How To Get To Heaven When You Die. Read The First Post. Then Q&A Discussion. Ask Questions Here! (2 Viewers)

[Paddington]

I am not allowed to give examples because it violates the rules here. Last time I said a word and was banned for a month, even though that word isn't necessarily a Political word. So, under the current rules of the Forum, I cannot fully make my point. I do believe that certain groups do have generalized tendencies, but I don't believe it's fair to make blanket statements and claim that all of the people from any group have those characteristics.

so you believe there are "some good ones" out there huh? ...Archie Bunker take

Well, yes there are "Good people" that are non Christians, but we are ALL sinners. None of us can get to heaven without Jesus because we are not perfect.

Right. God created us to be fallible and will send us to an eternal Hell unless we adore him. Nice, reasonable, totally not self-aggrandizing guy that God.

False. God didn't create us imperfect. God created hell for the devil and his fallen angels. The first Man, Adam chose to sin against God and in essence, because we were all in Adam at the time, he doomed the human race. But because God is gracious and Good, He sent His only Son to leave His throne in heaven, come to live in a rat hole as a poor man, be mocked and ridiculed and beaten and tortured to death, so that you could still go to heaven. All you have to do is Trust in Jesus Christ and what He did on the cross for you to pay for your sins. THEN He wants to make YOU royalty in heaven for all of eternity to rule over His creation with Him. It's a great deal and He promises to never leave you nor forsake you.

 

[fatness]

Look what I found from 2016:

HOW TO GET TO HEAVEN WHEN YOU DIE! Read This First Post, THEN Q & A Discussion! ASK QUESTIONS HERE!

PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO READ THIS. IT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT THING YOU COULD EVER DO AND IT ONLY TAKES A FEW MINUTES ARE YOU 100% SURE THAT IF YOU DIED TODAY THAT YOU WOULD GO TO HEAVEN? (CLICK 'READ MORE') There are some things that you should know: 1. Realize that you are a sinner and in need...

forums.footballguys.com

 

[Joe Bryant]

Look what I found from 2016:

HOW TO GET TO HEAVEN WHEN YOU DIE! Read This First Post, THEN Q & A Discussion! ASK QUESTIONS HERE!

PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO READ THIS. IT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT THING YOU COULD EVER DO AND IT ONLY TAKES A FEW MINUTES ARE YOU 100% SURE THAT IF YOU DIED TODAY THAT YOU WOULD GO TO HEAVEN? (CLICK 'READ MORE') There are some things that you should know: 1. Realize that you are a sinner and in need...

forums.footballguys.com

Yes. @Paddington has had a few of these over the years. I've asked him to keep it to just this one started in 2022 and that's fine. No worries.

 

[Sleestak]

Maybe I am slow, but I just discovered that if I put the thread starter on ignore, his thread totally ceases to exist from my vantage point. @Joe Bryant, is there any way to put a single thread on ignore? I'd rather do that, than make Paddington go poof entirely.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Maybe I am slow, but I just discovered that if I put the thread starter on ignore, his thread totally ceases to exist from my vantage point. @Joe Bryant, is there any way to put a single thread on ignore? I'd rather do that, than make Paddington go poof entirely.

I don't think our forum software can do that.

 

[Navin Johnson]

Maybe I am slow, but I just discovered that if I put the thread starter on ignore, his thread totally ceases to exist from my vantage point. @Joe Bryant, is there any way to put a single thread on ignore? I'd rather do that, than make Paddington go poof entirely.

It appears that he only posts in this thread anyway, so six of one...

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

Right. God created us to be fallible and will send us to an eternal Hell unless we adore him. Nice, reasonable, totally not self-aggrandizing guy that God.

A bit of a tangent but...

Graham Hancock, to make some outlandish claims which are compromised mostly of phrases such as "what if...?" "suppose that..." "I believe..." "this suggests..." etc. designed to support his hypothesis that, if I understand it correctly (he continues to really just dance around it again this season), there was some super advanced civilization that may or may not have been aliens that were able to cross the globe with ease around the time of the Ice Age and provided many of the then human tribes if you will with advanced technology and a mathematical appreciated for astronomy that Norton opines humans could not have been capable of around that time.

When you were watching these and being told of certain common themes in ancient creation myths, did you notice the contrast between a few common elements (knowledge and serpent) ? How the "civilized cultures" and the pastoral nomads had different takes on them? Nothing terribly important about anything, but just an interesting thought for me.

 

[Paddington]

Look what I found from 2016:

https://forums.footballguys.com/thr...-a-discussion-ask-questions-here.741370/[/URL

http://

Maybe I am slow, but I just discovered that if I put the thread starter on ignore, his thread totally ceases to exist from my vantage point. @Joe Bryant, is there any way to put a single thread on ignore? I'd rather do that, than make Paddington go poof entirely.

Although I would like for you to engage this thread, I really don't understand why it bothers you so much that you can't simply ignore it and keep scrolling. There are lots of discussion topics that I don't like that I simply don't click on.

 

[BlackCrowes]

@Paddington - Any thoughts on the Euthyphro Dilemma?

 

[Paddington]

@Paddington - Any thoughts on the Euthyphro Dilemma?

Although Philosophy is a nice subject, I am not a Philosopher. I believe that God is just and good and I believe that, although He directs all things in the Universe, He also gives us free will to choose what we will do. That is the Paradox I can't understand. But I believe that both are happening at the same time. I hope this at least comes close to answering your question. Interestingly, He predicted in Daniel the 7 World Empires that will happen on the Earth and yet, these Non believing men, who had no faith or consciousness of the living God, carried out exactly what God said they would of their own free will choices. Somehow, God accomplishes His perfect will through our free will choices.

 

[Paddington]

We are in the South and originally sent our son to Catholic school since my wife is Catholic. It was literally a "little country school" and wasn't getting a very good education so we switched him to a touted private school that happened to be Baptist.

It was great ...for about 6 months, until he came home very upset and telling us we were going to hell because we were "EVILUTIONISTS"!

Yeah, I spelled that right.

i am from a Baptist background and although I agree with much of their Theology, I think a lot of them have a wrong attitude. Although I disagree with Darwinian Evolution, I do believe that there is a type of Evolution that does exist and so do the Creation Scientists. It's called Lateral Adaptation, or Micro Evolution. In other words, it only happens within the Species. There are different breeds of Dogs, Cats, Horses, Ect., but they always stay Dogs, Cats, Horses, Ect. It's the same with people. There are actually many Missing Links that don't connect any of the Animal Kinds to any others, not matter how badly they try. With that said, a Belief in Evolution is NOT a Salvation issue. They are WRONG to hell you that you are going to hell for believing in Evolution. The criteria for getting into heaven is that you have Faith and Trust in Jesus Christ, believing in your heart that He died on the Cross and Rose from the Dead, shedding His blood as a Sacrifice for your sins to God. God wants us to come to Him the way we are and when we trust in Him, He makes the changes in our lives and thinking. He is still working on me. So, I apologize for something saying that to you. Remember that we don't go to Church or Serve the Lord for the people, we do it for God because we love Him, trust Him and Believe Him. God showed me that years ago. Don't ever give up on God.

 

[Paddington]

I just want to encourage you to read this first post, if you haven't yet, before engaging in the discussion. Thanks.

 

[Paddington]

I also thought that "Christian" simply meant a person who professes a belief in Jesus Christ and that, specifically, Jesus is the son of God and his death opened the gates of heaven, So, to me, it seems at least definitionally fair to include Catholics, LDS, etc. into the bucket because my understanding is that they also follow this core belief.

I went to a Baptist church for a while as a kid and they were very adamant that Catholics, Mormons, etc. were not Christians and were hellbound. I wasn't going to fight with them on theology, but just from a semantics standpoint it seemed silly to exclude people who worship Christ from the Christian umbrella, even if you think they're doing it wrong.

Being a true Christian isn't about which Denomination you belong to. It's about where your faith is. If your faith is in the Gospel of Grace, which is hat Jesus Christ died on the cross and rose from the dead, shedding His blood as a Sacrifice for your sins, than that is what God requires. Church, Baptism, Communion, Good Deeds are not what saves people. I believe that there are true Christians in all denominations, but I also believe that there are false Christians in all Denominations because they have to get the Gospel right. The Gospel is what saves people.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

 

[Paddington]

Happy Sunday! Which Church did you attend today?

 

[Paddington]

@Paddington - Any thoughts on the Euthyphro Dilemma?

What are your thoughts on it?

 

[Navin Johnson]

Happy Sunday! Which Church did you attend today?

Went to the Tollwood Festival to celebrate the Solstice

 

[BlackCrowes]

@Paddington - Any thoughts on the Euthyphro Dilemma?

What are your thoughts on it?

I’m an atheist so the question is meaningless. Obviously I don’t think morality requires any gods or religion.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

Happy Sunday! Which Church did you attend today?

The same church I have attended most weeks since February 2019 (about a year after moving 1500 miles), except for about 5 months during Covid. The Sunday before things shut down was my 3rd turn at Assistant Minister. When service was moved to the parking lot after those 5 months, I pretty much had a Sunday job (usher, assistant) most weeks. And except for taking the past two summers off for surgeries, that has continued, though I'm only about half the Sundays right now. Assisted today on Mary's Psalm Sunday where Mary's faith was celebrated and explored. As in what actually is faith. Especially in the context of Mary. While the answer given in the sermon was ultimately "all of the above" for a bunch of words or concepts, the concept given the most time was "openness". Mary was open to accepting the role God had planned for her.

I couldn't help but wonder if your first post would resonate any better if instead of using the "belief" aspect of faith it went with the openness aspect. That is rather than asking folks to jump ahead and believe that Jesus died for their sins and offer a [the] path to salvation to instead ask them to be open to the idea. If ultimately it would lead to more believers. Before rebutting this thought, I'm not sure one way or another. It appeals to my thinking in some ways of meeting people where they are, but I'm not sure that the first post is going to resonate with anyone not already open anyway. Still think the message of taking care of one another is the way to go. It worked in those first few foundational centuries; I think it will work again. People are just longing for a loving community.

 

[Paddington]

Happy Sunday! Which Church did you attend today?

Went to the Tollwood Festival to celebrate the Solstice

How was it? What was it like there?

 

[Joe Bryant]

@Paddington please check your PM Inbox.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Glad we have a forum where we can discuss religion.

Same. I'm thankful for good discussion on this and thank you to folks for the thoughtful posts.

 

[Paddington]

Maybe I am slow, but I just discovered that if I put the thread starter on ignore, his thread totally ceases to exist from my vantage point. @Joe Bryant, is there any way to put a single thread on ignore? I'd rather do that, than make Paddington go poof entirely.

It appears that he only posts in this thread anyway, so six of one...

I watch plenty of football, both College and Pro. Go Blue! Michigan won the National Championship last year and Go Lions! They are poised to make the Superbowl for the first time ever.

 

[Joe Bryant]

This art always makes me think.

Merry Christmas. Peace and Grace to You and Yours.

x.com

x.com

 

[Paddington]

This art always makes me think.

Merry Christmas. Peace and Grace to You and Yours.

x.com

x.com

Interesting. What is your interpretation of this art piece?

 

[Sullie]

Mass at Notre Dame live on YT 2024, first time Christmas mass has been celebrated there since the fire of 2019.

 

[Paddington]

Mass at Notre Dame live on YT 2024, first time Christmas mass has been celebrated there since the fire of 2019.

I think I saw that on NBC was it? With the Pope?

 

[Sullie]

Mass at Notre Dame live on YT 2024, first time Christmas mass has been celebrated there since the fire of 2019.

I think I saw that on NBC was it? With the Pope?

Merry Christmas Paddington! So, the Notre Dame Cathedral is in the heart of Paris France. What you saw on NBC was the Pope celebrating mass in St. Peter's Basilica in Vatican City, Rome, Italy.

I don't believe I've ever said anything to you but I've observed your posts over the years and while I am too much of a coward to ever try and do what you do on here, I believe, with all my heart, that you are filled with the Holy Spirit and you desperately want and desire for as many souls as possible to make their way home to God. I don't think you do this out of anything but pure love in your heart and for that I must commend you as I appreciate that so much. . . even if you do root for that horrible team from up north. . . we can't all be perfect.

 

[Paddington]

Mass at Notre Dame live on YT 2024, first time Christmas mass has been celebrated there since the fire of 2019.

I think I saw that on NBC was it? With the Pope?

Merry Christmas Paddington! So, the Notre Dame Cathedral is in the heart of Paris France. What you saw on NBC was the Pope celebrating mass in St. Peter's Basilica in Vatican City, Rome, Italy.

I don't believe I've ever said anything to you but I've observed your posts over the years and while I am too much of a coward to ever try and do what you do on here, I believe, with all my heart, that you are filled with the Holy Spirit and you desperately want and desire for as many souls as possible to make their way home to God. I don't think you do this out of anything but pure love in your heart and for that I must commend you as I appreciate that so much. . . even if you do root for that horrible team from up north. . . we can't all be perfect.

Sully, Merry Christmas to you also. You sound like a great person to know. Yes, I knew the Notre Dame Cathedral was in Paris. I guess when I saw the Pope on TV I thought maybe he was there. I admit I am not a Catholic, so, I am ignorant of some of those things.

I am glad that you have chosen to speak to me now. You are the type of person I am trying to encourage in the faith. It's not just about reaching souls for Christ (Although that is the #1 reason). I had an experience with the Lord in 2001 where He spoke to me and told me to go back to a certain Church that I had visited. That experience really did change my life and is why I am passionate about this. When I went back there, they Discipled me in the Foundational Doctrines of the Faith. They also had a printing ministry that printed millions of Gospel Tracts up per year. My passion is for as many to be saved as possible, yes. Interestingly, I am hated most everywhere I go for it, but so was Jesus and the Disciples. I believe that I know what it will be like for those not saved and I don't want anyone to go there. Yes, I live in the North and root for Michigan and the Lions, so you can probably guess which State I live in. Are you from Ohio? Lol. If so, I can forgive you for that. Lol. Please feel free to ask me anything about this topic or even if you just want to talk about something else. It's ok friend. I don't shy away from any question. I don't know everything, but I know enough to be very confident in my faith. Joe Bryant is very good about not letting people get rude and keeping it respectful, which is very different than most other sites, so don't worry about speaking. You are respected here. God bless!

 

[Paddington]

Merry Christmas Everyone! God Bless You & Keep You!

 

[Paddington]

Early Secular Writings Regarding Christ:

Early Secular Writings Regarding Christ

 

[Paddington]

Was going to ask if this is one of Joe's aliases, along with the FBG Mod account.

Who is Joe? The answer is no. I only have one alias on this site.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Was going to ask if this is one of Joe's aliases, along with the FBG Mod account.

Who is Joe? The answer is no. I only have one alias on this site.

Correct. Not sure what @ShamrockPride pride meant.

 

[-fish-]

I am not allowed to give examples because it violates the rules here. Last time I said a word and was banned for a month, even though that word isn't necessarily a Political word. So, under the current rules of the Forum, I cannot fully make my point. I do believe that certain groups do have generalized tendencies, but I don't believe it's fair to make blanket statements and claim that all of the people from any group have those characteristics.

so you believe there are "some good ones" out there huh? ...Archie Bunker take

Well, yes there are "Good people" that are non Christians, but we are ALL sinners. None of us can get to heaven without Jesus because we are not perfect.

Right. God created us to be fallible and will send us to an eternal Hell unless we adore him. Nice, reasonable, totally not self-aggrandizing guy that God.

False. God didn't create us imperfect. God created hell for the devil and his fallen angels. The first Man, Adam chose to sin against God and in essence, because we were all in Adam at the time, he doomed the human race. But because God is gracious and Good, He sent His only Son to leave His throne in heaven, come to live in a rat hole as a poor man, be mocked and ridiculed and beaten and tortured to death, so that you could still go to heaven. All you have to do is Trust in Jesus Christ and what He did on the cross for you to pay for your sins. THEN He wants to make YOU royalty in heaven for all of eternity to rule over His creation with Him. It's a great deal and He promises to never leave you nor forsake you.

If man wasn't created imperfect he wouldn't have been capable of sin.

Res ipsa loquitur.

 

[Joe Bryant]

As I've said earlier, I don't put much time into the 7 literal days creation or perfection in creating man thought and that type of thing.

I, of course, don't know exactly what God was thinking, but I tend to think he wasn't looking for a robot when he created people. One can argue semantics of "perfect" and what that means exactly.

My understanding of it has always been people are created with free will.

People much more knowledgeable than I am have spent tons of time on these questions. The Westminster Catechism is one document that covers a lot of this in shorter concise points.

Resources - Cambridge Presbyterian Church

Cambridge Presbyterian Church

www.cambridgepres.org.uk

3. Why did God create man?​

Man was created by God that man should serve his Creator. God does not exist for man’s sake but man exists for God’s sake, to serve and to glorify Him forever.

I also understand people that say they don't like that God created man to serve him and and glorify him.

This kind of structured theology and catechisms is not an area I know a lot about. And it's honestly not all that practical for me in my day to day. I am much more interested in the practical "How do I live my life following / reflecting Jesus?" aspects of it. I'm more interested in the stuff like we're talking about here https://forums.footballguys.com/threads/christian-stuff-a-thread.815101/post-25188552

 

[Zow]

Yeah, the whole "God created us to serve Him" principle doesn't make God look all that great and seems to reaffirm that he's a jealous, self-centered tyrant (at least as he's described in the Christian faith and the OT).

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Yeah, the whole "God created us to serve Him" principle doesn't make God look all that great and seems to reaffirm that he's a jealous, self-centered tyrant (at least as he's described in the Christian faith and the OT).

It's not for God's benefit, obviously. It's for ours.

 

[dkp993]

Yeah, the whole "God created us to serve Him" principle doesn't make God look all that great and seems to reaffirm that he's a jealous, self-centered tyrant (at least as he's described in the Christian faith and the OT).

It's not for God's benefit, obviously. It's for ours.

How is that obvious? If he created us to serve him that seems quite obvious it was for his benefit.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Yeah, the whole "God created us to serve Him" principle doesn't make God look all that great and seems to reaffirm that he's a jealous, self-centered tyrant (at least as he's described in the Christian faith and the OT).

It's not for God's benefit, obviously. It's for ours.

How is that obvious? If he created us to serve him that seems quite obvious it was for his benefit.

When you had kids, were you motivated by how having kids around would benefit you personally?

 

[dkp993]

Yeah, the whole "God created us to serve Him" principle doesn't make God look all that great and seems to reaffirm that he's a jealous, self-centered tyrant (at least as he's described in the Christian faith and the OT).

It's not for God's benefit, obviously. It's for ours.

How is that obvious? If he created us to serve him that seems quite obvious it was for his benefit.

When you had kids, were you motivated by how having kids around would benefit you personally?

So my kids whole job on this planet is to serve and worship me? We are very different parents I guess.

 

[Joe Bryant]

This is why I don't get pulled into the

Yeah, the whole "God created us to serve Him" principle doesn't make God look all that great and seems to reaffirm that he's a jealous, self-centered tyrant (at least as he's described in the Christian faith and the OT).

It's not for God's benefit, obviously. It's for ours.

How is that obvious? If he created us to serve him that seems quite obvious it was for his benefit.

When you had kids, were you motivated by how having kids around would benefit you personally?

So my kids whole job on this planet is to serve and worship me? We are very different parents I guess.

I don't think that's the kind of parent @IvanKaramazov is. I'd hope you know that.

I fully admit I don't understand how it all fits together.

I quoted the catechism as it's a common way of viewing it. "Man was created by God that man should serve his Creator. God does not exist for man’s sake but man exists for God’s sake, to serve and to glorify Him forever."

And as I said, I know some people don't like that portrayal of God. I was just offering a reference point.

It's also why I don't spend too much time on it. I suppose it's interesting to do the "Is God powerful enough to create an object he's not powerful enough to move?" stuff. But it always feels like I've got other more pressing things to work on with my faith.

There seems to be a never ending need for living out faith loving your "Neighbor". LIke here https://forums.footballguys.com/threads/christian-stuff-a-thread.815101/post-25188552

I think that's a better thing to dive into.

 

[dkp993]

This is why I don't get pulled into the

Sure but you could understand why someone who doesn’t have faith would ask these questions I assume.

And for me, I wouldn’t have even replied but IK’s condescending “obviously” compelled me to.

 

[Joe Bryant]

This is why I don't get pulled into the

Sure but you could understand why someone who doesn’t have faith would ask these questions I assume.

And for me, I wouldn’t have even replied but IK’s condescending “obviously” compelled me to.

For sure. I understand asking.

I'm just saying I don't have answers there I fully understand.

And I think there are much better questions to be asking, things like "How can we better follow and reflect Jesus?" and much better things to do, like how we can actually be doing those things.

 

[dkp993]

This is why I don't get pulled into the

Sure but you could understand why someone who doesn’t have faith would ask these questions I assume.

And for me, I wouldn’t have even replied but IK’s condescending “obviously” compelled me to.

For sure. I understand asking.

I'm just saying I don't have answers there I fully understand.

And I think there are much better questions to be asking, things like "How can we better follow and reflect Jesus?" and much better things to do, like how we can actually be doing those things.

Sure, I guess I just parse it out differently than you do. I equate “following and reflect Jesus” to doing your best to be a good human being. I’m down with that. But I don’t equate that to following an organized religion, believing in Heaven or Hell or believing in God in the classic sense.

But if we (this discussion or any other) are talking about organized religion I disagree with your “there are much better questions to be asking”. If I’m being asked to devote my life to something I’m going to ask all the pertinent questions I feel are relevant to be convinced.

 

[dgreen]

Yeah, the whole "God created us to serve Him" principle doesn't make God look all that great and seems to reaffirm that he's a jealous, self-centered tyrant (at least as he's described in the Christian faith and the OT).

It's not for God's benefit, obviously. It's for ours.

How is that obvious? If he created us to serve him that seems quite obvious it was for his benefit.

I think there's probably some disconnect in how we think of "serving". The Bible was written in a world of covenants. Kings had covenants with their people. The "serving" is in the context of being in covenant with a king. Being in covenant with a king was not a bad thing. It provided protection and provision. It may seem bad to us since we fought a war to not have a king and we value democracy and the bill of rights, but to them it was very important. I think of serving as following the king's rules and caring for the king's property. Adam was put in the garden to work (serve) and keep (guard) it. That was his covenantal job. It would be an honor to be in such a situation.

God is described as jealous in the context of covenants, whether that's a king whose people "serve" another god/king or a husband who is jealous of his cheating wife. His jealousy comes from a great desire for people to be in covenant with him because it is what's best for us and his creation.

 

[Joe Bryant]

But if we (this discussion or any other) are talking about organized religion I disagree with your “there are much better questions to be asking”. If I’m being asked to devote my life to something I’m going to ask all the pertinent questions I feel are relevant to be convinced.

Thanks. We can disagree there. I personally don't think I'll find completely satisfying or convincing answers to the "Why did God create man?" type questions.

But that also doesn't make me dismiss the whole thing.

As I understand Jesus' teachings, I don't have to have an answer there first in order to follow him.

At some point, I think it's less about a logical and documented victory in a debate or argument, and there's an element of faith that comes into play. It's an "I don't have all the answers, but I'm taking this step of faith" type thing. At least it was for me.

 

[dkp993]

At some point, I think it's less about a logical and documented victory in a debate or argument, and there's an element of faith that comes into play. It's an "I don't have all the answers, but I'm taking this step of faith" type thing. At least it was for me.

100%. Faith is my issue. And to be incredibly clear, I’m not, nor am I ever when discussing this topic, in a debate. I’m making zero attempt to convince anyone else to change their opinion. I have no interest in that, whatever helps someone be a better person I’m down with. When discussing the topic and asking questions I’m always doing it for my understanding.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Yeah, the whole "God created us to serve Him" principle doesn't make God look all that great and seems to reaffirm that he's a jealous, self-centered tyrant (at least as he's described in the Christian faith and the OT).

It's not for God's benefit, obviously. It's for ours.

How is that obvious? If he created us to serve him that seems quite obvious it was for his benefit.

When you had kids, were you motivated by how having kids around would benefit you personally?

So my kids whole job on this planet is to serve and worship me? We are very different parents I guess.

No, I'm saying that probably neither of us had kids for the purpose of "serving us," and perhaps we should consider that God thinks of us in roughly the same way.

 

[dkp993]

Yeah, the whole "God created us to serve Him" principle doesn't make God look all that great and seems to reaffirm that he's a jealous, self-centered tyrant (at least as he's described in the Christian faith and the OT).

It's not for God's benefit, obviously. It's for ours.

How is that obvious? If he created us to serve him that seems quite obvious it was for his benefit.

When you had kids, were you motivated by how having kids around would benefit you personally?

So my kids whole job on this planet is to serve and worship me? We are very different parents I guess.

No, I'm saying that probably neither of us had kids for the purpose of "serving us," and perhaps we should consider that God thinks of us in roughly the same way.

Again none of that is “obvious”.

And I for one would never damn my kids to hell for eternity for, well, anything. So I’m not sure how the parent analogy holds up.

 

[Joe Schmo]

Yeah, the whole "God created us to serve Him" principle doesn't make God look all that great and seems to reaffirm that he's a jealous, self-centered tyrant (at least as he's described in the Christian faith and the OT).

It's not for God's benefit, obviously. It's for ours.

How is that obvious? If he created us to serve him that seems quite obvious it was for his benefit.

When you had kids, were you motivated by how having kids around would benefit you personally?

So my kids whole job on this planet is to serve and worship me? We are very different parents I guess.

No, I'm saying that probably neither of us had kids for the purpose of "serving us," and perhaps we should consider that God thinks of us in roughly the same way.

Again none of that is “obvious”.

And I for one would never damn my kids to hell for eternity for, well, anything. So I’m not sure how the parent analogy holds up.

But can you honestly say you've never wanted to smited one of them at some point?

 

[dgreen]

Yeah, the whole "God created us to serve Him" principle doesn't make God look all that great and seems to reaffirm that he's a jealous, self-centered tyrant (at least as he's described in the Christian faith and the OT).

It's not for God's benefit, obviously. It's for ours.

How is that obvious? If he created us to serve him that seems quite obvious it was for his benefit.

When you had kids, were you motivated by how having kids around would benefit you personally?

So my kids whole job on this planet is to serve and worship me? We are very different parents I guess.

No, I'm saying that probably neither of us had kids for the purpose of "serving us," and perhaps we should consider that God thinks of us in roughly the same way.

Again none of that is “obvious”.

And I for one would never damn my kids to hell for eternity for, well, anything. So I’m not sure how the parent analogy holds up.

What if the analogy does hold up and it’s the presupposition about God that doesn’t hold up?