we got rid of capitalism a long time agoCapitalism isn't fair. It's efficient.But unfortunately capitalism is not designed to be fair. It does not exist.
I think I've finally arrived at the acceptance you're getting at here. My wife and I both have jobs that would be single income breadwinners a few decades ago. Now? We can either save or educate, but can't do both. I don't share that for sympathy cause there is an easy path we could take - put the kids in the ****ty local public school. I share that because we have relatively good jobs and that's our reality. What about the greater % that don't.You guys realize that I arbitrarily used the $80k a year number for somebody supporting a family ...
Right on. A lot more meaningful to look at it as "household income" than "a young single person's income".
Around here, there is a general ethic to avoid public schools. And, no, it's not as simple as "pick up and move to a good district!". Take my word on that or don't.
So $80k for a local household ... if they're selling out hard to put two kids through Catholic school (huge around here, tons of non-Catholic kids, too), $80k might as well be $40k. The right answers for how households need to spend their money is not as pat as all that.
More evidence, I work for a Fortune 500 US retailer who laid off about 20% of their tech people this week.
I'm just guessing but maybe half as many were hired in that time period. They didn't hold back with the layoffs. It included people with tenure not just contractors and newbies.More evidence, I work for a Fortune 500 US retailer who laid off about 20% of their tech people this week.
How many people did they hire in the post-covid boom?
This is us here in KC.I think I've finally arrived at the acceptance you're getting at here. My wife and I both have jobs that would be single income breadwinners a few decades ago. Now? We can either save or educate, but can't do both. I don't share that for sympathy cause there is an easy path we could take - put the kids in the ****ty local public school. I share that because we have relatively good jobs and that's our reality. What about the greater % that don't.
They’ve been saying the sea would rise for like 70 years.Just wait till the sea rises a couple feet and/or a Cat 5 cruises across Miami, or something suitably large and spinny hits Manhattan.I would like to subscribe to your news letter. Agree 100%.It's harsh, but the reality is if you've been making $80k/yr for the last 10-15 years and aren't relatively well off and secure now, you have no one to blame but yourself.
The problem is that, due to crazy friendly economic policy, things have just been way too easy the last 10-15 years. And people have gotten too comfortable with that. Everyone spends like crazy, is stupid with their money, and just when they're about to learn a hard lesson and change things, the government shifts its already overly friendly policy to be even easier to bail everyone out, and the only thing anyone learns is that they can keep being irresponsible and they'll never have to pay for it.
The stock market is up a zillion percent the last 15 years. Real estate is up two zillion percent. And every year we got new laws and tax advantages to leverage all of our real estate equity and turn that free money into even more free money. And all of this and the low rates drive inflation, which overwhelmingly affects the people that can't take advantage of any of those things.
So for me, I can watch all of my assets and money go up by stupid amounts every few years and a $2 increase in the price of bread is completely negligible. But for the low wage single mom of 3 that has never had an opportunity to get involved in those assets, that bread price increase is a BIG deal.
And now, finally, after all this time the lower wage people are finally starting to get a bone thrown their way via economic policy, and all the upper middle class and above that have had super easy mode for the last 15 years act like this is the end of times. Which is not an uncommon reaction people have to things. People get used to insane privilege so much that when that privilege starts being balanced back out even a little bit they view it as inequality.
Another part of it is just how we've changed as a society, valuing travel and experiences, and also what we've gotten used to on that front, as the government continued to use monetary policy to sustain an unsustainable economy for way longer than it should have.
We can think "oh many our parents made less money and they never had to worry about things". But think about your parent's lives. When you were a kid, how many big family vacations did you go on? How often did you go out to restaurants? Now compare that to what your kids have experienced with you as their parents.
I'm a fine art photographer on the side and I sell my stuff at art shows. There's nary a person that walks into my booth that doesn't go around to all the expensive places I took photos saying "been there, yep been to that one, seen that in person". These people are in there whining about how tight things are (for some reason this is always a place people like to get their political/economic complaints off their chest) 2 minutes after they pointed to my photo from Kauai and told me "I was just there last month" and pointed to my pic of Italy and were like "we just did our 5th trip there earlier this year". Yeah, things sound really "tight".
There's nothing wrong with spending money and focusing more on experiences. But far too many people did it too much and at the expense of making good decisions with their money at a time where you could almost do no wrong with money, other than spend all of it and count on the economy growing at an unsustainable pace forever.
I don't need to belaber my points to death, but I don't believe this country has understood adversity since Vietnam. Could you imagine the upheaval if there was a need for a draft? Do people know how to spell selective service card?
oh, and get off my lawn ... amazon is 3 stops away!!1!!11!
I get that $80K isn't FU money. You can't just do whatever you want at that level of income. No objection there.This thread has gotten weird. If you earn $80K per year, that's about twice the median income the US. You're doing fine at that income, and if you aren't, it's entirely your doing. I have no idea why people are talking about $80K types as if they're one paycheck away from living out of their car.
It's not quite that harrowing at $80k ... but it's miles away from not living check-to-check. To be clear, I'm talking about an $80k/year household with two or three minor children. Two professional adults making $160k together and supporting a couple-of-kids household is a different thing than the same household getting by on half that.
You're talking about $80k the way I'd talk about, say $200k or so. Granted, where you live and where I live (SE Louisiana), you can make a comfortable existence out of $80k gross annually ... but IMHO it takes some doing and your life will be pretty frill-free even around here. Making $80-100k and still living more or less check-to-check is not some "only an idiot" eff-up existence IMHO -- I know too many people in that boat.
The magic bit of info that a lot of people don't have about money is that you MUST save** and your savings have to (eventually) be shunted into money-earning vehicles. When your money makes money ... yeah, you can be OK on $80k/year and have some extras in your life.
** ideally, save a relative boatload as a young person and build an investable nest egg.
There are huge swaths of the country with good public schools and housing prices low enough to make $80K a very comfortable household income, but those places don't include San Francisco or NYC.
Craziness. How dare you stick to the OP’s actual topic.More evidence, I work for a Fortune 500 US retailer who laid off about 20% of their tech people this week.
Salaries tend to be higher in big cities.I get that $80K isn't FU money. You can't just do whatever you want at that level of income. No objection there.This thread has gotten weird. If you earn $80K per year, that's about twice the median income the US. You're doing fine at that income, and if you aren't, it's entirely your doing. I have no idea why people are talking about $80K types as if they're one paycheck away from living out of their car.
It's not quite that harrowing at $80k ... but it's miles away from not living check-to-check. To be clear, I'm talking about an $80k/year household with two or three minor children. Two professional adults making $160k together and supporting a couple-of-kids household is a different thing than the same household getting by on half that.
You're talking about $80k the way I'd talk about, say $200k or so. Granted, where you live and where I live (SE Louisiana), you can make a comfortable existence out of $80k gross annually ... but IMHO it takes some doing and your life will be pretty frill-free even around here. Making $80-100k and still living more or less check-to-check is not some "only an idiot" eff-up existence IMHO -- I know too many people in that boat.
The magic bit of info that a lot of people don't have about money is that you MUST save** and your savings have to (eventually) be shunted into money-earning vehicles. When your money makes money ... yeah, you can be OK on $80k/year and have some extras in your life.
** ideally, save a relative boatload as a young person and build an investable nest egg.
But I can't help but notice that the people in this thread telling me how hard it is to get by on such an income are also talking about how they have to live near the center of a major city, and they want to be able to pay for private school. Well, sorry, but that's not how it works. There are huge swaths of the country with good public schools and housing prices low enough to make $80K a very comfortable household income, but those places don't include San Francisco or NYC. If you choose to live in an expensive city with dysfunctional schools, I don't see why that's any more defensible than somebody who leases a new car every three years and owns a fancy boat. These are bad financial decision made by people who are bad at handling their finances. That's the point.
It has been rising.They’ve been saying the sea would rise for like 70 years.
This was inevitable after the lack of homebuilding in the 2000s. Rising population + fewer homes in the market = higher prices.Home Price to Household income ratio now worse than it was in 2008
In your opinion, what percentage of people are struggling financially from poor decisions?I just find it hard to have empathy for people that claim to not have enough money.
Most of us go to good enough schools that can get us good enough degrees to make enough money to live somewhere comfortably.
if you didn't make the right life decisions, that's a you problem.
Didn't to well in school? your fault.
Didin't save your money? your fault.
Had kids you can't afford? your fault.
Picked the wrong degree? your fault.
Live in an expensive place or above your means? your fault.
The culture of blaming everybody else for your life decisions is ridiculous.
*this is not a political post
Most people vastly underestimate the amount that luck plays in their lives.I just find it hard to have empathy for people that claim to not have enough money.
Most of us go to good enough schools that can get us good enough degrees to make enough money to live somewhere comfortably.
if you didn't make the right life decisions, that's a you problem.
Didn't to well in school? your fault.
Didin't save your money? your fault.
Had kids you can't afford? your fault.
Picked the wrong degree? your fault.
Live in an expensive place or above your means? your fault.
The culture of blaming everybody else for your life decisions is ridiculous.
*this is not a political post
Absolutely. Being born in America is a great start, but a good upbringing, health and support system are far from guaranteed. And many opportunities are the purely the result of being in the right place and the right time.Most people vastly underestimate the amount that luck plays in their lives.I just find it hard to have empathy for people that claim to not have enough money.
Most of us go to good enough schools that can get us good enough degrees to make enough money to live somewhere comfortably.
if you didn't make the right life decisions, that's a you problem.
Didn't to well in school? your fault.
Didin't save your money? your fault.
Had kids you can't afford? your fault.
Picked the wrong degree? your fault.
Live in an expensive place or above your means? your fault.
The culture of blaming everybody else for your life decisions is ridiculous.
*this is not a political post
There are huge swaths of the country with good public schools and housing prices low enough to make $80K a very comfortable household income, but those places don't include San Francisco or NYC.
The individual situations are never really simple like that -- "Just pick up and go somewhere else!" Some can do that, sure -- not all, though.
Besides, if we're being honest: Where you and I live (respectively), there really aren't that many $80k/yr jobs. The remote-work revolution has been a nice counter (for white-collar folks who could take advantage) ... but now a few employers have caught on and a starting to compensate employees based on where they live (anecdote from another board).
Yes, yes, I'm sure when you were entering college you avoided certain fields because they mightbe replaced by an algorithm or artificial intelligence.I just find it hard to have empathy for people that claim to not have enough money.
Most of us go to good enough schools that can get us good enough degrees to make enough money to live somewhere comfortably.
if you didn't make the right life decisions, that's a you problem.
Didn't to well in school? your fault.
Didin't save your money? your fault.
Had kids you can't afford? your fault.
Picked the wrong degree? your fault.
Live in an expensive place or above your means? your fault.
The culture of blaming everybody else for your life decisions is ridiculous.
*this is not a political post
Because if the billionaires don't keep making more money than the quarter before the economy will collapse! We need the rich to get even richer because of...reasons, and if you disagree you hate capitalism and America and are a communist.This must be a naive question, but: Why is the glass ceiling on wages so strong?
It seems like almost all employers consider annual or biannual cost-of-living raises to be crazy talk. What made wages rise between, say, the 1970s and 2007 or so? And are similar forces just not around today?
Not sure why I was quoted here. I'm talking about people who insist on living in expensive parts of the country and sending their kids to private school. Those are financially expensive decisions that people are making on their own right now, not with-the-benefit-of-hindsight calls like picking a major that didn't quite work out. Nobody's forcing anybody to live someplace with ****ty public schools.There are huge swaths of the country with good public schools and housing prices low enough to make $80K a very comfortable household income, but those places don't include San Francisco or NYC.
The individual situations are never really simple like that -- "Just pick up and go somewhere else!" Some can do that, sure -- not all, though.
Besides, if we're being honest: Where you and I live (respectively), there really aren't that many $80k/yr jobs. The remote-work revolution has been a nice counter (for white-collar folks who could take advantage) ... but now a few employers have caught on and a starting to compensate employees based on where they live (anecdote from another board).
Yes, yes, I'm sure when you were entering college you avoided certain fields because they mightbe replaced by an algorithm or artificial intelligence.I just find it hard to have empathy for people that claim to not have enough money.
Most of us go to good enough schools that can get us good enough degrees to make enough money to live somewhere comfortably.
if you didn't make the right life decisions, that's a you problem.
Didn't to well in school? your fault.
Didin't save your money? your fault.
Had kids you can't afford? your fault.
Picked the wrong degree? your fault.
Live in an expensive place or above your means? your fault.
The culture of blaming everybody else for your life decisions is ridiculous.
*this is not a political post
Not everyone had the same sober, objective thousand foot view of the job economy you clearly did a quarter century ago.
Well done, you.
I'm not really sure how I managed to quote you either, so I share your confusion.Not sure why I was quoted here
im not sure what you mean by “expensive“ parts of the country. I mean, I do, but every part of our country needs to have a mix of expensive and inexpensive housing to be able to run that area. New York is a pretty decent example as it is certainly an expensive place to live but there are “cheap” pockets of surrounding areas. Miami (otoh) is seeing the housing market pricing out essential workers like nurses and police etc bc there isn’t enough affordable housing.Not sure why I was quoted here. I'm talking about people who insist on living in expensive parts of the country and sending their kids to private school. Those are financially expensive decisions that people are making on their own right now, not with-the-benefit-of-hindsight calls like picking a major that didn't quite work out. Nobody's forcing anybody to live someplace with ****ty public schools.
(Also, to be clear, I have no issue with people who choose to live in expensive locations. If that's how you choose to spend your money, cool. Opening up your wallet to live in a place you enjoy seems like a prudent decision to me, as long as you're skimping elsewhere of course. Just asking folks to see that that's a choice, not an accident of birth.)
Most people vastly underestimate the amount that luck plays in their lives.
In your opinion, what percentage of people are struggling financially from poor decisions?
Also, who amongst us hasn't made a bad life decision? I know I've made a ton, and consider myself lucky to be in a good place despite some poor choices.
Yeah we could do without the chains. But no matter the business, we have to stop this carte blanche thievery that’s happening on the West Coast. Tired of these soft prosecutors and laws.I'm thinking put in a WalMart. They need more of those in Portland, right?I wouldn't want to be long on these chain restaurants that rely on middle class and lower middle class going out and spending disposable income.As far as retail goes, spaces with large square footages are having trouble, but that’s been going on for years. Most of the businesses that were hurt or shut down by Covid are up and running again- the exception are some of the chain restaurants
Red Lobster is closing down like 700 locations. The 3 Cracker Barrels that opened up in Portland like 5 years ago abruptly shut down and let everybody go. The F is somebody going to do with a freshly built Cracker Barrel building?
Too soon?
To be fair, Portland area residents fought against Walmart coming here for years. There was one on 82nd (Portland's version of 8 Mile) and that was it. Then they started popping up here and now they're gone again? So.....store nobody wanted here packed up and left. Story at 11?
The Cracker Barrel entry here was just dumb. Not every populace wants bland breakfast items smothered in highly caloric gravy with a gift shop selling pickled okra and singing, wall-mounted bass.
Most people vastly underestimate the amount that luck plays in their lives.
I would argue the exact opposite.
But . . . you chose which school district to live in. That wasn't an accident. That's all I'm saying.im not sure what you mean by “expensive“ parts of the country. I mean, I do, but every part of our country needs to have a mix of expensive and inexpensive housing to be able to run that area. New York is a pretty decent example as it is certainly an expensive place to live but there are “cheap” pockets of surrounding areas. Miami (otoh) is seeing the housing market pricing out essential workers like nurses and police etc bc there isn’t enough affordable housing.Not sure why I was quoted here. I'm talking about people who insist on living in expensive parts of the country and sending their kids to private school. Those are financially expensive decisions that people are making on their own right now, not with-the-benefit-of-hindsight calls like picking a major that didn't quite work out. Nobody's forcing anybody to live someplace with ****ty public schools.
(Also, to be clear, I have no issue with people who choose to live in expensive locations. If that's how you choose to spend your money, cool. Opening up your wallet to live in a place you enjoy seems like a prudent decision to me, as long as you're skimping elsewhere of course. Just asking folks to see that that's a choice, not an accident of birth.)
as for “sending kids to private schools”. The right has made it almost one of their bedrock principals to defund public education in leui of subsidizing their for profit private schools and religious programs. In doing so the ability of public schools to do their job keeps getting harder and harder and the squeeze to get your kid into college makes that harder still. I live in a pretty expensive neighborhood in Miami (it wasn’t when I bought it but now it’s outrageous). The public school my kids were zoned for was brand spanking new at the time and pulled in some of the best teachers from the district. The “across the tracks” elementary was a low income area and the school was older, more run down, etc.
to pretend that this is somehow an “individual’s “ choice when so many at the top of the food chain skew the rules to benefit themselves is asinine. A great kid from a poor neighborhood can excel in this country but so can a below average kid from a more well to do area. A poor diamond and a rich lump of coal have about the same chance of success in the USA.
The study is BS.in any case, there have been studies on this if interested
Is it still a victim mentality if the opinion is coming from successful people?The study is BS.in any case, there have been studies on this if interested
First off, "luck", "success", and what a society "realizes" are all subjective concepts that are impossible to measure and/or quantify.
Beyond that, the study defines "talent" as "whatever personal characteristics enable someone to exploit lucky opportunities. And then it uses a bunch of self-controlled traits such as "skill, determination and emotional intelligence" to define these personal characteristics.
The reality is that random (i.e. "lucky") opportunities and events happen to everybody on a daily basis, but those that are motivated and work hard to develop self-controlled traits are the ones best able to take advantage of those events (i.e. "success").
The whole "people underestimate luck's role in success" statement just reeks of victim mentality (not a talent, but certainly self-controlled).
It's weird. I agree with you, but I think there is a tipping point. My parents were downright wealthy in Cuba, but they came to Miami penniless. Both worked in Miami and both lived well beyond their means (but did manage to buy a house 10 years after coming here) and their "goal" was to give their kids whatever they needed to succeed.One of the biggest determinants for a person's wealth is their parent's wealth. Class mobility in the USA is by and large an illusion; exceptions do not make the rule.
The study is BS.
First off, "luck", "success", and what a society "realizes" are all subjective concepts that are impossible to measure and/or quantify.
Beyond that, the study defines "talent" as "whatever personal characteristics enable someone to exploit lucky opportunities. And then it uses a bunch of self-controlled traits such as "skill, determination and emotional intelligence" to define these personal characteristics.
The reality is that random (i.e. "lucky") opportunities and events happen to everybody on a daily basis, but those that are motivated and work hard to develop self-controlled traits are the ones best able to take advantage of those events (i.e. "success").
The whole "people underestimate luck's role in success" statement just reeks of victim mentality (not a talent, but certainly self-controlled).
Ha, I would say this is a safe bet.There may be a larger "malaise" for those who have been in the US for generations
I am in the top 5%…..my son went K-12 to public school. Granted I made sure I lived in an A rated school district. But while several of my neighbors went the private school route with their kids 6-12 education (hey their choice and I respect it) I was able to save 30-35K a year not going that route. Did I pay slightly higher taxes? Yeah....but well worth it.I get that $80K isn't FU money. You can't just do whatever you want at that level of income. No objection there.This thread has gotten weird. If you earn $80K per year, that's about twice the median income the US. You're doing fine at that income, and if you aren't, it's entirely your doing. I have no idea why people are talking about $80K types as if they're one paycheck away from living out of their car.
It's not quite that harrowing at $80k ... but it's miles away from not living check-to-check. To be clear, I'm talking about an $80k/year household with two or three minor children. Two professional adults making $160k together and supporting a couple-of-kids household is a different thing than the same household getting by on half that.
You're talking about $80k the way I'd talk about, say $200k or so. Granted, where you live and where I live (SE Louisiana), you can make a comfortable existence out of $80k gross annually ... but IMHO it takes some doing and your life will be pretty frill-free even around here. Making $80-100k and still living more or less check-to-check is not some "only an idiot" eff-up existence IMHO -- I know too many people in that boat.
The magic bit of info that a lot of people don't have about money is that you MUST save** and your savings have to (eventually) be shunted into money-earning vehicles. When your money makes money ... yeah, you can be OK on $80k/year and have some extras in your life.
** ideally, save a relative boatload as a young person and build an investable nest egg.
But I can't help but notice that the people in this thread telling me how hard it is to get by on such an income are also talking about how they have to live near the center of a major city, and they want to be able to pay for private school. Well, sorry, but that's not how it works. There are huge swaths of the country with good public schools and housing prices low enough to make $80K a very comfortable household income, but those places don't include San Francisco or NYC. If you choose to live in an expensive city with dysfunctional schools, I don't see why that's any more defensible than somebody who leases a new car every three years and owns a fancy boat. These are bad financial decision made by people who are bad at handling their finances. That's the point.
you are so right here. Even before COVID our former president with his tax break for the rich and blowing up the deficit was going to be a problem. Now add 2-3 covid stimulus packages, a global supply chain issue, and a new energy policy and things were going to get weird (and we are not even talking about our aging population or immigration gap...).
It’s not horrible at all......the problem is the entire country got hooked and high on 3% prime rates....2.75% mortgage rates and near 0% car rates......that is lunacy and should not happen again unless we go off a cliff economically.
Let’s put it this way.....the Fed has given itself plenty of tools again to respond to an economic crisis. This is all by design. And let’s not forget Covid really screwed them.....I think raises would have started back in 2020 if Covid never happened. I truly believe that.
Both Administrations dropped 9 Trillion dollars in Covid Stimulus into the economy. Our entire economy is 22 trillion dollars......think about that.you are so right here. Even before COVID our former president with his tax break for the rich and blowing up the deficit was going to be a problem. Now add 2-3 covid stimulus packages, a global supply chain issue, and a new energy policy and things were going to get weird (and we are not even talking about our aging population or immigration gap...).
It’s not horrible at all......the problem is the entire country got hooked and high on 3% prime rates....2.75% mortgage rates and near 0% car rates......that is lunacy and should not happen again unless we go off a cliff economically.
Let’s put it this way.....the Fed has given itself plenty of tools again to respond to an economic crisis. This is all by design. And let’s not forget Covid really screwed them.....I think raises would have started back in 2020 if Covid never happened. I truly believe that.
To be fair, I am surprised the US is doing as well as it is despite the global crap-show. Regardless of Political party in this case, there ain't no such thing as a free lunch. The US economy is still proving to be more resilient than the rest of the worlds', but that doesn't mean we will get through without taking some economic "lumps"
To improve your ability to empathize, maybe imagine those struggling are in the 20%*? I mean, how often will you really know everything about one’s upbringing and current situation?In your opinion, what percentage of people are struggling financially from poor decisions?
I would say roughly 20% for those reasons you mentioned.
Help me out here. Less than 20% of the planet’s population lives in the developed world. Only 330 million, out of 8 BILLION people ended up in the US.Most people vastly underestimate the amount that luck plays in their lives.
I would argue the exact opposite.
Nobody's forcing anybody to live someplace with ****ty public schools.
One of the biggest determinants for a person's wealth is their parent's wealth. Class mobility in the USA is by and large an illusion; exceptions do not make the rule.
Help me out here. Less than 20% of the planet’s population lives in the developed world. Only 330 million, out of 8 BILLION people ended up in the US.Most people vastly underestimate the amount that luck plays in their lives.
I would argue the exact opposite.
To improve your ability to empathize, maybe imagine those struggling are in the 20%*? I mean, how often will you really know everything about one’s upbringing and current situation?
What’s the harm in giving people the benefit of the doubt? The alternative is pretty misanthropic imo.
* Your response is confusing. I think you meant 1 in 5 were struggling due to circumstances beyond their control. If you instead believe a minority are bad decision-makers, and the other 80% aren’t to blame, empathy ain’t your strong suit.
"Anybody" in that context meant anybody earning $80K a year.Nobody's forcing anybody to live someplace with ****ty public schools.
Wait what? There are generations of people in this country that have been born in areas with "****ty public schools." They didn't make that choice. Their parents and grandparents were born there and got a poor education and little opportunity to advance economically enough to create the opportunity to move to somewhere with better schools. Could be urban inner city or large swaths of rural America, same story.