How To Get To Heaven When You Die. Read The First Post. Then Q&A Discussion. Ask Questions Here! (3 Viewers)

[Sparky Polastri]

None of this makes any sense to me. God provided Jesus Christ as our ticket to eternal life with him VIA his GRACE so that we can focus on the here and now and live as examples.

Or another viewpoint (to the portion I quoted), as a get out of jail free card. Act how ever badly you like, literally, but be repentful in the end and accept Jesus and it’s all good.
That make no sense to me and from my viewpoint shows the massive flaw in the Christian faith.

How would it make sense to you? You have very little to no insight into a person's heart or what their relationship with God is. None of us do. This is where grace comes in. We don't see it a lot among each other as humans, but we do see it. I do have to confess I get confused by why this is a "flaw". The faith is centered around grace, sacrifice and forgiveness. It's hard for me to understand why a blatant example of that would be a flaw.

I call it a flaw because…. On one hand you can have Hilter, someone who brutally oversees the torture and murder of millions of people, but in his day realizes he was wrong and accepts Jesus. Boom. Heaven and eternal reward. On the other hand a person who has lived a righteous life, caring for others and by every definition we know is a good person. But for whatever reason (lack of knowledge, belief, etc etc) doesn’t accept Jesus as lord a savior. Off to eternal damnation and torture you go. If that’s not a flaw in the belief system of a loving God, I don’t know what is.

Of course. You're on the outside looking in. You have no way of knowing what the relationship between "person" and God or Hitler and God is. Those relationships and the grace within are what matters.

So where is the “grace” and “love” for those of us unlucky enough to be on the “outside looking in”. We either have to choose to believe (even if we don’t) or be damned?

When people ask me this question, I don't know what to tell them outside of pointing out that it's a choice to reject that grace and love.

So fair and loving.

How could leaving it completely up to you be any more fair or loving? You have complete control to do as you choose.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

How could leaving it completely up to you be any more fair or loving? You have complete control to do as you choose.

First, Ephesians 2:8 explicitly states that "you" do not have control over the choice as faith itself is a gift. I mean I get that most Christians will argue that the gift is grace - and that is fine, but then faith would be "from yourself" which contradicts the message. Either grace is 100% a gift from God that you can do nothing to earn or lose, or it is not. If it is gained or lost due to faith, due to belief then it is "from yourself". And by definition not Grace. So, while one can read this passage to mean just Grace if the words don't mean anything, but if the words do have meaning faith is also a gift and you are not in control of this decision.

Second, assuming God's word simply needed a better editor and the standard idea that faith is up to you is correct and I was wrong, then for it to be fair to make a choice that determines our eternity then we would need more complete set of information. Sorry, but the self-serving "all that needs to be said" passages of the Bible are demonstratable to be incorrect by just looking at those honestly trying to figure this out and ending up on the wrong side. So, this is hardly fair at all.

And I am a believer. I just have more faith that God is the loving, full of grace version and not the flawed version of human lack of imagination on the full meaning of the words they throw around version.

 

[BrutalPenguin]

The fact that 68% of humans have decided against choosing Christianity leads me to believe it's not an obvious choice, yet it has drastic consequences if damnation is the alternative.

 

[dkp993]

None of this makes any sense to me. God provided Jesus Christ as our ticket to eternal life with him VIA his GRACE so that we can focus on the here and now and live as examples.

Or another viewpoint (to the portion I quoted), as a get out of jail free card. Act how ever badly you like, literally, but be repentful in the end and accept Jesus and it’s all good.
That make no sense to me and from my viewpoint shows the massive flaw in the Christian faith.

How would it make sense to you? You have very little to no insight into a person's heart or what their relationship with God is. None of us do. This is where grace comes in. We don't see it a lot among each other as humans, but we do see it. I do have to confess I get confused by why this is a "flaw". The faith is centered around grace, sacrifice and forgiveness. It's hard for me to understand why a blatant example of that would be a flaw.

I call it a flaw because…. On one hand you can have Hilter, someone who brutally oversees the torture and murder of millions of people, but in his day realizes he was wrong and accepts Jesus. Boom. Heaven and eternal reward. On the other hand a person who has lived a righteous life, caring for others and by every definition we know is a good person. But for whatever reason (lack of knowledge, belief, etc etc) doesn’t accept Jesus as lord a savior. Off to eternal damnation and torture you go. If that’s not a flaw in the belief system of a loving God, I don’t know what is.

Of course. You're on the outside looking in. You have no way of knowing what the relationship between "person" and God or Hitler and God is. Those relationships and the grace within are what matters.

So where is the “grace” and “love” for those of us unlucky enough to be on the “outside looking in”. We either have to choose to believe (even if we don’t) or be damned?

When people ask me this question, I don't know what to tell them outside of pointing out that it's a choice to reject that grace and love.

So fair and loving.

How could leaving it completely up to you be any more fair or loving? You have complete control to do as you choose.

Would you feel this same way if I substituted “God” for “Aliens”? In other words your “souls” eternity rested on your requirement to believe in aliens today. How about Buddha? Or Ra? Or any other of the hundreds of Gods that people have believed in?

 

[Terminalxylem]

The fact that 68% of humans have decided against choosing Christianity leads me to believe it's not an obvious choice, yet it has drastic consequences if damnation is the alternative.

Probably even less than that, when one considers the history of humanity vs. Christianity.

 

[Sparky Polastri]

How could leaving it completely up to you be any more fair or loving? You have complete control to do as you choose.

First, Ephesians 2:8 explicitly states that "you" do not have control over the choice as faith itself is a gift. I mean I get that most Christians will argue that the gift is grace - and that is fine, but then faith would be "from yourself" which contradicts the message. Either grace is 100% a gift from God that you can do nothing to earn or lose, or it is not. If it is gained or lost due to faith, due to belief then it is "from yourself". And by definition not Grace. So, while one can read this passage to mean just Grace if the words don't mean anything, but if the words do have meaning faith is also a gift and you are not in control of this decision.

Second, assuming God's word simply needed a better editor and the standard idea that faith is up to you is correct and I was wrong, then for it to be fair to make a choice that determines our eternity then we would need more complete set of information. Sorry, but the self-serving "all that needs to be said" passages of the Bible are demonstratable to be incorrect by just looking at those honestly trying to figure this out and ending up on the wrong side. So, this is hardly fair at all.

And I am a believer. I just have more faith that God is the loving, full of grace version and not the flawed version of human lack of imagination on the full meaning of the words they throw around version.

Not sure I am following. His grace is not forced on us. It's true that we have to do nothing to earn it and its presented to all. It's also true that you don't have to take it. That's your choice.

It can also be true/possible that one has the faith by default but no willingness to cultivate it, so it just sits there while you drift further and further from the relationship. Maybe that's more along the lines of what you're saying? But there's still a choice you own in that.

 

[Sparky Polastri]

None of this makes any sense to me. God provided Jesus Christ as our ticket to eternal life with him VIA his GRACE so that we can focus on the here and now and live as examples.

Or another viewpoint (to the portion I quoted), as a get out of jail free card. Act how ever badly you like, literally, but be repentful in the end and accept Jesus and it’s all good.
That make no sense to me and from my viewpoint shows the massive flaw in the Christian faith.

How would it make sense to you? You have very little to no insight into a person's heart or what their relationship with God is. None of us do. This is where grace comes in. We don't see it a lot among each other as humans, but we do see it. I do have to confess I get confused by why this is a "flaw". The faith is centered around grace, sacrifice and forgiveness. It's hard for me to understand why a blatant example of that would be a flaw.

I call it a flaw because…. On one hand you can have Hilter, someone who brutally oversees the torture and murder of millions of people, but in his day realizes he was wrong and accepts Jesus. Boom. Heaven and eternal reward. On the other hand a person who has lived a righteous life, caring for others and by every definition we know is a good person. But for whatever reason (lack of knowledge, belief, etc etc) doesn’t accept Jesus as lord a savior. Off to eternal damnation and torture you go. If that’s not a flaw in the belief system of a loving God, I don’t know what is.

Of course. You're on the outside looking in. You have no way of knowing what the relationship between "person" and God or Hitler and God is. Those relationships and the grace within are what matters.

So where is the “grace” and “love” for those of us unlucky enough to be on the “outside looking in”. We either have to choose to believe (even if we don’t) or be damned?

When people ask me this question, I don't know what to tell them outside of pointing out that it's a choice to reject that grace and love.

So fair and loving.

How could leaving it completely up to you be any more fair or loving? You have complete control to do as you choose.

Would you feel this same way if I substituted “God” for “Aliens”? In other words your “souls” eternity rested on your requirement to believe in aliens today. How about Buddha? Or Ra? Or any other of the hundreds of Gods that people have believed in?

Would depend on the evidence provided and then whether I was willing to go beyond what the evidence required. If you'd like to make that case or show me evidence that would go towards supporting that, I'd certainly take a look. My pops and I have been through many of the religions learning about them. He's probably studied most in depth. This would be another research project.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

How could leaving it completely up to you be any more fair or loving? You have complete control to do as you choose.

First, Ephesians 2:8 explicitly states that "you" do not have control over the choice as faith itself is a gift. I mean I get that most Christians will argue that the gift is grace - and that is fine, but then faith would be "from yourself" which contradicts the message. Either grace is 100% a gift from God that you can do nothing to earn or lose, or it is not. If it is gained or lost due to faith, due to belief then it is "from yourself". And by definition not Grace. So, while one can read this passage to mean just Grace if the words don't mean anything, but if the words do have meaning faith is also a gift and you are not in control of this decision.

Second, assuming God's word simply needed a better editor and the standard idea that faith is up to you is correct and I was wrong, then for it to be fair to make a choice that determines our eternity then we would need more complete set of information. Sorry, but the self-serving "all that needs to be said" passages of the Bible are demonstratable to be incorrect by just looking at those honestly trying to figure this out and ending up on the wrong side. So, this is hardly fair at all.

And I am a believer. I just have more faith that God is the loving, full of grace version and not the flawed version of human lack of imagination on the full meaning of the words they throw around version.

Not sure I am following. His grace is not forced on us. It's true that we have to do nothing to earn it and its presented to all. It's also true that you don't have to take it. That's your choice.

It can also be true/possible that one has the faith by default but no willingness to cultivate it, so it just sits there while you drift further and further from the relationship. Maybe that's more along the lines of what you're saying? But there's still a choice you own in that.

If you have to cultivate your faith in order to receive the gift of grace, then the receipt of the gift is at least in part based on the work you have done cultivating that faith. That is not theology or disbelief, it is basic usage of the words.

Even if you were to say that grace is a gift, but some refuse to accept it you have an act, "a work" by the individual. Your next reply undermines your "any more fair" argument-

Would depend on the evidence provided and then whether I was willing to go beyond what the evidence required.

Because despite your belief otherwise, the evidence is actually quite sparse. My belief is not based on any evidence that I could meaningfully share with a non-believer and would only makes sense to other believers. I have received this gift. Why haven't others?

Now if God chooses to allow non-believers to just die and that is the end of it, then it is fine, weird but fine for God to carve out a special reward for those that won life's lottery by guessing correctly. But if guessing wrong whether that means pure disbelief or belief in the wrong god or belief in the wrong characterization of the one God means being tortured eternally, then there is absolutely no way to spin this as being close to fair. It is immoral. It is anything but unconditional love and it certainly isn't God making the sacrifices.

But somehow I believe that God understands what love means. What a gift means. What paying a debt forever means. That it is us humans that keep putting conditions on it. And if you have to choose to accept the gift of grace, then I believe that God won't force that choice on anyone that lacks the information they need because steadfast love means something also.

 

[Sparky Polastri]

If you have to cultivate your faith in order to receive the gift of grace, then the receipt of the gift is at least in part based on the work you have done cultivating that faith. That is not theology or disbelief, it is basic usage of the words.

I agree but that's not what I said either.

Because despite your belief otherwise, the evidence is actually quite sparse. My belief is not based on any evidence that I could meaningfully share with a non-believer and would only makes sense to other believers. I have received this gift. Why haven't others?

I have frequently said here "evidence" is very little and far between in scientific terms when it comes to the equation. We spend far more time in the belief/faith side of the equation than anything else, but that doesn't mean there isn't tidbits that fall into the "evidence" category. All I am saying is that I am happy to evaluate all those bits at any time.

Now if God chooses to allow non-believers to just die and that is the end of it, then it is fine, weird but fine for God to carve out a special reward for those that won life's lottery by guessing correctly. But if guessing wrong whether that means pure disbelief or belief in the wrong god or belief in the wrong characterization of the one God means being tortured eternally, then there is absolutely no way to spin this as being close to fair. It is immoral. It is anything but unconditional love and it certainly isn't God making the sacrifices.

I've stated many times in this thread I don't hold the belief of "hell" being a place of torture. In my understandings from study, "hell" is anywhere God isn't. Yes, it's true we see many accounts of what people believe it looks like where God is not, but we don't know. It's a requirement of belief to jump to the torture and hellfire/brimstone. So the possibility of the bold is not only possible, but rather likely. And honestly, I think the second part is kind of flippant and lazy. As followers know there is a far more significant amount more to it than "guessing correctly".

I do want to be clear on something though. Receiving the gift and growing the gift via relationship with God are NOT the same thing. We have to do absolutely nothing to receive the gift. That debt has been paid. However, that does NOT mean we are not to continue seeking relationship with God and/or fellow man. We are commanded to do that over and over and over again. It feels (I don't like going here much because I am often wrong, so please correct me if I am wrong) that you are conflating the gift with the fruit the gift provides through our works in sharing our gift. To me there is a massive chasm there and distinction required. We show our fellow man through the fruits we bare. We bare those fruits through actively working on our relationship with God. That's to say we aren't so much "cultivating faith in order to receive the gift of grace" as we are "showing/providing our fruits to others because we've been afforded the opportunity through grace given us". This isn't a requirement to be in relationship with God as much as it is evidence that God is in us and we WANT to do/share with the rest of the world.

 

[Joe Bryant]

The fact that 68% of humans have decided against choosing Christianity leads me to believe it's not an obvious choice, yet it has drastic consequences if damnation is the alternative.

I don't think it's an "obvious" choice. Maybe it's just me having lived a while, but I tend to not assume everything I think is a good choice is an obvious choice to everyone.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

If you have to cultivate your faith in order to receive the gift of grace, then the receipt of the gift is at least in part based on the work you have done cultivating that faith. That is not theology or disbelief, it is basic usage of the words.

I agree but that's not what I said either.

Because despite your belief otherwise, the evidence is actually quite sparse. My belief is not based on any evidence that I could meaningfully share with a non-believer and would only makes sense to other believers. I have received this gift. Why haven't others?

I have frequently said here "evidence" is very little and far between in scientific terms when it comes to the equation. We spend far more time in the belief/faith side of the equation than anything else, but that doesn't mean there isn't tidbits that fall into the "evidence" category. All I am saying is that I am happy to evaluate all those bits at any time.

Now if God chooses to allow non-believers to just die and that is the end of it, then it is fine, weird but fine for God to carve out a special reward for those that won life's lottery by guessing correctly. But if guessing wrong whether that means pure disbelief or belief in the wrong god or belief in the wrong characterization of the one God means being tortured eternally, then there is absolutely no way to spin this as being close to fair. It is immoral. It is anything but unconditional love and it certainly isn't God making the sacrifices.

I've stated many times in this thread I don't hold the belief of "hell" being a place of torture. In my understandings from study, "hell" is anywhere God isn't. Yes, it's true we see many accounts of what people believe it looks like where God is not, but we don't know. It's a requirement of belief to jump to the torture and hellfire/brimstone. So the possibility of the bold is not only possible, but rather likely. And honestly, I think the second part is kind of flippant and lazy. As followers know there is a far more significant amount more to it than "guessing correctly".

I do want to be clear on something though. Receiving the gift and growing the gift via relationship with God are NOT the same thing. We have to do absolutely nothing to receive the gift. That debt has been paid. However, that does NOT mean we are not to continue seeking relationship with God and/or fellow man. We are commanded to do that over and over and over again. It feels (I don't like going here much because I am often wrong, so please correct me if I am wrong) that you are conflating the gift with the fruit the gift provides through our works in sharing our gift. To me there is a massive chasm there and distinction required. We show our fellow man through the fruits we bare. We bare those fruits through actively working on our relationship with God. That's to say we aren't so much "cultivating faith in order to receive the gift of grace" as we are "showing/providing our fruits to others because we've been afforded the opportunity through grace given us". This isn't a requirement to be in relationship with God as much as it is evidence that God is in us and we WANT to do/share with the rest of the world.

This is the second time that I think your reply to me sounds to me, as a believer like a 180 from the posts I was responding to. I wonder how this looks to non believers? Maybe that is why you don't get my first reply? That is you don't get my reply, because I don't get the post I'm replying to. But from other replies, I don't think I am alone. Other than the constant usage of "churchy" language, "churchy" words and phrases which I assume is a byproduct of your decades of study, I don't believe that there is anything to quibble with. I think that "churchy" language has a place and an audience, but becomes counterproductive in place such like this.

Ultimately though I think that if we truly want to share the good news, truly want others to share in a relationship with God, etc. then I think it is best to share that we are commanded to take care of one another and, surprise, surprise being selfless best serves our own selfish desires. Brings us the most joy and happiness. And following us down that path, as imperfectly as it would be will more likely lead them to that relationship with God then telling them that they are required to believe or they will burn in hell forever*.

Beating the , Christianity blossomed in the first century because Christians built loving communities that people wanted to be apart of. The love came first, the word came second, and belief ultimately followed. That is the successful model. "They will know we are Christians by our love".

Most everything I post however is in defense that the God I believe in, can believe in cannot be the monster, the , the immoral, evil being that way too often Christians portray God to be. Why cannot we see how riddicuolous it is to expect thoughtful people to follow that? If that is God, I'll see my non-believing friends in hell. About half the time I think you agree, at least in general terms. The other half of the time...

*Yes I see your interpretation of hell.

 

[Sparky Polastri]

This is the second time that I think your reply to me sounds to me, as a believer like a 180 from the posts I was responding to. I wonder how this looks to non believers? Maybe that is why you don't get my first reply? That is you don't get my reply, because I don't get the post I'm replying to. But from other replies, I don't think I am alone. Other than the constant usage of "churchy" language, "churchy" words and phrases which I assume is a byproduct of your decades of study, I don't believe that there is anything to quibble with. I think that "churchy" language has a place and an audience, but becomes counterproductive in place such like this.

I am 28 years old and a scientist by trade (or want to be anyway). I've only been at this for 10ish years in earnest. I am far from an expert. But, words have specific meanings and context to me. And I think its important when I see them used differently from me that I clarify what I mean. I'm not sure what "churchy" language I have used other than to distinguish between belief and facts and evidence. I apologize for not being clearer. I suspect that is a product of this form of communication, which makes me focus even more on definitions and context.

In our most recent interaction with respect to grace this seems where things went awry "choice to reject that grace and love." but this is not what you quoted and I thought you were talking about what I quoted instead. This is a poor choice of words on my part. I think it's more accurate to say "allow that grace and love to die on the vine". Meaning, the gift is exactly that, given free and clear. What you choose to do with it is completely up to you and my question to Zow was how can that be any more fair/loving? So apologies to both of you for my poor word choice.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

"allow that grace and love to die on the vine".

While I think it was appropriately used in this case, this is what I mean by "churchy" language. Few would use that phrase in typical conversation.

And I don't have much to nit pick here. And agree with the phrase in context. But to me those that are concerned about getting into heaven or escaping hell (the fire and brimstone version) are also "allow[ing] that grace and love to die on the vine". Christ's sacrifice is to free us from such worries so we can be "people of God" that can go out and "love thy neighbor" without fear that we end up in a "damned if do, damned if we don't predictiment" that the cause the literal followers of the scripture in Jesus and Paul's day to do nothing. They were crippled by the law, when the law was meant to free them. And today, I wouldn't use "crippled" but too many are so focused on the "getting to heaven" aspect that love takes a backseat, and pushes away those just a need a little love.

 

[3 hour lunch]

Religion is such an interesting topic to me, there are huge groups of people who would tell you God 100% exists and huge groups who would tell you there’s a 0% chance. It’s really different than most any other discussion about a fact or an opinion.

I grew up going to church every few weeks when my dad had us. My mom’s side was not religious at all. I was baptized but no communion etc. When I married, my wife’s family weren’t every week church goers or anything but we did enroll our kids in church classes like their cousins. They went for a couple of years and had their first communions but for various reasons (our lack of pushing, no friends in class, etc), we did not push them to get confirmed when they didn’t really love the classes.

As they went through their first communion year, I enrolled in the RCIA- Rite for Catholic Initiation for Adults. After all, if my kids were going to go up for communion, then I probably should too, right? I’m grateful for the experience, was paired with a nice older guy as a mentor; who showed me you could potentially have some beliefs (gay marriage etc) that didn’t really mesh with the churches beliefs, especially 15 years ago.

We had to go through various rites during the course of the year to get to the end to be confirmed. I did make it through but at several points I realized that while I considered much of what they were saying possible, I mostly couldn’t get to the point where others in the class seemed to be, at 100% faith. To be honest, I’m not sure how people make that “ leap of faith”. Perhaps it’s because I didn’t fully grow up in it, or I’m very logic based, or as a MN sports fan I fear the worst but hope for the best (may sound like a joke, but really isn’t). I hope it’s all true and that’s where I sit today, sort of in the middle.

We don’t regularly attend church at this point. I think we may be having the same discussions/arguments about religion for as long as people are around; as it’s not like we get new evidence regularly that would sway people from one side to the other. Anyway, not a super exciting story but that’s the perspective from someone in the middle. For anyone that was there, and made it to the “full faith” category, I’d be curious as to how/why you got there.

 

[BlackCrowes]

Religion is such an interesting topic to me, there are huge groups of people who would tell you God 100% exists and huge groups who would tell you there’s a 0% chance. It’s really different than most any other discussion about a fact or an opinion.

i think the former >>> the latter

 

[Paddington]

The fact that 68% of humans have decided against choosing Christianity leads me to believe it's not an obvious choice, yet it has drastic consequences if damnation is the alternative.

That's at this site. I have taken polls at many sites. Some sites have a much higher percentage choosing Christ, whereas, others have hardly anyone choosing Christ. It has a lot to do with the personality and type of Forum. All I know is that Body Builders, such as the ones that visited the Body Building Forums that no longer exist, really care about their souls. 68% is probably close to the average though in this day and age. Forums that have to do with hunting and fishing are going to give a higher percentage of people accepting Christ also.

 

[Captain Cranks]

really care about their souls.

smh

 

[Paddington]

really care about their souls.

smh

Well they do. A very high percentage of them have given their lives to Christ and a lot of traffic there.

 

[dkp993]

really care about their souls.

smh

Well they do. A very high percentage of them have given their lives to Christ and a lot of traffic there.

You’re missing the point. His “smh” is at the implication that those who don’t believe in Christ don’t care about their souls. The implication is pretty offensive.

 

[Paddington]

Religion is such an interesting topic to me, there are huge groups of people who would tell you God 100% exists and huge groups who would tell you there’s a 0% chance. It’s really different than most any other discussion about a fact or an opinion.

I grew up going to church every few weeks when my dad had us. My mom’s side was not religious at all. I was baptized but no communion etc. When I married, my wife’s family weren’t every week church goers or anything but we did enroll our kids in church classes like their cousins. They went for a couple of years and had their first communions but for various reasons (our lack of pushing, no friends in class, etc), we did not push them to get confirmed when they didn’t really love the classes.

As they went through their first communion year, I enrolled in the RCIA- Rite for Catholic Initiation for Adults. After all, if my kids were going to go up for communion, then I probably should too, right? I’m grateful for the experience, was paired with a nice older guy as a mentor; who showed me you could potentially have some beliefs (gay marriage etc) that didn’t really mesh with the churches beliefs, especially 15 years ago.

We had to go through various rites during the course of the year to get to the end to be confirmed. I did make it through but at several points I realized that while I considered much of what they were saying possible, I mostly couldn’t get to the point where others in the class seemed to be, at 100% faith. To be honest, I’m not sure how people make that “ leap of faith”. Perhaps it’s because I didn’t fully grow up in it, or I’m very logic based, or as a MN sports fan I fear the worst but hope for the best (may sound like a joke, but really isn’t). I hope it’s all true and that’s where I sit today, sort of in the middle.

We don’t regularly attend church at this point. I think we may be having the same discussions/arguments about religion for as long as people are around; as it’s not like we get new evidence regularly that would sway people from one side to the other. Anyway, not a super exciting story but that’s the perspective from someone in the middle. For anyone that was there, and made it to the “full faith” category, I’d be curious as to how/why you got there.

I grew up in Church. I made a sincere decision at the age of 4 to accept Christ as my Lord. But I left after High School because the people had wrong attitudes. I grew up feeling God's presence and favor with me. When I left Church (Not God or the Faith) God felt very distant from me, although always there. My 20s were a miserable hell without God actively in my life. I was a believer who was out of the will of God and He was chastening me. I met my wife and had kids in my late 20s. 9-9-2001 was my 30th Birthday. 2 days before 9-11-2001 WTC attacks. I began to seek God again. I visited a Church and didn't want to go back because they were the same type of Church I grew up in. I was laying in bed around midnight thinking about whether to go back there or not and made up my mind 100%, I was NOT going to go back there. At that very moment, I felt the Holy Spirit slowly come through my wall, in the form of a cloud and hover over my chest. He looked into my eye and spoke. (It was Jesus!) He said "I want you to go back to that Church " then He waited. As I felt God's very presence, I began to cry and told Him I was sorry for my sins and that I would serve Him from now on. I went back to that Church to a rude and domineering Pastor who treated me horrible, BUT God used him to Disciple me in the Foundational Doctrines of the Faith. I stayed nearly 5 years and learned a lot. There are a lot of other things that happened during that time, like I began to share the Gospel online, like I do here. I think God wants me to share the Gospel and bring as many people to His Salvation in Jesus Christ as possible.

BTW Did you hear that the Co Founder of Wikipedia just became a Christian? He is very analytics person. I heard his intervuew for over an hour yesterday.

I can tell more later...

 

[BlackCrowes]

I’d question whether a 4-year old can make a sincere decision without coercion

 

[3 hour lunch]

Religion is such an interesting topic to me, there are huge groups of people who would tell you God 100% exists and huge groups who would tell you there’s a 0% chance. It’s really different than most any other discussion about a fact or an opinion.

I grew up going to church every few weeks when my dad had us. My mom’s side was not religious at all. I was baptized but no communion etc. When I married, my wife’s family weren’t every week church goers or anything but we did enroll our kids in church classes like their cousins. They went for a couple of years and had their first communions but for various reasons (our lack of pushing, no friends in class, etc), we did not push them to get confirmed when they didn’t really love the classes.

As they went through their first communion year, I enrolled in the RCIA- Rite for Catholic Initiation for Adults. After all, if my kids were going to go up for communion, then I probably should too, right? I’m grateful for the experience, was paired with a nice older guy as a mentor; who showed me you could potentially have some beliefs (gay marriage etc) that didn’t really mesh with the churches beliefs, especially 15 years ago.

We had to go through various rites during the course of the year to get to the end to be confirmed. I did make it through but at several points I realized that while I considered much of what they were saying possible, I mostly couldn’t get to the point where others in the class seemed to be, at 100% faith. To be honest, I’m not sure how people make that “ leap of faith”. Perhaps it’s because I didn’t fully grow up in it, or I’m very logic based, or as a MN sports fan I fear the worst but hope for the best (may sound like a joke, but really isn’t). I hope it’s all true and that’s where I sit today, sort of in the middle.

We don’t regularly attend church at this point. I think we may be having the same discussions/arguments about religion for as long as people are around; as it’s not like we get new evidence regularly that would sway people from one side to the other. Anyway, not a super exciting story but that’s the perspective from someone in the middle. For anyone that was there, and made it to the “full faith” category, I’d be curious as to how/why you got there.

I grew up in Church. I made a sincere decision at the age of 4 to accept Christ as my Lord. But I left after High School because the people had wrong attitudes. I grew up feeling God's presence and favor with me. When I left Church (Not God or the Faith) God felt very distant from me, although always there. My 20s were a miserable hell without God actively in my life. I was a believer who was out of the will of God and He was chastening me. I met my wife and had kids in my late 20s. 9-9-2001 was my 30th Birthday. 2 days before 9-11-2001 WTC attacks. I began to seek God again. I visited a Church and didn't want to go back because they were the same type of Church I grew up in. I was laying in bed around midnight thinking about whether to go back there or not and made up my mind 100%, I was NOT going to go back there. At that very moment, I felt the Holy Spirit slowly come through my wall, in the form of a cloud and hover over my chest. He looked into my eye and spoke. (It was Jesus!) He said "I want you to go back to that Church " then He waited. As I felt God's very presence, I began to cry and told Him I was sorry for my sins and that I would serve Him from now on. I went back to that Church to a rude and domineering Pastor who treated me horrible, BUT God used him to Disciple me in the Foundational Doctrines of the Faith. I stayed nearly 5 years and learned a lot. There are a lot of other things that happened during that time, like I began to share the Gospel online, like I do here. I think God wants me to share the Gospel and bring as many people to His Salvation in Jesus Christ as possible.

BTW Did you hear that the Co Founder of Wikipedia just became a Christian? He is very analytics person. I heard his intervuew for over an hour yesterday.

I can tell more later...

Out of curiosity, you said you “felt” your experience, but also mentioned a cloud (you saw it?) and the voice of Jesus (like another voice in the room? Did you see Him?) I’m always fascinated by stories like these. Certainly something like that would be a pretty good push!

 

[Terminalxylem]

really care about their souls.

smh

Well they do. A very high percentage of them have given their lives to Christ and a lot of traffic there.

Odd association, as I’d guess many of those types are in to self worship.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Religion is such an interesting topic to me, there are huge groups of people who would tell you God 100% exists and huge groups who would tell you there’s a 0% chance. It’s really different than most any other discussion about a fact or an opinion.

I grew up going to church every few weeks when my dad had us. My mom’s side was not religious at all. I was baptized but no communion etc. When I married, my wife’s family weren’t every week church goers or anything but we did enroll our kids in church classes like their cousins. They went for a couple of years and had their first communions but for various reasons (our lack of pushing, no friends in class, etc), we did not push them to get confirmed when they didn’t really love the classes.

As they went through their first communion year, I enrolled in the RCIA- Rite for Catholic Initiation for Adults. After all, if my kids were going to go up for communion, then I probably should too, right? I’m grateful for the experience, was paired with a nice older guy as a mentor; who showed me you could potentially have some beliefs (gay marriage etc) that didn’t really mesh with the churches beliefs, especially 15 years ago.

We had to go through various rites during the course of the year to get to the end to be confirmed. I did make it through but at several points I realized that while I considered much of what they were saying possible, I mostly couldn’t get to the point where others in the class seemed to be, at 100% faith. To be honest, I’m not sure how people make that “ leap of faith”. Perhaps it’s because I didn’t fully grow up in it, or I’m very logic based, or as a MN sports fan I fear the worst but hope for the best (may sound like a joke, but really isn’t). I hope it’s all true and that’s where I sit today, sort of in the middle.

We don’t regularly attend church at this point. I think we may be having the same discussions/arguments about religion for as long as people are around; as it’s not like we get new evidence regularly that would sway people from one side to the other. Anyway, not a super exciting story but that’s the perspective from someone in the middle. For anyone that was there, and made it to the “full faith” category, I’d be curious as to how/why you got there.

I grew up in Church. I made a sincere decision at the age of 4 to accept Christ as my Lord. But I left after High School because the people had wrong attitudes. I grew up feeling God's presence and favor with me. When I left Church (Not God or the Faith) God felt very distant from me, although always there. My 20s were a miserable hell without God actively in my life. I was a believer who was out of the will of God and He was chastening me. I met my wife and had kids in my late 20s. 9-9-2001 was my 30th Birthday. 2 days before 9-11-2001 WTC attacks. I began to seek God again. I visited a Church and didn't want to go back because they were the same type of Church I grew up in. I was laying in bed around midnight thinking about whether to go back there or not and made up my mind 100%, I was NOT going to go back there. At that very moment, I felt the Holy Spirit slowly come through my wall, in the form of a cloud and hover over my chest. He looked into my eye and spoke. (It was Jesus!) He said "I want you to go back to that Church " then He waited. As I felt God's very presence, I began to cry and told Him I was sorry for my sins and that I would serve Him from now on. I went back to that Church to a rude and domineering Pastor who treated me horrible, BUT God used him to Disciple me in the Foundational Doctrines of the Faith. I stayed nearly 5 years and learned a lot. There are a lot of other things that happened during that time, like I began to share the Gospel online, like I do here. I think God wants me to share the Gospel and bring as many people to His Salvation in Jesus Christ as possible.

BTW Did you hear that the Co Founder of Wikipedia just became a Christian? He is very analytics person. I heard his intervuew for over an hour yesterday.

I can tell more later...

Wait, you made a sincere decision at age 4? What was that process?

 

[Paddington]

I’d question whether a 4-year old can make a sincere decision without coercion

All I knew is that I wanted to be saved. My Uncle told me that I was too little and to "Get Out Of Here", but I listened in and prayed with them from a distance. It must have been the Holy Spirit drawing me. Yes God can do that if He wants.

 

[Paddington]

Religion is such an interesting topic to me, there are huge groups of people who would tell you God 100% exists and huge groups who would tell you there’s a 0% chance. It’s really different than most any other discussion about a fact or an opinion.

I grew up going to church every few weeks when my dad had us. My mom’s side was not religious at all. I was baptized but no communion etc. When I married, my wife’s family weren’t every week church goers or anything but we did enroll our kids in church classes like their cousins. They went for a couple of years and had their first communions but for various reasons (our lack of pushing, no friends in class, etc), we did not push them to get confirmed when they didn’t really love the classes.

As they went through their first communion year, I enrolled in the RCIA- Rite for Catholic Initiation for Adults. After all, if my kids were going to go up for communion, then I probably should too, right? I’m grateful for the experience, was paired with a nice older guy as a mentor; who showed me you could potentially have some beliefs (gay marriage etc) that didn’t really mesh with the churches beliefs, especially 15 years ago.

We had to go through various rites during the course of the year to get to the end to be confirmed. I did make it through but at several points I realized that while I considered much of what they were saying possible, I mostly couldn’t get to the point where others in the class seemed to be, at 100% faith. To be honest, I’m not sure how people make that “ leap of faith”. Perhaps it’s because I didn’t fully grow up in it, or I’m very logic based, or as a MN sports fan I fear the worst but hope for the best (may sound like a joke, but really isn’t). I hope it’s all true and that’s where I sit today, sort of in the middle.

We don’t regularly attend church at this point. I think we may be having the same discussions/arguments about religion for as long as people are around; as it’s not like we get new evidence regularly that would sway people from one side to the other. Anyway, not a super exciting story but that’s the perspective from someone in the middle. For anyone that was there, and made it to the “full faith” category, I’d be curious as to how/why you got there.

I grew up in Church. I made a sincere decision at the age of 4 to accept Christ as my Lord. But I left after High School because the people had wrong attitudes. I grew up feeling God's presence and favor with me. When I left Church (Not God or the Faith) God felt very distant from me, although always there. My 20s were a miserable hell without God actively in my life. I was a believer who was out of the will of God and He was chastening me. I met my wife and had kids in my late 20s. 9-9-2001 was my 30th Birthday. 2 days before 9-11-2001 WTC attacks. I began to seek God again. I visited a Church and didn't want to go back because they were the same type of Church I grew up in. I was laying in bed around midnight thinking about whether to go back there or not and made up my mind 100%, I was NOT going to go back there. At that very moment, I felt the Holy Spirit slowly come through my wall, in the form of a cloud and hover over my chest. He looked into my eye and spoke. (It was Jesus!) He said "I want you to go back to that Church " then He waited. As I felt God's very presence, I began to cry and told Him I was sorry for my sins and that I would serve Him from now on. I went back to that Church to a rude and domineering Pastor who treated me horrible, BUT God used him to Disciple me in the Foundational Doctrines of the Faith. I stayed nearly 5 years and learned a lot. There are a lot of other things that happened during that time, like I began to share the Gospel online, like I do here. I think God wants me to share the Gospel and bring as many people to His Salvation in Jesus Christ as possible.

BTW Did you hear that the Co Founder of Wikipedia just became a Christian? He is very analytics person. I heard his intervuew for over an hour yesterday.

I can tell more later...

Out of curiosity, you said you “felt” your experience, but also mentioned a cloud (you saw it?) and the voice of Jesus (like another voice in the room? Did you see Him?) I’m always fascinated by stories like these. Certainly something like that would be a pretty good push!

The best I can describe it is that I saw it clearly, in my mind as it was happening. I could see the shape, speed, direction it was moving, but it wasn't with my physical eyes. It was more in my mind, but very clear and real. This time, when He spke to me, it was also in my mind, with no sound, but VERY clear and zero doubt that it was Jesus and that He was speaking. Other times He spoke to me and I did hear soundn AFTER that experience, God spake to me at certain times and in different ways. I will get to that later. I did not see Jesus, BUT I could see in my mind, His eyes looking directly into mine. I also immediately knew that He knew everything about me, everything I had ever done, thought, said. I learned a lot about Him from that short experience. Yes, it changed my life. I was at the point where I wanted nothing to do with people, except my wife and kids, because I had been betrayed by so many people close to me. But God brought me out of that. It wouldn't have happened without what He did. Also, I think God knew that my mind was so closed off at that point that it would be best if He just directly spoke to me rather than going about it possibly a different way. Just my thoughts.

 

[Paddington]

really care about their souls.

smh

Well they do. A very high percentage of them have given their lives to Christ and a lot of traffic there.

Odd association, as I’d guess many of those types are in to self worship.

Could be that many of them are very into themselves, but many of them read the first post about the Gospel and responded in the posetive. Only God can judge if it was sincere or not.

 

[Paddington]

Religion is such an interesting topic to me, there are huge groups of people who would tell you God 100% exists and huge groups who would tell you there’s a 0% chance. It’s really different than most any other discussion about a fact or an opinion.

I grew up going to church every few weeks when my dad had us. My mom’s side was not religious at all. I was baptized but no communion etc. When I married, my wife’s family weren’t every week church goers or anything but we did enroll our kids in church classes like their cousins. They went for a couple of years and had their first communions but for various reasons (our lack of pushing, no friends in class, etc), we did not push them to get confirmed when they didn’t really love the classes.

As they went through their first communion year, I enrolled in the RCIA- Rite for Catholic Initiation for Adults. After all, if my kids were going to go up for communion, then I probably should too, right? I’m grateful for the experience, was paired with a nice older guy as a mentor; who showed me you could potentially have some beliefs (gay marriage etc) that didn’t really mesh with the churches beliefs, especially 15 years ago.

We had to go through various rites during the course of the year to get to the end to be confirmed. I did make it through but at several points I realized that while I considered much of what they were saying possible, I mostly couldn’t get to the point where others in the class seemed to be, at 100% faith. To be honest, I’m not sure how people make that “ leap of faith”. Perhaps it’s because I didn’t fully grow up in it, or I’m very logic based, or as a MN sports fan I fear the worst but hope for the best (may sound like a joke, but really isn’t). I hope it’s all true and that’s where I sit today, sort of in the middle.

We don’t regularly attend church at this point. I think we may be having the same discussions/arguments about religion for as long as people are around; as it’s not like we get new evidence regularly that would sway people from one side to the other. Anyway, not a super exciting story but that’s the perspective from someone in the middle. For anyone that was there, and made it to the “full faith” category, I’d be curious as to how/why you got there.

I grew up in Church. I made a sincere decision at the age of 4 to accept Christ as my Lord. But I left after High School because the people had wrong attitudes. I grew up feeling God's presence and favor with me. When I left Church (Not God or the Faith) God felt very distant from me, although always there. My 20s were a miserable hell without God actively in my life. I was a believer who was out of the will of God and He was chastening me. I met my wife and had kids in my late 20s. 9-9-2001 was my 30th Birthday. 2 days before 9-11-2001 WTC attacks. I began to seek God again. I visited a Church and didn't want to go back because they were the same type of Church I grew up in. I was laying in bed around midnight thinking about whether to go back there or not and made up my mind 100%, I was NOT going to go back there. At that very moment, I felt the Holy Spirit slowly come through my wall, in the form of a cloud and hover over my chest. He looked into my eye and spoke. (It was Jesus!) He said "I want you to go back to that Church " then He waited. As I felt God's very presence, I began to cry and told Him I was sorry for my sins and that I would serve Him from now on. I went back to that Church to a rude and domineering Pastor who treated me horrible, BUT God used him to Disciple me in the Foundational Doctrines of the Faith. I stayed nearly 5 years and learned a lot. There are a lot of other things that happened during that time, like I began to share the Gospel online, like I do here. I think God wants me to share the Gospel and bring as many people to His Salvation in Jesus Christ as possible.

BTW Did you hear that the Co Founder of Wikipedia just became a Christian? He is very analytics person. I heard his intervuew for over an hour yesterday.

I can tell more later...

Wait, you made a sincere decision at age 4? What was that process?

Copied my response from someone else who asked the same question essentially:

All I knew is that I wanted to be saved. My Uncle told me that I was too little and to "Get Out Of Here", but I listened in and prayed with them from a distance. It must have been the Holy Spirit drawing me. Yes God can do that if He wants.

 

[Navin Johnson]

I’d question whether a 4-year old can make a sincere decision without coercion

All I knew is that I wanted to be saved. My Uncle told me that I was too little and to "Get Out Of Here", but I listened in and prayed with them from a distance. It must have been the Holy Spirit drawing me. Yes God can do that if He wants.

I kind of feel sorry for kids that get brainwashed at such an early age. They prey on the young and impressionable, as well as the broken.

 

[Paddington]

I’d question whether a 4-year old can make a sincere decision without coercion

All I knew is that I wanted to be saved. My Uncle told me that I was too little and to "Get Out Of Here", but I listened in and prayed with them from a distance. It must have been the Holy Spirit drawing me. Yes God can do that if He wants.

I kind of feel sorry for kids that get brainwashed at such an early age. They prey on the young and impressionable, as well as the broken.

You have it backwards. I am so glad that I have Jesus. I would be dead if I didn’t have Him. Many times, He saved my life. Once even from suicide. I will trll more of my story later.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I’d question whether a 4-year old can make a sincere decision without coercion

All I knew is that I wanted to be saved. My Uncle told me that I was too little and to "Get Out Of Here", but I listened in and prayed with them from a distance. It must have been the Holy Spirit drawing me. Yes God can do that if He wants.

I kind of feel sorry for kids that get brainwashed at such an early age. They prey on the young and impressionable, as well as the broken.

I understand this position and there are surely cults around the world that brainwash. And yes, I understand some people see mainstream Christianity as a cult. I do not.

I'd offer, as I think. maybe @BobbyLayne has also, that there's an element of trying to raise your children with a worldview you think is correct.

With that said, one of the things I consistently see in the Christian and church community I'm around is the idea that it's imperative that one's faith be their own. Not their parents or someone else's. I was that way myself. I grew up around church and I know my parents very much wanted me to be a Christian because they 1) thought it was an optimal way to live and 2) for salvation. But it was abundantly clear it had to be my own faith. Not theirs. And that's how it played out for me.

Now does a parent influence what a child and then young adult believes? Of course. I think that's true for everything a parent tries to instill in their children.

But, at least for me, "brainwashing" is not what I experienced myself or what I see around me.

 

[Navin Johnson]

I’d question whether a 4-year old can make a sincere decision without coercion

All I knew is that I wanted to be saved. My Uncle told me that I was too little and to "Get Out Of Here", but I listened in and prayed with them from a distance. It must have been the Holy Spirit drawing me. Yes God can do that if He wants.

I kind of feel sorry for kids that get brainwashed at such an early age. They prey on the young and impressionable, as well as the broken.

I understand this position and there are surely cults around the world that brainwash. And yes, I understand some people see mainstream Christianity as a cult. I do not.

I'd offer, as I think. maybe @BobbyLayne has also, that there's an element of trying to raise your children with a worldview you think is correct.

With that said, one of the things I consistently see in the Christian and church community I'm around is the idea that it's imperative that one's faith be their own. Not their parents or someone else's. I was that way myself. I grew up around church and I know my parents very much wanted me to be a Christian because they 1) thought it was an optimal way to live and 2) for salvation. But it was abundantly clear it had to be my own faith. Not theirs. And that's how it played out for me.

Now does a parent influence what a child and then young adult believes? Of course. I think that's true for everything a parent tries to instill in their children.

But, at least for me, "brainwashing" is not what I experienced myself or what I see around me.

I am sure the Scientologists feel the same way

 

[Joe Bryant]

I’d question whether a 4-year old can make a sincere decision without coercion

All I knew is that I wanted to be saved. My Uncle told me that I was too little and to "Get Out Of Here", but I listened in and prayed with them from a distance. It must have been the Holy Spirit drawing me. Yes God can do that if He wants.

I kind of feel sorry for kids that get brainwashed at such an early age. They prey on the young and impressionable, as well as the broken.

I understand this position and there are surely cults around the world that brainwash. And yes, I understand some people see mainstream Christianity as a cult. I do not.

I'd offer, as I think. maybe @BobbyLayne has also, that there's an element of trying to raise your children with a worldview you think is correct.

With that said, one of the things I consistently see in the Christian and church community I'm around is the idea that it's imperative that one's faith be their own. Not their parents or someone else's. I was that way myself. I grew up around church and I know my parents very much wanted me to be a Christian because they 1) thought it was an optimal way to live and 2) for salvation. But it was abundantly clear it had to be my own faith. Not theirs. And that's how it played out for me.

Now does a parent influence what a child and then young adult believes? Of course. I think that's true for everything a parent tries to instill in their children.

But, at least for me, "brainwashing" is not what I experienced myself or what I see around me.

I am sure the Scientologists feel the same way

I can't say there. I don't have any substantial experience with Scientology people to be sure what they've experienced or how they feel.

 

[Paddington]

I’d question whether a 4-year old can make a sincere decision without coercion

All I knew is that I wanted to be saved. My Uncle told me that I was too little and to "Get Out Of Here", but I listened in and prayed with them from a distance. It must have been the Holy Spirit drawing me. Yes God can do that if He wants.

I kind of feel sorry for kids that get brainwashed at such an early age. They prey on the young and impressionable, as well as the broken.

I understand this position and there are surely cults around the world that brainwash. And yes, I understand some people see mainstream Christianity as a cult. I do not.

I'd offer, as I think. maybe @BobbyLayne has also, that there's an element of trying to raise your children with a worldview you think is correct.

With that said, one of the things I consistently see in the Christian and church community I'm around is the idea that it's imperative that one's faith be their own. Not their parents or someone else's. I was that way myself. I grew up around church and I know my parents very much wanted me to be a Christian because they 1) thought it was an optimal way to live and 2) for salvation. But it was abundantly clear it had to be my own faith. Not theirs. And that's how it played out for me.

Now does a parent influence what a child and then young adult believes? Of course. I think that's true for everything a parent tries to instill in their children.

But, at least for me, "brainwashing" is not what I experienced myself or what I see around me.

I am sure the Scientologists feel the same way

But the evidence is on the side of Christianity. Jesus was a real person. He really fulfilled hundreds of prophecies. He really performed miracles according to the eye witnesses. He really was cruicified and He really rose from the dead. If He hadn't, everyone would have known He was a fraud and Christianity woukd have died out right then. But that's not what happened, hundreds to thousands saw Him after He rose again and Christianity exploded and changed the world. The world system revolves around Him. New Year, Easter, Christmas are all in His honor for what He did.

 

[-fish-]

The "world system"? Christians created holidays based on the winter and spring solstice and co-opted the traditions of other religions.

 

[-fish-]

December 25 wasn't chosen by the Christian church until about 4 centuries after Christ.

 

[-fish-]

The census that would have taken place around 3 BC is best estimated to have been in September.

 

[-fish-]

New Year's? Which one? Chinese? Persian? Or do you mean the Roman calendar?

 

[Navin Johnson]

I’d question whether a 4-year old can make a sincere decision without coercion

All I knew is that I wanted to be saved. My Uncle told me that I was too little and to "Get Out Of Here", but I listened in and prayed with them from a distance. It must have been the Holy Spirit drawing me. Yes God can do that if He wants.

I kind of feel sorry for kids that get brainwashed at such an early age. They prey on the young and impressionable, as well as the broken.

I understand this position and there are surely cults around the world that brainwash. And yes, I understand some people see mainstream Christianity as a cult. I do not.

I'd offer, as I think. maybe @BobbyLayne has also, that there's an element of trying to raise your children with a worldview you think is correct.

With that said, one of the things I consistently see in the Christian and church community I'm around is the idea that it's imperative that one's faith be their own. Not their parents or someone else's. I was that way myself. I grew up around church and I know my parents very much wanted me to be a Christian because they 1) thought it was an optimal way to live and 2) for salvation. But it was abundantly clear it had to be my own faith. Not theirs. And that's how it played out for me.

Now does a parent influence what a child and then young adult believes? Of course. I think that's true for everything a parent tries to instill in their children.

But, at least for me, "brainwashing" is not what I experienced myself or what I see around me.

I am sure the Scientologists feel the same way

But the evidence is on the side of Christianity. Jesus was a real person. He really fulfilled hundreds of prophecies. He really performed miracles according to the eye witnesses. He really was cruicified and He really rose from the dead. If He hadn't, everyone would have known He was a fraud and Christianity woukd have died out right then. But that's not what happened, hundreds to thousands saw Him after He rose again and Christianity exploded and changed the world. The world system revolves around Him. New Year, Easter, Christmas are all in His honor for what He did.

Christmas and Easter were both taken from the pagan celebrations of Saturnalia and Ishtar, the latter they didn't even put much effort changing the name or symbolism. Even when I was in the church, most educated Christians acknowledged that Jesus couldn't have been born in December.

 

[Zow]

I’d question whether a 4-year old can make a sincere decision without coercion

All I knew is that I wanted to be saved. My Uncle told me that I was too little and to "Get Out Of Here", but I listened in and prayed with them from a distance. It must have been the Holy Spirit drawing me. Yes God can do that if He wants.

I kind of feel sorry for kids that get brainwashed at such an early age. They prey on the young and impressionable, as well as the broken.

I understand this position and there are surely cults around the world that brainwash. And yes, I understand some people see mainstream Christianity as a cult. I do not.

I'd offer, as I think. maybe @BobbyLayne has also, that there's an element of trying to raise your children with a worldview you think is correct.

With that said, one of the things I consistently see in the Christian and church community I'm around is the idea that it's imperative that one's faith be their own. Not their parents or someone else's. I was that way myself. I grew up around church and I know my parents very much wanted me to be a Christian because they 1) thought it was an optimal way to live and 2) for salvation. But it was abundantly clear it had to be my own faith. Not theirs. And that's how it played out for me.

Now does a parent influence what a child and then young adult believes? Of course. I think that's true for everything a parent tries to instill in their children.

But, at least for me, "brainwashing" is not what I experienced myself or what I see around me.

I am sure the Scientologists feel the same way

But the evidence is on the side of Christianity. Jesus was a real person. He really fulfilled hundreds of prophecies. He really performed miracles according to the eye witnesses. He really was cruicified and He really rose from the dead. If He hadn't, everyone would have known He was a fraud and Christianity woukd have died out right then. But that's not what happened, hundreds to thousands saw Him after He rose again and Christianity exploded and changed the world. The world system revolves around Him. New Year, Easter, Christmas are all in His honor for what He did.

Christmas and Easter were both taken from the pagan celebrations of Saturnalia and Ishtar, the latter they didn't even put much effort changing the name or symbolism. Even when I was in the church, most educated Christians acknowledged that Jesus couldn't have been born in December.

Yep. My Catholic priests pretty consistent acknowledged it would have been in a summer and was probably in year 3 or 4 B.C.E.

 

[Navin Johnson]

I’d question whether a 4-year old can make a sincere decision without coercion

All I knew is that I wanted to be saved. My Uncle told me that I was too little and to "Get Out Of Here", but I listened in and prayed with them from a distance. It must have been the Holy Spirit drawing me. Yes God can do that if He wants.

I kind of feel sorry for kids that get brainwashed at such an early age. They prey on the young and impressionable, as well as the broken.

I understand this position and there are surely cults around the world that brainwash. And yes, I understand some people see mainstream Christianity as a cult. I do not.

I'd offer, as I think. maybe @BobbyLayne has also, that there's an element of trying to raise your children with a worldview you think is correct.

With that said, one of the things I consistently see in the Christian and church community I'm around is the idea that it's imperative that one's faith be their own. Not their parents or someone else's. I was that way myself. I grew up around church and I know my parents very much wanted me to be a Christian because they 1) thought it was an optimal way to live and 2) for salvation. But it was abundantly clear it had to be my own faith. Not theirs. And that's how it played out for me.

Now does a parent influence what a child and then young adult believes? Of course. I think that's true for everything a parent tries to instill in their children.

But, at least for me, "brainwashing" is not what I experienced myself or what I see around me.

I am sure the Scientologists feel the same way

But the evidence is on the side of Christianity. Jesus was a real person. He really fulfilled hundreds of prophecies. He really performed miracles according to the eye witnesses. He really was cruicified and He really rose from the dead. If He hadn't, everyone would have known He was a fraud and Christianity woukd have died out right then. But that's not what happened, hundreds to thousands saw Him after He rose again and Christianity exploded and changed the world. The world system revolves around Him. New Year, Easter, Christmas are all in His honor for what He did.

Christmas and Easter were both taken from the pagan celebrations of Saturnalia and Ishtar, the latter they didn't even put much effort changing the name or symbolism. Even when I was in the church, most educated Christians acknowledged that Jesus couldn't have been born in December.

Yep. My Catholic priests pretty consistent acknowledged it would have been in a summer and was probably in year 3 or 4 B.C.E.

Exactly. A lot of Christians change the narrative to, technically, Dec 25 was the day he was conceived

 

[Zow]

I’d question whether a 4-year old can make a sincere decision without coercion

All I knew is that I wanted to be saved. My Uncle told me that I was too little and to "Get Out Of Here", but I listened in and prayed with them from a distance. It must have been the Holy Spirit drawing me. Yes God can do that if He wants.

I kind of feel sorry for kids that get brainwashed at such an early age. They prey on the young and impressionable, as well as the broken.

I understand this position and there are surely cults around the world that brainwash. And yes, I understand some people see mainstream Christianity as a cult. I do not.

I'd offer, as I think. maybe @BobbyLayne has also, that there's an element of trying to raise your children with a worldview you think is correct.

With that said, one of the things I consistently see in the Christian and church community I'm around is the idea that it's imperative that one's faith be their own. Not their parents or someone else's. I was that way myself. I grew up around church and I know my parents very much wanted me to be a Christian because they 1) thought it was an optimal way to live and 2) for salvation. But it was abundantly clear it had to be my own faith. Not theirs. And that's how it played out for me.

Now does a parent influence what a child and then young adult believes? Of course. I think that's true for everything a parent tries to instill in their children.

But, at least for me, "brainwashing" is not what I experienced myself or what I see around me.

I am sure the Scientologists feel the same way

But the evidence is on the side of Christianity. Jesus was a real person. He really fulfilled hundreds of prophecies. He really performed miracles according to the eye witnesses. He really was cruicified and He really rose from the dead. If He hadn't, everyone would have known He was a fraud and Christianity woukd have died out right then. But that's not what happened, hundreds to thousands saw Him after He rose again and Christianity exploded and changed the world. The world system revolves around Him. New Year, Easter, Christmas are all in His honor for what He did.

Christmas and Easter were both taken from the pagan celebrations of Saturnalia and Ishtar, the latter they didn't even put much effort changing the name or symbolism. Even when I was in the church, most educated Christians acknowledged that Jesus couldn't have been born in December.

Yep. My Catholic priests pretty consistent acknowledged it would have been in a summer and was probably in year 3 or 4 B.C.E.

Exactly. A lot of Christians change the narrative to, technically, Dec 25 was the day he was conceived

When God came into Mary's room at night and impregnated her without her consent after she was engaged to another guy?

 

[Navin Johnson]

I’d question whether a 4-year old can make a sincere decision without coercion

All I knew is that I wanted to be saved. My Uncle told me that I was too little and to "Get Out Of Here", but I listened in and prayed with them from a distance. It must have been the Holy Spirit drawing me. Yes God can do that if He wants.

I kind of feel sorry for kids that get brainwashed at such an early age. They prey on the young and impressionable, as well as the broken.

I understand this position and there are surely cults around the world that brainwash. And yes, I understand some people see mainstream Christianity as a cult. I do not.

I'd offer, as I think. maybe @BobbyLayne has also, that there's an element of trying to raise your children with a worldview you think is correct.

With that said, one of the things I consistently see in the Christian and church community I'm around is the idea that it's imperative that one's faith be their own. Not their parents or someone else's. I was that way myself. I grew up around church and I know my parents very much wanted me to be a Christian because they 1) thought it was an optimal way to live and 2) for salvation. But it was abundantly clear it had to be my own faith. Not theirs. And that's how it played out for me.

Now does a parent influence what a child and then young adult believes? Of course. I think that's true for everything a parent tries to instill in their children.

But, at least for me, "brainwashing" is not what I experienced myself or what I see around me.

I am sure the Scientologists feel the same way

But the evidence is on the side of Christianity. Jesus was a real person. He really fulfilled hundreds of prophecies. He really performed miracles according to the eye witnesses. He really was cruicified and He really rose from the dead. If He hadn't, everyone would have known He was a fraud and Christianity woukd have died out right then. But that's not what happened, hundreds to thousands saw Him after He rose again and Christianity exploded and changed the world. The world system revolves around Him. New Year, Easter, Christmas are all in His honor for what He did.

Christmas and Easter were both taken from the pagan celebrations of Saturnalia and Ishtar, the latter they didn't even put much effort changing the name or symbolism. Even when I was in the church, most educated Christians acknowledged that Jesus couldn't have been born in December.

Yep. My Catholic priests pretty consistent acknowledged it would have been in a summer and was probably in year 3 or 4 B.C.E.

Exactly. A lot of Christians change the narrative to, technically, Dec 25 was the day he was conceived

When God came into Mary's room at night and impregnated her without her consent after she was engaged to another guy?

I guess you do what you gotta do to frame your argument around your fixed conclusion

 

[Paddington]

I’d question whether a 4-year old can make a sincere decision without coercion

All I knew is that I wanted to be saved. My Uncle told me that I was too little and to "Get Out Of Here", but I listened in and prayed with them from a distance. It must have been the Holy Spirit drawing me. Yes God can do that if He wants.

I kind of feel sorry for kids that get brainwashed at such an early age. They prey on the young and impressionable, as well as the broken.

I understand this position and there are surely cults around the world that brainwash. And yes, I understand some people see mainstream Christianity as a cult. I do not.

I'd offer, as I think. maybe @BobbyLayne has also, that there's an element of trying to raise your children with a worldview you think is correct.

With that said, one of the things I consistently see in the Christian and church community I'm around is the idea that it's imperative that one's faith be their own. Not their parents or someone else's. I was that way myself. I grew up around church and I know my parents very much wanted me to be a Christian because they 1) thought it was an optimal way to live and 2) for salvation. But it was abundantly clear it had to be my own faith. Not theirs. And that's how it played out for me.

Now does a parent influence what a child and then young adult believes? Of course. I think that's true for everything a parent tries to instill in their children.

But, at least for me, "brainwashing" is not what I experienced myself or what I see around me.

I am sure the Scientologists feel the same way

But the evidence is on the side of Christianity. Jesus was a real person. He really fulfilled hundreds of prophecies. He really performed miracles according to the eye witnesses. He really was cruicified and He really rose from the dead. If He hadn't, everyone would have known He was a fraud and Christianity woukd have died out right then. But that's not what happened, hundreds to thousands saw Him after He rose again and Christianity exploded and changed the world. The world system revolves around Him. New Year, Easter, Christmas are all in His honor for what He did.

Christmas and Easter were both taken from the pagan celebrations of Saturnalia and Ishtar, the latter they didn't even put much effort changing the name or symbolism. Even when I was in the church, most educated Christians acknowledged that Jesus couldn't have been born in December.

As far as Christmas goes, yes nobody knows exactly when Christ was born. They did celebrate Christmas on a pagan holiday because the church had new converts and so they were replacing the pagan holidays with Christian ones. Easter is a little harder to pin down. Yes Easter was the false god of fertility, however, passover is also during that time. The resurrection is on the last day of Passover I believe.

 

[dkp993]

If He hadn't, everyone would have known He was a fraud and Christianity woukd have died out right then.

Just like Buddhism died out after Buddha died or Islam after Mohammed died. Oh wait……..

 

[-fish-]

I’d question whether a 4-year old can make a sincere decision without coercion

All I knew is that I wanted to be saved. My Uncle told me that I was too little and to "Get Out Of Here", but I listened in and prayed with them from a distance. It must have been the Holy Spirit drawing me. Yes God can do that if He wants.

I kind of feel sorry for kids that get brainwashed at such an early age. They prey on the young and impressionable, as well as the broken.

I understand this position and there are surely cults around the world that brainwash. And yes, I understand some people see mainstream Christianity as a cult. I do not.

I'd offer, as I think. maybe @BobbyLayne has also, that there's an element of trying to raise your children with a worldview you think is correct.

With that said, one of the things I consistently see in the Christian and church community I'm around is the idea that it's imperative that one's faith be their own. Not their parents or someone else's. I was that way myself. I grew up around church and I know my parents very much wanted me to be a Christian because they 1) thought it was an optimal way to live and 2) for salvation. But it was abundantly clear it had to be my own faith. Not theirs. And that's how it played out for me.

Now does a parent influence what a child and then young adult believes? Of course. I think that's true for everything a parent tries to instill in their children.

But, at least for me, "brainwashing" is not what I experienced myself or what I see around me.

I am sure the Scientologists feel the same way

But the evidence is on the side of Christianity. Jesus was a real person. He really fulfilled hundreds of prophecies. He really performed miracles according to the eye witnesses. He really was cruicified and He really rose from the dead. If He hadn't, everyone would have known He was a fraud and Christianity woukd have died out right then. But that's not what happened, hundreds to thousands saw Him after He rose again and Christianity exploded and changed the world. The world system revolves around Him. New Year, Easter, Christmas are all in His honor for what He did.

Christmas and Easter were both taken from the pagan celebrations of Saturnalia and Ishtar, the latter they didn't even put much effort changing the name or symbolism. Even when I was in the church, most educated Christians acknowledged that Jesus couldn't have been born in December.

As far as Christmas goes, yes nobody knows exactly when Christ was born. They did celebrate Christmas on a pagan holiday because the church had new converts and so they were replacing the pagan holidays with Christian ones. Easter is a little harder to pin down. Yes Easter was the false god of fertility, however, passover is also during that time. The resurrection is on the last day of Passover I believe.

so the "world system" doesn't revolve around Christ at all, but later attempts of the church to co-opt other cultures and religions? Your "evidence" doesn't seem very irrefutable.

 

[Paddington]

If He hadn't, everyone would have known He was a fraud and Christianity woukd have died out right then.

Just like Buddhism died out after Buddha died or Islam after Mohammed died. Oh wait……..

Neither one of them said that they were going to die and rise again and then Rose from the dead. Jesus said he was going to die and rise from the dead and then he did it. Had he not risen from the dead He would have been exposed as a fraud.

 

[Paddington]

I’d question whether a 4-year old can make a sincere decision without coercion

All I knew is that I wanted to be saved. My Uncle told me that I was too little and to "Get Out Of Here", but I listened in and prayed with them from a distance. It must have been the Holy Spirit drawing me. Yes God can do that if He wants.

I kind of feel sorry for kids that get brainwashed at such an early age. They prey on the young and impressionable, as well as the broken.

I understand this position and there are surely cults around the world that brainwash. And yes, I understand some people see mainstream Christianity as a cult. I do not.

I'd offer, as I think. maybe @BobbyLayne has also, that there's an element of trying to raise your children with a worldview you think is correct.

With that said, one of the things I consistently see in the Christian and church community I'm around is the idea that it's imperative that one's faith be their own. Not their parents or someone else's. I was that way myself. I grew up around church and I know my parents very much wanted me to be a Christian because they 1) thought it was an optimal way to live and 2) for salvation. But it was abundantly clear it had to be my own faith. Not theirs. And that's how it played out for me.

Now does a parent influence what a child and then young adult believes? Of course. I think that's true for everything a parent tries to instill in their children.

But, at least for me, "brainwashing" is not what I experienced myself or what I see around me.

I am sure the Scientologists feel the same way

But the evidence is on the side of Christianity. Jesus was a real person. He really fulfilled hundreds of prophecies. He really performed miracles according to the eye witnesses. He really was cruicified and He really rose from the dead. If He hadn't, everyone would have known He was a fraud and Christianity woukd have died out right then. But that's not what happened, hundreds to thousands saw Him after He rose again and Christianity exploded and changed the world. The world system revolves around Him. New Year, Easter, Christmas are all in His honor for what He did.

Christmas and Easter were both taken from the pagan celebrations of Saturnalia and Ishtar, the latter they didn't even put much effort changing the name or symbolism. Even when I was in the church, most educated Christians acknowledged that Jesus couldn't have been born in December.

As far as Christmas goes, yes nobody knows exactly when Christ was born. They did celebrate Christmas on a pagan holiday because the church had new converts and so they were replacing the pagan holidays with Christian ones. Easter is a little harder to pin down. Yes Easter was the false god of fertility, however, passover is also during that time. The resurrection is on the last day of Passover I believe.

so the "world system" doesn't revolve around Christ at all, but later attempts of the church to co-opt other cultures and religions? Your "evidence" doesn't seem very irrefutable.

It did until a few decades ago. God In Prayer in the Public Square was very common a few decades ago in Europe and in America

 

[dkp993]

If He hadn't, everyone would have known He was a fraud and Christianity woukd have died out right then.

Just like Buddhism died out after Buddha died or Islam after Mohammed died. Oh wait……..

Neither one of them said that they were going to die and rise again and then Rose from the dead. Jesus said he was going to die and rise from the dead and then he did it. Had he not risen from the dead He would have been exposed as a fraud.

So If I understand you correctly. You’re stating the sole reason Christianity continued on is because of the belief in the resurrection? How then do you explain Buddhism or Islam taking hold and existing, in earnest, to this day without the equivalent?

 

[zoonation]

I’d question whether a 4-year old can make a sincere decision without coercion

All I knew is that I wanted to be saved. My Uncle told me that I was too little and to "Get Out Of Here", but I listened in and prayed with them from a distance. It must have been the Holy Spirit drawing me. Yes God can do that if He wants.

I kind of feel sorry for kids that get brainwashed at such an early age. They prey on the young and impressionable, as well as the broken.

I understand this position and there are surely cults around the world that brainwash. And yes, I understand some people see mainstream Christianity as a cult. I do not.

I'd offer, as I think. maybe @BobbyLayne has also, that there's an element of trying to raise your children with a worldview you think is correct.

With that said, one of the things I consistently see in the Christian and church community I'm around is the idea that it's imperative that one's faith be their own. Not their parents or someone else's. I was that way myself. I grew up around church and I know my parents very much wanted me to be a Christian because they 1) thought it was an optimal way to live and 2) for salvation. But it was abundantly clear it had to be my own faith. Not theirs. And that's how it played out for me.

Now does a parent influence what a child and then young adult believes? Of course. I think that's true for everything a parent tries to instill in their children.

But, at least for me, "brainwashing" is not what I experienced myself or what I see around me.

I am sure the Scientologists feel the same way

But the evidence is on the side of Christianity. Jesus was a real person. He really fulfilled hundreds of prophecies. He really performed miracles according to the eye witnesses. He really was cruicified and He really rose from the dead. If He hadn't, everyone would have known He was a fraud and Christianity woukd have died out right then. But that's not what happened, hundreds to thousands saw Him after He rose again and Christianity exploded and changed the world. The world system revolves around Him. New Year, Easter, Christmas are all in His honor for what He did.

You need to stop with the “eye witnesses” stuff. There were no eye witness accounts.