HS girls stage a walkout as trans teen uses girls bathroom (2 Viewers)

[ATC1]

You need parental permission for anything in a school. Go on a field trip or watch a PG movie for crying out loud. I can not see the school allowing her to change in the locker room unless the parents sign a permission form or she legally becomes female according to the state, school etc. I would have to get my daughter's thoughts on the situation to determine if I was comfortable with it. Questions I would have would be is this for showering or are we talking about a quick change into and out of a gym uniform? How is she as a classmate?

If she does not want to change in the seperate neutral bathroom accomindations the school provides (faculty or family bathroom) then those that don't have the permission slip signed will need to change either in a separate location or at a different time.

Well, you must be closing your eyes. That's what happened.

And the girls walked out. Don't blame them if they are truely uncomfortable with it.

 

[Henry Ford]

You need parental permission for anything in a school. Go on a field trip or watch a PG movie for crying out loud. I can not see the school allowing her to change in the locker room unless the parents sign a permission form or she legally becomes female according to the state, school etc. I would have to get my daughter's thoughts on the situation to determine if I was comfortable with it. Questions I would have would be is this for showering or are we talking about a quick change into and out of a gym uniform? How is she as a classmate?

If she does not want to change in the seperate neutral bathroom accomindations the school provides (faculty or family bathroom) then those that don't have the permission slip signed will need to change either in a separate location or at a different time.

Well, you must be closing your eyes. That's what happened.

And the girls walked out. Don't blame them if they are truely uncomfortable with it.

We don't have a right to be comfortable.

 

[ATC1]

You need parental permission for anything in a school. Go on a field trip or watch a PG movie for crying out loud. I can not see the school allowing her to change in the locker room unless the parents sign a permission form or she legally becomes female according to the state, school etc. I would have to get my daughter's thoughts on the situation to determine if I was comfortable with it. Questions I would have would be is this for showering or are we talking about a quick change into and out of a gym uniform? How is she as a classmate?

If she does not want to change in the seperate neutral bathroom accomindations the school provides (faculty or family bathroom) then those that don't have the permission slip signed will need to change either in a separate location or at a different time.

Well, you must be closing your eyes. That's what happened.

And the girls walked out. Don't blame them if they are truely uncomfortable with it.

We don't have a right to be comfortable.

That is the dumbest argument I ever heard. We don't have a right to be insulted by the rebel flag either.

 

[matttyl]

From your above link (I'm starting to find this more and more interesting, thank you)....


“Gender-based discrimination” is a form of sex discrimination, and refers to differential treatment or harassment of a student based on the student’s sex, including gender identity, gender expression, and nonconformity with gender stereotypes, that results in the denial or limitation of education services, benefits, or opportunities. Conduct may constitute gender-based discrimination regardless of the actual or perceived sex, gender identity, or sexual orientation of the persons experiencing or engaging in the conduct.

Cool. It's fascinating stuff. I often wonder what these subjects will be like in 10-20-30 years.

That quote isn't intentionally in the links I put up - I'm guessing the Resolution I posted is redirecting to the EEOC.

http://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/crt/legacy/2013/07/26/arcadiaagree.pdfis what I intended to post, it's a resolution with the DOJ to allow a transgender male student to use male facilities.

That was on the first page of the first link you posted in post 578, as is the same link you just posted here. It's the first "definition" listed. So again, how can gender discrimination be a kind of sex discrimination when (in this case) the sex and the gender aren't the same thing. How can you be gender discriminated against but not sex discriminated against when one is a type of the other?

You are sex discriminated against in gender discrimination. Precisely because they aren't the same thing. Courts are beginning to recognize that woman (sex) and woman (gender) are separate ideas - and a man (sex) who lives as a woman (gender) should have the same rights as a woman (sex) who lives as a woman (gender).

Your link says that gender discrimination is a type of sex discrimination. So if that's true, than all gender discrimination is sex discrimination.

If the school says this student needs to use the men's/boy's locker room, then she's being gender discriminated against. If the school says this student needs to use the woman's/girl's locker room, then she's being sexually discriminated against.

 

[matttyl]

You need parental permission for anything in a school. Go on a field trip or watch a PG movie for crying out loud. I can not see the school allowing her to change in the locker room unless the parents sign a permission form or she legally becomes female according to the state, school etc. I would have to get my daughter's thoughts on the situation to determine if I was comfortable with it. Questions I would have would be is this for showering or are we talking about a quick change into and out of a gym uniform? How is she as a classmate?

If she does not want to change in the seperate neutral bathroom accomindations the school provides (faculty or family bathroom) then those that don't have the permission slip signed will need to change either in a separate location or at a different time.

Well, you must be closing your eyes. That's what happened.

And the girls walked out. Don't blame them if they are truely uncomfortable with it.

According to Henry, they should all be given "incompletes" or absences for that.

 

[Black Box]

We use gender because it's actually what we're talking about. We don't actually care if someone is genetically male or female, we just don't want to see a penis in the girls' room. But that's because we think it's icky. And that's a stupid reason to create a massive societal "rule." If someone who'd had gender reassignment surgery and had been living as a woman without a penis for 30 years got up from the table at a restaurant, kissed her husband, said she'd be right back and used the men's room, we'd think that was weird, too.

So how do we judge gender in a legal sense?

Honestly, we usually don't. Unless it's one of these cases. In which case, it usually comes down to the person... wait for it... living as a particular gender. Like using those restrooms and things.

Right, or wearing a wig (check), wearing a dress (check), appearing to have an eating disorder (check...I kid, I kid). She clearly has the freedom and ability to live as a particular gender with no issues for some aspects of her life. But what about in all areas of her life?

She has been prevented from living as her chosen gender because she has boy parts and not girl parts. This is either by choice or because of the 1 year waiting period. Or because she is 17. At any rate, she isn't being prevented.

She has been prevented from living as her chosen gender because she cannot use the girls' locker room at school. No - no, no, no. SHE is doing just fine. The school is letting her use the locker room. Her rights are kicking ### and taking names here.

This is because her rights run afoul of her school mate's right to privacy (or, more specifically, the right of the school not to be exposed to any right to privacy lawsuits). Again - she's winning with the school. It's those 150 other kids who are complaining.

Let's say that she still has a penis by choice. That seems to indicate that living as her chosen gender isn't an all or nothing proposition for her. So maybe we judge that because of this, the other girls' rights trump hers, and she is denied access to the changing room. Or maybe we judge that her rights are reasonably protected, and the girls who don't like it can continue to whine, but they don't really have a legally cognizable claim.

But let's say that she still has a penis because of the one year waiting period. In this case, legally speaking, there is a good reason (medically? ethically?) for restricting her right to having girl parts. So maybe in this case, the right to privacy can trump her right to the changing room (as there is precedent for restricting these rights for good reason). Maybe. But I think that's a pretty tough case to make. Again - whether the school has a rational basis for what it's doing is the question here. And the school has a rational basis for allowing this based on its desire to avoid litigation. Schools used to do okay coming in on the other side of that decision. Last couple years, schools denying use of bathrooms to transgender students are getting shellacked. See links below.

So when her right to live as a particular gender runs afoul of the right to other people's rights (in this case, the right to privacy), maybe we draw a line there? Seems like a simple, bright line test to me. Or maybe, when other people's right to avoid having a penis/###### in the locker room runs afoul of Title IX, draw the line there. Link. Link.

It ain't 2005 anymore. Schools know what's up, and the law is no longer on the side of keeping transgender teens out of the gender-preferred bathroom.

My argument is running at whether or not she is consistently identifying as her chosen gender. My point is that she is not consistently living as her chosen gender, which is how you said we judge these things. So I reckon that since she doesn't care about some aspects of being a girl, we can rightly restrict her rights in other aspects where she wants to be a girl. But only because there are other, legitimate, competing interests, not because "we don't like it when she wears a wig" or something like that.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

I've been thinking about the 1 year wait requirement. It seems to me that is more of a back-out clause or cooling off period if you will. Are there statistics on what percentage of transgender that change their mind and decide they are not transgender after all. Also what percentage actually follow thru with the full procedure.

I would do the research but our firewall prevents a lot of this type stuff.

 

[Henry Ford]

You link says that gender discrimination is a type of sex discrimination. So if that's true, than all gender discrimination is sex discrimination.

Yes, that's what that means. In the eyes of the law, all actionable gender discrimination is sex discrimination.

 

[Henry Ford]

We use gender because it's actually what we're talking about. We don't actually care if someone is genetically male or female, we just don't want to see a penis in the girls' room. But that's because we think it's icky. And that's a stupid reason to create a massive societal "rule." If someone who'd had gender reassignment surgery and had been living as a woman without a penis for 30 years got up from the table at a restaurant, kissed her husband, said she'd be right back and used the men's room, we'd think that was weird, too.

So how do we judge gender in a legal sense?

Honestly, we usually don't. Unless it's one of these cases. In which case, it usually comes down to the person... wait for it... living as a particular gender. Like using those restrooms and things.

Right, or wearing a wig (check), wearing a dress (check), appearing to have an eating disorder (check...I kid, I kid). She clearly has the freedom and ability to live as a particular gender with no issues for some aspects of her life. But what about in all areas of her life?

She has been prevented from living as her chosen gender because she has boy parts and not girl parts. This is either by choice or because of the 1 year waiting period. Or because she is 17. At any rate, she isn't being prevented.

She has been prevented from living as her chosen gender because she cannot use the girls' locker room at school. No - no, no, no. SHE is doing just fine. The school is letting her use the locker room. Her rights are kicking ### and taking names here.

This is because her rights run afoul of her school mate's right to privacy (or, more specifically, the right of the school not to be exposed to any right to privacy lawsuits). Again - she's winning with the school. It's those 150 other kids who are complaining.

Let's say that she still has a penis by choice. That seems to indicate that living as her chosen gender isn't an all or nothing proposition for her. So maybe we judge that because of this, the other girls' rights trump hers, and she is denied access to the changing room. Or maybe we judge that her rights are reasonably protected, and the girls who don't like it can continue to whine, but they don't really have a legally cognizable claim.

But let's say that she still has a penis because of the one year waiting period. In this case, legally speaking, there is a good reason (medically? ethically?) for restricting her right to having girl parts. So maybe in this case, the right to privacy can trump her right to the changing room (as there is precedent for restricting these rights for good reason). Maybe. But I think that's a pretty tough case to make. Again - whether the school has a rational basis for what it's doing is the question here. And the school has a rational basis for allowing this based on its desire to avoid litigation. Schools used to do okay coming in on the other side of that decision. Last couple years, schools denying use of bathrooms to transgender students are getting shellacked. See links below.

So when her right to live as a particular gender runs afoul of the right to other people's rights (in this case, the right to privacy), maybe we draw a line there? Seems like a simple, bright line test to me. Or maybe, when other people's right to avoid having a penis/###### in the locker room runs afoul of Title IX, draw the line there. Link. Link.

It ain't 2005 anymore. Schools know what's up, and the law is no longer on the side of keeping transgender teens out of the gender-preferred bathroom.

My argument is running at whether or not she is consistently identifying as her chosen gender. My point is that she is not consistently living as her chosen gender, which is how you said we judge these things. So I reckon that since she doesn't care about some aspects of being a girl, we can rightly restrict her rights in other aspects where she wants to be a girl. But only because there are other, legitimate, competing interests, not because "we don't like it when she wears a wig" or something like that.

I'll try this one more time - having a PENIS (SEX characteristic) is irrelevant to living in society as a WOMAN (GENDER determination.)

 

[Henry Ford]

I've been thinking about the 1 year wait requirement. It seems to me that is more of a back-out clause or cooling off period if you will. Are there statistics on what percentage of transgender that change their mind and decide they are not transgender after all. Also what percentage actually follow thru with the full procedure.

I would do the research but our firewall prevents a lot of this type stuff.

Medical right to privacy would make this pretty darned tough to find out even without the firewall.

 

[loser]

How do bathrooms work in gay bars? Is the men's room like a free buffet?

 

[matttyl]

You link says that gender discrimination is a type of sex discrimination. So if that's true, than all gender discrimination is sex discrimination.

Yes, that's what that means. In the eyes of the law, all actionable gender discrimination is sex discrimination.

Ok, so why didn't you answer the other part of my post? If the school allows her to use the women's locker room, then since she's still a male by sex - they are sex discriminating against her (but she obviously won't care). If they only allow her to use the men's locker room (as a male), then they are no longer sex discriminating against her (as again, she is a male by sex), but rather gender discriminating against her.

Also, why does gender trump sex in these situations? If your sex is one, use that. If it's the other, use that one. If it's in the neither or both, you choose (which is likely going to be the dominate sex).

Also, also....can someone identify as neither gender. If so, does sex then determine restroom usage?

 

[Zow]

I suppose this has been mentioned somewhere in these 9 pages but I assume kids aren't stripping down naked, lining up and then showering together for gym class these days.

Not generally, no.

No kidding. I tried to be naked for approximately .012 seconds when showering in the locker room in high school. So did everyone else - except for that one weirdo on the football team who thought it funny to run around naked and fake hump people which totally makes complete sense when he gets busted for public sexual indecency and exposing himself to minors five years later.

But it's just a penis, officer!

My point was more so that in a high school locker room kids aren't exactly naked for very long. So, if this girl with a penis needs to be naked I'm guessing it'll only be for a few short seconds.

 

[Zow]

We use gender because it's actually what we're talking about. We don't actually care if someone is genetically male or female, we just don't want to see a penis in the girls' room. But that's because we think it's icky. And that's a stupid reason to create a massive societal "rule." If someone who'd had gender reassignment surgery and had been living as a woman without a penis for 30 years got up from the table at a restaurant, kissed her husband, said she'd be right back and used the men's room, we'd think that was weird, too.

So how do we judge gender in a legal sense?

Honestly, we usually don't. Unless it's one of these cases. In which case, it usually comes down to the person... wait for it... living as a particular gender. Like using those restrooms and things.

Right, or wearing a wig (check), wearing a dress (check), appearing to have an eating disorder (check...I kid, I kid). She clearly has the freedom and ability to live as a particular gender with no issues for some aspects of her life. But what about in all areas of her life?

She has been prevented from living as her chosen gender because she has boy parts and not girl parts. This is either by choice or because of the 1 year waiting period. Or because she is 17. At any rate, she isn't being prevented.

She has been prevented from living as her chosen gender because she cannot use the girls' locker room at school. No - no, no, no. SHE is doing just fine. The school is letting her use the locker room. Her rights are kicking ### and taking names here.

This is because her rights run afoul of her school mate's right to privacy (or, more specifically, the right of the school not to be exposed to any right to privacy lawsuits). Again - she's winning with the school. It's those 150 other kids who are complaining.

Let's say that she still has a penis by choice. That seems to indicate that living as her chosen gender isn't an all or nothing proposition for her. So maybe we judge that because of this, the other girls' rights trump hers, and she is denied access to the changing room. Or maybe we judge that her rights are reasonably protected, and the girls who don't like it can continue to whine, but they don't really have a legally cognizable claim.

But let's say that she still has a penis because of the one year waiting period. In this case, legally speaking, there is a good reason (medically? ethically?) for restricting her right to having girl parts. So maybe in this case, the right to privacy can trump her right to the changing room (as there is precedent for restricting these rights for good reason). Maybe. But I think that's a pretty tough case to make. Again - whether the school has a rational basis for what it's doing is the question here. And the school has a rational basis for allowing this based on its desire to avoid litigation. Schools used to do okay coming in on the other side of that decision. Last couple years, schools denying use of bathrooms to transgender students are getting shellacked. See links below.

So when her right to live as a particular gender runs afoul of the right to other people's rights (in this case, the right to privacy), maybe we draw a line there? Seems like a simple, bright line test to me. Or maybe, when other people's right to avoid having a penis/###### in the locker room runs afoul of Title IX, draw the line there. Link. Link.

It ain't 2005 anymore. Schools know what's up, and the law is no longer on the side of keeping transgender teens out of the gender-preferred bathroom.

The above post makes me conclude that if I were transgendered and attracted to men I'd probably have a crush on Henry.

 

[Meatwad Reloaded]

Rockaction you keep warning about these slippery slopes. Yet we all know that transgender people do exist and many are high school students. So if you had your way, what should we do about it?

I'd stick largely to biology as far as the restrooms -- and especially lockers -- go. Then I'd instruct the tenth graders to take a class in it.

That's not flippant, by the way, I really would. If we could get an honest biology class discussing the difference between the sexes, that would be even better, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Why don't we just refer to what all lazy, intellectual liberals use to fall back on in the midst of their asinine temper tantrums...science!!!!!

If you were born with a penis, you are a man, deal with it.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Rockaction you keep warning about these slippery slopes. Yet we all know that transgender people do exist and many are high school students. So if you had your way, what should we do about it?

I'd stick largely to biology as far as the restrooms -- and especially lockers -- go. Then I'd instruct the tenth graders to take a class in it.

That's not flippant, by the way, I really would. If we could get an honest biology class discussing the difference between the sexes, that would be even better, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Why don't we just refer to what all lazy, intellectual liberals use to fall back on in the midst of their asinine temper tantrums...science!!!!!

If you were born with a penis, you are a man, deal with it.

Not until you are 40.

 

[Zow]

Rockaction you keep warning about these slippery slopes. Yet we all know that transgender people do exist and many are high school students. So if you had your way, what should we do about it?

I'd stick largely to biology as far as the restrooms -- and especially lockers -- go. Then I'd instruct the tenth graders to take a class in it.

That's not flippant, by the way, I really would. If we could get an honest biology class discussing the difference between the sexes, that would be even better, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Why don't we just refer to what all lazy, intellectual liberals use to fall back on in the midst of their asinine temper tantrums...science!!!!!

If you were born with a penis, you are a man, deal with it.

Aren't you supposed to be out heckling Weird Al?

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/30/1397891/-Westboro-Baptist-Picketing-Weird-Al-Disparages-His-Late-Parents#

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

How do bathrooms work in gay bars? Is the men's room like a free buffet?

I was at one where the urinal was a large round tub in the center of the bathroom. There were individuals loitering at various places around its circumference waiting to check out the packages of those having to urinate. There was no subtlety to their purpose as they would hoot and holler whenever a new package was exposed. It was actually pretty funny.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Still not sure I understand the concern.

Are we afraid 17 yo girls are going to see a penis? Are we sure that the TG student is walking around with his junk out? My memories of high school PE are a bit fuzzy, but I don't recall getting naked in the locker room. A quick change of clothes before PE, and then a quick change back. I don't think there was any showering going on. But let say the TG student let her penis out - are we afraid this will make the students want to have sex? I imagine the TG student is more embarrassed by the penis, than the other girls would be?

Are we afraid the TG student is going to see 17yo girls in bras and panties? Based on what little I saw of the student - looks like she wears her own bra and panties - I doubt that she is seeing anything new.

Are we afraid the TG student is going to sexually assault one of the other girls? Any evidence to support that? I am definitely against sexual assault - but it seems that if the TG student were inclined to do that - a locker room full of other girls is probably not the place to accomplish that?

Where is the real fear here?

 

[AAABatteries]

So, if this girl with a penis needs to be naked I'm guessing it'll only be for a few short seconds.

I'm not sure what to do with comments like this - I'm very much a live and let live person but something about this statement is just odd. I'm not sure I even have a point to make - I just struggle what to do with that.

 

[Henry Ford]

You link says that gender discrimination is a type of sex discrimination. So if that's true, than all gender discrimination is sex discrimination.

Yes, that's what that means. In the eyes of the law, all actionable gender discrimination is sex discrimination.

Ok, so why didn't you answer the other part of my post? If the school allows her to use the women's locker room, then since she's still a male by sex - they are sex discriminating against her (but she obviously won't care). If they only allow her to use the men's locker room (as a male), then they are no longer sex discriminating against her (as again, she is a male by sex), but rather gender discriminating against her.

Also, why does gender trump sex in these situations? If your sex is one, use that. If it's the other, use that one. If it's in the neither or both, you choose (which is likely going to be the dominate sex).

Also, also....can someone identify as neither gender. If so, does sex then determine restroom usage?

1. If the school allows her to use whatever restroom she wants to use based on her gender, she's not being discriminated against. If they tell her "no, you must use the women's room, not the men's room" because she presents herself as a woman, there is a reasonable chance there's a sex discrimination suit in there.

2. Gender "trumps" sex in this situation because we don't have things set up based on sex, we have them set up by gender. For instance, there is no intersex bathroom. If you get to "choose" in any situation, then the idea of bathrooms based on defined characteristics is stupid, and we can agree that it's based on how you identify for at least some people. In which case, it should be expanded to anyone who has a strong, reasonable, cognizable interest in that choice.

3. Yup. "Third Gender" is a way some people do this. For convenience sake, many of those people use the restroom that fits with their birth sex. Some use whatever's closest. Some use whatever keeps them from being next to/around the people they're attracted to while using the restroom. But it's a real problem for people in that community sometimes. In fact, some countries and areas recognize the "third gender" and have a facility for those people. Signage is an issue. Lots of people hate this one, but it's in use in some countries.

 

[Henry Ford]

Rockaction you keep warning about these slippery slopes. Yet we all know that transgender people do exist and many are high school students. So if you had your way, what should we do about it?

I'd stick largely to biology as far as the restrooms -- and especially lockers -- go. Then I'd instruct the tenth graders to take a class in it.

That's not flippant, by the way, I really would. If we could get an honest biology class discussing the difference between the sexes, that would be even better, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Why don't we just refer to what all lazy, intellectual liberals use to fall back on in the midst of their asinine temper tantrums...science!!!!!

If you were born with a penis, you are a man, deal with it.

Science disagrees with your statement.

 

[Henry Ford]

So, if this girl with a penis needs to be naked I'm guessing it'll only be for a few short seconds.

I'm not sure what to do with comments like this - I'm very much a live and let live person but something about this statement is just odd. I'm not sure I even have a point to make - I just struggle what to do with that.

A lot of people do. It's maybe the most obvious and most insidious part of this debate at the same time.

"WTF does that mean?" is not a policy stance. But it is often the driving force behind the wall of resistance transgender people run up against.

 

[Juxtatarot]

Still not sure I understand the concern.

Are we afraid 17 yo girls are going to see a penis? Are we sure that the TG student is walking around with his junk out? My memories of high school PE are a bit fuzzy, but I don't recall getting naked in the locker room. A quick change of clothes before PE, and then a quick change back. I don't think there was any showering going on. But let say the TG student let her penis out - are we afraid this will make the students want to have sex? I imagine the TG student is more embarrassed by the penis, than the other girls would be?

Are we afraid the TG student is going to see 17yo girls in bras and panties? Based on what little I saw of the student - looks like she wears her own bra and panties - I doubt that she is seeing anything new.

Are we afraid the TG student is going to sexually assault one of the other girls? Any evidence to support that? I am definitely against sexual assault - but it seems that if the TG student were inclined to do that - a locker room full of other girls is probably not the place to accomplish that?

Where is the real fear here?

I think it's the fear that a Huckabee boy will pretend to be transgendered and sneak a peek at their daughters in underwear.

 

[Henry Ford]

I've been thinking about the 1 year wait requirement. It seems to me that is more of a back-out clause or cooling off period if you will. Are there statistics on what percentage of transgender that change their mind and decide they are not transgender after all. Also what percentage actually follow thru with the full procedure.

I would do the research but our firewall prevents a lot of this type stuff.

Yeah, it's related to the fact that gender dysphoria is considered a medical condition. Treatment for lots of diseases is no big deal - take a pill, get a nerve block injection, whatever. But when you're cutting off a penis - or constructing one and closing off a ###### and giving a hysterectomy at the same time - they want to make sure you're good with living as the other gender for a real period of time before entering into that phase of treatment.

3 months for the chest, 1 year for the bottom half.

 

[Zow]

So, if this girl with a penis needs to be naked I'm guessing it'll only be for a few short seconds.

I'm not sure what to do with comments like this - I'm very much a live and let live person but something about this statement is just odd. I'm not sure I even have a point to make - I just struggle what to do with that.

Frankly I get that. It's definitely weird and not a statement I would have written ten years ago. But learning more about the issue makes one realize that gender and sex really is more gray than black and white.

 

[Black Box]

I'll try this one more time - having a PENIS (SEX characteristic) is irrelevant to living in society as a WOMAN (GENDER determination.)

Whoops, didn't intend to cross that line. Scratch that part of the argument.

 

[Fennis]

How do bathrooms work in gay bars? Is the men's room like a free buffet?

I was at one where the urinal was a large round tub in the center of the bathroom. There were individuals loitering at various places around its circumference waiting to check out the packages of those having to urinate. There was no subtlety to their purpose as they would hoot and holler whenever a new package was exposed. It was actually pretty funny.

having to chub up before taking a piss is a lot of pressure

 

[matttyl]

1. If the school allows her to use whatever restroom she wants to use based on her gender, she's not being discriminated against. If they tell her "no, you must use the women's room, not the men's room" because she presents herself as a woman, there is a reasonable chance there's a sex discrimination suit in there.

2. Gender "trumps" sex in this situation because we don't have things set up based on sex, we have them set up by gender. For instance, there is no intersex bathroom. If you get to "choose" in any situation, then the idea of bathrooms based on defined characteristics is stupid, and we can agree that it's based on how you identify for at least some people. In which case, it should be expanded to anyone who has a strong, reasonable, cognizable interest in that choice.

3. Yup. "Third Gender" is a way some people do this. For convenience sake, many of those people use the restroom that fits with their birth sex. Some use whatever's closest. Some use whatever keeps them from being next to/around the people they're attracted to while using the restroom. But it's a real problem for people in that community sometimes. In fact, some countries and areas recognize the "third gender" and have a facility for those people. Signage is an issue. Lots of people hate this one, but it's in use in some countries.

1. So it's a no win case for the school systems even if they give this student want she wants. They are telling her to use the women's room, but that's a "reasonable chance there is a sex discrimination suit". They have to implement a "go wherever you want" philosophy. Right? They say use the boys room, that's gender discrimination. They say use the girls room, that's sex discrimination. It's literally no win for them.

3. So why is it easier to base things on gender than sex when there is a "third gender"? Are there more "third gender" folks than "neither sex" folks?

 

[pantagrapher]

Still not sure I understand the concern.

Are we afraid 17 yo girls are going to see a penis? Are we sure that the TG student is walking around with his junk out? My memories of high school PE are a bit fuzzy, but I don't recall getting naked in the locker room. A quick change of clothes before PE, and then a quick change back. I don't think there was any showering going on. But let say the TG student let her penis out - are we afraid this will make the students want to have sex? I imagine the TG student is more embarrassed by the penis, than the other girls would be?

Are we afraid the TG student is going to see 17yo girls in bras and panties? Based on what little I saw of the student - looks like she wears her own bra and panties - I doubt that she is seeing anything new.

Are we afraid the TG student is going to sexually assault one of the other girls? Any evidence to support that? I am definitely against sexual assault - but it seems that if the TG student were inclined to do that - a locker room full of other girls is probably not the place to accomplish that?

Where is the real fear here?

Who said having separate lockers rooms for boys and girls is based on fear?

ETA: Also, you never showered after gym class? Did you not sweat or something?

 

[ATC1]

Still not sure I understand the concern.

Are we afraid 17 yo girls are going to see a penis? Are we sure that the TG student is walking around with his junk out? My memories of high school PE are a bit fuzzy, but I don't recall getting naked in the locker room. A quick change of clothes before PE, and then a quick change back. I don't think there was any showering going on. But let say the TG student let her penis out - are we afraid this will make the students want to have sex? I imagine the TG student is more embarrassed by the penis, than the other girls would be?

Are we afraid the TG student is going to see 17yo girls in bras and panties? Based on what little I saw of the student - looks like she wears her own bra and panties - I doubt that she is seeing anything new.

Are we afraid the TG student is going to sexually assault one of the other girls? Any evidence to support that? I am definitely against sexual assault - but it seems that if the TG student were inclined to do that - a locker room full of other girls is probably not the place to accomplish that?

Where is the real fear here?

The fear is whatever precedent is set now will be the precedent that will be set for all school locker rooms. Would it matter if this was a 14 year old? What if there were showers? What if one of the girls does feel uncomfortable with other TG persons where she does feel the only reason they consider themselves transgender is to be in the girls locker room.

I would say that most HS students could handle an R rated movie and yet because of legal issues teachers need permission to show movies in a school setting. Even if the movie just shows the penis of a trans gendered person. It would be rated R and thus need a permission form. I don't see what the difference is here. Should a HS girl freak out at the site of a penis? No, but it shouldn't be at the discression of the school to force a girl to look at one.

 

[Jayrod]

This is my wife's alma mater. Her childhood friend and husband are teachers there.

This whole story is insane to me. Something like this makes me think homeschooling isn't a bad idea.

Transgenderism is hardly a settled, biological fact. To treat it as such in society, especially schools, and force it upon all of the population for the comfort of the few rare individuals is wrong. I believe all students should be protected from bullying and given accommodations within reason, but to swing the pendulum so far in the other direction so that the girls are forced to share a locker room with a person whose sex is male is crazy.

 

[Henry Ford]

1. If the school allows her to use whatever restroom she wants to use based on her gender, she's not being discriminated against. If they tell her "no, you must use the women's room, not the men's room" because she presents herself as a woman, there is a reasonable chance there's a sex discrimination suit in there.

2. Gender "trumps" sex in this situation because we don't have things set up based on sex, we have them set up by gender. For instance, there is no intersex bathroom. If you get to "choose" in any situation, then the idea of bathrooms based on defined characteristics is stupid, and we can agree that it's based on how you identify for at least some people. In which case, it should be expanded to anyone who has a strong, reasonable, cognizable interest in that choice.

3. Yup. "Third Gender" is a way some people do this. For convenience sake, many of those people use the restroom that fits with their birth sex. Some use whatever's closest. Some use whatever keeps them from being next to/around the people they're attracted to while using the restroom. But it's a real problem for people in that community sometimes. In fact, some countries and areas recognize the "third gender" and have a facility for those people. Signage is an issue. Lots of people hate this one, but it's in use in some countries.

1. So it's a no win case for the school systems even if they give this student want she wants. They are telling her to use the women's room, but that's a "reasonable chance there is a sex discrimination suit". They have to implement a "go wherever you want" philosophy. Right? They say use the boys room, that's gender discrimination. They say use the girls room, that's sex discrimination. It's literally no win for them.

3. So why is it easier to base things on gender than sex when there is a "third gender"? Are there more "third gender" folks than "neither sex" folks?

1. No, they are telling her that she can use the women's restroom, because that is what she has presented as her request. No one has told her she can't use the men's room.

3. Because testing someone's hormone levels, chromosomes, sexual organs, etc. every time they want to go to the bathroom is very time consuming.

 

[Zow]

This is my wife's alma mater. Her childhood friend and husband are teachers there.

This whole story is insane to me. Something like this makes me think homeschooling isn't a bad idea.

Transgenderism is hardly a settled, biological fact. To treat it as such in society, especially schools, and force it upon all of the population for the comfort of the few rare individuals is wrong. I believe all students should be protected from bullying and given accommodations within reason, but to swing the pendulum so far in the other direction so that the girls are forced to share a locker room with a person whose sex is male is crazy.

You'd seriously home school your kids because they'd have to share a bathroom with somebody with different parts?

 

[Henry Ford]

Still not sure I understand the concern.

Are we afraid 17 yo girls are going to see a penis? Are we sure that the TG student is walking around with his junk out? My memories of high school PE are a bit fuzzy, but I don't recall getting naked in the locker room. A quick change of clothes before PE, and then a quick change back. I don't think there was any showering going on. But let say the TG student let her penis out - are we afraid this will make the students want to have sex? I imagine the TG student is more embarrassed by the penis, than the other girls would be?

Are we afraid the TG student is going to see 17yo girls in bras and panties? Based on what little I saw of the student - looks like she wears her own bra and panties - I doubt that she is seeing anything new.

Are we afraid the TG student is going to sexually assault one of the other girls? Any evidence to support that? I am definitely against sexual assault - but it seems that if the TG student were inclined to do that - a locker room full of other girls is probably not the place to accomplish that?

Where is the real fear here?

The fear is whatever precedent is set now will be the precedent that will be set for all school locker rooms. Would it matter if this was a 14 year old? What if there were showers? What if one of the girls does feel uncomfortable with other TG persons where she does feel the only reason they consider themselves transgender is to be in the girls locker room.

I would say that most HS students could handle an R rated movie and yet because of legal issues teachers need permission to show movies in a school setting. Even if the movie just shows the penis of a trans gendered person. It would be rated R and thus need a permission form. I don't see what the difference is here. Should a HS girl freak out at the site of a penis? No, but it shouldn't be at the discression of the school to force a girl to look at one.

Who is forcing her to look? That movie with a penis in it would require a permission slip from boys' and girls' parents, right? Why are boys allowed in a locker room with penises? Hint: Even if you're in a locker room, you don't have to look at anyone else's genitals.

 

[Jayrod]

This is my wife's alma mater. Her childhood friend and husband are teachers there.

This whole story is insane to me. Something like this makes me think homeschooling isn't a bad idea.

Transgenderism is hardly a settled, biological fact. To treat it as such in society, especially schools, and force it upon all of the population for the comfort of the few rare individuals is wrong. I believe all students should be protected from bullying and given accommodations within reason, but to swing the pendulum so far in the other direction so that the girls are forced to share a locker room with a person whose sex is male is crazy.

You'd seriously home school your kids because they'd have to share a bathroom with somebody with different parts?

Yes. Absolutely.

But then again, I have some "archaic" beliefs about sex and modesty that don't play well in our current "modern" society.

I use quotes, because these things are merely cyclical. Sexuality has yo-yo'd throughout history, round and round it goes. We are simply on an upswing to one extreme direction after a few centuries of swinging in the extreme other direction. Somewhere in the middle is the true healthy location we were meant to exist in, but the free-for-all that sex/gender issues is becoming is not healthy and I'm not going to allow my teenage children to be forced into it (when they get there...they currently are 9 & 5).

 

[ATC1]

This is my wife's alma mater. Her childhood friend and husband are teachers there.

This whole story is insane to me. Something like this makes me think homeschooling isn't a bad idea.

Transgenderism is hardly a settled, biological fact. To treat it as such in society, especially schools, and force it upon all of the population for the comfort of the few rare individuals is wrong. I believe all students should be protected from bullying and given accommodations within reason, but to swing the pendulum so far in the other direction so that the girls are forced to share a locker room with a person whose sex is male is crazy.

You'd seriously home school your kids because they'd have to share a bathroom with somebody with different parts?

No, probably because schools are so affraid of being sued for discrimination that they disregard the well being of other students to comply.

Still not sure I understand the concern.

Are we afraid 17 yo girls are going to see a penis? Are we sure that the TG student is walking around with his junk out? My memories of high school PE are a bit fuzzy, but I don't recall getting naked in the locker room. A quick change of clothes before PE, and then a quick change back. I don't think there was any showering going on. But let say the TG student let her penis out - are we afraid this will make the students want to have sex? I imagine the TG student is more embarrassed by the penis, than the other girls would be?

Are we afraid the TG student is going to see 17yo girls in bras and panties? Based on what little I saw of the student - looks like she wears her own bra and panties - I doubt that she is seeing anything new.

Are we afraid the TG student is going to sexually assault one of the other girls? Any evidence to support that? I am definitely against sexual assault - but it seems that if the TG student were inclined to do that - a locker room full of other girls is probably not the place to accomplish that?

Where is the real fear here?

The fear is whatever precedent is set now will be the precedent that will be set for all school locker rooms. Would it matter if this was a 14 year old? What if there were showers? What if one of the girls does feel uncomfortable with other TG persons where she does feel the only reason they consider themselves transgender is to be in the girls locker room.

I would say that most HS students could handle an R rated movie and yet because of legal issues teachers need permission to show movies in a school setting. Even if the movie just shows the penis of a trans gendered person. It would be rated R and thus need a permission form. I don't see what the difference is here. Should a HS girl freak out at the site of a penis? No, but it shouldn't be at the discression of the school to force a girl to look at one.

Who is forcing her to look? That movie with a penis in it would require a permission slip from boys' and girls' parents, right? Why are boys allowed in a locker room with penises? Hint: Even if you're in a locker room, you don't have to look at anyone else's genitals.

You are also not required to be in the same room as the movie being played. However, to be in that classroom playing the movie a permission slip needs to be signed.

 

[Henry Ford]

This is my wife's alma mater. Her childhood friend and husband are teachers there.

This whole story is insane to me. Something like this makes me think homeschooling isn't a bad idea.

Transgenderism is hardly a settled, biological fact. To treat it as such in society, especially schools, and force it upon all of the population for the comfort of the few rare individuals is wrong. I believe all students should be protected from bullying and given accommodations within reason, but to swing the pendulum so far in the other direction so that the girls are forced to share a locker room with a person whose sex is male is crazy.

You'd seriously home school your kids because they'd have to share a bathroom with somebody with different parts?

No, probably because schools are so affraid of being sued for discrimination that they disregard the well being of other students to comply.

Still not sure I understand the concern.

Are we afraid 17 yo girls are going to see a penis? Are we sure that the TG student is walking around with his junk out? My memories of high school PE are a bit fuzzy, but I don't recall getting naked in the locker room. A quick change of clothes before PE, and then a quick change back. I don't think there was any showering going on. But let say the TG student let her penis out - are we afraid this will make the students want to have sex? I imagine the TG student is more embarrassed by the penis, than the other girls would be?

Are we afraid the TG student is going to see 17yo girls in bras and panties? Based on what little I saw of the student - looks like she wears her own bra and panties - I doubt that she is seeing anything new.

Are we afraid the TG student is going to sexually assault one of the other girls? Any evidence to support that? I am definitely against sexual assault - but it seems that if the TG student were inclined to do that - a locker room full of other girls is probably not the place to accomplish that?

Where is the real fear here?

The fear is whatever precedent is set now will be the precedent that will be set for all school locker rooms. Would it matter if this was a 14 year old? What if there were showers? What if one of the girls does feel uncomfortable with other TG persons where she does feel the only reason they consider themselves transgender is to be in the girls locker room.

I would say that most HS students could handle an R rated movie and yet because of legal issues teachers need permission to show movies in a school setting. Even if the movie just shows the penis of a trans gendered person. It would be rated R and thus need a permission form. I don't see what the difference is here. Should a HS girl freak out at the site of a penis? No, but it shouldn't be at the discression of the school to force a girl to look at one.

Who is forcing her to look? That movie with a penis in it would require a permission slip from boys' and girls' parents, right? Why are boys allowed in a locker room with penises? Hint: Even if you're in a locker room, you don't have to look at anyone else's genitals.

You are also not required to be in the same room as the movie being played. However, to be in that classroom playing the movie a permission slip needs to be signed.

...because watching it is an assignment for the class, which involves looking at the penis.

You can be in a locker room and never once look at anyone else's junk.

Did you have to sign a permission slip to be in a locker room with penises in high school?

 

[ATC1]

This is my wife's alma mater. Her childhood friend and husband are teachers there.

This whole story is insane to me. Something like this makes me think homeschooling isn't a bad idea.

Transgenderism is hardly a settled, biological fact. To treat it as such in society, especially schools, and force it upon all of the population for the comfort of the few rare individuals is wrong. I believe all students should be protected from bullying and given accommodations within reason, but to swing the pendulum so far in the other direction so that the girls are forced to share a locker room with a person whose sex is male is crazy.

You'd seriously home school your kids because they'd have to share a bathroom with somebody with different parts?

No, probably because schools are so affraid of being sued for discrimination that they disregard the well being of other students to comply.

Still not sure I understand the concern.

Are we afraid 17 yo girls are going to see a penis? Are we sure that the TG student is walking around with his junk out? My memories of high school PE are a bit fuzzy, but I don't recall getting naked in the locker room. A quick change of clothes before PE, and then a quick change back. I don't think there was any showering going on. But let say the TG student let her penis out - are we afraid this will make the students want to have sex? I imagine the TG student is more embarrassed by the penis, than the other girls would be?

Are we afraid the TG student is going to see 17yo girls in bras and panties? Based on what little I saw of the student - looks like she wears her own bra and panties - I doubt that she is seeing anything new.

Are we afraid the TG student is going to sexually assault one of the other girls? Any evidence to support that? I am definitely against sexual assault - but it seems that if the TG student were inclined to do that - a locker room full of other girls is probably not the place to accomplish that?

Where is the real fear here?

The fear is whatever precedent is set now will be the precedent that will be set for all school locker rooms. Would it matter if this was a 14 year old? What if there were showers? What if one of the girls does feel uncomfortable with other TG persons where she does feel the only reason they consider themselves transgender is to be in the girls locker room.

I would say that most HS students could handle an R rated movie and yet because of legal issues teachers need permission to show movies in a school setting. Even if the movie just shows the penis of a trans gendered person. It would be rated R and thus need a permission form. I don't see what the difference is here. Should a HS girl freak out at the site of a penis? No, but it shouldn't be at the discression of the school to force a girl to look at one.

Who is forcing her to look? That movie with a penis in it would require a permission slip from boys' and girls' parents, right? Why are boys allowed in a locker room with penises? Hint: Even if you're in a locker room, you don't have to look at anyone else's genitals.

You are also not required to be in the same room as the movie being played. However, to be in that classroom playing the movie a permission slip needs to be signed.

...because watching it is an assignment for the class, which involves looking at the penis.

You can be in a locker room and never once look at anyone else's junk.

Did you have to sign a permission slip to be in a locker room with penises in high school?

I have to assume that if I walk into the boys locker room I may come across one. That goes without saying. I would also say that if I am required to change in there everyday that it is a certainy that I will eventually see one.

 

[Henry Ford]

This is my wife's alma mater. Her childhood friend and husband are teachers there.

This whole story is insane to me. Something like this makes me think homeschooling isn't a bad idea.

Transgenderism is hardly a settled, biological fact. To treat it as such in society, especially schools, and force it upon all of the population for the comfort of the few rare individuals is wrong. I believe all students should be protected from bullying and given accommodations within reason, but to swing the pendulum so far in the other direction so that the girls are forced to share a locker room with a person whose sex is male is crazy.

You'd seriously home school your kids because they'd have to share a bathroom with somebody with different parts?

No, probably because schools are so affraid of being sued for discrimination that they disregard the well being of other students to comply.

Still not sure I understand the concern.

Are we afraid 17 yo girls are going to see a penis? Are we sure that the TG student is walking around with his junk out? My memories of high school PE are a bit fuzzy, but I don't recall getting naked in the locker room. A quick change of clothes before PE, and then a quick change back. I don't think there was any showering going on. But let say the TG student let her penis out - are we afraid this will make the students want to have sex? I imagine the TG student is more embarrassed by the penis, than the other girls would be?

Are we afraid the TG student is going to see 17yo girls in bras and panties? Based on what little I saw of the student - looks like she wears her own bra and panties - I doubt that she is seeing anything new.

Are we afraid the TG student is going to sexually assault one of the other girls? Any evidence to support that? I am definitely against sexual assault - but it seems that if the TG student were inclined to do that - a locker room full of other girls is probably not the place to accomplish that?

Where is the real fear here?

The fear is whatever precedent is set now will be the precedent that will be set for all school locker rooms. Would it matter if this was a 14 year old? What if there were showers? What if one of the girls does feel uncomfortable with other TG persons where she does feel the only reason they consider themselves transgender is to be in the girls locker room.

I would say that most HS students could handle an R rated movie and yet because of legal issues teachers need permission to show movies in a school setting. Even if the movie just shows the penis of a trans gendered person. It would be rated R and thus need a permission form. I don't see what the difference is here. Should a HS girl freak out at the site of a penis? No, but it shouldn't be at the discression of the school to force a girl to look at one.

Who is forcing her to look? That movie with a penis in it would require a permission slip from boys' and girls' parents, right? Why are boys allowed in a locker room with penises? Hint: Even if you're in a locker room, you don't have to look at anyone else's genitals.

You are also not required to be in the same room as the movie being played. However, to be in that classroom playing the movie a permission slip needs to be signed.

...because watching it is an assignment for the class, which involves looking at the penis.

You can be in a locker room and never once look at anyone else's junk.

Did you have to sign a permission slip to be in a locker room with penises in high school?

I have to assume that if I walk into the boys locker room I may come across one. That goes without saying. I would also say that if I am required to change in there everyday that it is a certainy that I will eventually see one.

That's really odd.

 

[sublimeone]

Henry, go outside.

 

[St. Louis Bob]

How do bathrooms work in gay bars? Is the men's room like a free buffet?

I was at one where the urinal was a large round tub in the center of the bathroom. There were individuals loitering at various places around its circumference waiting to check out the packages of those having to urinate. There was no subtlety to their purpose as they would hoot and holler whenever a new package was exposed. It was actually pretty funny.

having to chub up before taking a piss is a lot of pressure

and if you take it too far you're pissing in guy's faces.

 

[Henry Ford]

Henry, go outside.

No.

 

[Henry Ford]

How do bathrooms work in gay bars? Is the men's room like a free buffet?

I was at one where the urinal was a large round tub in the center of the bathroom. There were individuals loitering at various places around its circumference waiting to check out the packages of those having to urinate. There was no subtlety to their purpose as they would hoot and holler whenever a new package was exposed. It was actually pretty funny.

having to chub up before taking a piss is a lot of pressure

and if you take it too far you're pissing in guy's faces.

Or just far enough.

 

[sublimeone]

Henry, go outside.

No.

I think you're bat**** insane but your stamina is unmatched.

 

[Henry Ford]

Henry, go outside.

No.

I think you're bat**** insane but your stamina is unmatched.

Of the two of us, one of us is in agreement with the Department of Justice, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, the U.S. Department of Education, the Supreme Judicial Court of Maine, and the American Psychiatric Association, among others. You're the other one.

 

[fantasycurse42]

Love how almost 20% of board members are too frightened to show their faces on this poll and only view the results... I know you have an opinion, stop being a wuss.

 

[sublimeone]

Henry, go outside.

No.

I think you're bat**** insane but your stamina is unmatched.

Of the two of us, one of us is in agreement with the Department of Justice, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, the U.S. Department of Education, the Supreme Judicial Court of Maine, and the American Psychiatric Association, among others. You're the other one.

Henry Ford in this thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPw-3e_pzqU

 

[rockaction]

Henry, go outside.

No.

I think you're bat**** insane but your stamina is unmatched.

Of the two of us, one of us is in agreement with the Department of Justice, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, the U.S. Department of Education, the Supreme Judicial Court of Maine, and the American Psychiatric Association, among others. You're the other one.

That rejoinder really says nothing about bat#### insanity. It merely makes a claim of the political class.

Hell, Stalin had those executive offices still. Citing to authority doesn't settle the argument of what is biologically insane.

 

[Zow]

This is my wife's alma mater. Her childhood friend and husband are teachers there.

This whole story is insane to me. Something like this makes me think homeschooling isn't a bad idea.

Transgenderism is hardly a settled, biological fact. To treat it as such in society, especially schools, and force it upon all of the population for the comfort of the few rare individuals is wrong. I believe all students should be protected from bullying and given accommodations within reason, but to swing the pendulum so far in the other direction so that the girls are forced to share a locker room with a person whose sex is male is crazy.

You'd seriously home school your kids because they'd have to share a bathroom with somebody with different parts?

Yes. Absolutely.

But then again, I have some "archaic" beliefs about sex and modesty that don't play well in our current "modern" society.

I use quotes, because these things are merely cyclical. Sexuality has yo-yo'd throughout history, round and round it goes. We are simply on an upswing to one extreme direction after a few centuries of swinging in the extreme other direction. Somewhere in the middle is the true healthy location we were meant to exist in, but the free-for-all that sex/gender issues is becoming is not healthy and I'm not going to allow my teenage children to be forced into it (when they get there...they currently are 9 & 5).

Good God