Humanitarian crisis at US border (1 Viewer)

[timschochet]

if they are already illegal, then they’re bound not to respect our laws, so they’re much more likely to become criminal.

Well actually no:

http://reason.com/archives/2013/02/07/5-reasons-for-amnesty-for-illegal-immigr/2

While illegal immigration is a crime, the act of crossing the border without authorization is a mere misdemeanor. Immigrants, in fact, may help drive crime down. The vast majority want to stay in the country in order to work and so naturally steer clear of breaking any laws. And as The Future of Freedom Foundation's Sheldon Richman pointed out a few years ago, all manners of violent crimes dropped dramatically since 1986, the last time an amnesty was granted to illegal immigrants. Yes, 14 percent of federal inmates are illegal immigrants, but they are largely there for immigration violations. On the state level, Richman notes, less than 5 percent of inmates are illegal immigrants. Not exactly the makings of a crime wave.

This should really make obvious sense to anyone who thinks about this. Since most illegal immigrants are here for work (averaging 12-14 hours a day) and don't want to be deported, they are careful NOT to break laws, probably much more so than common citizens- they don't want to be noticed.

 

[jonessed]

I wonder how many of our ancestors came here illegally. I know at least one branch of my family were French Hugenots (sp?) who got the hell out of France before they could be rounded up and dispatched. They hid in the swamps of Southern Maryland before founding many of the small towns there. My uncle ran all of the details down several years ago, such as they are, but it appears that that we were just "assumed" to be legal. Maybe the fact that they were of (mostly - if they did nothing else, Rome ####ed everywhere they went)) Northern European descent had something to do with it

My grandmother on my fathers side wound up at the end of World War II, having survived the Holocaust, in the Russian sector of Vienna. In the middle of the night my grandparents and their 7 year old son (my dad) cut through a barbed wire fence and snuck into the American sector and freedom. Under today's laws they would certainly be considered illegal immigrants.My mothers family arrived, like so many Jews, at the start of the 20th Century via Ellis Island. But in order to get on a boat to NYC they had to break many laws, including forged papers, to travel all the way from Russia. So I consider my ancestors on both sides to be illegal, and I'm very proud and grateful to them.

You compare them to the immigrants of an earlier generation, but of course there are tremendous differences besides the illegal issue. The Jews, Polish, Italians, Irish, etc., yes they huddled in the big cities and caused crime and spoke their own languages, all that is true, but what is also true is that they all aspired to be assimilated. They encouraged their children to speak English, to achieve within the structure of our capitalistic society. Do the illegal aliens from south of the border encourage their kids to speak English? No, they demand bilingual education. They seek to be separate from our culture, they dont contribute to the old idea of the melting pot, and they retain an antagonism towards American values.

You continue to make completely false and absurd arguments, based on nothing but your own ignorance and stereotypes. Later on today, when I have a little more time, I'm going to demolish each and every one of your arguments, using facts and links to back me up, none of which you've provided.But again I don't see the point of you making these additional arguments anyhow- you've already argued that because they're illegal nothing else should matter.

I knew it. Its a typical liberal thing to label your opponents arguments as racist, which I knew was coming.

Or ignorant, or a teabagger, or a bigot, or an idiot...Arguing for intelligent conversation when you can't even get past petty name-calling is most definitely something worth laughing at.

Obama is sending them home with some financial aid to the governments. That's the right decision. I'm glad it's over. Now the process can begin.

I haven't called anyone a racist, or a teabagger, or a bigot, or an idiot. All of those terms are insulting.I have called Sarnoff ignorant, which is not insulting. In fact, it's rather a compliment. As I'm about to demonstrate, he's gotten his facts wrong on just about everything he's written in this thread. Which means either he is ignorant, or a deliberate liar. I prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt.

You can be such an ###

I've been around long enough to see his immigration song and dance more than once. These subjects tend to repeat themselves.Tim posts links, declares victory and insults people. People post alternate links and Tim declares them biased and insults people. The thread fades into partisan bickering.

The short version is that there are studies on both sides that will show different things. It all comes down to how you define illegal immigration, what assumptions you use (or the study uses), and what the study focuses on. I have yet to see a comprehensive study by an unbiased source either way.

Good luck to anyone willing to bash their head against the the wall... again. Beware the opinion pieces masquerading as "facts".

 

[timschochet]

They’re swarming our prisons. We don’t have enough space for them, and the cost is horrendous.

This is actually a true statement by Sarnoff, though not for the reason he thinks:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/23/undocumented-immigrants-prison_n_3792187.html

Just as the federal government has pulled back the throttle on the drug war, it is embarking on an unprecedented campaign to criminally prosecute undocumented immigrants crossing the border. The result: A new wave of non-violent offenders are flooding the nation's prisons.

"This is the crime du jour," said Judith Greene, director of the nonprofit Justice Strategies, which has focused on the private prison industry's growing reliance on incarcerating undocumented immigrants. "It's the drug war all over again. It's what's driving the market in federal prisons."

Immigration offenders represent one of the fastest-growing segments of the federal prison population, providing a lucrative market for private prison corporations that largely control these inmates in the system. Over the last decade, revenue from the federal prison system has more than tripled for the GEO Group and nearly doubled for Corrections Corp. of America -- the two companies that dominate the private prison industry.

 

[timschochet]

I'm out of time so I'm going to stop now. I may continue later. Sarnoff is also wrong about the costs to our hospitals to our education, to the overall concept of whether or not illegals are a net benefit or detriment (they are a net benefit). He is wrong about bilingual education and what it means (though Mohawk already explained that very well.) He is wrong about the culture, and also wrong to confuse illegal immigrants with the population of Huntington Park, most of which happens to be legal. And he is quite wrong about my motivations, though that's another matter.

 

[timschochet]

One final point- President Obama's decision to send these children away is, IMO, a shameful day for this country. And it's more proof to me that Democrats in general are just as guilty, if not guiltier, than Republicans on this issue. At least conservatives who disagree with me, like Sarnoff and others, are willing to stand by their convictions. These Democrats see this issue cynically as a means to get Latinos on their side; otherwise, I wonder if they even care.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

The idea that an immigrant group insists on NOT being assimilated because they wish to learn in both English and their home language is absurd. Of course they want to assimilate. Why do you think they want bilingual education? So they can learn faster how to assimilate. You cannot expect a person to assimilate overnight. It takes awhile. Learning in Spanish (in this case) only helps to learn in English. They ask for bilingual education, not uni-lingual! My mother's generation went to schools in Baltimore that used bilingual education. It helped her learn English and to assimilate. These weak arguments are based on fear. They (the immigrants) want something I have. Get over yourselves. All of you, or your ancestors, are immigrants! The Statue of Liberty says it best. Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses, yearning to be free. What exactly about that do you NOT understand? It's like phony Christians hating on other groups when their religion insists on loving everyone, whores, sinners, etc. as their founder insisted. You guys cannot live up to the ideals you all espouse as what makes America great. You are phony Americans.

Great post, Mohawk. It makes me feel better to know that not everyone here shares Sarnoff's ignorance on this subject. I was starting to get a little worried.

Not really. There are lots who don't want to assimilate. There are lots who only want to assimilate to the extent they need to get by. I gave an example earlier. You live here 30 years and don't speak English? In no way, shape or form does that demonstrate a want to assimilate.

This is truly the illegal immigrants better life in America. Pay no tax, send money to Mexico, have babies in the US that are automatic citizens which qualify for every freebie the Government has to offer on the tax payer dime yet the illegal parents never paid a penny into the system and services they abuse, free healthcare by using the emergency room as their regular doctors office, and a Government that is allowing all this to win the Hispanic vote. And people wonder why Americans despise illegals.

 

[jonessed]

if they are already illegal, then theyre bound not to respect our laws, so theyre much more likely to become criminal.

Well actually no:http://reason.com/archives/2013/02/07/5-reasons-for-amnesty-for-illegal-immigr/2

While illegal immigration is a crime, the act of crossing the border without authorization is a mere misdemeanor. Immigrants, in fact, may help drive crime down. The vast majority want to stay in the country in order to work and so naturally steer clear of breaking any laws. And as The Future of Freedom Foundation's Sheldon Richman pointed out a few years ago, all manners of violent crimes dropped dramatically since 1986, the last time an amnesty was granted to illegal immigrants. Yes, 14 percent of federal inmates are illegal immigrants, but they are largely there for immigration violations. On the state level, Richman notes, less than 5 percent of inmates are illegal immigrants. Not exactly the makings of a crime wave.

This should really make obvious sense to anyone who thinks about this. Since most illegal immigrants are here for work (averaging 12-14 hours a day) and don't want to be deported, they are careful NOT to break laws, probably much more so than common citizens- they don't want to be noticed.

Please link the study showing that the average illegal immigrant works 12-14 hours/day. Not some immigrants, not some times, but the average of all. That's what you stated.Also need to see the percentage of federal illegal immigrants in prison/jail for immigration reasons vs. other other reasons.

Terms like "largely" or "most" need to be backed up with actual numbers.

If you want to insult, belittle, and degrade people that disagree with you there needs to be definitive numbers. Opinions from The Future of Freedom Foundation or The Peace, Love , and Immigration Society, or The Huffington Post won't do it. Link to the raw numbers at the source and make your argument off of those. What you have here is just incomplete opinion pieces and link spam.

 

[BeaverCleaver]

if they are already illegal, then theyre bound not to respect our laws, so theyre much more likely to become criminal.

Well actually no:http://reason.com/archives/2013/02/07/5-reasons-for-amnesty-for-illegal-immigr/2

While illegal immigration is a crime, the act of crossing the border without authorization is a mere misdemeanor. Immigrants, in fact, may help drive crime down. The vast majority want to stay in the country in order to work and so naturally steer clear of breaking any laws. And as The Future of Freedom Foundation's Sheldon Richman pointed out a few years ago, all manners of violent crimes dropped dramatically since 1986, the last time an amnesty was granted to illegal immigrants. Yes, 14 percent of federal inmates are illegal immigrants, but they are largely there for immigration violations. On the state level, Richman notes, less than 5 percent of inmates are illegal immigrants. Not exactly the makings of a crime wave.

This should really make obvious sense to anyone who thinks about this. Since most illegal immigrants are here for work (averaging 12-14 hours a day) and don't want to be deported, they are careful NOT to break laws, probably much more so than common citizens- they don't want to be noticed.

Please link the study showing that the average illegal immigrant works 12-14 hours/day. Not some immigrants, not some times, but the average of all. That's what you stated.

Also need to see the percentage of federal illegal immigrants in prison/jail for immigration reasons vs. other other reasons.

Terms like "largely" or "most" need to be backed up with actual numbers.

If you want to insult people that disagree with you there needs to be definitive numbers. Opinions from The Future of Freedom Foundation or The Peace, Love , and Immigration Society, or The Huffington Post won't do it. When you belittle offend, and degrade people that crap doesn't fly.

And he cries like a school girl when people do that to him.

 

[Jayrod]

If I were to tell you that a high percentage of crimes committed in southern California are by illegal immigrants, which they are, you might not see a connection, but I do:

The remainder of Sarnoff's arguments are so bogus that I have to respond to them one by one, starting with this one:In point of fact, study after study demonstrates that illegal immigrants, by percentage, actually commit LESS CRIME than those who are born in this country. Here:

http://www.npr.org/2013/03/08/173642807/does-crime-drop-when-immigrants-move-in

And here:

http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2012/06/public-study-illegal-immigrants-commit-less-crime-than-americans/

And here:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/disturbed/201302/immigrants-have-lower-crime-rate

From the last one:

Your average immigrant is not a threat to you. Whether legal or illegal, the fact is that immigrants commit fewer violent crimes than those born in the U.S. This issue has been lied about and fought over for years, but the reality is that immigrants are less likely to commit violent crime.

Oops! Sorry Sarnoff. But it gets worse for you...

I read all three articles. I'm on my phone so can't cut and paste, but the first article admits it is inconclusive (and doesn't really address illegal immigrants). The second article seems very contradictive and is very subjectively written and the third is some researcher trying to defend his work (which all seemed very subjective). But to hear Tim talk, these are some irrefutable facts.

Thing aren't true just because you want them to be.

 

[Jayrod]

I'm out of time so I'm going to stop now. I may continue later. Sarnoff is also wrong about the costs to our hospitals to our education, to the overall concept of whether or not illegals are a net benefit or detriment (they are a net benefit). He is wrong about bilingual education and what it means (though Mohawk already explained that very well.) He is wrong about the culture, and also wrong to confuse illegal immigrants with the population of Huntington Park, most of which happens to be legal. And he is quite wrong about my motivations, though that's another matter.

I'm beyond wanting to just punch you in the neck.

 

[timschochet]

Can't respond now. Will try later.

 

[humpback]

Can't wait for the "please see my sig" disclaimer.

 

[timschochet]

I'm out of time so I'm going to stop now. I may continue later. Sarnoff is also wrong about the costs to our hospitals to our education, to the overall concept of whether or not illegals are a net benefit or detriment (they are a net benefit). He is wrong about bilingual education and what it means (though Mohawk already explained that very well.) He is wrong about the culture, and also wrong to confuse illegal immigrants with the population of Huntington Park, most of which happens to be legal. And he is quite wrong about my motivations, though that's another matter.

I'm beyond wanting to just punch you in the neck.

Should I fear for my life?

 

[Stinger Ray]

I'm out of time so I'm going to stop now. I may continue later. Sarnoff is also wrong about the costs to our hospitals to our education, to the overall concept of whether or not illegals are a net benefit or detriment (they are a net benefit). He is wrong about bilingual education and what it means (though Mohawk already explained that very well.) He is wrong about the culture, and also wrong to confuse illegal immigrants with the population of Huntington Park, most of which happens to be legal. And he is quite wrong about my motivations, though that's another matter.

I'm beyond wanting to just punch you in the neck.

Should I fear for my life?

You need to get a life. Your obsession with posting here is just whacked.

 

[timschochet]

if they are already illegal, then theyre bound not to respect our laws, so theyre much more likely to become criminal.

Well actually no:http://reason.com/archives/2013/02/07/5-reasons-for-amnesty-for-illegal-immigr/2

While illegal immigration is a crime, the act of crossing the border without authorization is a mere misdemeanor. Immigrants, in fact, may help drive crime down. The vast majority want to stay in the country in order to work and so naturally steer clear of breaking any laws. And as The Future of Freedom Foundation's Sheldon Richman pointed out a few years ago, all manners of violent crimes dropped dramatically since 1986, the last time an amnesty was granted to illegal immigrants. Yes, 14 percent of federal inmates are illegal immigrants, but they are largely there for immigration violations. On the state level, Richman notes, less than 5 percent of inmates are illegal immigrants. Not exactly the makings of a crime wave.

This should really make obvious sense to anyone who thinks about this. Since most illegal immigrants are here for work (averaging 12-14 hours a day) and don't want to be deported, they are careful NOT to break laws, probably much more so than common citizens- they don't want to be noticed.

Please link the study showing that the average illegal immigrant works 12-14 hours/day. Not some immigrants, not some times, but the average of all. That's what you stated.Also need to see the percentage of federal illegal immigrants in prison/jail for immigration reasons vs. other other reasons.

Terms like "largely" or "most" need to be backed up with actual numbers.

If you want to insult, belittle, and degrade people that disagree with you there needs to be definitive numbers. Opinions from The Future of Freedom Foundation or The Peace, Love , and Immigration Society, or The Huffington Post won't do it. Link to the raw numbers at the source and make your argument off of those. What you have here is just incomplete opinion pieces and link spam.

I'd have to look up all this stuff and I'm not going to bother. I haven't insulted or belittled anyone here (though I've certainly been subjected to it.) The information about the working hours of Hispanics comes from the University of Arizona study which I linked 3 years ago but I'm not going to find it now. There are also studies regarding this from the Pew Hispanic Center and from Standard and Poors, as well as the Reason Institute and the Cato Institute. I'm not really sure which of these would satisfy you- probably none of them would. You're going to believe what you want to believe.

BUT- though I disagree with you often, jonessed (and it certainly appears that we disagree on this issue) I have respect for you. You're a very smart guy. Surely Sarnoff's blanket comments, laced with stereotypes, are as offensive to you as they are to me? Whatever side of the issue one lands on, I would hope you would recognize sheer unthinking ugliness when one sees it.

 

[Stinger Ray]

if they are already illegal, then theyre bound not to respect our laws, so theyre much more likely to become criminal.

Well actually no:http://reason.com/archives/2013/02/07/5-reasons-for-amnesty-for-illegal-immigr/2

While illegal immigration is a crime, the act of crossing the border without authorization is a mere misdemeanor. Immigrants, in fact, may help drive crime down. The vast majority want to stay in the country in order to work and so naturally steer clear of breaking any laws. And as The Future of Freedom Foundation's Sheldon Richman pointed out a few years ago, all manners of violent crimes dropped dramatically since 1986, the last time an amnesty was granted to illegal immigrants. Yes, 14 percent of federal inmates are illegal immigrants, but they are largely there for immigration violations. On the state level, Richman notes, less than 5 percent of inmates are illegal immigrants. Not exactly the makings of a crime wave.

This should really make obvious sense to anyone who thinks about this. Since most illegal immigrants are here for work (averaging 12-14 hours a day) and don't want to be deported, they are careful NOT to break laws, probably much more so than common citizens- they don't want to be noticed.

Please link the study showing that the average illegal immigrant works 12-14 hours/day. Not some immigrants, not some times, but the average of all. That's what you stated.Also need to see the percentage of federal illegal immigrants in prison/jail for immigration reasons vs. other other reasons.

Terms like "largely" or "most" need to be backed up with actual numbers.

If you want to insult, belittle, and degrade people that disagree with you there needs to be definitive numbers. Opinions from The Future of Freedom Foundation or The Peace, Love , and Immigration Society, or The Huffington Post won't do it. Link to the raw numbers at the source and make your argument off of those. What you have here is just incomplete opinion pieces and link spam.

I'd have to look up all this stuff and I'm not going to bother. I haven't insulted or belittled anyone here (though I've certainly been subjected to it.)

Your sense of reality is really warped.

 

[jonessed]

if they are already illegal, then theyre bound not to respect our laws, so theyre much more likely to become criminal.

Well actually no:http://reason.com/archives/2013/02/07/5-reasons-for-amnesty-for-illegal-immigr/2

While illegal immigration is a crime, the act of crossing the border without authorization is a mere misdemeanor. Immigrants, in fact, may help drive crime down. The vast majority want to stay in the country in order to work and so naturally steer clear of breaking any laws. And as The Future of Freedom Foundation's Sheldon Richman pointed out a few years ago, all manners of violent crimes dropped dramatically since 1986, the last time an amnesty was granted to illegal immigrants. Yes, 14 percent of federal inmates are illegal immigrants, but they are largely there for immigration violations. On the state level, Richman notes, less than 5 percent of inmates are illegal immigrants. Not exactly the makings of a crime wave.

This should really make obvious sense to anyone who thinks about this. Since most illegal immigrants are here for work (averaging 12-14 hours a day) and don't want to be deported, they are careful NOT to break laws, probably much more so than common citizens- they don't want to be noticed.

Please link the study showing that the average illegal immigrant works 12-14 hours/day. Not some immigrants, not some times, but the average of all. That's what you stated.Also need to see the percentage of federal illegal immigrants in prison/jail for immigration reasons vs. other other reasons.

Terms like "largely" or "most" need to be backed up with actual numbers.

If you want to insult, belittle, and degrade people that disagree with you there needs to be definitive numbers. Opinions from The Future of Freedom Foundation or The Peace, Love , and Immigration Society, or The Huffington Post won't do it. Link to the raw numbers at the source and make your argument off of those. What you have here is just incomplete opinion pieces and link spam.

I'd have to look up all this stuff and I'm not going to bother. I haven't insulted or belittled anyone here (though I've certainly been subjected to it.) The information about the working hours of Hispanics comes from the University of Arizona study which I linked 3 years ago but I'm not going to find it now. There are also studies regarding this from the Pew Hispanic Center and from Standard and Poors, as well as the Reason Institute and the Cato Institute. I'm not really sure which of these would satisfy you- probably none of them would. You're going to believe what you want to believe.BUT- though I disagree with you often, jonessed (and it certainly appears that we disagree on this issue) I have respect for you. You're a very smart guy. Surely Sarnoff's blanket comments, laced with stereotypes, are as offensive to you as they are to me? Whatever side of the issue one lands on, I would hope you would recognize sheer unthinking ugliness when one sees it.

Calling people ignorant is insulting and belittling. There is no way to backtrack that.

When you claim that border security in the south, but not the west is racist you make a complete mockery of the entire debate.

I'm of the opinion that this is political because it's complicated and there is no definitive conclusion one way or the other. I'm certainly not going to call you ignorant on the issue. You are certainly informed, but that doesn't make you right.

Most people here at least try to discuss issues. The majority of voters couldn't hit their ### with both hands. We do ourselves a disservice when we claim morale high ground or superiority over issues this complex. At least everybody here isn't debating thenselves in a vacuum .

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

The idea that an immigrant group insists on NOT being assimilated because they wish to learn in both English and their home language is absurd. Of course they want to assimilate. Why do you think they want bilingual education? So they can learn faster how to assimilate. You cannot expect a person to assimilate overnight. It takes awhile. Learning in Spanish (in this case) only helps to learn in English. They ask for bilingual education, not uni-lingual! My mother's generation went to schools in Baltimore that used bilingual education. It helped her learn English and to assimilate. These weak arguments are based on fear. They (the immigrants) want something I have. Get over yourselves. All of you, or your ancestors, are immigrants! The Statue of Liberty says it best. Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses, yearning to be free. What exactly about that do you NOT understand? It's like phony Christians hating on other groups when their religion insists on loving everyone, whores, sinners, etc. as their founder insisted. You guys cannot live up to the ideals you all espouse as what makes America great. You are phony Americans.

I love Statue of Liberty arguments. Not as much as I love Constitutional ones, but I love them.

When was the Statue gifted to American, and for what stated purpose?

When was it erected on its pedestal, and how was the pedestal paid for?

Where the immigrants who caught sight of the statue primarily legal, or illegal?.

At the inception of the great waves of immigration that came past the Statue, and through most of it was there an income tax, and were there safety nets paid for by the federal government?

The neat little bit of poetry on the Statue, is that adopted national policy?

 

[timschochet]

if they are already illegal, then theyre bound not to respect our laws, so theyre much more likely to become criminal.

Well actually no:http://reason.com/archives/2013/02/07/5-reasons-for-amnesty-for-illegal-immigr/2

While illegal immigration is a crime, the act of crossing the border without authorization is a mere misdemeanor. Immigrants, in fact, may help drive crime down. The vast majority want to stay in the country in order to work and so naturally steer clear of breaking any laws. And as The Future of Freedom Foundation's Sheldon Richman pointed out a few years ago, all manners of violent crimes dropped dramatically since 1986, the last time an amnesty was granted to illegal immigrants. Yes, 14 percent of federal inmates are illegal immigrants, but they are largely there for immigration violations. On the state level, Richman notes, less than 5 percent of inmates are illegal immigrants. Not exactly the makings of a crime wave.

This should really make obvious sense to anyone who thinks about this. Since most illegal immigrants are here for work (averaging 12-14 hours a day) and don't want to be deported, they are careful NOT to break laws, probably much more so than common citizens- they don't want to be noticed.

Please link the study showing that the average illegal immigrant works 12-14 hours/day. Not some immigrants, not some times, but the average of all. That's what you stated.Also need to see the percentage of federal illegal immigrants in prison/jail for immigration reasons vs. other other reasons.

Terms like "largely" or "most" need to be backed up with actual numbers.

If you want to insult, belittle, and degrade people that disagree with you there needs to be definitive numbers. Opinions from The Future of Freedom Foundation or The Peace, Love , and Immigration Society, or The Huffington Post won't do it. Link to the raw numbers at the source and make your argument off of those. What you have here is just incomplete opinion pieces and link spam.

I'd have to look up all this stuff and I'm not going to bother. I haven't insulted or belittled anyone here (though I've certainly been subjected to it.) The information about the working hours of Hispanics comes from the University of Arizona study which I linked 3 years ago but I'm not going to find it now. There are also studies regarding this from the Pew Hispanic Center and from Standard and Poors, as well as the Reason Institute and the Cato Institute. I'm not really sure which of these would satisfy you- probably none of them would. You're going to believe what you want to believe.BUT- though I disagree with you often, jonessed (and it certainly appears that we disagree on this issue) I have respect for you. You're a very smart guy. Surely Sarnoff's blanket comments, laced with stereotypes, are as offensive to you as they are to me? Whatever side of the issue one lands on, I would hope you would recognize sheer unthinking ugliness when one sees it.

Calling people ignorant is insulting and belittling. There is no way to backtrack that.

When you claim that border security in the south, but not the west is racist you make a complete mockery of the entire debate.

I'm of the opinion that this is political because it's complicated and there is no definitive conclusion one way or the other. I'm certainly not going to call you ignorant on the issue. You are certainly informed, but that doesn't make you right.

Most people here at least try to discuss issues. The majority of voters couldn't hit their ### with both hands. We do ourselves a disservice when we claim morale high ground or superiority over issues this complex. At least everybody here isn't debating thenselves in a vacuum .

1. I didn't backtrack. I just simply disagree with you that it's insulting, particularly with regard to Sarnoff.

2. You mean the north. And yes I believe there are racial overtones. Again, I refer to Sarnoff's comment about Huntington Park, "You can drive for miles and you won't see English"- is he talking about illegal immigrants, or Hispanics? I do not mean to make a mockery of the debate by acknowledging that there is a racial element that exists. To pretend it doesn't exist is a mockery, IMO, of reality.

3. Agreed and thank you.

4. I claim moral high ground with regard to Sarnoff, not with regard to you or anyone else who wants to discuss and debate this issue intelligently. (Not even Jayrod, who apparently wants to cause all sorts of pain to me!)

 

[timschochet]

The idea that an immigrant group insists on NOT being assimilated because they wish to learn in both English and their home language is absurd. Of course they want to assimilate. Why do you think they want bilingual education? So they can learn faster how to assimilate. You cannot expect a person to assimilate overnight. It takes awhile. Learning in Spanish (in this case) only helps to learn in English. They ask for bilingual education, not uni-lingual! My mother's generation went to schools in Baltimore that used bilingual education. It helped her learn English and to assimilate. These weak arguments are based on fear. They (the immigrants) want something I have. Get over yourselves. All of you, or your ancestors, are immigrants! The Statue of Liberty says it best. Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses, yearning to be free. What exactly about that do you NOT understand? It's like phony Christians hating on other groups when their religion insists on loving everyone, whores, sinners, etc. as their founder insisted. You guys cannot live up to the ideals you all espouse as what makes America great. You are phony Americans.

I love Statue of Liberty arguments. Not as much as I love Constitutional ones, but I love them.

When was the Statue gifted to American, and for what stated purpose?

When was it erected on its pedestal, and how was the pedestal paid for?

Where the immigrants who caught sight of the statue primarily legal, or illegal?.

At the inception of the great waves of immigration that came past the Statue, and through most of it was there an income tax, and were there safety nets paid for by the federal government?

The neat little bit of poetry on the Statue, is that adopted national policy?

Excellent questions:

1. 1876-82, as a monument to French and American freedom.

2. 1886. The Pedestal was paid for by $1 contributions to Joseph Pulitzer's New York World.

3. This depends on your definition. Many of the Ellis Island people, including my great-grandparents, had to break several laws to get on those ships. In American terms, however, they were legal immigrants, because we had an open door immigration policy back then (excluding Asians.)

4. There was an income tax since 1894, ratified to the Constitution in 1913. There was very little safety net. It was, in fact, the plight of many of the immigrants, and the depiction of them by muckrakers such as Jacob Riis, Lincoln Steffens, and Upton Sinclair among others that helped eventually lead to the safety net.

5. It is not national policy, sadly. But it has come to represent, both for us and around the world, the American ideal. It's what we're supposed to be about. I truly believe that open immigration is an essential element of the greatness of this country. Without it, we become no better or worse than most of western Europe- which means, still better than the rest of the world (in that we're essentially a free society) but not exceptional. When we speak of American exceptionalism (which I for one truly believe in) immigration is key.

 

[Stinger Ray]

Tim has 110 posts in this thread and the next closest has 15.

 

[Mohawk]

I wonder how many of our ancestors came here illegally. I know at least one branch of my family were French Hugenots (sp?) who got the hell out of France before they could be rounded up and dispatched. They hid in the swamps of Southern Maryland before founding many of the small towns there. My uncle ran all of the details down several years ago, such as they are, but it appears that that we were just "assumed" to be legal. Maybe the fact that they were of (mostly - if they did nothing else, Rome ####ed everywhere they went)) Northern European descent had something to do with it

My grandmother on my fathers side wound up at the end of World War II, having survived the Holocaust, in the Russian sector of Vienna. In the middle of the night my grandparents and their 7 year old son (my dad) cut through a barbed wire fence and snuck into the American sector and freedom. Under today's laws they would certainly be considered illegal immigrants.My mothers family arrived, like so many Jews, at the start of the 20th Century via Ellis Island. But in order to get on a boat to NYC they had to break many laws, including forged papers, to travel all the way from Russia. So I consider my ancestors on both sides to be illegal, and I'm very proud and grateful to them.

You compare them to the immigrants of an earlier generation, but of course there are tremendous differences besides the illegal issue. The Jews, Polish, Italians, Irish, etc., yes they huddled in the big cities and caused crime and spoke their own languages, all that is true, but what is also true is that they all aspired to be assimilated. They encouraged their children to speak English, to achieve within the structure of our capitalistic society. Do the illegal aliens from south of the border encourage their kids to speak English? No, they demand bilingual education. They seek to be separate from our culture, they dont contribute to the old idea of the melting pot, and they retain an antagonism towards American values.

You continue to make completely false and absurd arguments, based on nothing but your own ignorance and stereotypes. Later on today, when I have a little more time, I'm going to demolish each and every one of your arguments, using facts and links to back me up, none of which you've provided.But again I don't see the point of you making these additional arguments anyhow- you've already argued that because they're illegal nothing else should matter.

I knew it. It’s a typical liberal thing to label your opponents’ arguments as racist, which I knew was coming.

Gonna call me a "liberal? I'm no Tim-defender, nor am I a lefty in the traditional sense but I like arguing hopeless causes. Bring something that approximates a level of intelligence and I'll be your huckleberry.

They rent apartments and twenty of them will live in one room. They dominate certain parts of Los Angeles like Huntington Park, where you can drive for miles and not see a sign in English. I could go on ad nauseam.

You already do.

 

[D_House]

If I were to tell you that a high percentage of crimes committed in southern California are by illegal immigrants, which they are, you might not see a connection, but I do:

The remainder of Sarnoff's arguments are so bogus that I have to respond to them one by one, starting with this one:In point of fact, study after study demonstrates that illegal immigrants, by percentage, actually commit LESS CRIME than those who are born in this country. Here:

http://www.npr.org/2013/03/08/173642807/does-crime-drop-when-immigrants-move-in

And here:

http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2012/06/public-study-illegal-immigrants-commit-less-crime-than-americans/

And here:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/disturbed/201302/immigrants-have-lower-crime-rate

From the last one:

Your average immigrant is not a threat to you. Whether legal or illegal, the fact is that immigrants commit fewer violent crimes than those born in the U.S. This issue has been lied about and fought over for years, but the reality is that immigrants are less likely to commit violent crime.

Oops! Sorry Sarnoff. But it gets worse for you...

You know who would probably agree with you? Gary Johnson.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Texas Takes Border Security Into Own Hands Because of Federal Inaction

Read more at http://guardianlv.com/2014/06/texas-takes-border-security-into-own-hands-because-of-federal-inaction/#8I6TEdq4RkbcAyb4.99

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

On crime statistics and severity of crime--

A percentage of illegal immigrant crime is not reported in conviction statistics simply because some illegals are willing to jump back over the border to avoid prosecution, others because they accept deportation in lieu of demanding their cases are adjudicated. Others have not come to prosecution because they are wanted on warrants in this country and being shadowy figures on the edges of the economy find avoiding prosecution and setting up new identities to be very cost effective for them. The crime statistics do not reflect the crimes committed.

I will concede, however, that many illegal immigrants have substantial incentive to not commit crime. I will also acknowledge, however, that a certain small percentage come here specifically to forward incredibly violent criminal enterprises. Many, though I am not claiming any specific percentage of the illegals as a whole, are involved in violent drug enterprises, gun trafficking, kidnapping, and extortion and trafficking of their own people. Many of these crimes, particularly the trafficking, go unreported for obvious reasons. I would also note that the Jamaicans, Columbians,and Mexicans comprise some of our most violent street and prison gangs.

(Oh, as to the articles previously cited they gloss over the massive demographic trend represented by an aging baby boom cohort. Crime rates dropped not due to the relatively small number of immigrants stabilizing neighborhoods, but from the tidal wave of aging boomers past their violent crime committing years.)

On taxes and economic benefit--

I would never state that illegals pay no taxes, just not the same taxes as legal immigrants or Americans. Certainly they strain our schools, hospitals, courts and roads and they occupy a number of our social welfare programs to a great degree. What I have not seen are any figures on the lost educational productivity of American children who are in classes strained to the gills. What might our children have learned or produced with these resources focused on them.

Further, and this is important, whatever benefits this fresh blood, these vibrant cultures, these new ideas might bring our inbred and failing vibrancy would be just as equally available from legal immigrants and the controlled flow would come with less social costs. It is not as if the only choice here is illegal immigration or none at all.

I believe our country does obtain great benefit from immigration, just not illegal immigration. Some present this false dichotomy. I choose not to do so.

 

[RCon]

I might be coming from different experiences then you have had with illegals. I've had two friends that have had their family members murdered by individuals who were in this country illegally.

I am very sorry for your friends. What you have to realize is that statistics show that less illegals, by percentage, commit crimes than do citizens. (See my above post.) That probably doesn't help you emotionally, but it's true nonetheless.

Your links proved nothing of the sort, sorry to say. Two of them made undocumented assertions, but there was no proof offered.

 

[quickhands]

I'm out of time so I'm going to stop now. I may continue later. Sarnoff is also wrong about the costs to our hospitals to our education, to the overall concept of whether or not illegals are a net benefit or detriment (they are a net benefit). He is wrong about bilingual education and what it means (though Mohawk already explained that very well.) He is wrong about the culture, and also wrong to confuse illegal immigrants with the population of Huntington Park, most of which happens to be legal. And he is quite wrong about my motivations, though that's another matter.

I'm beyond wanting to just punch you in the neck.

Should I fear for my life?

No because he's never been in a fight. Likely his punch wont be lethal.

 

[Zegras11]

Texas Takes Border Security Into Own Hands Because of Federal Inaction

Read more at http://guardianlv.com/2014/06/texas-takes-border-security-into-own-hands-because-of-federal-inaction/#8I6TEdq4RkbcAyb4.99

The surge includes air support and boots on the ground and comes on the heels of the tremendous influx of not only illegal immigrants from Mexico, but also those who have come from El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras hoping to cash in on the Obama administration’s reputation for extreme leniency. These illegal immigrants are referred to by border patrol as “Other than Mexican” (OTM). Currently, there are three U.S. military bases overflowing with children who have been trafficked to the U.S. by families hoping to follow and this has created a humanitarian crisis with no practical solution in sight.

Read more at http://guardianlv.com/2014/06/texas-takes-border-security-into-own-hands-because-of-federal-inaction/#1WUbwVFlLAmIwJZV.99

Send them to Tim's house.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Texas Takes Border Security Into Own Hands Because of Federal Inaction

Read more at http://guardianlv.com/2014/06/texas-takes-border-security-into-own-hands-because-of-federal-inaction/#8I6TEdq4RkbcAyb4.99

The surge includes air support and boots on the ground and comes on the heels of the tremendous influx of not only illegal immigrants from Mexico, but also those who have come from El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras hoping to cash in on the Obama administration’s reputation for extreme leniency. These illegal immigrants are referred to by border patrol as “Other than Mexican” (OTM). Currently, there are three U.S. military bases overflowing with children who have been trafficked to the U.S. by families hoping to follow and this has created a humanitarian crisis with no practical solution in sight.

Read more at http://guardianlv.com/2014/06/texas-takes-border-security-into-own-hands-because-of-federal-inaction/#1WUbwVFlLAmIwJZV.99

Send them to Tim's house.

agreed ...anyone can be a spokes person for the rights of illegal immigration...until its standing on your doorstep a hundred people deep

 

[jamny]

I haven't called you a racist, Sarnoff. Many if not most of your arguments are based on false stereotypes, but since they tend to be commonly held by those who agree with your position, I prefer to give you the benefit of the doubt and think that they are simply based on ignorance rather than deliberate racial malice. But later when I have time to give each of your points the attention they deserve, I'll let the facts speak for themselves and everyone can draw their own conclusions.

To you as a liberal everything is subjective. I would not want to live in a society where everything is subjective. The sort of moral relativism that you propose led in the 20th Century to some of the worst regimes in history. I have a strong sense of what is right and wrong, and in order to live in a civilized society, we must have law and orde.

It's like someone stabbed you just before you were able to finish.

eta: It works better if you read your post with an English accent.

 

[Sarnoff]

If I were to tell you that a high percentage of crimes committed in southern California are by illegal immigrants, which they are, you might not see a connection, but I do:

The remainder of Sarnoff's arguments are so bogus that I have to respond to them one by one, starting with this one:In point of fact, study after study demonstrates that illegal immigrants, by percentage, actually commit LESS CRIME than those who are born in this country. Here:

http://www.npr.org/2013/03/08/173642807/does-crime-drop-when-immigrants-move-in

And here:

http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2012/06/public-study-illegal-immigrants-commit-less-crime-than-americans/

And here:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/disturbed/201302/immigrants-have-lower-crime-rate

From the last one:

Your average immigrant is not a threat to you. Whether legal or illegal, the fact is that immigrants commit fewer violent crimes than those born in the U.S. This issue has been lied about and fought over for years, but the reality is that immigrants are less likely to commit violent crime.

Oops! Sorry Sarnoff. But it gets worse for you...

I read all three articles. I'm on my phone so can't cut and paste, but the first article admits it is inconclusive (and doesn't really address illegal immigrants). The second article seems very contradictive and is very subjectively written and the third is some researcher trying to defend his work (which all seemed very subjective).But to hear Tim talk, these are some irrefutable facts.

Thing aren't true just because you want them to be.

Poor Tim.

One way or another, we need to get these people to leave, not stay. Tim, of course, completely glosses over the truth of the high cost of illegal aliens to our schools, hospitals, and prisons. He doesn’t really want to discuss these issues, because they don’t fit in with his romantic ideal of hard workers who heroically cross the border in pursuit of the American dream. But our resources are at their breaking point, and I hold that illegals present a much higher cost to us than any benefit they represent, even if you ignore the fact of their illegality, which I can’t.

It's the very presence of the illegals that spread these concerns. If we found a way to stop them from coming and to get the ones already here to leave, we wouldn’t be saddled with this problem. Nor would we be saddled with their presence either in our schools or as roving gang members.

 

[jamny]

If I were to tell you that a high percentage of crimes committed in southern California are by illegal immigrants, which they are, you might not see a connection, but I do:

The remainder of Sarnoff's arguments are so bogus that I have to respond to them one by one, starting with this one:In point of fact, study after study demonstrates that illegal immigrants, by percentage, actually commit LESS CRIME than those who are born in this country. Here:

http://www.npr.org/2013/03/08/173642807/does-crime-drop-when-immigrants-move-in

And here:

http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2012/06/public-study-illegal-immigrants-commit-less-crime-than-americans/

And here:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/disturbed/201302/immigrants-have-lower-crime-rate

From the last one:

Your average immigrant is not a threat to you. Whether legal or illegal, the fact is that immigrants commit fewer violent crimes than those born in the U.S. This issue has been lied about and fought over for years, but the reality is that immigrants are less likely to commit violent crime.

Oops! Sorry Sarnoff. But it gets worse for you...

I read all three articles. I'm on my phone so can't cut and paste, but the first article admits it is inconclusive (and doesn't really address illegal immigrants). The second article seems very contradictive and is very subjectively written and the third is some researcher trying to defend his work (which all seemed very subjective).But to hear Tim talk, these are some irrefutable facts.

Thing aren't true just because you want them to be.

Poor Tim.

One way or another, we need to get these people to leave, not stay. Tim, of course, completely glosses over the truth of the high cost of illegal aliens to our schools, hospitals, and prisons. He doesn’t really want to discuss these issues, because they don’t fit in with his romantic ideal of hard workers who heroically cross the border in pursuit of the American dream. But our resources are at their breaking point, and I hold that illegals present a much higher cost to us than any benefit they represent, even if you ignore the fact of their illegality, which I can’t.

It's the very presence of the illegals that spread these concerns. If we found a way to stop them from coming and to get the ones already here to leave, we wouldn’t be saddled with this problem. Nor would we be saddled with their presence either in our schools or as roving gang members.

Why would you bother arguing with someone who feels like "let them all in, consequences be damned!" You will never knock him off his high horse.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

If I were to tell you that a high percentage of crimes committed in southern California are by illegal immigrants, which they are, you might not see a connection, but I do:

The remainder of Sarnoff's arguments are so bogus that I have to respond to them one by one, starting with this one:In point of fact, study after study demonstrates that illegal immigrants, by percentage, actually commit LESS CRIME than those who are born in this country. Here:

http://www.npr.org/2013/03/08/173642807/does-crime-drop-when-immigrants-move-in

And here:

http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2012/06/public-study-illegal-immigrants-commit-less-crime-than-americans/

And here:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/disturbed/201302/immigrants-have-lower-crime-rate

From the last one:

Your average immigrant is not a threat to you. Whether legal or illegal, the fact is that immigrants commit fewer violent crimes than those born in the U.S. This issue has been lied about and fought over for years, but the reality is that immigrants are less likely to commit violent crime.

Oops! Sorry Sarnoff. But it gets worse for you...

I read all three articles. I'm on my phone so can't cut and paste, but the first article admits it is inconclusive (and doesn't really address illegal immigrants). The second article seems very contradictive and is very subjectively written and the third is some researcher trying to defend his work (which all seemed very subjective).But to hear Tim talk, these are some irrefutable facts.

Thing aren't true just because you want them to be.

Poor Tim.

One way or another, we need to get these people to leave, not stay. Tim, of course, completely glosses over the truth of the high cost of illegal aliens to our schools, hospitals, and prisons. He doesn’t really want to discuss these issues, because they don’t fit in with his romantic ideal of hard workers who heroically cross the border in pursuit of the American dream. But our resources are at their breaking point, and I hold that illegals present a much higher cost to us than any benefit they represent, even if you ignore the fact of their illegality, which I can’t.

It's the very presence of the illegals that spread these concerns. If we found a way to stop them from coming and to get the ones already here to leave, we wouldn’t be saddled with this problem. Nor would we be saddled with their presence either in our schools or as roving gang members.

Why would you bother arguing with someone who feels like "let them all in, consequences be damned!" You will never knock him off his high horse.

He`s not on a high horse ...he`s on a mechanical bull at best...bucking all over the place until he`s thrown off ,only to climb back on to fight the good fight

 

[timschochet]

If I were to tell you that a high percentage of crimes committed in southern California are by illegal immigrants, which they are, you might not see a connection, but I do:

The remainder of Sarnoff's arguments are so bogus that I have to respond to them one by one, starting with this one:In point of fact, study after study demonstrates that illegal immigrants, by percentage, actually commit LESS CRIME than those who are born in this country. Here:

http://www.npr.org/2013/03/08/173642807/does-crime-drop-when-immigrants-move-in

And here:

http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2012/06/public-study-illegal-immigrants-commit-less-crime-than-americans/

And here:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/disturbed/201302/immigrants-have-lower-crime-rate

From the last one:

Your average immigrant is not a threat to you. Whether legal or illegal, the fact is that immigrants commit fewer violent crimes than those born in the U.S. This issue has been lied about and fought over for years, but the reality is that immigrants are less likely to commit violent crime.

Oops! Sorry Sarnoff. But it gets worse for you...

I read all three articles. I'm on my phone so can't cut and paste, but the first article admits it is inconclusive (and doesn't really address illegal immigrants). The second article seems very contradictive and is very subjectively written and the third is some researcher trying to defend his work (which all seemed very subjective).But to hear Tim talk, these are some irrefutable facts.

Thing aren't true just because you want them to be.

Poor Tim.

One way or another, we need to get these people to leave, not stay. Tim, of course, completely glosses over the truth of the high cost of illegal aliens to our schools, hospitals, and prisons. He doesn’t really want to discuss these issues, because they don’t fit in with his romantic ideal of hard workers who heroically cross the border in pursuit of the American dream. But our resources are at their breaking point, and I hold that illegals present a much higher cost to us than any benefit they represent, even if you ignore the fact of their illegality, which I can’t.

It's the very presence of the illegals that spread these concerns. If we found a way to stop them from coming and to get the ones already here to leave, we wouldn’t be saddled with this problem. Nor would we be saddled with their presence either in our schools or as roving gang members.

Why would you bother arguing with someone who feels like "let them all in, consequences be damned!" You will never knock him off his high horse.

He`s not on a high horse ...he`s on a mechanical bull at best...bucking all over the place until he`s thrown off ,only to climb back on to fight the good fight

This is true.

But I don't believe in "consequences be damned!" My argument is that the consequences are more good than bad.

 

[timschochet]

Always enjoy arguing with you guys about this. You make me sharper in my convictions. And sometimes I learn stuff I didn't know. Good night!

 

[Sarnoff]

You’ve just spewed out about a mile of leftist propaganda.

 

[Jayrod]

I'm out of time so I'm going to stop now. I may continue later. Sarnoff is also wrong about the costs to our hospitals to our education, to the overall concept of whether or not illegals are a net benefit or detriment (they are a net benefit). He is wrong about bilingual education and what it means (though Mohawk already explained that very well.) He is wrong about the culture, and also wrong to confuse illegal immigrants with the population of Huntington Park, most of which happens to be legal. And he is quite wrong about my motivations, though that's another matter.

I'm beyond wanting to just punch you in the neck.

Should I fear for my life?

No because he's never been in a fight. Likely his punch wont be lethal.

That is one heck of a notebook you got there.

 

[timschochet]

You’ve just spewed out about a mile of leftist propaganda.

Ever heard of Reason magazine? How about the Cato Institute?

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Listen I have always, without a doubt, disagreed with Tim on this subject, but as a person who has been part of this site forever, I give him credit that Tim is consistent, He supports open borders because (IMO naively so) his whole foundation of his argument comes from 1910 and 1920 references where people came by the Statute of Liberty and felt that sense of pride of coming here. Unfortunately, that examples fails because everyone of them--CHECKED IN!!!

Sorry, we live now where 80% of the people coming here from the South don't feel that way today (sorry Tim). There is no American Dream, It is what can I get here that I can't get from where I was at. They don't want to assimilate. Yes, you can reference the taco truck vendor who has done so well that he has two more taco trucks, but I can show you 10 more that just want to take and worse yet, hurt this country. I really would encourage you to spend some time in your local courthouse and see the financial drain, just from a judicial sense, the illegals have on this country. I see people in the courthouse weekly actually screaming at employees because they have the nerve to not speak Spanish. The interpreter budget has gone up 100 fold in my district--yet there is no money for raises for the actual Judicial employees. This happens weekly Tim.

My wife is a special ed teacher. Her performance evals are all based on data, but she has kids of illegal families that the kids have special needs and don't speak fluent English. So my wife has to defend herself on performance evals because she is trying to help these kids because she gets zero involvement or support at home. And ultimately she is rated sort of proficient rather than proficient, despite trying hard to help these families, just because they don't care about this country..

Remember Tim, every time you start on one of your BS posts about how good illegals are for the US, just understand no one is denying them the right from coming here legally. Walk to the border office and fill out some forms

Oh gosh, I am sorry they have to file some paperwork and it takes time, but guess what, as a US citizen I have to file a crap load of paperwork yearly, from local tax returns to federal tax returns. to requests for a permit to just build a simple deck.

With rights, comes responsibilities--join the crowd.

We used to have a system where essentially all you had to do was show up and check in. That system no longer exists.

Not sure why people keep bringing up that prior system as some type of indictment of the people who "fail to come here legally" now. It is an irrelevant comparison - our system now is light years from the "just show up and check in" option.

 

[johnnycakes]

just thinking out loud here (hope I don't hurt myself)... the paperwork and the wait to enter legally is indeed horrendous, especially for unskilled workers. For those who can get themselves to the border, why not provide them with an opportunity to earn a green card doing the kind of work no one else wants to do... (which is one of the big arguments I hear why illegal immigrants are a net benefit). I'm thinking a 5-year work program where the government can contract out adult labor at minimum wage (charge US employer minimum wage) while paying the worker something less than minimum wage, and the government can pocket the difference. Immigrant family shows up at the border and say they want the 5-year program to get a green card. Something along those lines.

 

[avoiding injuries]

Will this make the administration tighten up their stance on immagration, seeing what happens when they show leniency?

 

[johnnycakes]

Obama announces relief effort for workers

http://www.wcvb.com/politics/obama-launches-efforts-to-save-honey-bees/26607848

 

[matuski]

Tim....

 

[Hot Diggity Dog]

just thinking out loud here (hope I don't hurt myself)... the paperwork and the wait to enter legally is indeed horrendous, especially for unskilled workers. For those who can get themselves to the border, why not provide them with an opportunity to earn a green card doing the kind of work no one else wants to do... (which is one of the big arguments I hear why illegal immigrants are a net benefit). I'm thinking a 5-year work program where the government can contract out adult labor at minimum wage (charge US employer minimum wage) while paying the worker something less than minimum wage, and the government can pocket the difference. Immigrant family shows up at the border and say they want the 5-year program to get a green card. Something along those lines.

Maybe they could build a wall?

 

[timschochet]

Tim....

Et tu, Brute?

 

[johnnycakes]

just thinking out loud here (hope I don't hurt myself)... the paperwork and the wait to enter legally is indeed horrendous, especially for unskilled workers. For those who can get themselves to the border, why not provide them with an opportunity to earn a green card doing the kind of work no one else wants to do... (which is one of the big arguments I hear why illegal immigrants are a net benefit). I'm thinking a 5-year work program where the government can contract out adult labor at minimum wage (charge US employer minimum wage) while paying the worker something less than minimum wage, and the government can pocket the difference. Immigrant family shows up at the border and say they want the 5-year program to get a green card. Something along those lines.

Maybe they could build a wall?

To tunnel under?

 

[Sarnoff]

I want a strong fence on the border, throughout the entire border, and you can’t tell me this won’t solve the problem for the most part. It could be done easily and cheaply, too, compared to the cost of border patrols and to our law enforcement, in general. The American people want this fence; its eventually going to happen, wait and see.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

I want a strong fence on the border, throughout the entire border, and you can’t tell me this won’t solve the problem for the most part. It could be done easily and cheaply, too, compared to the cost of border patrols and to our law enforcement, in general. The American people want this fence; its eventually going to happen, wait and see.

An electric fence that shocks anyone touching it...knocking them back 30 yards or so ...ZAP BOOM

 

[Mohawk]

They already have border walls ... built at huge expense. There are tunnels under most of them. The people hired to build the walls put tunnels under it. LOL! You cannot build walls that are impenetrable. Can you say Xenophobia? You guys are ridiculous in your fears.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

They already have border walls ... built at huge expense. There are tunnels under most of them. The people hired to build the walls put tunnels under it. LOL! You cannot build walls that are impenetrable. Can you say Xenophobia? You guys are ridiculous in your fears.

even dogs mark their territory ...fear has nothing to do with it