10 million dollar estate? I left the church for several reasons. The main two were the hypocrisy of leaders of churches getting rich and the way that women were treated. I didn't want my daughter being raised in an environment where she was devalued and expected to defer to men.

You have always struck me as someone that helps others and tries to apply the values you believe in. In my experience, you don't represent the majority. I'm sorry if that's insulting.

 

[Paddington]

As I've become older, I think it's a good practice to not generalize "the other" side. People are individuals.

But also I think it's wise to accept one will be generalized. Especially for negative things. It's human nature and it happens.

I could spend a lot of time being defensive when someone says "the vast majority of believers" don't model Jesus. The reality is the person who said this obviously thinks this for a reason. So instead of being defensive, I can acknowledge "my side" has failed there and move toward how we can do better.

To me, it's how good faith discussion assuming the best of those involved works.

Joe, I have a lot of respect for you, but you literally gave me a time out a couple years back for posting a link to a picture of Joel Osteen's mansion as an example of this. Does he model Jesus with a 10 million dollar estate? I left the church for several reasons. The main two were the hypocrisy of leaders of churches getting rich and the way that women were treated. I didn't want my daughter being raised in an environment where she was devalued and expected to defer to men.

You have always struck me as someone that helps others and tries to apply the values you believe in. In my experience, you don't represent the majority. I'm sorry if that's insulting.

Joel Osteen is wrong if his riches came from the Church. Sometimes a Pastor will have money before they go into the Ministry and people falsely accuse them of getting rich off of the people. Not sure how Osteen got his money. I do believe that he claimed a lot of it came from selling books, which I don't have a problem with. I don't believe that a Pastor should take a salary higher than the average of his membership. Or if he does, it shouldn't be some crazy high amount. I left the Church for 12 years because of Legalistic, rude and arrogant Leaders. I never stopped being a believer. But during that time in my 20s, God made me completely miserable. He taught that He wants me in Church, even with their flaws. Believers in Christ are not supposed to forsake the Assembly of ourselves together according to Paul. As far as women being treated badly, some Churches may, but most don't. God does have rules of the order in the Church and Home. God created us with different roles, but that doesn't mean that Men are any better than Women. Most Churches value their women very highly. Not sure what type of Church you went to.

When I went back to Church, I had a deep experience with God that changed my life. At that moment, I realized that everything I had ever believed was true and that God really was real. He knew everything I had ever done. We don't to Church for the people, we go to Church for God and to serve Him.

 

[-fish-]

As I've become older, I think it's a good practice to not generalize "the other" side. People are individuals.

But also I think it's wise to accept one will be generalized. Especially for negative things. It's human nature and it happens.

I could spend a lot of time being defensive when someone says "the vast majority of believers" don't model Jesus. The reality is the person who said this obviously thinks this for a reason. So instead of being defensive, I can acknowledge "my side" has failed there and move toward how we can do better.

To me, it's how good faith discussion assuming the best of those involved works.

Joe, I have a lot of respect for you, but you literally gave me a time out a couple years back for posting a link to a picture of Joel Osteen's mansion as an example of this. Does he model Jesus with a 10 million dollar estate? I left the church for several reasons. The main two were the hypocrisy of leaders of churches getting rich and the way that women were treated. I didn't want my daughter being raised in an environment where she was devalued and expected to defer to men.

You have always struck me as someone that helps others and tries to apply the values you believe in. In my experience, you don't represent the majority. I'm sorry if that's insulting.

Joel Osteen is wrong if his riches came from the Church. Sometimes a Pastor will have money before they go into the Ministry and people falsely accuse them of getting rich off of the people. Not sure how Osteen got his money. I do believe that he claimed a lot of it came from selling books, which I don't have a problem with. I don't believe that a Pastor should take a salary higher than the average of his membership. Or if he does, it shouldn't be some crazy high amount. I left the Church for 12 years because of Legalistic, rude and arrogant Leaders. I never stopped being a believer. But during that time in my 20s, God made me completely miserable. He taught that He wants me in Church, even with their flaws. Believers in Christ are not supposed to forsake the Assembly of ourselves together according to Paul. As far as women being treated badly, some Churches may, but most don't. God does have rules of the order in the Church and Home. God created us with different roles, but that doesn't mean that Men are any better than Women. Most Churches value their women very highly. Not sure what type of Church you went to.

When I went back to Church, I had a deep experience with God that changed my life. At that moment, I realized that everything I had ever believed was true and that God really was real. He knew everything I had ever done. We don't to Church for the people, we go to Church for God and to serve Him.

huh. the church that I read about in the bible is based entirely on the people.

 

[Joe Bryant]

The hypocricy i am pointing out is that Christians are all one team when pointing out what they perceive as benefits of faith, yet when Christians act badly, it's some bad actors from some other congregation.

I'm sorry but I just don't see much of that here.

In this thread even I was clear that we own the negatives.

@Navin Johnson asked a very fair question:

So what does it say when those symptoms are absent, IME, across the vast majority of believers?

And I answered I think fairly:

It says we Christians aren't doing a great job of following what Jesus told us to do.

That's an issue with us as a whole and also individually.

When someone sees something that I'm not seeing in my circles, I think it's okay to say so. That seems only honest. But it doesn't absolve the blame for what the other person saw. As I said, I'm sorry @New Binky the Doormat had that experience with his child at school. And I'm glad I haven't seen that in my community. But that doesn't mean it's a bad actor from "some other congregation" or that it wasn't a problem. Of course it could also mean it does happen in my community and I haven't seen it. Either way, it obviously left a very negative impression and that's a problem.

That's part of why it bums me out to see anyone claiming to represent Christ act poorly. Because it's human nature that it will reflect on everyone in that group.

With all that said, we Christians are certainly guilty of hypocrisy. I'm guilty of hypocrisy. I, like I'm sure everyone here does, try to avoid it and be consistent. But I'm not always successful there.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I didn't think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure I fully understand you on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when you said you sure we could find more examples without looking too hard

I do think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure you fully understand me on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when I said I sure we could find more examples without looking too hard.

I find both halves of the statement to be self evident. One would otherwise believe Christians never generalize other people, or they take ownership of all the scammers/ criminals/atrocities committed in the name of spreading the good word.

Maybe I'm sheltered or Knoxville, TN is special but I've lived here for 35 years and I've been involved in our church for 30 years and I've never once heard anything remotely like that.

How many variations of this post do you suppose exist in this forum?

The hypocricy i am pointing out is that Christians are all one team when pointing out what they perceive as benefits of faith, yet when Christians act badly, it's some bad actors from some other congregation.
I feel like anyone can understand that thought.

I don't think Christians act anywhere near as badly as non Christians. Some times they do inappropriate things, yes. I have been a victim of Christians acting badly. They are not perfect either. No one said that they were. The purpose of the 10 Commandments is to show mankind that they are not perfect and cannot keep them perfectly. That is why God sent His Son Jesus into the World to live a perfect life and be our Sacrifice for our sins. Some Christians misinterpret the Bible and or use Christianity and the Bible to behave badly. Other times, they are defending themselves from evil men who would persecute them and then act like a victim when the Christian fights back. That is the most common thing that happens. Most Christians are peaceful and kind. I live in the North where there a lot of Secular, non believers and they are rude, arrogant and impersonal. It didn't used to be like this in the 1980s and before, but as it became less Christian, it became more and more Secular, Rude and Impersonal. When I go down to the Bible belt, I am amazed at how kind and personable the people there are who have a more Christian culture. Hence the phrase "Southern Hospitality". It reminds me of how it used to be in the North before it became Secular.

I don't agree with this generalization at all.

I don't put any thought into lumping people into groups and trying to judge which general groups acts more badly than another.

 

[Joe Bryant]

As I've become older, I think it's a good practice to not generalize "the other" side. People are individuals.

But also I think it's wise to accept one will be generalized. Especially for negative things. It's human nature and it happens.

I could spend a lot of time being defensive when someone says "the vast majority of believers" don't model Jesus. The reality is the person who said this obviously thinks this for a reason. So instead of being defensive, I can acknowledge "my side" has failed there and move toward how we can do better.

To me, it's how good faith discussion assuming the best of those involved works.

Joe, I have a lot of respect for you, but you literally gave me a time out a couple years back for posting a link to a picture of Joel Osteen's mansion as an example of this. Does he model Jesus with a 10 million dollar estate? I left the church for several reasons. The main two were the hypocrisy of leaders of churches getting rich and the way that women were treated. I didn't want my daughter being raised in an environment where she was devalued and expected to defer to men.

You have always struck me as someone that helps others and tries to apply the values you believe in. In my experience, you don't represent the majority. I'm sorry if that's insulting.

Thank you @-fish- . That's kind. I have a lot of respect for you as well.

And I hope the Moderators didn't give you a suspension for just posting a link to a picture of Osteens house. There's nothing wrong with posting a link to that. https://www.gigwise.com/joel-osteens-luxurious-10-5-million-mansion/ If there was a suspension for just a link to the house, I apologize.

Christians and how they have and spend money is an important topic for sure. I have some nice things and I struggle with this too. The "big picture" view is we're called to be "good stewards" of the things we feel God's given us. That could be a whole thread.

As far as being someone "that helps others and tries to apply the values you believe in.", thank you. I take that as a valued compliment. And you also likely overestimate me there. But thank you.

For the thought of, "In my experience, you don't represent the majority. I'm sorry if that's insulting.", that's not insulting at all. That's your experience. And that's not a good thing for us as Christians that we've given you reason to think that. We need to be better.

I'd also posit the idea that just because Jesus' followers aren't doing a great job following, it doesn't necessarily mean Jesus isn't worth following. I have to wonder sometimes if Jesus doesn't regularly see some of the stuff we do and does the Jonah Hill face palm.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I didn't think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure I fully understand you on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when you said you sure we could find more examples without looking too hard

I do think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure you fully understand me on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when I said I sure we could find more examples without looking too hard.

I find both halves of the statement to be self evident. One would otherwise believe Christians never generalize other people, or they take ownership of all the scammers/ criminals/atrocities committed in the name of spreading the good word.

Maybe I'm sheltered or Knoxville, TN is special but I've lived here for 35 years and I've been involved in our church for 30 years and I've never once heard anything remotely like that.

How many variations of this post do you suppose exist in this forum?

The hypocricy i am pointing out is that Christians are all one team when pointing out what they perceive as benefits of faith, yet when Christians act badly, it's some bad actors from some other congregation.
I feel like anyone can understand that thought.

I don't think Christians act anywhere near as badly as non Christians. Some times they do inappropriate things, yes. I have been a victim of Christians acting badly. They are not perfect either. No one said that they were. The purpose of the 10 Commandments is to show mankind that they are not perfect and cannot keep them perfectly. That is why God sent His Son Jesus into the World to live a perfect life and be our Sacrifice for our sins. Some Christians misinterpret the Bible and or use Christianity and the Bible to behave badly. Other times, they are defending themselves from evil men who would persecute them and then act like a victim when the Christian fights back. That is the most common thing that happens. Most Christians are peaceful and kind. I live in the North where there a lot of Secular, non believers and they are rude, arrogant and impersonal. It didn't used to be like this in the 1980s and before, but as it became less Christian, it became more and more Secular, Rude and Impersonal. When I go down to the Bible belt, I am amazed at how kind and personable the people there are who have a more Christian culture. Hence the phrase "Southern Hospitality". It reminds me of how it used to be in the North before it became Secular.

Read this post again and see if you can't understand why it comes across as "we're better than them." You're talking about folks who struggle with the same spiritual issues that we do and are just are (un)deserving of salvation as the rest of us.

 

[Paddington]

Unfortunately, you seem to be avoiding the point. I said nothing wrong. It's not a bad thing to stand up for Biblical Values that were always respected in this Country, even by non Christians since it's founding. The 10 Commandments are a good moral standard for any culture. It's only the last few decades that the culture has tried to paint them as somehow hateful or odd. So, are you going to tell me what is wrong with what I said or not?

Nothing personal, but I don't think you're a great marketer for Christianity and the 'we're good, they're bad' attitude you described a few posts above doesn't seem very Christ-like.

I never said "We're good, they're bad" I said that Christian morals, the 10 Commandments are good for any Society. Murder is bad. Lying is bad. Cheating on your spouse is bad. Envying what other people have to the point of Jealously is bad. Do you disagree with the 10 Commandments? Believing in these things doesn't mean that I look down on others. Is that how you see Christians?

You really only need 5-10 IMO

Also maybe they could add one in for rape and diddling kids too

You believe that I should spend 5-10 years in prison for disagreeing? And you are accusing me of raping kids? Hmm

No, he's saying that Commandments 1-4 (the ones focused on G/god's demand that we basically worship only H/him) have no practical implications on everyday life whereas commandments 5-10 are good ones for anybody to live by regardless of the threat of any deity which may or may not exist.

He's also suggesting that "don't rape kids" should be added though I personally think 7 and 10 already cover that.

As I've become older, I think it's a good practice to not generalize "the other" side. People are individuals.

But also I think it's wise to accept one will be generalized. Especially for negative things. It's human nature and it happens.

I could spend a lot of time being defensive when someone says "the vast majority of believers" don't model Jesus. The reality is the person who said this obviously thinks this for a reason. So instead of being defensive, I can acknowledge "my side" has failed there and move toward how we can do better.

To me, it's how good faith discussion assuming the best of those involved works.

Joe, I have a lot of respect for you, but you literally gave me a time out a couple years back for posting a link to a picture of Joel Osteen's mansion as an example of this. Does he model Jesus with a 10 million dollar estate? I left the church for several reasons. The main two were the hypocrisy of leaders of churches getting rich and the way that women were treated. I didn't want my daughter being raised in an environment where she was devalued and expected to defer to men.

You have always struck me as someone that helps others and tries to apply the values you believe in. In my experience, you don't represent the majority. I'm sorry if that's insulting.

Joel Osteen is wrong if his riches came from the Church. Sometimes a Pastor will have money before they go into the Ministry and people falsely accuse them of getting rich off of the people. Not sure how Osteen got his money. I do believe that he claimed a lot of it came from selling books, which I don't have a problem with. I don't believe that a Pastor should take a salary higher than the average of his membership. Or if he does, it shouldn't be some crazy high amount. I left the Church for 12 years because of Legalistic, rude and arrogant Leaders. I never stopped being a believer. But during that time in my 20s, God made me completely miserable. He taught that He wants me in Church, even with their flaws. Believers in Christ are not supposed to forsake the Assembly of ourselves together according to Paul. As far as women being treated badly, some Churches may, but most don't. God does have rules of the order in the Church and Home. God created us with different roles, but that doesn't mean that Men are any better than Women. Most Churches value their women very highly. Not sure what type of Church you went to.

When I went back to Church, I had a deep experience with God that changed my life. At that moment, I realized that everything I had ever believed was true and that God really was real. He knew everything I had ever done. We don't to Church for the people, we go to Church for God and to serve Him.

huh. the church that I read about in the bible is based entirely on the people.

Yes, the true Church is made up of True believers in Jesus Christ who place their faith in Him for Salvation and believe that He died on the cross and rose from the dead, shedding His blood as a Sacrifice for their sins. That is true. But in an earthly sense, we don't know who is a true believer and who is not. A Church in an earthy sense is a Congregation of believers, such as Joel Osteen's Church. Whether you accept his Church as a Genuine Church of God or not is another story. Some people don't accept his Church as a Genuine Church because they believe that he preaches false Doctrine, not aligned with Scripture. Remember that the Bible is the Inspired Word of God and what Christians view as the Final Authority on what's true or not.

 

[Paddington]

I didn't think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure I fully understand you on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when you said you sure we could find more examples without looking too hard

I do think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure you fully understand me on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when I said I sure we could find more examples without looking too hard.

I find both halves of the statement to be self evident. One would otherwise believe Christians never generalize other people, or they take ownership of all the scammers/ criminals/atrocities committed in the name of spreading the good word.

Maybe I'm sheltered or Knoxville, TN is special but I've lived here for 35 years and I've been involved in our church for 30 years and I've never once heard anything remotely like that.

How many variations of this post do you suppose exist in this forum?

The hypocricy i am pointing out is that Christians are all one team when pointing out what they perceive as benefits of faith, yet when Christians act badly, it's some bad actors from some other congregation.
I feel like anyone can understand that thought.

I don't think Christians act anywhere near as badly as non Christians. Some times they do inappropriate things, yes. I have been a victim of Christians acting badly. They are not perfect either. No one said that they were. The purpose of the 10 Commandments is to show mankind that they are not perfect and cannot keep them perfectly. That is why God sent His Son Jesus into the World to live a perfect life and be our Sacrifice for our sins. Some Christians misinterpret the Bible and or use Christianity and the Bible to behave badly. Other times, they are defending themselves from evil men who would persecute them and then act like a victim when the Christian fights back. That is the most common thing that happens. Most Christians are peaceful and kind. I live in the North where there a lot of Secular, non believers and they are rude, arrogant and impersonal. It didn't used to be like this in the 1980s and before, but as it became less Christian, it became more and more Secular, Rude and Impersonal. When I go down to the Bible belt, I am amazed at how kind and personable the people there are who have a more Christian culture. Hence the phrase "Southern Hospitality". It reminds me of how it used to be in the North before it became Secular.

I don't agree with this generalization at all.

I don't put any thought into lumping people into groups and trying to judge which general groups acts more badly than another.

I am not allowed to give examples because it violates the rules here. Last time I said a word and was banned for a month, even though that word isn't necessarily a Political word. So, under the current rules of the Forum, I cannot fully make my point. I do believe that certain groups do have generalized tendencies, but I don't believe it's fair to make blanket statements and claim that all of the people from any group have those characteristics.

 

[Paddington]

I didn't think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure I fully understand you on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when you said you sure we could find more examples without looking too hard

I do think it would be a "home work assignment" to ask for some of the examples to make sure you fully understand me on who is taking comfort here in grouping all non-believers together, while simultaneously picking and choosing which of the historical actions of Christianity one takes ownership of. Especially when I said I sure we could find more examples without looking too hard.

I find both halves of the statement to be self evident. One would otherwise believe Christians never generalize other people, or they take ownership of all the scammers/ criminals/atrocities committed in the name of spreading the good word.

Maybe I'm sheltered or Knoxville, TN is special but I've lived here for 35 years and I've been involved in our church for 30 years and I've never once heard anything remotely like that.

How many variations of this post do you suppose exist in this forum?

The hypocricy i am pointing out is that Christians are all one team when pointing out what they perceive as benefits of faith, yet when Christians act badly, it's some bad actors from some other congregation.
I feel like anyone can understand that thought.

I don't think Christians act anywhere near as badly as non Christians. Some times they do inappropriate things, yes. I have been a victim of Christians acting badly. They are not perfect either. No one said that they were. The purpose of the 10 Commandments is to show mankind that they are not perfect and cannot keep them perfectly. That is why God sent His Son Jesus into the World to live a perfect life and be our Sacrifice for our sins. Some Christians misinterpret the Bible and or use Christianity and the Bible to behave badly. Other times, they are defending themselves from evil men who would persecute them and then act like a victim when the Christian fights back. That is the most common thing that happens. Most Christians are peaceful and kind. I live in the North where there a lot of Secular, non believers and they are rude, arrogant and impersonal. It didn't used to be like this in the 1980s and before, but as it became less Christian, it became more and more Secular, Rude and Impersonal. When I go down to the Bible belt, I am amazed at how kind and personable the people there are who have a more Christian culture. Hence the phrase "Southern Hospitality". It reminds me of how it used to be in the North before it became Secular.

Read this post again and see if you can't understand why it comes across as "we're better than them." You're talking about folks who struggle with the same spiritual issues that we do and are just are (un)deserving of salvation as the rest of us.

It comes across as my saying that I do believe that Christians ACT better, but that doesn't mean that Christians ARE better then them. I believe that when a person believes that they have to answer to God for their actions, they tend to act better as a result. I don't believe that means Christians are better than anyone else. True, we are all sinners and none of us deserve Salvation. It is by the grace of God that anyone is Saved and my hope and prayer is for everyone I know and everyone here to come to know Jesus Christ and His great Salvation.

 

[Paddington]

I am not allowed to give examples because it violates the rules here. Last time I said a word and was banned for a month, even though that word isn't necessarily a Political word. So, under the current rules of the Forum, I cannot fully make my point. I do believe that certain groups do have generalized tendencies, but I don't believe it's fair to make blanket statements and claim that all of the people from any group have those characteristics.

so you believe there are "some good ones" out there huh? ...Archie Bunker take

Well, yes there are "Good people" that are non Christians, but we are ALL sinners. None of us can get to heaven without Jesus because we are not perfect.

 

[Zow]

I am not allowed to give examples because it violates the rules here. Last time I said a word and was banned for a month, even though that word isn't necessarily a Political word. So, under the current rules of the Forum, I cannot fully make my point. I do believe that certain groups do have generalized tendencies, but I don't believe it's fair to make blanket statements and claim that all of the people from any group have those characteristics.

so you believe there are "some good ones" out there huh? ...Archie Bunker take

Well, yes there are "Good people" that are non Christians, but we are ALL sinners. None of us can get to heaven without Jesus because we are not perfect.

Right. God created us to be fallible and will send us to an eternal Hell unless we adore him. Nice, reasonable, totally not self-aggrandizing guy that God.