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How To Get To Heaven When You Die (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Paddington
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Understood. Do not feel bad as that's difficult for most everyone to acknowledge.
It also highlights a fundamental difference between how I see spreading my faith and how other folks do.
Starting off with something I know is a huge objection for most of the audience, in my opinion, is not the most effective way to share an idea. Even if I think it's true.
I think if I've got something I'd like for other people to have, a better way to share that idea is demonstrating how it works for me. And more a focus on engaging and having a discussion.
I do that poorly often times. But doing it better is the goal.
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It's of course worrisome and troubling. It's a delicate balance though. Being worried and troubled by something vs being seen negatively as "proselytizing" is a challenge.
I think the most informative video on how many Christians see it and how I think many non Christians see it the one I've shared here before where Penn Jillette talks about a person who gave him a bible after a show.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6md638smQd8beinzee
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Yeah, I saw that video before, and agree
with his take.
Yeah, I saw that video before, and agree
Cool. I think a lot of non Christians see it like Jillette and to answer your question a lot of Christians feel like the guy who gave him a bible.
Definitely not a "c’est la vie, to each their own" thing. Even though @Paddington and I don't see eye to eye on method, he's an example of that. It would be a lot easier for him personally to avoid doing threads like these. I may not agree exactly on method, but I feel certain he cares a lot.
BlackCrowes
Footballguy
i don't. i understand the sentiment, but i'd rather the guy respect my beliefs or lack thereofYeah, I saw that video before, and agree
edit: his analogy of the bus coming is a poor one. i can see the bus coming. people on both sides might think they "know", but i just don't think its something that can be known.
Paddington
Footballguy
You don't believe that you are a sinner? The Bible says that everyone is a sinner. The only one who would never send his Jesus christ. If that were true then Jesus Christ died for no reason and God would not have had to send his Son.
Sparky Polastri
Footballguy
Penn's comments get to the heart of the matter of spreading the word of God. His experience with that guy is likely very similar to the way his experience with Jesus would have been thousands of years ago as he walked the earth. It's important to spread the word of God. It's important to show that you care about your fellow man. It's also important to do it from a place of humbleness and humility. We see it all the time in these threads. Those who insist on beating you over the head with their belief and/or interpretation as THE way are never going to get anywhere meaningful with the average non-believer and leave other believers just shaking their heads. Why? Because that's not what we are instructed to do. We are instructed to build people up, not push down on them. We are instructed to follow scripture, not some religion that's built a bunch of "stuff" on top of scripture. We are to encourage, not admonish. We are to meet people where they are, not to tell them "hey, when you get to X, get back to me and we can talk".Yeah, I saw that video before, and agree
I could write paragraphs about what we should do vs what I see done day after day. 95% of it is unhelpful and unproductive. Again, we see it in threads here all the time. The strongest witness we can provide is through our actions. I get that Penn as an atheist. I get he doesn't believe. I also get that he's likely been presented a bunch of lunacy and "fights" over his position by people trying to "save" him. We aren't here to save people. That's above our pay grade. We aren't capable of that. We are here to encourage and support and meet people where they are while showing them how God is working in our lives. That plants a seed. That's what we are here to do. You can tell by Penn's reaction that he was impacted by the guy. Imagine what it would be like to run up against men/women like the one Penn described hundreds of times in a week in your interactions. At some point you'd be questioning all the "coincidences" and wondering what was up with these people and why they were so different.
Zow
Footballguy
If he doesn't believe that the Bible is the active word of G/god, why would he then believe anything written it as entirely truthful?
Further, as Joe has very well stated, not many people respond well when the initial part of the message being given is basically, "you're terrible and I have the only solution for you." Generally speaking, nobody wants to hear that, especially if they don't think their terrible. This is why your message (and the fundamentalist reborn Christian message) is probably more successful with those down on themselves (convicts, recovering addicts, divorcees, etc.) because they are already down on themselves and your message gives them an out to feel good about themselves again.
BlackCrowes
Footballguy
What sin did I commit?
Paddington
Footballguy
If you have ever broken any if the 10 Commandments even one time in your life, you are a sinner. The Bible says that everyone is a sinner (Except Jesus). Lying, Lusting after a woman you aren't married to, stealing, coveting something that isn't yours, ect.
Mister CIA
Footballguy
And no false idols too, right?
BlackCrowes
Footballguy
Well my neighbor does have a nice cow, but I wouldn’t say I want it or anything
i don't. i understand the sentiment, but i'd rather the guy respect my beliefs or lack thereofYeah, I saw that video before, and agree
edit: his analogy of the bus coming is a poor one. i can see the bus coming. people on both sides might think they "know", but i just don't think its something that can be known.
Jillette's analogy isn't perfecct. But I think it makes sense. Probably a better addition would be some sort of terrible event that was going to happen that the person couldn't see.
This can easily spiral off track in the discussion on rules.
I think maybe something like this might be more how I'd see it.
First, you're asking a totally fair question. If you feel like you’ve lived a good and decent life and haven’t hurt anyone, it makes sense you wouldn’t feel like you “owe” anything to God. Or have anything that needs to be forgiven. But I think sometimes religion makes this stuff feel too much like a rulebook and not enough like a relationship.
Again, likely not a perfect analogy but maybe it's like a person walking around in perfect health, or so they think.
One day they get a physical, and the scan shows something quietly growing in the background. A genetic defect passed down from birth. No symptoms yet, but eventually, it’s going to shut everything down.
There’s a cure. But only if you accept that the problem is there.
Now, imagine someone hears that and says, “I feel fine. I’m not sick.”
But what if the scan sees something you don’t yet? What if it’s not about how you feel, but what’s true underneath?
That’s kind of what the Christian message is about.
Not, “You’re a bad person and God is mad.”
But, “There’s a deeper disconnect in all of us, even if we’re good by human standards.”
It’s less about breaking rules, and more about being unplugged from the Source we were made for.
I fully understand that the counter to that is, "No, the scan is wrong. I'm sure there's nothing wrong with me".
I get it.
I'm only trying to explain how someone from a Christian perspective might see it.
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BlackCrowes
Footballguy
Sure, you’re trying to tell me something that I’m not aware of that may be harmful. But in the case of the bus coming or the defect on my scan, there’s something tangible you can point to and I can sense. If I still choose to ignore it that’s on me. But I’m not seeing the corresponding “thing” in convincing me I need saving. You’re kind of asking me to take your word for it
For sure. It's not a perfect analogy from Penn.
Everyone will jump out of the way of the bus if they see it.
I think the unseen diagnosis is a better analogy.
From the earlier post, this feels more how I see it:
That’s kind of what the Christian message is about.
Not, “You’re a bad person and God is mad.”
But, “There’s a deeper disconnect in all of us, even if we’re good by human standards.”
It’s less about breaking rules, and more about being unplugged from the Source we were made for.
I fully understand that the counter to that is, "No, the scan is wrong. I'm sure there's nothing wrong with me".
I get it.
I'm only trying to explain how someone from a Christian perspective might see it.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
For the 5th Sunday of Easter, the second lesson for those boring* churches following the liturgical calendar in year C is Revelation 21:1-6. A passage that largely shows the "end game" future as it indirectly reiterates Jesus' teachings that following Jesus is not about us going to heaven but preparing to live in such a way to be ready when God comes down to reside with us. While ultimately, God will need to conquer the "evil forces" that tend to reign over the world that we are still to treat this as God's kingdom and live as best we can accordingly. How is found in today's gospel reading John 13:31-35.
*I have a friend who unknowingly insulted my worship preferences when he said that his church is made up mostly of members that used to go to "boring churches" but have since "stepped it up a notch". I go to one of those "boring" churches. I decided to own the insult.
*I have a friend who unknowingly insulted my worship preferences when he said that his church is made up mostly of members that used to go to "boring churches" but have since "stepped it up a notch". I go to one of those "boring" churches. I decided to own the insult.
I hear you. "Boring" Churches can be awesome.
Paddington
Footballguy
Well, yes that would be a major sin. The biggest idol in America is money. Anything that you put before God is an idol.
Sparky Polastri
Footballguy
There are no degrees of sin. That's a manmade construct.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
Most of this is a "man-made construct".
If I was a non-believer, I would have said all of it was man-made.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
Just to build on this a bit I've been thinking about my church service yesterday a bit and one of the comments made in the sermon has stuck with me. It was in the context of the readings from yesterday especially Revelation 21:1-6, but I think it does just fine standing alone.
The sermon simply included that by the time of the last supper Jesus had already been betrayed and Jesus knew it. Yet Judas was still welcomed at the table.
Sparky Polastri
Footballguy
Of course. My comment was inspired by a self professed believer.
Paddington
Footballguy
Captain Cranks
Footballguy
Here are a couple scenarios for the Christians here.
Imagine you had a Muslim knock on your door who wanted to introduce you to their religion. What would be your response? Would you be open minded about what they had to say?
How about if your child's friend invited them over for Buddhist temple services. Would you let them go? If so, how would you feel about them potentially appreciating the experience more than they do your Christian based church services?
Imagine you had a Muslim knock on your door who wanted to introduce you to their religion. What would be your response? Would you be open minded about what they had to say?
How about if your child's friend invited them over for Buddhist temple services. Would you let them go? If so, how would you feel about them potentially appreciating the experience more than they do your Christian based church services?
dgreen
Footballguy
I'd be open-minded in the sense that I'd be curious to learn about their religion but not in the sense that I'd consider a "they are right and I am wrong" possibility. I think that's largely because I'm not unsatisfied with where I'm at and I'm not looking to replace anything. It would be like trying to sell a house to someone who loves their own house and isn't looking to move.
I'd have no problem with my kids attending a Buddhist temple service. I assume that it's probably an interesting experience and I hope they seek to understand other cultures. I'm pretty big on church services not being about my own appreciation. I try to not have that be a big factor in why I'm there, so I think that would play a role my reaction and conversation with them. I mean, on some level, I'm sure they appreciate going to a Commanders game or golfing or hanging out with friends more than our church service, but none of that would seem to impact whether or not they think it is important for them to attend and be involved and serve through our church community. I don't know enough about Buddhism to know if appreciating their services would necessarily cause a conflict with a commitment to Christ.
Good answer @dgreen
That's how I would see it as well.
It seems suboptimal in my opinion to see the world or other faiths as a "threat" or something to be shielded from.
Paddington
Footballguy
It's not like that anyways because Europe and American culture have been built on Christianity, not Islam and not Buddhism. In fact Europe and America have been pulling away from Christianity. So if somebody is evangelizing you and Christianity they are trying to turn you back to the religion of your forefathers. And quite frankly they're trying to turn you back to the truth.
Zow
Footballguy
A major building block of our country is slavery. And our forefathers championed that as well as restricting the societal roles of women. So, if you're saying that Christianity is tied to our forefathers, then "pulling away from them" and their religious practices seems like an objectively good thing.
Sparky Polastri
Footballguy
Yeah, our country was NOT build on Christianity. Our forefathers were wise enough to start this country with the concept of "separation of church and state" for a reason. This coming from an actively practicing Christian.
BlackCrowes
Footballguy
it was founded by men of the Enlightenment, many of whom were Christians.
Captain Cranks
Footballguy
This doesn't answer my questions in any way.
dkp993
Footballguy
This should read. “ And quite frankly they're trying to turn you back to, what I believe, is the truth.”
Paddington
Footballguy
No, I wouldn't let them go for a few reasons. To answer this question the way that you are looking for I have to pretend that I am don't know anything about the Bible which I do. If I were a person who had no religion and these people came of course I wouldn't let my kid go with them. But I would let them go to church because that is the religion of my forefathers.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
In terms of defining objective truth about god(s) and the afterlife, why should the opinions/experiences of American forefathers be given more weight than those of other cultures?
The Longtime Lurker
Footballguy
Are you as well versed in all the other religions as you are in Christianity? If so, what makes you so confident Christianity is the correct take on gods and the afterlife? Let's not use the forefather's as the reason if possible. I'm always interested in how people choose their religion. To truly be a believer wouldn't it be best to know each possible religion intimately and then make your choice based on this knowledge vs what the people before you believed, or where you were born?
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Of course what you describe makes sense, but I bet only a small minority of any faith invest in an exhaustive review of the world’s religions. Same goes for non-believers.
To be fair, that’s a lot of scripture. Perhaps a course in comparative religion should be mandatory? But when and where?
Full disclosure: I’m atheist, and was raised non-religious. I know a decent amount about Christianity, Judaism, and Buddhism, plus some Hindu, and a little about LDS. That leave out Islam, and many, many other faiths.
For example, who recognizes which religion adheres to these fundamental tenets?
The Longtime Lurker
Footballguy
Yes, that would be a monumental task, but a basic understanding of the major world religions isn't unreasonable if you are truly devout imo. I was raised Catholic and became agnostic later after i started to question what i was taught. I took an interest in other religions for the sake of my own knowledge and it was enlightening. Like you i also took the time to have a reasonable understanding of the major religions along with a few ancient religions, shamanism, paganism, ect. as i find them fascinating and low and behold the more I learned the more i realized i knew nothing. I'm far from a religious scholar, but it was food for thought and the more I learned about other religious practices the farther i got from any one in particular. I guess my point is, how can you be so sure any one religion is correct when you haven't taken the time to understand the others?
Edit. I had to Google your example. That should get a reaction
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Captain Cranks
Footballguy
This is a very peculiar response and I'd argue it inadvertently admits to a person's "Truth" being dependent on where they're born.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
Would you allow your child to visit a Catholic Church? How about a Metropolitan Community Church? Or any "liberal" denomination Church?
(FYI - I don't consider either of the two listed "liberal" from a theology perspective, though MCC would be congregation dependent.)
For my answer to the question-
I am pretty sure that I have told this before, but until about age five (before any of this sunk in) I was taken relatively regularly to "my church" and did all the Sunday School and VBS things. Family circumstances change after that and from age six to nine, I relatively consistently went to church, Sunday Schools, VBSs, evening youth programs, etc., just not mine and seldom for more than a few weeks in a row at the same church as I went with friends. I went to multiple Catholic churches (to get my exercise in), multiple variations of Baptists churches, Methodist church, Anglican/Episcopalian, Presbyterian, non-denominational, and I'm sure a few I'm forgetting. Oh, and except for the Catholic churches these were all closer to my house than "my church". At age ten and well into adulthood I was primarily a regular at my church, only occasionally deviating for family events, girlfriends, and other similar reasons. As an older adult, after I moved a thousand miles, I bounced around a bit again until I found a place that was comfortable in style to "my church".
The diversity during those four years of going to friend's churches certainly shaped my beliefs. As I was starting to understand what Christians actually believed I figured out that there were some basics and then a whole lot of variety. Some of that variety is just emphasis. And some is contradictory. As I began to explore more on my own, I found those very same things over and over in the bible. There are some basics. There are differences in emphasis. And there are plenty of instances where two telling of the same story cannot both be true. Cannot even get past the two versions of creation in Genesis 1 and 2. On this forum we have had numerous posters state that they were bible thumping Christians and then they read the bible, and as a result they were out. I think a bit of diversity, a bit of wiggle room in faith is a good thing.
Now I never (as a youth) knowingly encountered a Muslem or a Buddhist such that I would have been exposed to those alternatives. I guess the closest I got would be Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons. If I did, I'd think it would have just reinforced that there are some basics, some differences in emphasis, and some contradiction. I think all of that is healthy. And if my faith cannot be challenged by being exposed to different perspectives and surviving then what is it worth anyway? And if some competing faith (or none at all) wins over my hypothetical children, then my trust has always been in a God of love and grace. Why would I worship and praise any other form of god other than being a coward?
Zow
Footballguy
I may have seen this before, but just in context I'm assuming these are either Wiccan or Satanic tenets?
Zow
Footballguy
But I would let them enslave others because that was the practice of my forefathers.
Mister CIA
Footballguy
Zow
Footballguy
For sure. And, honestly, I'm not even trying to beat up on our forefathers. My point is merely to point out the purblind position that Paddington takes by saying his kid should only go to a church consistent with the religious practiced by the forefathers.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Paddington
Footballguy
No. The Bible is the truth. All other religions are false
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Well, that settles it then.
Sparky Polastri
Footballguy
Doesn't seem to matter if the Bible is "true" or "false" in your previous statement though. You state you are allowing them to go to church because that's what your forefathers did. That was your standard in that comment. Captain Cranks is spot on in the assessment given the words you typed.
This discussion can be useful. But please let's drop the Christian Nationalist tangent which will inevitably be political. Thank you.
Separation of Church and State is a very good thing. Let's leave it at that.
Separation of Church and State is a very good thing. Let's leave it at that.
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