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Am I (we) the problem (AITA) - advice from the collective wisdom of the FFA (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Slumpbusters
- Start date
Phil Elliott
Footballguy
You might be more like a "normal" family than you know. Holidays can be tough on families. My SIL blows up with drama every year between now and Xmas. She is the poster child for "pay me but I don't want to work".
bigbottom
Footballguy
Ah, I went back and reread the original post and I get now that you're not looking for advice on how to handle the situation. Rather, your inquiry is simply whether you and your wife are the "A"s in this story. Boiling this down to the basics, this is my takeaway of the fundamental facts:
1) Divorce decree states that your brother is obligated to spend Thanksgiving and Christmas with his ex and your niece.
2) You and your wife refuse to spend Thanksgiving and Christmas with your brother's ex.
3) As a result, his family and your family are not able to be together on Thanksgiving or Christmas, and this makes your parents sad.
As odious as your brother's ex may be, on balance I think you and your wife come out on top with respect to your question.
Mrs. Rannous
Footballguy
Did you ever truly apologize for this? Because you absolutely have no right to make other people's reasonable health choices for them. I have no idea why you think it's "ridiclous" for people to want distance from others during a pandemic. Picking on others for wanting to wear a mask or maintain a distance is just wrong on so many levels.
Man up and apologize if you have not already done so.
Zow
Footballguy
Right. Having a family member that one probably wouldn't otherwise ever socialize with is commonplace. I mentioned my sister-in-law above and I will reiterate that she is very challenging at times. And, at points, she has caused some issues between my wife and me (primarily because my wife is comfortable letting SIL be in complete control where I don't handle being directed without it bothering me) as well as put my wife and I in a position where we have seriously considered not attending certain events that are important to her family.
Some suggestions I have really seemed to work for us and, quite honestly, put me in a situation where my SIL's relationship with me is about as good as it's ever been:
1. Stay away from alcohol when around the family member - why should be obvious.
2. Have an escape plan, even if temporary - my wife and I have developed basically like an unspoken code whereby one of us (usually me) can signal to the other one a break is needed and it's understood that this will happen and is okay. For example, I will intentionally go to bed early when we're socializing later into the evening with my SIL and my wife will support this move and even proffer an innocent explanation (e.g. had a long week of work). Or, if we're driving home, we'll have a predetermined reason whereby we may need to leave early.
3. Keep the conversation focused on her, her child, or some other mundane topic. People are often the most pleasant when talking about themselves (and their children by extension) so keep asking about her and she'll lighten and stay away from drama. Alternatively, keep the topic mundane to avoid potential disagreements. In other words, stay the hell away from politics, religion, etc. where a disagreement is inevitable.
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
Not too mention this is right after the Delta surge and an unvaccinated one year old.
Zow
Footballguy
Or, just simply agree to disagree and move on.
Speaking from firsthand experience, we have some family members who always did Thanksgiving and Christmas with us. When Covid hit, we (the collective family) asked that attendees Christmas dinner to either be vaccinated or, at the very least, test beforehand to ensure everybody is negative at the get together. These particular family members responded by saying it's a hoax and they won't do that. We all then just mutually agreed that they wouldn't join. Nobody got all mad and apologies were never necessary or expected. A few years later when Covid died down they resumed coming and it hasn't been an issue since.
But, if I apply yours and your wife's logic, these family members should be apologizing to us for some irrational reason.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Have you tried to have an airing of grievances yet?
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
It doesn’t matter if ex-SIL is a narcissist; you aren’t her therapist, and won’t be changing her personality regardless.
As others have said, taking the high road a couple days a year is the correct path. You just need to convince your wife.
ETA Amongst a lot of good advice, @bigbottom summarized the situation best. Really nothing else needs to be said.
As others have said, taking the high road a couple days a year is the correct path. You just need to convince your wife.
ETA Amongst a lot of good advice, @bigbottom summarized the situation best. Really nothing else needs to be said.
Zow
Footballguy
While a Festivus celebration is always brilliant, I assume such airing occurred in the dissolution pleadings.
Mrs. Rannous
Footballguy
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Also, what the hell is this crap about spending holidays with your ex - I thought the whole point of getting divorced was not to have to spend time with them?
Don Quixote
Footballguy
I remember having a masked gathering with my grandma and aunt that Christmas. It was great to see them as it had been since pre-pandemic. They both tested positive for Covid the next day; so, we were glad had the masks on, and, as a result, they did not spread to us or my unvaccinated kid. Able to meet up safely and glad no one said to stay away if wanted masks or social distance.
Mrs. Rannous
Footballguy
Not when there's a child involved.
Zow
Footballguy
In my experience it takes two very exceptional people to be able to do joint holidays after a divorce and such is not the norm. And that's okay, even if a child is involved.
I this situation I'd put the over/under at how long this joint holiday plan lasts at 2.5 years and I'd heavily bet the under.
ETA: But, I do agree with @Mrs. Rannous 's point that two parents with a child or children cannot simply expect to avoid the other parent for the rest of their lives. I counsel clients all the time to try to either work through or put aside the reasons for their divorce for the kids' sake because, ideally, they'll all be attending college graduations, weddings, holidays, etc. for their kids at some point and will still be somewhat tied to their ex-spouse indefinitely.
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Terminalxylem
Footballguy
As a child of divorce, I actually enjoyed a couple days a year spent as a “family”, even if it was forced, and fleeting.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Yeah - maybe if it was forced and amicable. Like Woz said it’s not many.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
I could spend time with my kid without having to spend time with my ex. I’ll never have to deal with it as I never plan to get divorced and my kids are essentially all grown. But anything that would make me or my wife feel like we needed to divorce the other would be bad enough where we’d probably not be interested in spending holidays together.
NutterButter
Footballguy
I actually like spending time with my ex at family gatherings. When she's in a good mood which tends to be the case at these events, she's a lot of fun to be around unlike the rest of my uptight, boring family. Its just most of the rest of the time that wasn't very good.
bigbottom
Footballguy
It’s not that the divorced parents want to spend time with each other. It’s that they each want to spend Thanksgiving and Christmas with their child.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Sure - and my original post was a little tongue in cheek but as someone who spent Christmas and Thanksgiving at different parents houses it was much better, IMO, than them pretending. We joke kids are dumb but they aren’t. Ultimately, it’s a very individual choice and situation specific so I don’t think there’s a right or wrong decision to make. I just find it weird people would put that in a divorce agreement.
ProstheticRGK
Footballguy
Often in life you can insist on being “right”, or you can be happy. Not often can you be both.
Slumpbusters
Footballguy
A lot happened on this thread overnight, thanks to everyone for taking the time to respond. There are parts of me that are fully aware that we are the aholes because we can't just rise above it all, and parts of me that need to hold my brother's ex accountable for negative treatment of my wife, so therein lies the conflict.
I probably overemphasized the conflict over covid. It was very passive. We are far from deniers. We are fully vaccinated and even have the current vac. At the slightest hint of a sniffle we don't get together, and we did offer to test beforehand. The whole extent of the open conflict over covid was my wife leaving a facebook messenger group text and me saying "let's not get together until you guys feel a little safer because this is triggering for me".
My brother's ex took the leaving of the facebook messenger group as an aggression by my wife, so she went over to my mom and dad's house (highly unusual) to talk to them about it. My wife got mad and said if you have a problem talk to me about it don't bring my mother and law of at this point 18 years into this. This resulted in a phone conversation that was 1 minute of peace and 4 minutes of hell (a mini festivus so to speak) and them ultimately hanging up on each other. My wife reached out to the ex a week later to try to reconcile at which point the ex told her she would tolerate her at family gatherings but not speak outside of them in any format. At this point my wife felt disrespected (again) and said fine not getting together then because I'm not just going to be "tolerated" and the ex felt attacked because she was called out by my wife for going to my mom.
We tried three other times to reconcile over the year they were still together up to last year inviting everyone (including the ex) to Thanksgiving at our place. Its at this point my brother announced his separation and pending divorce.
I talked to the ex in february directly on the phone for about an hour again at her request to try to find a path to peace now that the divorce had been settled. She did really well for about 45 min of the hour but would break here and there to let her true feelings out saying things like "if your wife could just act like an adult", "I think she may be intimidated by me" (my wife has made presentations to the Korean military and is far from intimidated), "your brother doesn't represent me well", etc. Its clear that she can't stand my wife, and my wife will see through this and feel it the whole time they are together.
So therein lies the rub. I am convinced the ex wants nothing to do with us (in fairness why would she) but she does want complete control of the niece (also understandable to be fair). The problem in divorce is she needs to trust my brother (and ultimately us) that any interactions we have with the niece will be completely respectful of her (which they have been and always will be).
I probably overemphasized the conflict over covid. It was very passive. We are far from deniers. We are fully vaccinated and even have the current vac. At the slightest hint of a sniffle we don't get together, and we did offer to test beforehand. The whole extent of the open conflict over covid was my wife leaving a facebook messenger group text and me saying "let's not get together until you guys feel a little safer because this is triggering for me".
My brother's ex took the leaving of the facebook messenger group as an aggression by my wife, so she went over to my mom and dad's house (highly unusual) to talk to them about it. My wife got mad and said if you have a problem talk to me about it don't bring my mother and law of at this point 18 years into this. This resulted in a phone conversation that was 1 minute of peace and 4 minutes of hell (a mini festivus so to speak) and them ultimately hanging up on each other. My wife reached out to the ex a week later to try to reconcile at which point the ex told her she would tolerate her at family gatherings but not speak outside of them in any format. At this point my wife felt disrespected (again) and said fine not getting together then because I'm not just going to be "tolerated" and the ex felt attacked because she was called out by my wife for going to my mom.
We tried three other times to reconcile over the year they were still together up to last year inviting everyone (including the ex) to Thanksgiving at our place. Its at this point my brother announced his separation and pending divorce.
I talked to the ex in february directly on the phone for about an hour again at her request to try to find a path to peace now that the divorce had been settled. She did really well for about 45 min of the hour but would break here and there to let her true feelings out saying things like "if your wife could just act like an adult", "I think she may be intimidated by me" (my wife has made presentations to the Korean military and is far from intimidated), "your brother doesn't represent me well", etc. Its clear that she can't stand my wife, and my wife will see through this and feel it the whole time they are together.
So therein lies the rub. I am convinced the ex wants nothing to do with us (in fairness why would she) but she does want complete control of the niece (also understandable to be fair). The problem in divorce is she needs to trust my brother (and ultimately us) that any interactions we have with the niece will be completely respectful of her (which they have been and always will be).
Slumpbusters
Footballguy
No doubt that the leaving of messenger was the pivotal point that started all this. There was alot of buildup to it though.
Ex Wife would gaslight current wife throughout any get together. Subtle, but there, to an extent we were often left with "did she really say that"
Ex wife would show up 30-45 min late to gatherings at her own house because she was still getting ready. When the whole gathering is slated for 2 hours thats a bit off. We blew that off too.
My wife put about 6 weeks of effort into making a 1st year baby book for brother and his wife. Not so much as a thank you or any follow up comment on the book.
Wife would put together gifts (birthday, etc) but her birthday was delayed or forgotten. Ex wife never bought my wife one single gift.
All of these are in and of themselves not that big of a deal but it starts to paint a picture when you put it all together. That led to my wife saying ok something has to change or this isn't going to end well, and the call for change wasn't well communicated or received and definitely didn't end well.
Its worth noting that the rest of my family was annoyed at wife leaving messenger chat as well, but that was all reconciled and we get together with everyone except the ex wife now no problem.
Zow
Footballguy
Most people going through a divorce are going through the worst point in their lives. For a decent length of time, and certainly during the divorce process itself, the divorce is constantly weighing on them and beating them down emotionally. So, naturally, there's not a ton of rational decision-making or even a whole lot of listening to one's lawyer and the result is a term that seems to the parties like a good way to maintain the family unit for the child only for them to realize later it's not.
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
This is all so petty and childish. Sorry man, you asked for input. This sounds like my 17 year old daughter and her overly dramatic friends. the woman is a selfish ingrate that is unpleasant. There are zillions of those in the world. Can you not put your righteousness aside for 3 days a year and be as nice as possible? Even if she’s not? Your elderly parents, the kid and your brother deserve it.
Sorry to be late.
Is your brother in favor of the ex-wife joining the get togethers without a clearing of the air and apologies?
My take would be do what you think is best without expectations of anyone else.
It's just easier that way. And better I think.
She's your niece's mother. And always will be. That's still family.
Family is precious and changes too quickly on it's own with folks passing and such.
My advice would be to be gracious and accommodating as best you can. I'd apologize and do the best I could to clear the air on my side with more of a "this is in the past. I'm sorry it went down this way but I can only affect the future and do the best you can there. With zero expectation or even a hint that you expect the same from her.
These things often work themselves out on their own for the best.
It's just easier that way. And better I think.
She's your niece's mother. And always will be. That's still family.
Family is precious and changes too quickly on it's own with folks passing and such.
My advice would be to be gracious and accommodating as best you can. I'd apologize and do the best I could to clear the air on my side with more of a "this is in the past. I'm sorry it went down this way but I can only affect the future and do the best you can there. With zero expectation or even a hint that you expect the same from her.
These things often work themselves out on their own for the best.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
Psychopav
Help us, Joebi-Wan Brynobi, you're our only ho
Sometimes the very definition of maturity is apologizing for something that is not your fault.
100%.
Thinking a bit more.
It doesn't take mutual consent to "clear the air".
You can clear your side of the air, be gracious and move on.
It's also important to define "clear the air". In most cases it's not reach some hard fought negotiation.
It's often just a simply apology or acknowledgement and owning part or all of the past, then expressing an intent to move forward in a positive way.
It doesn't take mutual consent to "clear the air".
You can clear your side of the air, be gracious and move on.
It's also important to define "clear the air". In most cases it's not reach some hard fought negotiation.
It's often just a simply apology or acknowledgement and owning part or all of the past, then expressing an intent to move forward in a positive way.
Slumpbusters
Footballguy
Thanks for the thoughtful feedback.
The last line is most poignant and we are more than willing to do that. My wife is locked in that she wants the same in return. Its a little different with her in that given her childhood past (rough home life including physical abuse) she is literally incapable of pretending that everything is fine or even a fake it till you make it approach.
So the tear is at what point do you do what is best vs. what is easiest? I'm getting the responses I mostly expected from a largely gen x male board and to be honest if it were just me feel mostly the same way. However, I also have my own home to consider and balance out responsibilities for both.
My frustration with my ex SIL is she is incapable of the last sentence and refuses to do it. That's literally all it would take (or would have taken, maybe not at this point).
Its also hard to describe but my ex SIL does about 50% of the time have a very negative energy (had to describe but you can feel it come off her), so you kind of don't know what you are gonna get.
We were ready to forge ahead at all costs until the divorce, at which point we let go. ex SIL has moved on and is dating, and apparently has a significant other important enough to mention to my mom, and brother hasn't even considered it yet. He seems to be hanging on.
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
"let's not get together until you guys feel a little safer because this is triggering for me"
are you kidding me? Cause that would piss me off too.
are you kidding me? Cause that would piss me off too.
Slumpbusters
Footballguy
My wife can be difficult in that she is incapable of ignoring an issue, or even just shelving it. She hits it head on, works through it and then moves on. That works as long as the other person is also willing to hit it head on and has a mutual interest in resolving it. For us that has resulted in 21 years of marriage and counting. Its a core value for her and its been this way forever. She wears her heart on her sleeve and calls a spade a spade. In many ways she is kind of like a dude in this regard. "Pretending" is not on the table for her. This isn't always the easiest approach thats for sure.As does the OP‘s current wife…” sounds like a long road of uncool”. I think the OP is trying to protect his wife because she is equally unstable.
ETA…it’s so sad to see this impact the kiddo and the grandparents
My natural inclination is to let things marinate and see if time heals wounds. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes the incremental hurts build up until they boil over and that's why many folks get divorced.
The kiddo thus far is unaffected. She's 3, and we see her reasonably often and its a nice time. The grandparents are also unaffected outside of their stress for my brother and their inherent need for Norman Rockwell holidays. They are taking the high road all around to the best of their ability. We see them often, usually once per week.
*edited to add, and probably worth noting, no previous issues and family was peas and carrots prior to 2021.
bigbottom
Footballguy
As an aside, I’m curious what you mean when you say your brother’s ex “gaslights” your wife. Do you have specific examples. “Gaslighting” is obviously a prevalent concept in modern society but a word that would never be found in my regular vocabulary (same with “triggering”). I’m curious to hear specifics.
Zow
Footballguy
She's not going to do it. And, at this point, now your wife is being equally stubborn and incapable as literally all it would take is her just relaxing a little bit and putting up with the SIL for a portion of a day.
Also, as to the second bold, you're acting like you're part of the divorce. You're not. Your brother is going to need time and if he's hanging on that's on him. Your role is, instead, to be that of a good uncle and right now you're not.
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Zow
Footballguy
I take it as it just means that the SIL says annoying and pompous stuff as the OP has already stated. People use "gaslight" all the time now and it just seems to mean now that it's anything that anybody else says that they don't like and by calling it "gaslighting" is justifies their irrational emotional response to it.
SWC
Bromigo
at the bar we used to have this guy that we all called stinky steve because he was into gas lighting and when i say that i mean that guy would light his own farts on fire and brohans trust me didnt no one want to be near old stinky at the bar thats all i am sayin take that to the bank brochachos
Slumpbusters
Footballguy
These are two new terms that entered my vernacular the last couple years too, as it has I think for most of American society.
"Gaslighting" in Gen X means "picking on" and is more targeted than being generally obnoxious. Finding something snide to say about something someone has done specifically or their life circumstance specifically. "Jabs" may also be an adjective. Less so "bragging". Phrases like "whats wrong with you", etc.
Chaz McNulty
Footballguy
After reading everything, it sounds like your wife is the only one preventing the entire family get-togethers. In the end, she will have to decide if her inability to let bygones be bygones are going to prevent your family from being at these events.My wife can be difficult in that she is incapable of ignoring an issue, or even just shelving it. She hits it head on, works through it and then moves on. That works as long as the other person is also willing to hit it head on and has a mutual interest in resolving it. For us that has resulted in 21 years of marriage and counting. Its a core value for her and its been this way forever. She wears her heart on her sleeve and calls a spade a spade. In many ways she is kind of like a dude in this regard. "Pretending" is not on the table for her. This isn't always the easiest approach thats for sure.As does the OP‘s current wife…” sounds like a long road of uncool”. I think the OP is trying to protect his wife because she is equally unstable.
ETA…it’s so sad to see this impact the kiddo and the grandparents
My natural inclination is to let things marinate and see if time heals wounds. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes the incremental hurts build up until they boil over and that's why many folks get divorced.
The kiddo thus far is unaffected. She's 3, and we see her reasonably often and its a nice time. The grandparents are also unaffected outside of their stress for my brother and their inherent need for Norman Rockwell holidays. They are taking the high road all around to the best of their ability. We see them often, usually once per week.
*edited to add, and probably worth noting, no previous issues and family was peas and carrots prior to 2021.
If I was your parents, I would just invite everyone. If someone doesn't show up because of a beef, then that's on them.
dgreen
Footballguy
I feel like too many people are ignoring his wife's childhood. As much as the ex-SIL isn't going to behave a certain way, neither is his wife. Sure, it's easy to say, "All you have to do is get over it and move on while you around her", but that doesn't seem like an easy thing for her to do. And it obviously puts Slump in a really tough spot.
Slumpbusters
Footballguy
You hit the nail exactly on the head, perfectly. My wife has apologized (to me, my parents, and my brother), and said unfortunately this is something ingrained in her and non-negotiable.
I am torn because my wife is still very much a part of the family, so why do we have to honor my brother's exes wishes and not my wife's? If I'm honest I'm not fired up about Thanksgiving with the ex and I definitely dont want to spend it with her and her new boyfriend once they hit the six month mark.
The simple answer to that is you rally around those that are most in crisis and put your own emotional needs aside. The more complicated answer is you set some healthy boundaries now and though painful allow folks to adjust to them and settle in to alternatives that are acceptable for everyone.
I am torn because my wife is still very much a part of the family, so why do we have to honor my brother's exes wishes and not my wife's? If I'm honest I'm not fired up about Thanksgiving with the ex and I definitely dont want to spend it with her and her new boyfriend once they hit the six month mark.
The simple answer to that is you rally around those that are most in crisis and put your own emotional needs aside. The more complicated answer is you set some healthy boundaries now and though painful allow folks to adjust to them and settle in to alternatives that are acceptable for everyone.
bigbottom
Footballguy
"I refuse to apologize" and "I refuse to be around her until she apologizes" are two sides of the same coin. And when it comes to that intractable coin, it's a no brainer - you should side with your wife. Sucks for your family, and especially your parents who I'm sure would love to spend time with all the grandkiddos on those special days, but it is what it is. Hopefully you only have to deal with it another year or two.
Slumpbusters
Footballguy
I see this and agree to an extent. I give a little more grace to my wife who realizes she Fed up and is more than willing to accept her share of the blame, she just doesn't want to be the martyr. For that I have a hard time blaming her.
Its not like we don't plan to see my grandparents or my brother and daughter. We plan to have a pseudo Thanksgiving with them the weekend prior to Thanksgiving (the ex wife will be out of town).
We plan to celebrate Christmas with all of them as a group without the ex wife on Christmas Eve as opposed to Christmas day.
Right now I plan to go to niece's birthday party alone but wife may come as well (she is yet undecided and very emotionally conflicted on it).
We feel like this is a pretty good compromise and leaves room for everyone to participate within everyone's boundaries (formal and informal) while keeping the peace. The ex just doesn't like to ever be excluded.
Slumpbusters
Footballguy
Nada, my wife and I have zero issues outside of this particular one, which is externally driven and likely temporary.
That was just a joke, but your wife is the root cause of the problem here
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