I can't take these idiot coaches anymore (1 Viewer)

[RGIII HTTR]

What none of the takes into consideration is the pressure of the moment. No matter what the pay scale is...each person reacts differently, although you'd think better with training and go over the situations multiple times in career.

 

[rick6668]

You're totally wrong about the Saints. You call the timeout before the 2 minute warning because the clock will automatically stop after the next play as well. There's no question it conserves the most time by calling the TO before. Anyone that has played any amount of Madden understands this. What's incredible is how often coaches actually screw this up and let the clock run down to the 2 minute warning.

Please post an example of how I would be worng.

You use timeouts when teams can run 35 seconds off the clock, not 3 seconds.

2:03 on the clock, second and 19. Call TO. Play gets run, takes 6 seconds, ending in the field of play. Third down, 1:57 on the clock, clock stops for the two-minute warning.

2:03 on the clock, second and 19. Don't call TO. Two minute warning. Play gets run, takes 6 seconds, ending in the field of play. Call TO. Third down, 1:54 on the clock.

You didn't factor in the incompletion. The game situation was 2 and 15+. SF got a free pass to go for a first down. If you let it run to two minutes and they still throw, you're at 1:54 with an extra timeout in your pocket.

Along the same lines, why does Kaepernick run out of bounds on the next play saving NO a timeout?

2:03 on the clock, second and 19. Call TO. Play gets run - Incomplete Pass, takes 6 seconds. Third down, 1:57 on the clock, clock stops for the two-minute warning.

2:03 on the clock, second and 19. Don't call TO. Two minute warning. Play gets run - Incomplete Pass, takes 6 seconds. Third down, 1:54 on the clock. Still have TO.

Which is better now?

 

[WilsonTheVolleyball]

Doug Marrone says close this thread. Apparently he said the following in his presser about how he thinks the offensive line is the reason for C.J. Spiller's disappointing season:

"I told [spiller] afterwards, 'You know what? I'd be pissed, too. But the difference between me and you, and this is what you have to do now, is go over to that group right there, and you tell them you're pissed."

Yeah coach, that'll go over real well. "Hey guys. Could ya'll do me a favor and block for a change? I'm tired of my stat line looking like crap because every single one of you probably picked up your foot mechanics from a paraplegic. Just look at Chris Ivory over there! You could fit a half dozen fat Eddie Lacys through the holes his line is opening up!"

Secondly Doug, isn't that your job? You know, the part where you're suppose to approach the offensive line at some point and tell them you think they are the reason why your team's best offensive weapon is having a terrible year? Are you too scared to say that to the players yourself? Or do you simply not understand exactly what the duties of a head coach are, because from watching the way you have gameplanned this year, I do honestly wonder.

Doug Marrone is the dumbest coach in the NFL since Brad Childress.

 

[cheese]

I'm not sure what playing Madden has to do with it - if you are trying to preserve clock, you call the timeout before the two-minute warning. Force an extra down before the next clock stoppage. Its not that difficult.

I agree up until 2:06. At that point, an incompletion or OOB is going to be a wasted stoppage. Let it go to 2min and if it is still an incompletion or OOB then you don't use the TO at all (or save it for the next down).

The <6 second difference isn't worth the possibility of an extra stoppage.

 

[cheese]

You're totally wrong about the Saints. You call the timeout before the 2 minute warning because the clock will automatically stop after the next play as well. There's no question it conserves the most time by calling the TO before. Anyone that has played any amount of Madden understands this. What's incredible is how often coaches actually screw this up and let the clock run down to the 2 minute warning.

Please post an example of how I would be worng.

You use timeouts when teams can run 35 seconds off the clock, not 3 seconds.

2:03 on the clock, second and 19. Call TO. Play gets run, takes 6 seconds, ending in the field of play. Third down, 1:57 on the clock, clock stops for the two-minute warning.

2:03 on the clock, second and 19. Don't call TO. Two minute warning. Play gets run, takes 6 seconds, ending in the field of play. Call TO. Third down, 1:54 on the clock.

You didn't factor in the incompletion. The game situation was 2 and 15+. SF got a free pass to go for a first down. If you let it run to two minutes and they still throw, you're at 1:54 with an extra timeout in your pocket.

Along the same lines, why does Kaepernick run out of bounds on the next play saving NO a timeout?

2:03 on the clock, second and 19. Call TO. Play gets run - Incomplete Pass, takes 6 seconds. Third down, 1:57 on the clock, clock stops for the two-minute warning.

2:03 on the clock, second and 19. Don't call TO. Two minute warning. Play gets run - Incomplete Pass, takes 6 seconds. Third down, 1:54 on the clock. Still have TO.

Which is better now?

Exactly. On top of that, coaches are WAY TOO conservative, so it's likely they would have just run up the middle on 2nd down and gotten nothing if you let it run to warning. What happens if they complete that pass that they're only throwing because you gave them a free crack at passing?

 

[BassNBrew]

You're totally wrong about the Saints. You call the timeout before the 2 minute warning because the clock will automatically stop after the next play as well. There's no question it conserves the most time by calling the TO before. Anyone that has played any amount of Madden understands this. What's incredible is how often coaches actually screw this up and let the clock run down to the 2 minute warning.

Please post an example of how I would be worng.

You use timeouts when teams can run 35 seconds off the clock, not 3 seconds.

2:03 on the clock, second and 19. Call TO. Play gets run, takes 6 seconds, ending in the field of play. Third down, 1:57 on the clock, clock stops for the two-minute warning.

2:03 on the clock, second and 19. Don't call TO. Two minute warning. Play gets run, takes 6 seconds, ending in the field of play. Call TO. Third down, 1:54 on the clock.

You didn't factor in the incompletion. The game situation was 2 and 15+. SF got a free pass to go for a first down. If you let it run to two minutes and they still throw, you're at 1:54 with an extra timeout in your pocket.

Along the same lines, why does Kaepernick run out of bounds on the next play saving NO a timeout?

You said, "Please post an example of how I could be wrong." I did.

The possibility of an incompletion is another factor. I don't think that Jim Harbaugh would hesistate to call a pass on second and 19, whether or not the TO was taken. The #1 thing the Niners need to do to win at that point is to get a first down.

You are correct. I should have been more specific about the situation to begin with.

If you believe Harbaugh is likely to call a pass regardless, you definately save the timeout.

 

[BassNBrew]

What none of the takes into consideration is the pressure of the moment. No matter what the pay scale is...each person reacts differently, although you'd think better with training and go over the situations multiple times in career.

We're talking a $9 billion dollar industry. These types of decisions have a huge impact on a franchises bottom line. If it's me, I hire some smart guy to manage the end game. In most industries, good companies will plug holes that might hinder there success. Imagine if a hospital operated like an NFL franchise.

 

[Doug B]

I thought the idea of Payton calling a TO at 2:03 was to force SF to run a play and burn a down earlier than they wanted to. That way, after the 2MW, SF only had 3rd and 4th downs with which to milk time off the clock. The game was 20-20 at that point, and while SF wanted to get in FG range ... they also wanted to do in a very specific way (with no time left for NO to rally back).

Without that 2:03 TO, SF could've used up 30+ seconds each on 2nd, 3rd, and 4th downs (where 4th down would've been a play-for-overtime punt). Didn't Payton, with that 2:03 TO, therefore save an extra 30 seconds or so for Brees & Co. to march down the field? Kaepernick's run out of bounds on 3rd down ended up just being gravy, but Payton didn't know in advance that CK was going to do that.

 

[Bobcat10]

I thought the idea of Payton calling a TO at 2:03 was to force SF to run a play and burn a down earlier than they wanted to. That way, after the 2MW, SF only had 3rd and 4th downs with which to milk time off the clock. The game was 20-20 at that point, and while SF wanted to get in FG range ... they also wanted to do in a very specific way (with no time left for NO to rally back).

Without that 2:03 TO, SF could've used up 30+ seconds each on 2nd, 3rd, and 4th downs (where 4th down would've been a play-for-overtime punt). Didn't Payton, with that 2:03 TO, therefore save an extra 30 seconds or so for Brees & Co. to march down the field? Kaepernick's run out of bounds on 3rd down ended up just being gravy, but Payton didn't know in advance that CK was going to do that.

Your 2nd paragraph has Payton eating the time out after the 2 min warning. That only happens if they give up a big gainer on 2nd and long.

 

[DaveL]

You're totally wrong about the Saints.

Please post an example of how I would be worng.

2:03 on the clock, second and 19. Call TO. Play gets run, takes 6 seconds, ending in the field of play. Third down, 1:57 on the clock, clock stops for the two-minute warning.

2:03 on the clock, second and 19. Don't call TO. Two minute warning. Play gets run, takes 6 seconds, ending in the field of play. Call TO. Third down, 1:54 on the clock.

CalBear has the right of it here. In terms of gametime, it's basically a wash. (not knowing this or immediately understanding it in a "coaches are idiots" rant is pretty funny.)The real micromanagement genius of Payton's call lies in the difference in _real_ time between the two. Hartley has been struggling mightily coming into the game (3 of last 7?). Payton knew he was basically going to ice his own kicker with a timeout, but the 2 min warn is longer than a timeout. So, by calling a timeout, he left his slumping kicker less time to think about how important the kick was...and how many easier kicks he's missed recently...and how many kickers they worked out this week...and.....

Ray's spot on here, Payton mentioned this after the game.

 

[DaveL]

1. Balt is driving on Chicago inside the 10 and Chicago doesn['t use it's timeouts. If Balt scores they win they game win chicago could have perserved a 1:30 to comeback.

I was thinking about this overnight. Trestman doesn't call a timeout, Ravens want to chew up the clock. So Harbaugh calls a run on 1st down, Ravens call a timeout. Another run on 2nd down, Ravens call their final timeout. Pass on 3rd down. Effectively by not calling a timeout, the Bears knew exactly, in terms of run/pass, what the Ravens were going to run. If Trestman calls his timeouts, Ravens can either pass or run on all 3 downs, 3rd down including.

It's up for debate if that was his thinking, but the Bears stuffed them all 3 times...

 

[Doug B]

Your 2nd paragraph has Payton eating the time out after the 2 min warning. That only happens if they give up a big gainer on 2nd and long.

You're right.

Somehow, making the 49ers run one more play before the warning seemed to make a lot of sense at the time. But I can't lay out the logic of why

Well, as someone pointed out above ... it might have saved a handful of seconds at the end. And the winning FG was kicked with :02 left, so ...

 

[JAMES!]

There was gamesmanship involved in the Payton TO before the 2 minute warning. Kaepernick was rattled and Payton is basically saying with that TO that he has no fear of SF moving the ball into field goal range. After the sack on first down and the TO, Kaepernick's mindset goes from trying to get into FG range and win the game to just not turning it over and losing the game. He's sending a message to his offense as well.

 

[LAUNCH]

You're totally wrong about the Saints.

Please post an example of how I would be worng.

2:03 on the clock, second and 19. Call TO. Play gets run, takes 6 seconds, ending in the field of play. Third down, 1:57 on the clock, clock stops for the two-minute warning.

2:03 on the clock, second and 19. Don't call TO. Two minute warning. Play gets run, takes 6 seconds, ending in the field of play. Call TO. Third down, 1:54 on the clock.

CalBear has the right of it here. In terms of gametime, it's basically a wash. (not knowing this or immediately understanding it in a "coaches are idiots" rant is pretty funny.)The real micromanagement genius of Payton's call lies in the difference in _real_ time between the two. Hartley has been struggling mightily coming into the game (3 of last 7?). Payton knew he was basically going to ice his own kicker with a timeout, but the 2 min warn is longer than a timeout. So, by calling a timeout, he left his slumping kicker less time to think about how important the kick was...and how many easier kicks he's missed recently...and how many kickers they worked out this week...and.....

I play a lot of Madden and a lot of NCAA. The correct call is not to call a TO in that given situation. The difference, as you have stated, was the kicker and that this was not Madden. He called the timeout, so they could beat the longer network timeout that would have happened at the 2:00 warning, and given his kicker less time think about where he's going to live next week if he misses.

 

[Warrior]

You're totally wrong about the Saints. You call the timeout before the 2 minute warning because the clock will automatically stop after the next play as well. There's no question it conserves the most time by calling the TO before. Anyone that has played any amount of Madden understands this. What's incredible is how often coaches actually screw this up and let the clock run down to the 2 minute warning.

Please post an example of how I would be worng.

You use timeouts when teams can run 35 seconds off the clock, not 3 seconds.

no

 

[BassNBrew]

1. Balt is driving on Chicago inside the 10 and Chicago doesn['t use it's timeouts. If Balt scores they win they game win chicago could have perserved a 1:30 to comeback.

I was thinking about this overnight. Trestman doesn't call a timeout, Ravens want to chew up the clock. So Harbaugh calls a run on 1st down, Ravens call a timeout. Another run on 2nd down, Ravens call their final timeout. Pass on 3rd down. Effectively by not calling a timeout, the Bears knew exactly, in terms of run/pass, what the Ravens were going to run. If Trestman calls his timeouts, Ravens can either pass or run on all 3 downs, 3rd down including.

It's up for debate if that was his thinking, but the Bears stuffed them all 3 times...

I'm not buying into the Trestman is a genius because he knew the move would mess with Baltimore's head.

Maybe Baltimore did screw it up, but if I was Baltimore I'd be perfectly happy with two runs and a pass play for the win (with the FG as the fallback) if I knew I wouldn't be giving Chicago any opportunity to mount a comeback.

 

[Doug B]

There was gamesmanship involved in the Payton TO before the 2 minute warning. Kaepernick was rattled and Payton is basically saying with that TO that he has no fear of SF moving the ball into field goal range. After the sack on first down and the TO, Kaepernick's mindset goes from trying to get into FG range and win the game to just not turning it over and losing the game. He's sending a message to his offense as well.

See, I can buy into this even if it wasn't an "off the card" time-out call. The math upthread seemed to indicate that game-clock-wise, the 2:03 TO was essentially neutral or even very slightly in N.O.'s favor. But I liked the idea of the 49ers being forced to run a play when they weren't necessarily expecting to have to do so. Nice mind game there.

 

[Bobcat10]

You're totally wrong about the Saints.

Please post an example of how I would be worng.

2:03 on the clock, second and 19. Call TO. Play gets run, takes 6 seconds, ending in the field of play. Third down, 1:57 on the clock, clock stops for the two-minute warning.

2:03 on the clock, second and 19. Don't call TO. Two minute warning. Play gets run, takes 6 seconds, ending in the field of play. Call TO. Third down, 1:54 on the clock.

CalBear has the right of it here. In terms of gametime, it's basically a wash. (not knowing this or immediately understanding it in a "coaches are idiots" rant is pretty funny.)The real micromanagement genius of Payton's call lies in the difference in _real_ time between the two. Hartley has been struggling mightily coming into the game (3 of last 7?). Payton knew he was basically going to ice his own kicker with a timeout, but the 2 min warn is longer than a timeout. So, by calling a timeout, he left his slumping kicker less time to think about how important the kick was...and how many easier kicks he's missed recently...and how many kickers they worked out this week...and.....

I play a lot of Madden and a lot of NCAA. The correct call is not to call a TO in that given situation. The difference, as you have stated, was the kicker and that this was not Madden. He called the timeout, so they could beat the longer network timeout that would have happened at the 2:00 warning, and given his kicker less time think about where he's going to live next week if he misses.

Am I the only one here that is not grasping what the heck you guys are talking about? SF had the ball and NO wanted the ball back. What does this have to do with NO's kicker?

 

[Ray]

You're totally wrong about the Saints.

Please post an example of how I would be worng.

2:03 on the clock, second and 19. Call TO. Play gets run, takes 6 seconds, ending in the field of play. Third down, 1:57 on the clock, clock stops for the two-minute warning.

2:03 on the clock, second and 19. Don't call TO. Two minute warning. Play gets run, takes 6 seconds, ending in the field of play. Call TO. Third down, 1:54 on the clock.

CalBear has the right of it here. In terms of gametime, it's basically a wash. (not knowing this or immediately understanding it in a "coaches are idiots" rant is pretty funny.)The real micromanagement genius of Payton's call lies in the difference in _real_ time between the two. Hartley has been struggling mightily coming into the game (3 of last 7?). Payton knew he was basically going to ice his own kicker with a timeout, but the 2 min warn is longer than a timeout. So, by calling a timeout, he left his slumping kicker less time to think about how important the kick was...and how many easier kicks he's missed recently...and how many kickers they worked out this week...and.....

I play a lot of Madden and a lot of NCAA. The correct call is not to call a TO in that given situation. The difference, as you have stated, was the kicker and that this was not Madden. He called the timeout, so they could beat the longer network timeout that would have happened at the 2:00 warning, and given his kicker less time think about where he's going to live next week if he misses.

Am I the only one here that is not grasping what the heck you guys are talking about? SF had the ball and NO wanted the ball back. What does this have to do with NO's kicker?

I was talking about the first TO at 2:11 which seemed like the weird one to me; to which OP's logic should also apply.

 

[DropKick]

You're totally wrong about the Saints. You call the timeout before the 2 minute warning because the clock will automatically stop after the next play as well. There's no question it conserves the most time by calling the TO before. Anyone that has played any amount of Madden understands this. What's incredible is how often coaches actually screw this up and let the clock run down to the 2 minute warning.

I think you're wrong about the Bears too. At least, I think it is debatable. Up by 3, it takes a TD to beat you, and by calling time-outs, you increase the odds they will get that TD by extending the game. Ballsy strategy but I like keeping pressure on the other offense.

I had more issue with the Lions not taking a short FG to go up 7 and Jim Harbaugh's challenge of a incomplete pass that was clearly dropped when the receiver went to the ground.

 

[dgreen]

For those of you defending Chicago, I assume you think Baltimore made a mistake in taking their time?

 

[False Start]

I put this in the Texans thread but thought this stupid quote of quotes belonged here too.

http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/2013/11/texans-will-start-case-keenum-vs-jaguars/

“Actually, I think I was really thinking of (Keenum) to be honest with you,” Kubiak said. “I’ve been in this league a long time and dealt with a lot of quarterbacks. I’m trying to develop one right now. Right or wrong, I made that decision because of the situation I thought I was fixing to put a young player in from my standpoint of what I was doing coaching wise. I don’t have time to explain that to y’all. That’s why I do what I did. He knows that. I talked to him about that.”

 

[DaveL]

For those of you defending Chicago, I assume you think Baltimore made a mistake in taking their time?

I think Baltimore made a mistake by caring more about the clock than scoring a TD. 2 rushes up the middle when the defense is stacked there? And by not having a timeout left on 3rd down, everyone knew it was pass...

 

[floydmoseby]

For those of you defending Chicago, I assume you think Baltimore made a mistake in taking their time?

I think Baltimore made a mistake by caring more about the clock than scoring a TD. 2 rushes up the middle when the defense is stacked there? And by not having a timeout left on 3rd down, everyone knew it was pass...

Trestman brought up that fact in an INCREDIBLY detailed explanation for not using the timeouts during his Monday presser. He was playing percentages the whole way apparently.

 

[BassNBrew]

You're totally wrong about the Saints. You call the timeout before the 2 minute warning because the clock will automatically stop after the next play as well. There's no question it conserves the most time by calling the TO before. Anyone that has played any amount of Madden understands this. What's incredible is how often coaches actually screw this up and let the clock run down to the 2 minute warning.

I think you're wrong about the Bears too. At least, I think it is debatable. Up by 3, it takes a TD to beat you, and by calling time-outs, you increase the odds they will get that TD by extending the game. Ballsy strategy but I like keeping pressure on the other offense.

I had more issue with the Lions not taking a short FG to go up 7 and Jim Harbaugh's challenge of a incomplete pass that was clearly dropped when the receiver went to the ground.

Baltimore was inside the 10 yard line. Short of a defensive penalty, the game was going to be 3 plays and then a FG if needed.

 

[cheese]

For those of you defending Chicago, I assume you think Baltimore made a mistake in taking their time?

I think Baltimore should have been ignoring the clock completely and trying to score a TD with whatever play calls would do that. I suspect they were calling plays to milk the clock, so yes I think they screwed up. If your most successful plays also keep the clock running, then I think they are right to run clock.

Along the same lines, if Chicago not calling a TO encourages Baltimore to just be predictable to milk time and settle for a FG, that is more important than anything you can do with the clock.