IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Also, apparently transgender people can be straight. So it isn't just about 14 year old girls seeing a penis. It's also about 14 year old girls being checked out by a heterosexual 14 year old boy.
I'm not against it in theory, but I don't think that's necessary to address issues of individual gender identity. Locker rooms and such are in existence because of gender, not sex. We allow young children, who haven't yet formed any gender identity, to go into the opposite sex locker room with their parents at a gym. And the one protest to this particular kid seems to be "my 14 year old shouldn't be exposed to seeing a 17-year old penis." I'm just asking why seeing (another) penis for these 14-year olds is worse than telling someone who is, gender-identity-wise, a girl to go use the boys' locker room.So we should go to totally co-ed locker rooms?I guess I don't understand the issue you have with a 14 year old seeing a penis, then. If the "exposure" is non-sexual in nature and secondary only to changing clothes for gym class... what's the big deal about a 14-year-old seeing a penis?
Edit: After hitting "reply," I realized that that comes off more sarcastic than what I meant. Philosophically, I can see the appeal of changing our society's views on nudity to be more like Sparta and less like, well, now. But that isn't going to happen any time soon.
What should we do with the lesbian girls? Separate them out, too?Also, apparently transgender people can be straight. So it isn't just about 14 year old girls seeing a penis. It's also about 14 year old girls being checked out by a heterosexual 14 year old boy.
No that was 18 year old penis.I'm not against it in theory, but I don't think that's necessary to address issues of individual gender identity. Locker rooms and such are in existence because of gender, not sex. We allow young children, who haven't yet formed any gender identity, to go into the opposite sex locker room with their parents at a gym. And the one protest to this particular kid seems to be "my 14 year old shouldn't be exposed to seeing a 17-year old penis." I'm just asking why seeing (another) penis for these 14-year olds is worse than telling someone who is, gender-identity-wise, a girl to go use the boys' locker room.So we should go to totally co-ed locker rooms?I guess I don't understand the issue you have with a 14 year old seeing a penis, then. If the "exposure" is non-sexual in nature and secondary only to changing clothes for gym class... what's the big deal about a 14-year-old seeing a penis?
Edit: After hitting "reply," I realized that that comes off more sarcastic than what I meant. Philosophically, I can see the appeal of changing our society's views on nudity to be more like Sparta and less like, well, now. But that isn't going to happen any time soon.
Okay. Good to know. Once you do that, and document whatever happens, we will have one whole example of it happening.You all are my witness. Today I am declaring I'm transgender. I'm going to start out by going to the YMCA and entering the women's locker room, stripping down and just mill around in there.. I'm not wearing either a wig or women's clothes. Picture Mike Ditka walking around a women's locker room. You see today I identify as lesbian woman, you know the ones who like to wear men's clothes.
This kid is 17. So it's okay?No that was 18 year old penis.I'm not against it in theory, but I don't think that's necessary to address issues of individual gender identity. Locker rooms and such are in existence because of gender, not sex. We allow young children, who haven't yet formed any gender identity, to go into the opposite sex locker room with their parents at a gym. And the one protest to this particular kid seems to be "my 14 year old shouldn't be exposed to seeing a 17-year old penis." I'm just asking why seeing (another) penis for these 14-year olds is worse than telling someone who is, gender-identity-wise, a girl to go use the boys' locker room.So we should go to totally co-ed locker rooms?I guess I don't understand the issue you have with a 14 year old seeing a penis, then. If the "exposure" is non-sexual in nature and secondary only to changing clothes for gym class... what's the big deal about a 14-year-old seeing a penis?
Edit: After hitting "reply," I realized that that comes off more sarcastic than what I meant. Philosophically, I can see the appeal of changing our society's views on nudity to be more like Sparta and less like, well, now. But that isn't going to happen any time soon.
No its not ok, But in my earlier scenario the kid is 18. You being an attorney is that ok? By law should an 18 year old intact male be parading around in front of a 14 year old girl with his wang out "transgender" or not ?This kid is 17. So it's okay?No that was 18 year old penis.I'm not against it in theory, but I don't think that's necessary to address issues of individual gender identity. Locker rooms and such are in existence because of gender, not sex. We allow young children, who haven't yet formed any gender identity, to go into the opposite sex locker room with their parents at a gym. And the one protest to this particular kid seems to be "my 14 year old shouldn't be exposed to seeing a 17-year old penis." I'm just asking why seeing (another) penis for these 14-year olds is worse than telling someone who is, gender-identity-wise, a girl to go use the boys' locker room.So we should go to totally co-ed locker rooms?I guess I don't understand the issue you have with a 14 year old seeing a penis, then. If the "exposure" is non-sexual in nature and secondary only to changing clothes for gym class... what's the big deal about a 14-year-old seeing a penis?
Edit: After hitting "reply," I realized that that comes off more sarcastic than what I meant. Philosophically, I can see the appeal of changing our society's views on nudity to be more like Sparta and less like, well, now. But that isn't going to happen any time soon.
As I tried to say before, if the exposure is secondary to changing clothes for gym class and non-sexual in nature, the only issue I have with your scenario is your derisive, bigoted use of quotes around "transgender" and refusal to acknowledge the proper pronouns when referring to a transgender woman.No its not ok, But in my earlier scenario the kid is 18. You being an attorney is that ok? By law should an 18 year old intact male be parading around in front of a 14 year old girl with his wang out "transgender" or not ?This kid is 17. So it's okay?No that was 18 year old penis.I'm not against it in theory, but I don't think that's necessary to address issues of individual gender identity. Locker rooms and such are in existence because of gender, not sex. We allow young children, who haven't yet formed any gender identity, to go into the opposite sex locker room with their parents at a gym. And the one protest to this particular kid seems to be "my 14 year old shouldn't be exposed to seeing a 17-year old penis." I'm just asking why seeing (another) penis for these 14-year olds is worse than telling someone who is, gender-identity-wise, a girl to go use the boys' locker room.So we should go to totally co-ed locker rooms?I guess I don't understand the issue you have with a 14 year old seeing a penis, then. If the "exposure" is non-sexual in nature and secondary only to changing clothes for gym class... what's the big deal about a 14-year-old seeing a penis?
Edit: After hitting "reply," I realized that that comes off more sarcastic than what I meant. Philosophically, I can see the appeal of changing our society's views on nudity to be more like Sparta and less like, well, now. But that isn't going to happen any time soon.
I'm not sure that that's true, but you know what I mean regardless.And, by the way, if you refer to a transgender woman (born male) as "straight", she would consider that to be being attracted to men. Because she is a woman.
I do know what you mean. And I don't think you were trying to be insulting or anything. Some in the transgender community find it insulting, though. Just another way of saying "you're not really a woman" to some people.I'm not sure that that's true, but you know what I mean regardless.And, by the way, if you refer to a transgender woman (born male) as "straight", she would consider that to be being attracted to men. Because she is a woman.
No, we've gotten by fine for centuries with things the way they are now. No need to upend everything just to accommodate one finicky person. The transgender person in question can just use the locker room corresponding to his biological sex or we can go with tim's suggestion of having a separate gender-neutral facility.What should we do with the lesbian girls? Separate them out, too?Also, apparently transgender people can be straight. So it isn't just about 14 year old girls seeing a penis. It's also about 14 year old girls being checked out by a heterosexual 14 year old boy.
Well, as long as the separate facility is equal to the normal facility, what could go wrong?No, we've gotten by fine for centuries with things the way they are now. No need to upend everything just to accommodate one finicky person. The transgender person in question can just use the locker room corresponding to his biological sex or we can go with tim's suggestion of having a separate gender-neutral facility.What should we do with the lesbian girls? Separate them out, too?Also, apparently transgender people can be straight. So it isn't just about 14 year old girls seeing a penis. It's also about 14 year old girls being checked out by a heterosexual 14 year old boy.
I know you don't have an issue but does the law? Why does an 18 year old male get charged with a sex offense for sending a picture of his penis to an underage girl via text? Does the law just assume that is sexual in nature. What if the guy who sends it via text says its ok I identify as a woman. That is not really a penis you see that is the starter kit of my new ######.As I tried to say before, if the exposure is secondary to changing clothes for gym class and non-sexual in nature, the only issue I have with your scenario is your derisive, bigoted use of quotes around "transgender" and refusal to acknowledge the proper pronouns when referring to a transgender woman.No its not ok, But in my earlier scenario the kid is 18. You being an attorney is that ok? By law should an 18 year old intact male be parading around in front of a 14 year old girl with his wang out "transgender" or not ?This kid is 17. So it's okay?No that was 18 year old penis.I'm not against it in theory, but I don't think that's necessary to address issues of individual gender identity. Locker rooms and such are in existence because of gender, not sex. We allow young children, who haven't yet formed any gender identity, to go into the opposite sex locker room with their parents at a gym. And the one protest to this particular kid seems to be "my 14 year old shouldn't be exposed to seeing a 17-year old penis." I'm just asking why seeing (another) penis for these 14-year olds is worse than telling someone who is, gender-identity-wise, a girl to go use the boys' locker room.So we should go to totally co-ed locker rooms?I guess I don't understand the issue you have with a 14 year old seeing a penis, then. If the "exposure" is non-sexual in nature and secondary only to changing clothes for gym class... what's the big deal about a 14-year-old seeing a penis?
Edit: After hitting "reply," I realized that that comes off more sarcastic than what I meant. Philosophically, I can see the appeal of changing our society's views on nudity to be more like Sparta and less like, well, now. But that isn't going to happen any time soon.
Transgender people already use locker rooms and bathrooms all over the country, quite legally. And in an academic setting, the law certainly provides a mechanism for this kid's parents to sue the school if they don't allow use of the girls' locker room under Title IX.I know you don't have an issue but does the law? Why does an 18 year old male get charged with a sex offense for sending a picture of his penis to an underage girl via text? Does the law just assume that is sexual in nature. What if the guy who sends it via text says its ok I identify as a woman. That is not really a penis you see that is the starter kit of my new ######.As I tried to say before, if the exposure is secondary to changing clothes for gym class and non-sexual in nature, the only issue I have with your scenario is your derisive, bigoted use of quotes around "transgender" and refusal to acknowledge the proper pronouns when referring to a transgender woman.No its not ok, But in my earlier scenario the kid is 18. You being an attorney is that ok? By law should an 18 year old intact male be parading around in front of a 14 year old girl with his wang out "transgender" or not ?This kid is 17. So it's okay?No that was 18 year old penis.I'm not against it in theory, but I don't think that's necessary to address issues of individual gender identity. Locker rooms and such are in existence because of gender, not sex. We allow young children, who haven't yet formed any gender identity, to go into the opposite sex locker room with their parents at a gym. And the one protest to this particular kid seems to be "my 14 year old shouldn't be exposed to seeing a 17-year old penis." I'm just asking why seeing (another) penis for these 14-year olds is worse than telling someone who is, gender-identity-wise, a girl to go use the boys' locker room.So we should go to totally co-ed locker rooms?I guess I don't understand the issue you have with a 14 year old seeing a penis, then. If the "exposure" is non-sexual in nature and secondary only to changing clothes for gym class... what's the big deal about a 14-year-old seeing a penis?
Edit: After hitting "reply," I realized that that comes off more sarcastic than what I meant. Philosophically, I can see the appeal of changing our society's views on nudity to be more like Sparta and less like, well, now. But that isn't going to happen any time soon.
Unless it's a SUPERpenis, such as mine.I feel like a lot of people have gone overboard on the transgender thing. A penis is still a penis.
I don't know. Does the law consider a woman texting an underage girl a picture of her naked body a crime?As to what if it gets sent by text - what if a woman sent another woman a text of a breast? Or a vulva? Does the law assume it's sexual in nature? Can you imagine why that's different from wandering around a locker room before gym class?
The same way it does a man texting pictures of his, yes.I don't know. Does the law consider a woman texting an underage girl a picture of he naked body a crime?As to what if it gets sent by text - what if a woman sent another woman a text of a breast? Or a vulva? Does the law assume it's sexual in nature? Can you imagine why that's different from wandering around a locker room before gym class?
Boy your laws are ####ed up... So you can be transgender and send a picture of your penis to a underage girl and that is not ok, but that same transgender person can stand with his penis staring that same underage girl straight in the face in a high school locker room and that is ok? WTFThe same way it does a man texting pictures of his, yes.I don't know. Does the law consider a woman texting an underage girl a picture of he naked body a crime?As to what if it gets sent by text - what if a woman sent another woman a text of a breast? Or a vulva? Does the law assume it's sexual in nature? Can you imagine why that's different from wandering around a locker room before gym class?
Absurd seems a bit much. I'll give you complicated, but biology isn't perfect.No. That's the problem. It's just saying that you identify as a woman. The whole thing is absurd.Transgender would imply you no longer have male sex organs correct?
I consider myself male. And as such, I'm entitled to call myself that. If you have an issue with that, much like if you have an issue with this teenager calling herself female, I think you spend too much time wondering about other people's genitals.Henry Ford
Henry FordFootballguy
You should probably change that to "person". Your gender is just a societally imposed fabrication, right?
- Gender:Male
#### are not a social construct
Wait, you think the law should be different for a lesbian woman to try to seduce a girl through naked pictures than for a man? Or you think locker room nakedness is sexual? Or both? Also, I feel like you're not really grasping the "woman" part of "transgender woman."Bo
Boy your laws are ####ed up... So you can be transgender and send a picture of your penis to a underage girl and that is not ok, but that same transgender person can stand with his penis staring that same underage girl straight in the face in a high school locker room and that is ok? WTFThe same way it does a man texting pictures of his, yes.I don't know. Does the law consider a woman texting an underage girl a picture of he naked body a crime?As to what if it gets sent by text - what if a woman sent another woman a text of a breast? Or a vulva? Does the law assume it's sexual in nature? Can you imagine why that's different from wandering around a locker room before gym class?
shark move for a transgenderdudechick would be to try and join a sorority...
Yeah, maybe it's a big deal. You know what else is a big deal to teenage girls? Zits. Not being asked to the prom. Extra homework on the Friday before a holiday. Jenny dating Jim, who just broke up with Lance two weeks ago, and Lance and Jim are best friends, ZOMG!!!People keep asking if seeing a penis is a big deal in a locker room setting, but if it is a big deal to the underage girl, then it is a big deal. And apparently it is a big deal to some of these underage girls. Enough that they walk out of school in protest.
That's only because declaring a change in ones identity has a social cost associated with it.I like this whole "transgender accommodation will leave the door open to perverts and sex criminals exploiting women!' angle.
If you're a sleazy heterosexual man who is willing to do awful things in order to view naked women against their will, you don't need to pretend to be transgender to do it. If you're desperate and pathetic enough to lie about your identity to see boobs, I'm betting you're also desperate and pathetic enough to install a hidden camera or watch one that someone else has installed on the internet.
Protecting women from sex criminals who fraudulently declare themselves to be transgender is pretty much at the bottom of the list of sex criminal behaviors we should be concerned about.
They are what they are, not what I, you, or anyone else want them to be.I consider myself male. And as such, I'm entitled to call myself that. If you have an issue with that, much like if you have an issue with this teenager calling herself female, I think you spend too much time wondering about other people's genitals.Henry Ford
Henry FordFootballguy
You should probably change that to "person". Your gender is just a societally imposed fabrication, right?
- Gender:Male
#### are not a social construct
fixedshark move for a transgenderdudechickperson who still has male equipment and is attracted to women would be to try and join a sorority...
Not generally, no.I suppose this has been mentioned somewhere in these 9 pages but I assume kids aren't stripping down naked, lining up and then showering together for gym class these days.
A transgender man would have a tough time getting in the door.fixedshark move for a transgenderdudechickperson who still has male equipment and is attracted to women would be to try and join a sorority...
See, we can agree on something. Probably not what "they" we are referring to, but at least the structure of the sentence.They are what they are, not what I, you, or anyone else want them to be.I consider myself male. And as such, I'm entitled to call myself that. If you have an issue with that, much like if you have an issue with this teenager calling herself female, I think you spend too much time wondering about other people's genitals.Henry Ford
Henry FordFootballguy
You should probably change that to "person". Your gender is just a societally imposed fabrication, right?
- Gender:Male
#### are not a social construct
I think I'm going to start calling people espousing all this gender fluidity nonsense "deniers".
I don't necessarily disagree that it shouldn't be such a big deal, but do you see any chance of this not being a big deal in today's world? Maybe we can agree on how things should be, but schools always have to accommodate the most paranoid, the most narrowminded, etc. That's why there are asinine zero tolerance rules. There's no room for common sense. Schools are afraid of lawsuits.Yeah, maybe it's a big deal. You know what else is a big deal to teenage girls? Zits. Not being asked to the prom. Extra homework on the Friday before a holiday. Jenny dating Jim, who just broke up with Lance two weeks ago, and Lance and Jim are best friends, ZOMG!!!Teenage girls don't have a right to be protected from everything that's a big deal to them.People keep asking if seeing a penis is a big deal in a locker room setting, but if it is a big deal to the underage girl, then it is a big deal. And apparently it is a big deal to some of these underage girls. Enough that they walk out of school in protest.
It's not bigotry to tell a boy to get back in the boys locker room. Holy ####.It's also a big ####ing deal to the teenager who's trying to use the locker room before gym class and identifies as a girl. Interestingly, she does have a right to be protected from bigotry and discrimination. That's why I lean toward the transgender teen in this story.
You are denying the true nature of my reply.See, we can agree on something. Probably not what "they" we are referring to, but at least the structure of the sentence.They are what they are, not what I, you, or anyone else want them to be.I consider myself male. And as such, I'm entitled to call myself that. If you have an issue with that, much like if you have an issue with this teenager calling herself female, I think you spend too much time wondering about other people's genitals.Henry Ford
Henry FordFootballguy
You should probably change that to "person". Your gender is just a societally imposed fabrication, right?
- Gender:Male
#### are not a social construct
I think I'm going to start calling people espousing all this gender fluidity nonsense "deniers".
No, they don't. They don't have to accommodate the most narrow minded. That's why the national guard stood watch while black children went into white schools. And why I'm harping on the legal rights involved here. What legal right are we thinking the girls who protested have? I'm having a tough time coming up with one. I know what lawsuit will be filed if they don't accommodate this transgender kid, and that the U.S. Department of Education will probably write an amicus brief on the kid's behalf.I don't necessarily disagree that it shouldn't be such a big deal, but do you see any chance of this not being a big deal in today's world? Maybe we can agree on how things should be, but schools always have to accommodate the most paranoid, the most narrowminded, etc. That's why there are asinine zero tolerance rules. There's no room for common sense. Schools are afraid of lawsuits.Yeah, maybe it's a big deal. You know what else is a big deal to teenage girls? Zits. Not being asked to the prom. Extra homework on the Friday before a holiday. Jenny dating Jim, who just broke up with Lance two weeks ago, and Lance and Jim are best friends, ZOMG!!!Teenage girls don't have a right to be protected from everything that's a big deal to them.People keep asking if seeing a penis is a big deal in a locker room setting, but if it is a big deal to the underage girl, then it is a big deal. And apparently it is a big deal to some of these underage girls. Enough that they walk out of school in protest.
Well, we've worked through a lot of things in this thread. We know that having a penis isn't what makes you a boy (hermaphrodites, birth defects, etc), having XY chromosomes isn't what makes you a boy (SRYers), having desire to have sex with women isn't what makes you a boy (lesbians), the ability to impregnate a woman isn't what makes you a boy (sterility)... what is it that makes someone a boy in your mind?It's not bigotry to tell a boy to get back in the boys locker room. Holy ####.It's also a big ####ing deal to the teenager who's trying to use the locker room before gym class and identifies as a girl. Interestingly, she does have a right to be protected from bigotry and discrimination. That's why I lean toward the transgender teen in this story.
Well, we've worked through a lot of things in this thread. We know that having a penis isn't what makes you a boy (hermaphrodites, birth defects, etc), having XY chromosomes isn't what makes you a boy (SRYers), having desire to have sex with women isn't what makes you a boy (lesbians), the ability to impregnate a woman isn't what makes you a boy (sterility)... what is it that makes someone a boy in your mind?It's not bigotry to tell a boy to get back in the boys locker room. Holy ####.It's also a big ####ing deal to the teenager who's trying to use the locker room before gym class and identifies as a girl. Interestingly, she does have a right to be protected from bigotry and discrimination. That's why I lean toward the transgender teen in this story.
You're insane. Good fisherman though.No but apparently if you do declare that you are transgender (and my understanding that is all that is required, a declaration) you can legally be a pervert.I like this whole "transgender accommodation will leave the door open to perverts and sex criminals exploiting women!' angle.
If you're a sleazy heterosexual man who is willing to do awful things in order to view naked women against their will, you don't need to pretend to be transgender to do it. If you're desperate and pathetic enough to lie about your identity to see boobs, I'm betting you're also desperate and pathetic enough to install a hidden camera or watch one that someone else has installed on the internet.
Protecting women from sex criminals who fraudulently declare themselves to be transgender is pretty much at the bottom of the list of sex criminal behaviors we should be concerned about.