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How To Get To Heaven When You Die. Read The First Post. Then Q&A Discussion. Ask Questions Here! (7 Viewers)

DO YOU PLACE YOUR FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST, BELIEVING THAT HE DIED N ROSE AGAIN AS A SACRIFICE FOR SIN?

  • YES

    Votes: 3 11.1%
  • No

    Votes: 18 66.7%
  • I ALREADY PLACED MY FAITH IN JESUS & HIS SACRIFICE FOR MY SINS

    Votes: 4 14.8%
  • OTHER

    Votes: 2 7.4%

  • Total voters
    27
I do think there is motivation for followers to find explanations for things in the Bible that aren't so savory. My guess is things that easily reconcile with the standards of today or preconceived notions of how people/God should act aren't parsed as much as the controversial stuff. Matthew 10:34-37 is an example where the face value interpretation doesn't sound so great which motivates the reader to find a softer meaning.
Which is where my rub or disconnect comes in about the Bible. I actually understand the literalist point of view far better than the interpretation viewpoint.

If the Bible is our path to literal eternal salvation (or damnation) “written” by an all-knowing God, leaving it up to interpretation makes zero sense at all. It’s literally building errors into the foundation of the only source of “communication”. That doesn’t seem “all-knowing”.
 
I do think there is motivation for followers to find explanations for things in the Bible that aren't so savory. My guess is things that easily reconcile with the standards of today or preconceived notions of how people/God should act aren't parsed as much as the controversial stuff. Matthew 10:34-37 is an example where the face value interpretation doesn't sound so great which motivates the reader to find a softer meaning.
Guilty!

But I also think there is the reverse where believers are expected, even at time demanded to defend literal reading of the text that are contrary to our beliefs. And as I pointed out earlier the accusation made here for believers, at least a subset was being made in the second and third centuries.

Now don't get me wrong, the guy I am referencing Origen advocated at least once for the "god of deception" when he promoted the "ransom theory" so I don't want to get defending his beliefs either, just using his arguments as evidence that at least some Christians from very early on were not reading things literally. Of course if the ransom has already been paid for my/our soul then is our debt with Satan settled?
 
It’s literally building errors into the foundation of the only source of “communication”.
While I agree with your larger points, the Bible isn't the source of my faith and not where I believe that the communication between me and God primarily happens. I have acknowledge for a long time it may be some defect in the brain that causes me to believe what I do, and probably the time and place of my birth "framed" what I believe into the Biblical narratives, but the belief itself is something internal.
 
It’s literally building errors into the foundation of the only source of “communication”.
While I agree with your larger points, the Bible isn't the source of my faith and not where I believe that the communication between me and God primarily happens. I have acknowledge for a long time it may be some defect in the brain that causes me to believe what I do, and probably the time and place of my birth "framed" what I believe into the Biblical narratives, but the belief itself is something internal.
I appreciate your sentiment here very much because it loops back to what I see as the common theme of this thread which is that logic and reason will never get one to believe but faith will.

ETA: In other words, much like dkp said, I certainly don't think you have any sort of "defect." I think it's quite natural to believe in something more than what we see daily. I think the breakdown comes from one in your position trying to convince others that you are right and they aren't. I don't think you'll ever "win" that argument from a logic and reason standpoint (you may be able to convert somebody looking for an emotional boost).
 
Last edited:
It’s literally building errors into the foundation of the only source of “communication”.
While I agree with your larger points, the Bible isn't the source of my faith and not where I believe that the communication between me and God primarily happens. I have acknowledge for a long time it may be some defect in the brain that causes me to believe what I do, and probably the time and place of my birth "framed" what I believe into the Biblical narratives, but the belief itself is something internal.
On the concept of “belief” (which certainly has levels to it) I don’t at all think you have a “defect”. I think it’s part of the human condition to try to understand and search for more. For me when it pertains to organized religion and the claim of “knowing” is where I have lots of problems.
 
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I do think there is motivation for followers to find explanations for things in the Bible that aren't so savory. My guess is things that easily reconcile with the standards of today or preconceived notions of how people/God should act aren't parsed as much as the controversial stuff. Matthew 10:34-37 is an example where the face value interpretation doesn't sound so great which motivates the reader to find a softer meaning.
Guilty!

But I also think there is the reverse where believers are expected, even at time demanded to defend literal reading of the text that are contrary to our beliefs. And as I pointed out earlier the accusation made here for believers, at least a subset was being made in the second and third centuries.

Now don't get me wrong, the guy I am referencing Origen advocated at least once for the "god of deception" when he promoted the "ransom theory" so I don't want to get defending his beliefs either, just using his arguments as evidence that at least some Christians from very early on were not reading things literally. Of course if the ransom has already been paid for my/our soul then is our debt with Satan settled?
I can appreciate that. Even the verses I cited seem at odds with Jesus' typical message.
 
Well, I believe that those that allegorize the Bible, are using it as an excuse to change the actual meaning of what is saying into what THEY want to believe. There are some allegories in the Bible, but they are always interpreted by the Bible itself and always have a literal meaning. For the most part, it says what it means and means what it says. God isn't trying to hide things from.people who are sincere in knowing the truth, but He has been known to hide things from those who don't really trust in Him or His Word. Those who would create God in their own image, rather than conforming to the image of Christ. The Bible interprets itself.

@Paddington - sincere request, & I hope you will find the time to give this a thoughtful response…

I am curious to know how you have experienced the gospel. What was your life like before you met Jesus? After you became a professing Christian, how did your life change? In what ways does the gospel still impact your life, ______ years after you began to follow Christ?

Thanks in advance for sharing your personal testimony.
 
It’s literally building errors into the foundation of the only source of “communication”.
While I agree with your larger points, the Bible isn't the source of my faith and not where I believe that the communication between me and God primarily happens. I have acknowledge for a long time it may be some defect in the brain that causes me to believe what I do, and probably the time and place of my birth "framed" what I believe into the Biblical narratives, but the belief itself is something internal.
I appreciate your sentiment here very much because it loops back to what I see as the common theme of this thread which is that logic and reason will never get one to believe but faith will.

ETA: In other words, much like dkp said, I certainly don't think you have any sort of "defect." I think it's quite natural to believe in something more than what we see daily. I think the breakdown comes from one in your position trying to convince others that you are right and they aren't. I don't think you'll ever "win" that argument from a logic and reason standpoint (you may be able to convert somebody looking for an emotional boost).
Logic and reason are rooted in facts/evidence/data. They don't cross paths with faith/belief as faith/belief are positions people take beyond what logic and reason require.
 
It’s literally building errors into the foundation of the only source of “communication”.
While I agree with your larger points, the Bible isn't the source of my faith and not where I believe that the communication between me and God primarily happens. I have acknowledge for a long time it may be some defect in the brain that causes me to believe what I do, and probably the time and place of my birth "framed" what I believe into the Biblical narratives, but the belief itself is something internal.
I appreciate your sentiment here very much because it loops back to what I see as the common theme of this thread which is that logic and reason will never get one to believe but faith will.

ETA: In other words, much like dkp said, I certainly don't think you have any sort of "defect." I think it's quite natural to believe in something more than what we see daily. I think the breakdown comes from one in your position trying to convince others that you are right and they aren't. I don't think you'll ever "win" that argument from a logic and reason standpoint (you may be able to convert somebody looking for an emotional boost).
Logic and reason are rooted in facts/evidence/data. They don't cross paths with faith/belief as faith/belief are positions people take beyond what logic and reason require.
Right...
 
Hmm, I'm still not seeing anything related to the point I was trying to make. Maybe I argued against a point you weren't making and I just confused things. And we might be using certain words differently. It's all good.
I guess I’m not really understanding your point. He has made it clear he takes the Bible literally at its word. With very little, if any, interpretation. He’s said this over and over again, including in the posts I linked above. Because of this I asked very specific questions of that literalness to which I’m still awaiting his answers on.

You’re a very thoughtful and intelligent poster, so I’m really not sure why this isn’t clear or where our disconnect is.
Yes, he has said he reads it literally. But, interestingly, that leaves us to interpret what he literally means by "literally". You seem to be assuming that a literal reading requires a reading that applies everything universally. That's what I'm saying isn't part of any definition of "literal" reading I've encountered. There's no rationalizing needed (I was primary responding to the question of how he rationalizes the teachings to modern life) to claim to read Leviticus literally but also not follow the Levitical code.
 
There's no rationalizing needed (I was primary responding to the question of how he rationalizes the teachings to modern life) to claim to read Leviticus literally but also not follow the Levitical code.
I guess this is where I get lost. If it was literally true then (Ie you got stoned to death for collecting sticks on sabbath) why would that not stay true today? What does it being 2025 have to do with Levitical code? In other words, if it’s Gods word in 500bce why not in 2025?
 
There's no rationalizing needed (I was primary responding to the question of how he rationalizes the teachings to modern life) to claim to read Leviticus literally but also not follow the Levitical code.
I guess this is where I get lost. If it was literally true then (Ie you got stoned to death for collecting sticks on sabbath) why would that not stay true today? What does it being 2025 have to do with Levitical code? In other words, if it’s Gods word in 500bce why not in 2025?
Because it was God's word to a particular group of people in a particular place at a particular time. If I say to my son that he needs to do the dishes, that's not me telling my daughter that she needs to do the dishes too. Those commandments are part of an ancient covenant between Israel and the God of Israel. That's the context. To even zero in a little more, the Levitical code was for the Levitical priests. That stuff wasn't even for non-priests. When God told the priests how to perform a sacrifice, it wasn't telling a non-priest of the tribe of Dan how to do the sacrifice. Same concept with other commandments within the covenant. They are for a particular people.
 
I can appreciate that. Even the verses I cited seem at odds with Jesus' typical message.
I see those specific verses as part of the larger pep talk that is going on to get the disciples to go out and do something that they would naturally be apprensive about. But I also see "Matthew" sprinkling in Old Testament stuff out of context, at least out of the context I believe that quotation of scripture concerns. Isn't the Micah reference being quoted generally believed to be about sacrificing children?
For me when it pertains to organized religion and the claim of “knowing” is where I have lots of problems.
I know that the odds are I've got lots of this wrong. As long as I got the part right that being wrong doesn't matter, then that's okay. If I am wrong about that then it still doesn't matter, just for a different reason
I appreciate your sentiment here very much because it loops back to what I see as the common theme of this thread which is that logic and reason will never get one to believe but faith will.
It is good for my soul to just state "I believe in crazy stuff". Stuff that is foreign to what we experience. Stuff that it is a fools earrand to try to get you to believe. The only messages I try to get you to adopt is that things just work better when we take care of each other. And that I hope that religion (in this context not the same as faith) doesn't get in the way. If Jesus has already paid for all our sins then there should be no need to be telling you that you still have a bill to pay, but instead you are free to try without worry that you'll end up with more debt.
.
Logic and reason are rooted in facts/evidence/data. They don't cross paths with faith/belief as faith/belief are positions people take beyond what logic and reason require.
So a somewhat typical Christian proof of the form-

1) State some questioned story from the Bible
2) Speculate ways that it might have possibly happened loosely tied to the narrative
3) Claim that since it could have happened then it must have happened exactly as it says in the Bible

is invalid? I mostly agree with you, but I think that logic and reason should, often it doesn't help frame and shape a belief. I mean it is bad enough to believe in crazy stuff like God dying and spending three days in hell, to add logically stupid stuff on top of that. (Yes, I know what I did here.)
 
I can appreciate that. Even the verses I cited seem at odds with Jesus' typical message.
I see those specific verses as part of the larger pep talk that is going on to get the disciples to go out and do something that they would naturally be apprensive about. But I also see "Matthew" sprinkling in Old Testament stuff out of context, at least out of the context I believe that quotation of scripture concerns. Isn't the Micah reference being quoted generally believed to be about sacrificing children?
Yeah, it's key to notice he's quoting Micah. He could be using it out of context as a way to grab fitting and familiar language to make his point (like how we might quote song lyrics to express our emotions even if the song isn't really about what we're going through). He could also be pointing to the context of God's salvation. It's a typical Jewish method that the verse that's quoted isn't the actual point of the quotation. The next verse is about waiting for God's salvation and Jesus' name is the word for salvation. It appears the Talmud even talks about the Micah verse about sons and fathers and daughters and mothers as being something that will happen in Messianic times, so it could be a claim of his Messiahship. The Matthew verse is also pretty consistent with rabbinic culture in that a disciple was considered closer to their rabbi than their own father.
 
There's no rationalizing needed (I was primary responding to the question of how he rationalizes the teachings to modern life) to claim to read Leviticus literally but also not follow the Levitical code.
I guess this is where I get lost. If it was literally true then (Ie you got stoned to death for collecting sticks on sabbath) why would that not stay true today? What does it being 2025 have to do with Levitical code? In other words, if it’s Gods word in 500bce why not in 2025?
Because it was God's word to a particular group of people in a particular place at a particular time. If I say to my son that he needs to do the dishes, that's not me telling my daughter that she needs to do the dishes too. Those commandments are part of an ancient covenant between Israel and the God of Israel. That's the context. To even zero in a little more, the Levitical code was for the Levitical priests. That stuff wasn't even for non-priests. When God told the priests how to perform a sacrifice, it wasn't telling a non-priest of the tribe of Dan how to do the sacrifice. Same concept with other commandments within the covenant. They are for a particular people.
So if I’m understanding you right. Those concepts/rules/covenants (whatever one wants to call them) weren’t meant for the everyday person to abide by but a very select subset of people?
 
There's no rationalizing needed (I was primary responding to the question of how he rationalizes the teachings to modern life) to claim to read Leviticus literally but also not follow the Levitical code.
I guess this is where I get lost. If it was literally true then (Ie you got stoned to death for collecting sticks on sabbath) why would that not stay true today? What does it being 2025 have to do with Levitical code? In other words, if it’s Gods word in 500bce why not in 2025?
Because it was God's word to a particular group of people in a particular place at a particular time. If I say to my son that he needs to do the dishes, that's not me telling my daughter that she needs to do the dishes too. Those commandments are part of an ancient covenant between Israel and the God of Israel. That's the context. To even zero in a little more, the Levitical code was for the Levitical priests. That stuff wasn't even for non-priests. When God told the priests how to perform a sacrifice, it wasn't telling a non-priest of the tribe of Dan how to do the sacrifice. Same concept with other commandments within the covenant. They are for a particular people.
So if I’m understanding you right. Those concepts/rules/covenants (whatever one wants to call them) weren’t meant for the everyday person to abide by but a very select subset of people?
Basically. They are the stipulations of a covenant and that covenant was between God and Israel. I wouldn't necessarily automatically conclude they DON"T apply to me, but I'd need some extra evidence that they do apply to me. Just saying they are in the Bible and they are God's word don't automatically make them binding on everyone, IMO.

This is a very common way to view Paul's letters. Those are regularly seen as letters between Paul and a particular church and, as letters, we should read them as such. He is addressing them directly and doesn't have an American in 2025 in mind. That's why you get arguments about how we need to understand what was going on in Ephesus or Corinth before we conclude that Paul was a woman-hater and that all churches today need to keep their women silent. I'm sure for some people that's just an argument to rationalize what they want to do, but it really is based on understanding Paul's intent (which is what I'd say was the inspired message or the word of God).
 
I can appreciate that. Even the verses I cited seem at odds with Jesus' typical message.
I see those specific verses as part of the larger pep talk that is going on to get the disciples to go out and do something that they would naturally be apprensive about. But I also see "Matthew" sprinkling in Old Testament stuff out of context, at least out of the context I believe that quotation of scripture concerns. Isn't the Micah reference being quoted generally believed to be about sacrificing children?
For me when it pertains to organized religion and the claim of “knowing” is where I have lots of problems.
I know that the odds are I've got lots of this wrong. As long as I got the part right that being wrong doesn't matter, then that's okay. If I am wrong about that then it still doesn't matter, just for a different reason
I appreciate your sentiment here very much because it loops back to what I see as the common theme of this thread which is that logic and reason will never get one to believe but faith will.
It is good for my soul to just state "I believe in crazy stuff". Stuff that is foreign to what we experience. Stuff that it is a fools earrand to try to get you to believe. The only messages I try to get you to adopt is that things just work better when we take care of each other. And that I hope that religion (in this context not the same as faith) doesn't get in the way. If Jesus has already paid for all our sins then there should be no need to be telling you that you still have a bill to pay, but instead you are free to try without worry that you'll end up with more debt.
.
Logic and reason are rooted in facts/evidence/data. They don't cross paths with faith/belief as faith/belief are positions people take beyond what logic and reason require.
So a somewhat typical Christian proof of the form-

1) State some questioned story from the Bible
2) Speculate ways that it might have possibly happened loosely tied to the narrative
3) Claim that since it could have happened then it must have happened exactly as it says in the Bible

is invalid? I mostly agree with you, but I think that logic and reason should, often it doesn't help frame and shape a belief. I mean it is bad enough to believe in crazy stuff like God dying and spending three days in hell, to add logically stupid stuff on top of that. (Yes, I know what I did here.)
A absolutely agree on the macro. When talking specific verses at face value with no context of the time/conditions, that's where I struggle.

Like the passage cranks brought up. I don't see it problematic at all. It highlights the seriousness of "no other gods before me" in very real terms. To me, that's all that passage is highlighting.
 
There are Dualists that believe the Old Testament was just for the Chosen People and the new testament was for gentiles, but then it makes no sense whatsoever that born agains would also be passionate young earthers.
You are close but not accurate. The actual truth is that Paul's writings are for the Gentiles and the rest of the Bible is for the jews.
 
PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO READ THIS. IT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT THING YOU COULD EVER DO AND IT ONLY TAKES A FEW MINUTES
ARE YOU 100% SURE THAT IF YOU DIED TODAY THAT YOU WOULD GO TO HEAVEN? (CLICK 'READ MORE')

There are some things that you should know:

1. Realize that you are a sinner and in need of a Savior:

Ro 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

Ro 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"

It all began when the first humans, Adam and Eve were created and God put them in the garden of Eden. God created them perfect to live in fellowship with Him. There was no death or sorrow. God told them not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They disobeyed God and as a result, sin entered into the world. The pain, which this world sees, is the result of sin.

2. Because of our sins, we die both spiritually and physically, but God sent His Son to die so that you can have a chance not to have to go to hell by accepting what He did on the cross:

Ro 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Ro 5:8 "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

Every person who has ever lived is a sinner and is not righteous because we do bad things. A sin is a crime against God, just as if you steal something at the store, it is punishable by going to jail. It's the same thing with sin. Lying, stealing, sex before marriage, pride, hatred, ect. are all sins. Hell is a prison for those who commit crimes against God. That's because you must be perfect in order to get to heaven. No matter how well you live your life from then on, you have already sinned, which will be punished if you are not pardoned. If you commit a crime, and then live as a good citizen you still will go to jail for the crime you committed. Right? Just as the President can pardon a crime so you won't go to jail, Jesus can pardon your sins so that you do not go to hell, and can go to heaven when you die. You won't have to pay for your own sins because Jesus already did that for you, But if you reject the pardon that He offers, you will have to pay for your own sins by going to hell. He is the only one qualified because He is the only one ever to live a sinless, perfect life.

3. If you will confess Jesus Christ as Your Lord, place your Faith in Him and Believe in your heart that He died, shed His blood and rose again as a sacrifice for your sins, you will be saved (to go to heaven)

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

You cannot get to heaven by being a good person, going to church, baptism or any other way other than by turning to Jesus, believing in your heart that He died on the cross and rose from the dead for your sins and placing your Faith in Him. While these are good things to do, some people believe that they will get to heaven, but your Faith must be in Christ and His sacrifice alone and nothing else, giving your life to Him.

Eph 2:8,9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Ro 10:9,10;13 "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved...For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

4. You must submit your life to Jesus Christ and His will in Faith, believing in your heart that He died and rose again shedding His blood to pay for your sins as a sacrifice to God. If you want to accept Jesus free gift of salvation, or if you have any doubts about whether or not you are going to heaven, YOU COULD HUMBLY PRAY SOMETHING LIKE THIS TO GOD FROM YOUR HEART IN FAITH:

"Dear Lord Jesus I know that I am a sinner and need you to save me. I believe that You are the Lord and believe in my heart that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead, shedding your blood as a Sacrifice for my sins. I turn to You as the only way of Salvation, I submit my life to you, I submit my will to yours, I place my Faith and Trust in You alone as Lord of my life, Please save me and I thank You for it, in Jesus holy name, Amen."

If you have truly placed your faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord, submitting your life to Him, you can know that you are a child of God and on your way to heaven. Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing church and follow in baptism.


Studying The Bible Is Essential To Christians Growth. Click Here To Walk Through The Bible Verse By Verse From The Beginning, In 25 Minute Lessons:

Shouldn’t you also give away most of your earthly possessions to the poor? Whole camel eye of the needle thing.
Does that apply to Joel Osteen Christians as well?
I'm not so sure that Joel Osteen preaches the gospel.
 
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PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO READ THIS. IT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT THING YOU COULD EVER DO AND IT ONLY TAKES A FEW MINUTES
ARE YOU 100% SURE THAT IF YOU DIED TODAY THAT YOU WOULD GO TO HEAVEN? (CLICK 'READ MORE')

There are some things that you should know:

1. Realize that you are a sinner and in need of a Savior:

Ro 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

Ro 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"

It all began when the first humans, Adam and Eve were created and God put them in the garden of Eden. God created them perfect to live in fellowship with Him. There was no death or sorrow. God told them not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They disobeyed God and as a result, sin entered into the world. The pain, which this world sees, is the result of sin.

2. Because of our sins, we die both spiritually and physically, but God sent His Son to die so that you can have a chance not to have to go to hell by accepting what He did on the cross:

Ro 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Ro 5:8 "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

Every person who has ever lived is a sinner and is not righteous because we do bad things. A sin is a crime against God, just as if you steal something at the store, it is punishable by going to jail. It's the same thing with sin. Lying, stealing, sex before marriage, pride, hatred, ect. are all sins. Hell is a prison for those who commit crimes against God. That's because you must be perfect in order to get to heaven. No matter how well you live your life from then on, you have already sinned, which will be punished if you are not pardoned. If you commit a crime, and then live as a good citizen you still will go to jail for the crime you committed. Right? Just as the President can pardon a crime so you won't go to jail, Jesus can pardon your sins so that you do not go to hell, and can go to heaven when you die. You won't have to pay for your own sins because Jesus already did that for you, But if you reject the pardon that He offers, you will have to pay for your own sins by going to hell. He is the only one qualified because He is the only one ever to live a sinless, perfect life.

3. If you will confess Jesus Christ as Your Lord, place your Faith in Him and Believe in your heart that He died, shed His blood and rose again as a sacrifice for your sins, you will be saved (to go to heaven)

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

You cannot get to heaven by being a good person, going to church, baptism or any other way other than by turning to Jesus, believing in your heart that He died on the cross and rose from the dead for your sins and placing your Faith in Him. While these are good things to do, some people believe that they will get to heaven, but your Faith must be in Christ and His sacrifice alone and nothing else, giving your life to Him.

Eph 2:8,9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Ro 10:9,10;13 "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved...For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

4. You must submit your life to Jesus Christ and His will in Faith, believing in your heart that He died and rose again shedding His blood to pay for your sins as a sacrifice to God. If you want to accept Jesus free gift of salvation, or if you have any doubts about whether or not you are going to heaven, YOU COULD HUMBLY PRAY SOMETHING LIKE THIS TO GOD FROM YOUR HEART IN FAITH:

"Dear Lord Jesus I know that I am a sinner and need you to save me. I believe that You are the Lord and believe in my heart that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead, shedding your blood as a Sacrifice for my sins. I turn to You as the only way of Salvation, I submit my life to you, I submit my will to yours, I place my Faith and Trust in You alone as Lord of my life, Please save me and I thank You for it, in Jesus holy name, Amen."

If you have truly placed your faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord, submitting your life to Him, you can know that you are a child of God and on your way to heaven. Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing church and follow in baptism.


Studying The Bible Is Essential To Christians Growth. Click Here To Walk Through The Bible Verse By Verse From The Beginning, In 25 Minute Lessons:

Shouldn’t you also give away most of your earthly possessions to the poor? Whole camel eye of the needle thing.
No you are referring to something that Jesus said to a rich man because the rich man had his faith in his riches rather than in God. So Jesus was addressing the root of his problem.
 
PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO READ THIS. IT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT THING YOU COULD EVER DO AND IT ONLY TAKES A FEW MINUTES
ARE YOU 100% SURE THAT IF YOU DIED TODAY THAT YOU WOULD GO TO HEAVEN? (CLICK 'READ MORE')

There are some things that you should know:

1. Realize that you are a sinner and in need of a Savior:

Ro 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

Ro 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"

It all began when the first humans, Adam and Eve were created and God put them in the garden of Eden. God created them perfect to live in fellowship with Him. There was no death or sorrow. God told them not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They disobeyed God and as a result, sin entered into the world. The pain, which this world sees, is the result of sin.

2. Because of our sins, we die both spiritually and physically, but God sent His Son to die so that you can have a chance not to have to go to hell by accepting what He did on the cross:

Ro 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Ro 5:8 "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

Every person who has ever lived is a sinner and is not righteous because we do bad things. A sin is a crime against God, just as if you steal something at the store, it is punishable by going to jail. It's the same thing with sin. Lying, stealing, sex before marriage, pride, hatred, ect. are all sins. Hell is a prison for those who commit crimes against God. That's because you must be perfect in order to get to heaven. No matter how well you live your life from then on, you have already sinned, which will be punished if you are not pardoned. If you commit a crime, and then live as a good citizen you still will go to jail for the crime you committed. Right? Just as the President can pardon a crime so you won't go to jail, Jesus can pardon your sins so that you do not go to hell, and can go to heaven when you die. You won't have to pay for your own sins because Jesus already did that for you, But if you reject the pardon that He offers, you will have to pay for your own sins by going to hell. He is the only one qualified because He is the only one ever to live a sinless, perfect life.

3. If you will confess Jesus Christ as Your Lord, place your Faith in Him and Believe in your heart that He died, shed His blood and rose again as a sacrifice for your sins, you will be saved (to go to heaven)

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

You cannot get to heaven by being a good person, going to church, baptism or any other way other than by turning to Jesus, believing in your heart that He died on the cross and rose from the dead for your sins and placing your Faith in Him. While these are good things to do, some people believe that they will get to heaven, but your Faith must be in Christ and His sacrifice alone and nothing else, giving your life to Him.

Eph 2:8,9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Ro 10:9,10;13 "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved...For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

4. You must submit your life to Jesus Christ and His will in Faith, believing in your heart that He died and rose again shedding His blood to pay for your sins as a sacrifice to God. If you want to accept Jesus free gift of salvation, or if you have any doubts about whether or not you are going to heaven, YOU COULD HUMBLY PRAY SOMETHING LIKE THIS TO GOD FROM YOUR HEART IN FAITH:

"Dear Lord Jesus I know that I am a sinner and need you to save me. I believe that You are the Lord and believe in my heart that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead, shedding your blood as a Sacrifice for my sins. I turn to You as the only way of Salvation, I submit my life to you, I submit my will to yours, I place my Faith and Trust in You alone as Lord of my life, Please save me and I thank You for it, in Jesus holy name, Amen."

If you have truly placed your faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord, submitting your life to Him, you can know that you are a child of God and on your way to heaven. Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing church and follow in baptism.


Studying The Bible Is Essential To Christians Growth. Click Here To Walk Through The Bible Verse By Verse From The Beginning, In 25 Minute Lessons:

Shouldn’t you also give away most of your earthly possessions to the poor? Whole camel eye of the needle thing.
No you are referring to something that Jesus said to a rich man because the rich man had his faith in his riches rather than in God. So Jesus was addressing the root of his problem
Hmm, I'm still not seeing anything related to the point I was trying to make. Maybe I argued against a point you weren't making and I just confused things. And we might be using certain words differently. It's all good.
I guess I’m not really understanding your point. He has made it clear he takes the Bible literally at its word. With very little, if any, interpretation. He’s said this over and over again, including in the posts I linked above. Because of this I asked very specific questions of that literalness to which I’m still awaiting his answers on.

You’re a very thoughtful and intelligent poster, so I’m really not sure why this isn’t clear or where our disconnect is.
The Bible is to be taken literally but there are parts where God uses allegory but the allegories always have literal meaning. Revelation has a lot of them. The Bible will interpret itself. One thing that it doesn't do is it does not say one thing and mean another thing. For instance when it talks about hell it means that there's a literal place of Torment. God is not trying to fool us.
 
Shouldn’t you also give away most of your earthly possessions to the poor? Whole camel eye of the needle thing.
Does that apply to Joel Osteen Christians as well?
I'm not so sure that Joel Osteen preaches the gospel.
Yeah I definitely understand why people belong to a faith, but I genuinely am at a loss as to why people follow Osteen. He's like the Dallas Cowboys of Christian faiths.
 
I appreciate your sentiment here very much because it loops back to what I see as the common theme of this thread which is that logic and reason will never get one to believe but faith will.
It is good for my soul to just state "I believe in crazy stuff". Stuff that is foreign to what we experience. Stuff that it is a fools earrand to try to get you to believe. The only messages I try to get you to adopt is that things just work better when we take care of each other. And that I hope that religion (in this context not the same as faith) doesn't get in the way. If Jesus has already paid for all our sins then there should be no need to be telling you that you still have a bill to pay, but instead you are free to try without worry that you'll end up with more debt.
.
The bold also illustrates a key point/takeaway from this thread. Many of us non-believers very much agree with the bold and do not rationalize that a belief in G/god is necessary to support it. In other words, it's reasonable and logical that civilization is collectively better served with the bold and the fear or direction of some deity isn't necessary to achieve the same.

This is actually one of the few points from a believer that gets under my skin. I've a few times heard a devout believer claim that non-believers cannot be trusted because they lack any sort of moral code or belief. That's just a myopic position to me and I find it insulting. I don't need to believe in God to think that the Commandments (the ones not focused on God's jealousy) make a ton of sense to live by.
 
Yeah, it's key to notice he's quoting Micah. He could be using it out of context as a way to grab fitting and familiar language to make his point (like how we might quote song lyrics to express our emotions even if the song isn't really about what we're going through). He could also be pointing to the context of God's salvation. It's a typical Jewish method that the verse that's quoted isn't the actual point of the quotation. The next verse is about waiting for God's salvation and Jesus' name is the word for salvation. It appears the Talmud even talks about the Micah verse about sons and fathers and daughters and mothers as being something that will happen in Messianic times, so it could be a claim of histMessiahship. The Matthew verse is also pretty consistent with rabbinic culture in that a disciple was considered closer to their rabbi than their own father.
The Micah passage is in the context that things have "gone to hell in a hand basket" as one misery after another is listed. But then the very next verse swings things to hope and then faith. If I were to believe that the typical first century Jew, either early with Jesus or late with Matthew's audience were really familiar with the scripture then I might argue that Jesus and/or Matthew were doing the same thing I often do and just starting a thought and allowing the audience finish it. But I wonder? I don't doubt that those yearning for a Messiah were more familiar with those prophecies then someone like me, I just wonder if they were so familiar that they would make the connection from the verse given to the next one-
But as for me, I will look to the Lord; I will wait for the God of my salvation; my God will hear me.
I could see this either way.
 
Shouldn’t you also give away most of your earthly possessions to the poor? Whole camel eye of the needle thing.
Does that apply to Joel Osteen Christians as well?
I'm not so sure that Joel Osteen preaches the gospel.
Yeah I definitely understand why people belong to a faith, but I genuinely am at a loss as to why people follow Osteen. He's like the Dallas Cowboys of Christian faiths.
This one is rather simple. He take the "prosperity gospel" approach. And that approach is very much feels over everything else. It's not a wholistic approach to Biblical teaching and only focuses on the positive messages. The harder life lessons we need to understand are often minimized if not flat out ignored.
 
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I appreciate your sentiment here very much because it loops back to what I see as the common theme of this thread which is that logic and reason will never get one to believe but faith will.
It is good for my soul to just state "I believe in crazy stuff". Stuff that is foreign to what we experience. Stuff that it is a fools earrand to try to get you to believe. The only messages I try to get you to adopt is that things just work better when we take care of each other. And that I hope that religion (in this context not the same as faith) doesn't get in the way. If Jesus has already paid for all our sins then there should be no need to be telling you that you still have a bill to pay, but instead you are free to try without worry that you'll end up with more debt.
.
The bold also illustrates a key point/takeaway from this thread. Many of us non-believers very much agree with the bold and do not rationalize that a belief in G/god is necessary to support it. In other words, it's reasonable and logical that civilization is collectively better served with the bold and the fear or direction of some deity isn't necessary to achieve the same.

This is actually one of the few points from a believer that gets under my skin. I've a few times heard a devout believer claim that non-believers cannot be trusted because they lack any sort of moral code or belief. That's just a myopic position to me and I find it insulting. I don't need to believe in God to think that the Commandments (the ones not focused on God's jealousy) make a ton of sense to live by.
I DO believe the Bible provides the perfect illustration (Jesus) of the bold though and I'm not sure that illustration is found anywhere else. That's not to say people can't strive for it on their own or even accomplish most of it on their own which would likely be "good enough" for most.
 
Shouldn’t you also give away most of your earthly possessions to the poor? Whole camel eye of the needle thing.
Does that apply to Joel Osteen Christians as well?
I'm not so sure that Joel Osteen preaches the gospel.
Yeah I definitely understand why people belong to a faith, but I genuinely am at a loss as to why people follow Osteen. He's like the Dallas Cowboys of Christian faiths.
This one is rather simple. He take the "prosperity gospel" approach. And that approach is very much feels over everything else. It's not a wholistic approach to Biblical teaching and only focuses on the positive messages. The harder life lessons we need to understand are often minimized if not flat out ignored.
So, in short, he's like a snake oil salesman selling good feelings and that blinds his congregation's eyes to the fact he has like 5 private planes?
 
For instance when it talks about hell it means that there's a literal place of Torment.
The Bible says over and over that "hell" is ANYWHERE God is not. Obviously, his absence has consequences. So, if I am a non believer and God leaves earth. Earth becomes "hell". I haven't found one single explanation/description of hell that isn't clearly a person attempting to describe what that might look like. Revelation is full of examples of this.
 
Shouldn’t you also give away most of your earthly possessions to the poor? Whole camel eye of the needle thing.
Does that apply to Joel Osteen Christians as well?
I'm not so sure that Joel Osteen preaches the gospel.
Yeah I definitely understand why people belong to a faith, but I genuinely am at a loss as to why people follow Osteen. He's like the Dallas Cowboys of Christian faiths.
This one is rather simple. He take the "prosperity gospel" approach. And that approach is very much feels over everything else. It's not a wholistic approach to Biblical teaching and only focuses on the positive messages. The harder life lessons we need to understand are often minimized if not flat out ignored.
So, in short, he's like a snake oil salesman selling good feelings and that blinds his congregation's eyes to the fact he has like 5 private planes?
Pretty much. Back in the day with Tammy Fae and Jim, the televangelists would use that fear of punishment as the motivator. Osteen simply uses the other side of that coin in his approach. They aren't very different IMO.
 
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Yeah, it's key to notice he's quoting Micah. He could be using it out of context as a way to grab fitting and familiar language to make his point (like how we might quote song lyrics to express our emotions even if the song isn't really about what we're going through). He could also be pointing to the context of God's salvation. It's a typical Jewish method that the verse that's quoted isn't the actual point of the quotation. The next verse is about waiting for God's salvation and Jesus' name is the word for salvation. It appears the Talmud even talks about the Micah verse about sons and fathers and daughters and mothers as being something that will happen in Messianic times, so it could be a claim of his Messiahship. The Matthew verse is also pretty consistent with rabbinic culture in that a disciple was considered closer to their rabbi than their own father.
The Micah passage is in the context that things have "gone to hell in a hand basket" as one misery after another is listed. But then the very next verse swings things to hope and then faith. If I were to believe that the typical first century Jew, either early with Jesus or late with Matthew's audience were really familiar with the scripture then I might argue that Jesus and/or Matthew were doing the same thing I often do and just starting a thought and allowing the audience finish it. But I wonder? I don't doubt that those yearning for a Messiah were more familiar with those prophecies then someone like me, I just wonder if they were so familiar that they would make the connection from the verse given to the next one-
But as for me, I will look to the Lord; I will wait for the God of my salvation; my God will hear me.
I could see this either way.
Yeah, I'll admit that I probably overestimate how many people would have something like Micah memorized, but I do understand that to be a typical method used by Second Temple, Rabbinic, Qumran, and NT authors. Some scholars probably romanticize what things were like for the average 1st century Jew, but I'm pretty confident they (even young boys) were much more familiar than 99% of people today. While everyone wouldn't be able to finish Matthew's quote, I think quite a few could. And, since his Gospel would have most likely been read aloud in a group, plenty of people (probably including the one reading) would be able to point out where the quote is from, what comes next, and what the overall context was.
 
Shouldn’t you also give away most of your earthly possessions to the poor? Whole camel eye of the needle thing.
Does that apply to Joel Osteen Christians as well?
I'm not so sure that Joel Osteen preaches the gospel.
Yeah I definitely understand why people belong to a faith, but I genuinely am at a loss as to why people follow Osteen. He's like the Dallas Cowboys of Christian faiths.
This one is rather simple. He take the "prosperity gospel" approach. And that approach is very much feels over everything else. It's not a wholistic approach to Biblical teaching and only focuses on the positive messages. The harder life lessons we need to understand are often minimized if not flat out ignored.
So basically a bunch of BS?
 
PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO READ THIS. IT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT THING YOU COULD EVER DO AND IT ONLY TAKES A FEW MINUTES
ARE YOU 100% SURE THAT IF YOU DIED TODAY THAT YOU WOULD GO TO HEAVEN? (CLICK 'READ MORE')

There are some things that you should know:

1. Realize that you are a sinner and in need of a Savior:

Ro 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

Ro 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"

It all began when the first humans, Adam and Eve were created and God put them in the garden of Eden. God created them perfect to live in fellowship with Him. There was no death or sorrow. God told them not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They disobeyed God and as a result, sin entered into the world. The pain, which this world sees, is the result of sin.

2. Because of our sins, we die both spiritually and physically, but God sent His Son to die so that you can have a chance not to have to go to hell by accepting what He did on the cross:

Ro 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Ro 5:8 "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

Every person who has ever lived is a sinner and is not righteous because we do bad things. A sin is a crime against God, just as if you steal something at the store, it is punishable by going to jail. It's the same thing with sin. Lying, stealing, sex before marriage, pride, hatred, ect. are all sins. Hell is a prison for those who commit crimes against God. That's because you must be perfect in order to get to heaven. No matter how well you live your life from then on, you have already sinned, which will be punished if you are not pardoned. If you commit a crime, and then live as a good citizen you still will go to jail for the crime you committed. Right? Just as the President can pardon a crime so you won't go to jail, Jesus can pardon your sins so that you do not go to hell, and can go to heaven when you die. You won't have to pay for your own sins because Jesus already did that for you, But if you reject the pardon that He offers, you will have to pay for your own sins by going to hell. He is the only one qualified because He is the only one ever to live a sinless, perfect life.

3. If you will confess Jesus Christ as Your Lord, place your Faith in Him and Believe in your heart that He died, shed His blood and rose again as a sacrifice for your sins, you will be saved (to go to heaven)

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

You cannot get to heaven by being a good person, going to church, baptism or any other way other than by turning to Jesus, believing in your heart that He died on the cross and rose from the dead for your sins and placing your Faith in Him. While these are good things to do, some people believe that they will get to heaven, but your Faith must be in Christ and His sacrifice alone and nothing else, giving your life to Him.

Eph 2:8,9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Ro 10:9,10;13 "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved...For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

4. You must submit your life to Jesus Christ and His will in Faith, believing in your heart that He died and rose again shedding His blood to pay for your sins as a sacrifice to God. If you want to accept Jesus free gift of salvation, or if you have any doubts about whether or not you are going to heaven, YOU COULD HUMBLY PRAY SOMETHING LIKE THIS TO GOD FROM YOUR HEART IN FAITH:

"Dear Lord Jesus I know that I am a sinner and need you to save me. I believe that You are the Lord and believe in my heart that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead, shedding your blood as a Sacrifice for my sins. I turn to You as the only way of Salvation, I submit my life to you, I submit my will to yours, I place my Faith and Trust in You alone as Lord of my life, Please save me and I thank You for it, in Jesus holy name, Amen."

If you have truly placed your faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord, submitting your life to Him, you can know that you are a child of God and on your way to heaven. Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing church and follow in baptism.


Studying The Bible Is Essential To Christians Growth. Click Here To Walk Through The Bible Verse By Verse From The Beginning, In 25 Minute Lessons:

Shouldn’t you also give away most of your earthly possessions to the poor? Whole camel eye of the needle thing.
Does that apply to Joel Osteen Christians as well?
I'm not so sure that Joel Osteen preaches the gospel.
I believe he preaches it but lives his life by an entirely different code like most Christians
 
Shouldn’t you also give away most of your earthly possessions to the poor? Whole camel eye of the needle thing.
Does that apply to Joel Osteen Christians as well?
I'm not so sure that Joel Osteen preaches the gospel.
Yeah I definitely understand why people belong to a faith, but I genuinely am at a loss as to why people follow Osteen. He's like the Dallas Cowboys of Christian faiths.
This one is rather simple. He take the "prosperity gospel" approach. And that approach is very much feels over everything else. It's not a wholistic approach to Biblical teaching and only focuses on the positive messages. The harder life lessons we need to understand are often minimized if not flat out ignored.
So basically a bunch of BS?
What he's saying isn't inaccurate, but it's only part of the story that we need to understand. My dad showed me an episode of Friends where the one girl's mom only let her watch the happy parts of movies. She obviously had a warped understanding of those movies. He does the same thing.
 
Well, I believe that those that allegorize the Bible, are using it as an excuse to change the actual meaning of what is saying into what THEY want to believe. There are some allegories in the Bible, but they are always interpreted by the Bible itself and always have a literal meaning. For the most part, it says what it means and means what it says. God isn't trying to hide things from.people who are sincere in knowing the truth, but He has been known to hide things from those who don't really trust in Him or His Word. Those who would create God in their own image, rather than conforming to the image of Christ. The Bible interprets itself.

@Paddington - sincere request, & I hope you will find the time to give this a thoughtful response…

I am curious to know how you have experienced the gospel. What was your life like before you met Jesus? After you became a professing Christian, how did your life change? In what ways does the gospel still impact your life, ______ years after you began to follow Christ?

Thanks in advance for sharing your personal testimony.

🦗🦗

Oh well.

Anyone else want to share?



I didn't grow up in the church. My faith journey was rather circuitous, a combination of doing a lot of reading, encountering a series of people whom God placed in my life, searching for something that answered the same existential questions I think every human faces.

Why am I he? Is there a point to life? Is there something beyond what I can see, touch, feel, taste, smell? How does my life - one of 8 billion people currently on the planet - matter at all?

I made a decision for Christ when I was 14, all because an awkward ,overweight neighbor kid (think his mom put him up to it) named Rusty invited me to his youth group. He wasn't much of a salesman but when he name checked a few cute girls I knew so I decided to give it a shot. For a good three years there were almost a score of people who had been nudging me toward Jesus. A YMCA camp counselor/caretaker who gave me my first bible. My maternal grandmother asking me open ended questions. The granddaughter of Norman Rockwell taking me to a 3-day Christian music festival (I was in 8th grade, she and her girlfriends were about to go off to university.)

Anyway, I became a Christ follower in what I think is one of the most uncomfortable ways. I went forward to the front of a revival tent at the conclusion of a sermon. I was ushered backstage, and the young man assigned to me and my friend Mark went through a formulaic tract. Honestly not sure if it was the Roman road, The bridge, or the Four Spiritual Laws (think it was the latter.) We prayed "the sinner's prayer." Boom diggity, on my way to glory.

I was really fortunate to have a terrific youth group leader and a pastor who took an interest in my discipleship. One demonstrated the love of God, the latter took me on a deep dive of foundational theology that lasted several years. They both left indelible imprints on my life.

I had a lot of fits and starts. Becoming a Christian seemed the easy part. Walking with Jesus seemed like a struggle. I've heard it said sanctification is a long game of wack-a-mole. To this day I am disappointed in my proclivity to fall into all manner of sin: idolatry, selfishness, unhealthy ambition, the glaring need for the approval of others. I am forever at war with my own flesh sin nature.

Even the Apostle Paul, after decades of following Jesus, wrote this in Romans 7:

For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.

and

So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.

White knuckle Christianity can be exhausting. I am so grateful God is gracious. He does not look upon us in judgement and condemnation. We all have limits, right? Like if you have had personal experience with an addict or alcoholic, it's tempting to just throw in the towel - the roller coaster cycle of addiction is heartbreaking, it can feel like too much. But God is not like men. He does not want anyone to perish, he desires to be in fellowship with you.

Galatians 5

You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

Whom the son sets free is free indeed.



Before I became a Christian, I lived for myself alone. After I started following Jesus, I became a new creature with new desires. Yet it would be dishonest to say I stopped having lustful thoughts or stopped thinking about how to maximize my earnings or did things simply because I wanted to or it felt good.

The funny thing is, the longer you follow Jesus, the more obedient you become, the more he permeates every area of your life.....the more I realize what a wretch I am. Many have written about this phenomenon and can articulate it better than I. We as believers have a deep desire to please God - yet the better we become at following the law, or however you want to phrase that, the more apparent it becomes that on my best day it's filthy rags to a holy God.

Yet in Christ, we have this great exchange....he took upon himself our sins, and we received the righteousness of Christ.

God doesn't look at a believer and recall all the disappointments and failures. Instead, the Bible says he throws our sin as far as the east is from the west, into a sea of forgetfulness, and instead sees in us the righteousness of our savoir.



White knuckle Christianity - trying to live perfect lives in order to please God - that to me is the epitome of religion. It is the ultimate "thanks for saving me, God, but I've got this part. I'll just practice disciplines daily to train myself to be obedient."

I abhor religion. Self-righteousness, cleaning to clean yourself up to be worthy of approval, trying to be a good person - those are lies straight from the pit.

We desire to live for Jesus and follow him because he first loved us. But there is nothing I contributed to my salvation except the sin that made it necessary in the first place.

The five solas of the reformation are the most succinct statement I know of when trying to explain what it means to be a Christ follower.
  1. Sola Fide Through Faith Alone
  2. Sola Gratia Saved by Grace Alone
  3. Solus Christus In Christ Alone
  4. Sola Scriptura According to Scripture Alone
  5. Soli Deo Gloria For the Glory of God Alone
Thank you for reading my TedTalk.
 
I just watched this Olsteen sermon. Dude gives a positive motivational message kinda like Tony Robbins with a Bible. I see no problem with what he's doing or that he makes a ton of money. Ken Copeland, OTOH...
 
I just watched this Olsteen sermon. Dude gives a positive motivational message kinda like Tony Robbins with a Bible. I see no problem with what he's doing or that he makes a ton of money. Ken Copeland, OTOH...

Oh yeah, he's super positive.

He doesn't actually exegete scripture, but definitely makes people feel better about themselves.



Joel Osteen has a high school diploma.

He attended Oral Roberts University, intending to major in communications. AFAIK, he left before graduating. Founded the television production of his father's weekly sermon at Lakewood.

At some point, papa ordained his son - who has no formal biblical training.

What a time to be alive.
 
I just watched this Olsteen sermon. Dude gives a positive motivational message kinda like Tony Robbins with a Bible. I see no problem with what he's doing or that he makes a ton of money. Ken Copeland, OTOH...

Oh yeah, he's super positive.

He doesn't actually exegete scripture, but definitely makes people feel better about themselves.



Joel Osteen has a high school diploma.

He attended Oral Roberts University, intending to major in communications. AFAIK, he left before graduating. Founded the television production of his father's weekly sermon at Lakewood.

At some point, papa ordained his son - who has no formal biblical training.

What a time to be alive.
As I asked Sparky above, what of importance is he leaving out?
 
What he's saying isn't inaccurate, but it's only part of the story that we need to understand
What is he leaving out that "we need to understand"?
Mostly the consequence side of our eternal lives without God in it. The reality that while it's true that God will always answer your prayers, a lot of times they won't be in ways you like and will make you uncomfortable/sad/etc.
 
Mostly the consequence side of our eternal lives without God in it. The reality that while it's true that God will always answer your prayers, a lot of times they won't be in ways you like and will make you uncomfortable/sad/etc.
Could it be argued that all preachers leave important things out of their sermons or that certain parts are emphasized more than others?
 
Mostly the consequence side of our eternal lives without God in it. The reality that while it's true that God will always answer your prayers, a lot of times they won't be in ways you like and will make you uncomfortable/sad/etc.
Could it be argued that all preachers leave important things out of their sermons or that certain parts are emphasized more than others?

No. Not all. Can't speak for others, but the Calvary Chapel mega-church movement was founded by Chuck Smith, who taught the bible - genesis to revelation, verse by verse, start to finish, for as long as the church is churching. When a pastor teaches the last amen, next Sunday it's in the beginning. There's over 1500 Calvary Chapels and while every pastor may not stick to the program perfectly, some do. Mine did. He didn't even skip all the begetting and begotting names. He did his research and found applicable sermons to apply from some of the names.

As for the Osteens and Copelands that same said pastor would call them out when he got to the Matthew 7 bit warning about false prophets being wolves in sheep's clothing. He might get at them again when Jesus turns over the money lending tables in the temple calling the Pharisees hypocrites. And again when Jesus says to watch out that none deceive you for many will come in his name.
 
He might get at them again when Jesus turns over the money lending tables ...
And yet people argue that Jesus was innocent, was not guilty of insurrection. This was more than enough. Palm Sunday would have been enough. Now maybe being guilty at the local level is not the same as sin, especially when doing your will is doing God's will and Jesus was innocent in this respect, but he was guilty from both the Sadducees and Roman law for behavior in the Temple. In fact, it is almost impossible to believe that Jesus would have ever gotten back out of the Temple performing such a stunt. For that you probably need an act of God.
 
Shouldn’t you also give away most of your earthly possessions to the poor? Whole camel eye of the needle thing.
Does that apply to Joel Osteen Christians as well?
I'm not so sure that Joel Osteen preaches the gospel.
Yeah I definitely understand why people belong to a faith, but I genuinely am at a loss as to why people follow Osteen. He's like the Dallas Cowboys of Christian faiths.
People follow Osteen because he's a motivational speaker rather than they minister of the word of God from what I gather.
 
Shouldn’t you also give away most of your earthly possessions to the poor? Whole camel eye of the needle thing.
Does that apply to Joel Osteen Christians as well?
I'm not so sure that Joel Osteen preaches the gospel.
Yeah I definitely understand why people belong to a faith, but I genuinely am at a loss as to why people follow Osteen. He's like the Dallas Cowboys of Christian faiths.
This one is rather simple. He take the "prosperity gospel" approach. And that approach is very much feels over everything else. It's not a wholistic approach to Biblical teaching and only focuses on the positive messages. The harder life lessons we need to understand are often minimized if not flat out ignored.
I tend to agree
 
For instance when it talks about hell it means that there's a literal place of Torment.
The Bible says over and over that "hell" is ANYWHERE God is not. Obviously, his absence has consequences. So, if I am a non believer and God leaves earth. Earth becomes "hell". I haven't found one single explanation/description of hell that isn't clearly a person attempting to describe what that might look like. Revelation is full of examples of this.
It doesn't say that in the Bible. The word that is translated hell is actually a few words. Hades is one such word which means the place of the dead. If you look at the context in which it is used it's very obvious that it is a place of torment. Gahanna is another one. The Lake of Fire is the final judgment for an unbelievers. It is very clear that it is eternal.

Revelation 20:10 NIV
[10] And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20
[11] Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. [12] And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. [13] The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. [14] Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. [15] Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Luke 16:23-28 NIV
[23] In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. [24] So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ [25] “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. [26] And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ [27] “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, [28] for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment."

These passages of are a literal torment in literal flames. There's no allegory or it would tell you
 
The Bible is to be taken literally but there are parts where God uses allegory but the allegories always have literal meaning. Revelation has a lot of them. The Bible will interpret itself. One thing that it doesn't do is it does not say one thing and mean another thing. For instance when it talks about hell it means that there's a literal place of Torment. God is not trying to fool us.

Thanks and appreciate the reply. But it doesn’t answer the follow up questions I asked (below). What are your viewpoints in regards to those?

Thanks. So, putting aside the angry vengeful God thing, where do you line up with the Old Testament and its (God’s) expectations of how we manage crime and punishment? For example, I assume you don’t wear clothes made of 2 different times of cloth or eat pork and shellfish. Do you agree one should be stoned to death if they cheat on their spouse, or blasphemy, or work on sabbath?
 
There are Dualists that believe the Old Testament was just for the Chosen People and the new testament was for gentiles, but then it makes no sense whatsoever that born agains would also be passionate young earthers.
You are close but not accurate. The actual truth is that Paul's writings are for the Gentiles and the rest of the Bible is for the jews.
So the gospels are for the Jews? They aren't Paul's writings, are they?

What do you dispute about the views of dualists?

You do understand that Paul wrote to both Jews and gentiles, right?

(let's set aside that half the letters attributed to Paul weren't written by Paul)
 
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