I learned something about the legal system (1 Viewer)

[Stealthycat]

I cannot remember whom I argued with on privilege's and the legal systems over the last few years - but I was wrong in a way on it and want to say how.

My 21 daughter was pulled over last Christmas for "following too close". She was driving my truck. That turned into a search her vehicle because of smell of marijuana and they found a pouch of drug paraphernalia and a bottle that had I think 3 Adderall pills in it.  She had no prescription for them. There was no marijuana in the car, she hadn't been smoking, wasn't under influence. Somehow, there was an escalation and confrontation and she was jailed. I got her out next morning.

I try not to be overbearing towards my kids, they're adults at 19 and 21, they can make their own choices, they NEED to make their own choices. She was 100% guilty of the charges. She was assigned a public defender and the court date was set for June. I can only tell you what she told me, and that was the public defender, a black man, never even reached out to her, she met/talked to him the day of the first court date and they entered a plea of not guilty and the second date was set. 

I went with her to the second date, and as she told it, the day before that second date her public defended called and literally say she could take 4 years probation plea or 1 year probation plea and a class D felony. Those were her options. 

Now my daughter doesn't have money, a 5th year senior in college. I'm not wealthy, I'm not even middle middle class I don't think but I did sell my house in March of this past year and had some money in the bank from that. I sked her what she wanted to do and she said get a lawyer. I agreed with her, those two options sucked for the offense she was charged with. So she told that public defended she wanted her own lawyer and her presented that to the judge - the very last case of the day he made her sit until ..... and the judge said next time I see you (to my daughter) you'd better have representation. 

I found a lawyer, and we went for consultation. He asked if this and this motion had been filed and my daughter said not that she knew but her public defended hadn't told her anything. He said $5,000 and he'd get those motions filed, he'd do the things needed to be done and he said 1 year probation was the goal to get the prosecutor to agree too. Daughter and I both agreed that was reasonable, I mean she was guilty. 

Let me inject this too - her boyfriend was murdered 18 months back, she had other pressures and she'd used those to get a Dr to prescribe her Adderall as well as get a medical marijuana card. 

4 weeks later, the lawyer called and said he'd viewed the camera footage of the arrest with the prosecutor I guess and they both agreed to drop all charges. 

Now to my point - had I not had that $5,000 to give to the lawyer, my daughter would have had years of probation or a felony conviction. I've argued time and again on black/white/color of skin privileged ..... this wasn't that and in fact, it might have actually been racism a bit towards the white college girl from the black public defender, I'll never know. 

What this REALLY was .... and is ..... is a wealth issue. I've always known wealth buys - and I'm ok with that too. People earn money, work hard, and that money buys things that people who don't work and don't have money can't get. That's fair in my world however, in our judicial system .... its not fair, its not right and its not everyone having a fair trial/treatment.

My money is what got my daughter off. Plain and simple. It wasn't that I'm white but that I worked and saved and had money. What about the 21 year old that had nobody to get the $5000 from? 

I blame the public defender - whatever our lawyer used/found out to have the charges dropped, he could have too. How often does that happen ?

I have a different view of the judicial system now is what I'm saying. I still don't see/believe it is slanted in a racism way, but it dang sure is in a monetary way 

 

[Sinn Fein]

Thatturned into a search her vehicle because of smell of marijuana and they found a pouch of drug paraphernalia and a bottle that had I think 3 Adderall pills in it.  She had no prescription for them. 

***

Let me inject this too - her boyfriend was murdered 18 months back, she had other pressures and she'd used those to get a Dr to prescribe her Adderall as well as get a medical marijuana card. 

 

[identikit]

Where'd the marijuana smell come from, bro?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Where'd the marijuana smell come from, bro?

I'm pretty sure a Venn diagram of "Cops who pull over a college-aged person for following too closely" and "Cops who smell marijuana so we better search the vehicle" is a single circle.

The issue here to me is not so much the public defender as it is the cop.  This sounds like a pretextual search that turned up a trivial violation that should never have gone on anybody's record in the first place.

 

[Grace Under Pressure]

What this REALLY was .... and is ..... is a wealth issue. I've always known wealth buys - and I'm ok with that too. People earn money, work hard, and that money buys things that people who don't work and don't have money can't get. That's fair in my world however, in our judicial system .... its not fair, its not right and its not everyone having a fair trial/treatment.

I have a different view of the judicial system now is what I'm saying. I still don't see/believe it is slanted in a racism way, but it dang sure is in a monetary way 

Thanks for sharing SC. Tend to agree. The system sure seems different for those with money and that isn't fair. 

 

[Zow]

When I have the time I'll respond to this at length. This is an issue near to me as I used to be a public defender and now am one of the defense attorneys people pay significant sums to. In short, there's more to this but this story is also not that terribly uncommon. 

 

[Godsbrother]

Thanks for sharing this story and I agree that it really came down to being able to afford good counsel. 

I suppose the reality is that many public defenders either aren't very good, too busy or simply don't care.   In any case I am glad that you were able to get the charges dropped and I hope your daughter appreciates what you did and has learned from her mistake.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Money doesn't just talk, it also lets you walk.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

When I have the time I'll respond to this at length. This is an issue near to me as I used to be a public defender and now am one of the defense attorneys people pay significant sums to. In short, there's more to this but this story is also not that terribly uncommon. 

No joke, I was actually reading the OP and thinking to myself "I'd love to hear what Zow has to say about this."  Looking forward to it when you get an opportunity.

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

I suppose the reality is that many public defenders either aren't very good, too busy or simply don't care.   In any case I am glad that you were able to get the charges dropped and I hope your daughter appreciates what you did and has learned from her mistake.

That was my immediate reaction to the story as well. I'm not a lawyer, don't know any public defenders, etc., but my general impression is that they're completely overworked, underpaid, and under a lot of pressure to clear their caseloads. I would also imagine that a job like that makes you very cynical; you see the same types of cases over and over and so you start to make assumptions: college kid pulled over, drug paraphernalia, she's probably guilty. As much as we'd all love to think of public defenders as idealistic crusaders for justice who find ways to free innocent people from prosecutorial overreach, the reality is they're often just one more pawn on the chessboard.

Anyway, thanks for sharing the story. I'm glad your daughter was able to get the charges dropped; even if it's unfair that so many others aren't so lucky, that doesn't mean she should have to suffer unjustly to even the playing field.

One other thing: you're right that this story shows the way the system is biased based on class and wealth, rather than racism. But I would urge you to zoom out a little and consider something: If other aspects of the criminal justice system are more slanted based on race -- for example, if police are more likely to arrest a black person than they are a white person who committed the same crime -- then that would mean we're feeding more black people into the judicial system, where they are then subject to the biases you've identified. So even if the intent here is not impacted by racism, the effect still may be.

I don't pretend there are easy answers to these questions. This is a huge system that has so many different points of failure. The only thing we can do is work to mitigate as many bad aspects of it as we can. (I was about to say "without sacrificing public safety", but that implies there's always a zero-sum trade-off between fairness and effectiveness, which I don't believe is true. In fact, I think there are many criminal justice reforms that would simultaneously make us safer.)

 

[Snotbubbles]

My first impression is the PD probably had a large case load of much more serious offenses and if the DA is only asking for a 4-year probation plea why spend a bunch of time and resources you already don't have to try and get the charges dropped when he might have other clients who are facing years in jail.      

 

[dkp993]

While racism still exists and sometimes plays a role in our justice system, green is and always has been the defining color.  

 

[CletiusMaximus]

I have a different view of the judicial system now is what I'm saying. I still don't see/believe it is slanted in a racism way, but it dang sure is in a monetary way 

Thanks for sharing.  With this conclusion, I think you're halfway to having eyes fully open.

 

[Stealthycat]

Where'd the marijuana smell come from, bro?

her clothes? she smokes marijuana like 1 in 3 college students do

my point was .... without my $5000 she'd have either had a 4 year probation or a 1 year probation and felony D

for people who don't know ... she couldn't live with me with a probation - I have guns and that's a no no. Leaving the state would be much harder - and upon graduation she's absolutely leaving. Also, any roommates would have to be squeaky clean. Her marijuana card would be in question as well. LOTS of things come with probation

this isn't so much about what I think she should have gotten as far as punishment or that she was guilty

this is about the difference in someone having $5000 getting totally off vs someone not having $5000 getting a felony/probation or just lengthy probation

that's a clear indicator that the judicial system isn't fair at all - and once that realization is understood, what kind of faith in the system is left ? 

 

[Stealthycat]

Thanks for sharing.  With this conclusion, I think you're halfway to having eyes fully open.

I know 50 years ago prejudice influenced the judicial system

How much does it now? I mean that black public defender could have shoved the 21 year old white girl's file to the side because he was racist just as easy right ?

I'll tell ya'll something else too .... there was a young black man - collared shirt, belt, dress shorts ... and the judge berated him and told him to leave and never come back into that court dressed inappropriately. I was like wow - tough rules but ok, his court, his rules. Then a black woman comes in front of him ... no bra, silver glittery skulls on her too tight shirt, jeans that looked like she'd been in a fight with a pack of pit bulls and they'd eaten her jeans for breakfast ... and he said nothing about her dress

that pissed me off - be fair and equal or keep mouth shut is what I wanted to tell that judge 

 

[Stealthycat]

When I have the time I'll respond to this at length. This is an issue near to me as I used to be a public defender and now am one of the defense attorneys people pay significant sums to. In short, there's more to this but this story is also not that terribly uncommon. 

yes, I'd be interested to hear your take

another tidbit  - the police told my daughter they knew certain medical information that was private - lawyer said yes, police have access to medical records? I never knew that either. 

 

[Zow]

yes, I'd be interested to hear your take

another tidbit  - the police told my daughter they knew certain medical information that was private - lawyer said yes, police have access to medical records? I never knew that either. 

I want to put the time into it so I'll give my overall take when I can. 

As to the bold though, I'm not sure what specifically that means. Generally, law enforcement doesn't just have unfettered access to a person's medical records. However, the cop may be suggesting, and the lawyer affirming, that in order to defend the case the defendant would need to produce medical records to show she validly possessed the items. Alternatively, they could be referring to general subpoena power. Finally, there could be some specific law in your jurisdiction on point that is unique to the issue that most wouldn't be aware of. 

 

[glvsav37]

to add to this, the bail issue of money playing a huge role in the system is another big concern. I am not in favor of the current "just let them out" reform going on here in NY, but the current bail structure needs to seriously be revised.

If you cant come up with bail, you can sit in waiting for years for your case to come around. By then you surely lost your job, your family lost at least 1 if not the only income, and a parent is absent. Guilty or not, I use to be one of those "comply and defend yourself in court" but I can understand why some people would opt to run rather than trying to deal with a legal system they cant afford. 

There was a good Vice documentary I saw that highlights some of the issues. The point that stood out to me the most was the Bail and a Business effect. They have whole neighborhoods where the bail office is visited more than the local deli. There was one woman who owened a BB office who was everythnig that is wrong with the system. Her whole things was "F you...pay me" and you can tell how being indebted to her would cause more pain then being arrested. 

 

[Snotbubbles]

her clothes? she smokes marijuana like 1 in 3 college students do

my point was .... without my $5000 she'd have either had a 4 year probation or a 1 year probation and felony D

for people who don't know ... she couldn't live with me with a probation - I have guns and that's a no no. Leaving the state would be much harder - and upon graduation she's absolutely leaving. Also, any roommates would have to be squeaky clean. Her marijuana card would be in question as well. LOTS of things come with probation

this isn't so much about what I think she should have gotten as far as punishment or that she was guilty

this is about the difference in someone having $5000 getting totally off vs someone not having $5000 getting a felony/probation or just lengthy probation

that's a clear indicator that the judicial system isn't fair at all - and once that realization is understood, what kind of faith in the system is left ? 

I'm surprised that you think the justice system is unfair because the guy you paid did a better job than the guy you didn't pay.  You never even consider other elements at play, just money.  

 

[Stealthycat]

I want to put the time into it so I'll give my overall take when I can. 

As to the bold though, I'm not sure what specifically that means. Generally, law enforcement doesn't just have unfettered access to a person's medical records. However, the cop may be suggesting, and the lawyer affirming, that in order to defend the case the defendant would need to produce medical records to show she validly possessed the items. Alternatively, they could be referring to general subpoena power. Finally, there could be some specific law in your jurisdiction on point that is unique to the issue that most wouldn't be aware of. 

sent you a message

 

[Stealthycat]

I'm surprised that you think the justice system is unfair because the guy you paid did a better job than the guy you didn't pay.  You never even consider other elements at play, just money.  

I am too actually

I thought our judicial system was somewhat fair - I know ultra rich can buy their way but I thought at a more local level, public defenders actually tried to defend

 

[dkp993]

that's a clear indicator that the judicial system isn't fair at all - and once that realization is understood, what kind of faith in the system is left ? 

I hope this works out for you and your family, I truly do. But this is exactly what I and others have argued with you about countless times and ultimately what leads to a frustrating conversation with you. What you’ve hopefully gained from this experience is perspective. Ones own perspective coupled with the ability to understand, and hopefully see, other perspectives often leads a better informed opinion. The first one you have a strong grasp of, but imo based on our interactions the second has not been an area of strength.  Maybe this experience changes that.  

 

[CletiusMaximus]

I am too actually

I thought our judicial system was somewhat fair - I know ultra rich can buy their way but I thought at a more local level, public defenders actually tried to defend

I'll wait to hear what @Woz says, but I think its less a matter of competence and more a matter of a massive caseload and generally soul-crushing work.  As with any profession, there are likely a number of unskilled, inexperienced or incompetent lawyers in every office.  For the most part however, I think it is totally normal that the very first time the lawyer meets the client/defendant is at or just before the initial hearing.  Prosecutors are also swamped, so while they are adversarial, they also depend on working together to reach fair outcomes quickly based on limited information.  No one has the time or the resources to really prosecute or meaningfully defend every case that comes through their office. That's partly the reason why investing some money on the defense side not only gets more attention put on your case, but also signals to the prosecution that they will have to do some work, meaning they likely drop their demands as well as you experienced.  Add to this that the clients these public defenders get are almost always totally guilty, and typically completely unappreciative.  My friends who worked as PDs say their clients are more often outright hostile to them, rather than trying to work together on their defense.  I think you have to really love criminal defense work to stick with it at that level.  Finally, the pay is not great.  In the rural part of my state, which is almost the entire northern half of the state, there are no public defenders.  Private lawyers serve on a panel but have discretion whether to take a case or not.  The pay is so low and the work sucks so bad, the local courts often cannot find anyone to defend indigent defendants.  Its a huge issue right now in our state.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

to add to this, the bail issue of money playing a huge role in the system is another big concern. I am not in favor of the current "just let them out" reform going on here in NY, but the current bail structure needs to seriously be revised.

If you cant come up with bail, you can sit in waiting for years for your case to come around. By then you surely lost your job, your family lost at least 1 if not the only income, and a parent is absent. Guilty or not, I use to be one of those "comply and defend yourself in court" but I can understand why some people would opt to run rather than trying to deal with a legal system they cant afford. 

There was a good Vice documentary I saw that highlights some of the issues. The point that stood out to me the most was the Bail and a Business effect. They have whole neighborhoods where the bail office is visited more than the local deli. There was one woman who owened a BB office who was everythnig that is wrong with the system. Her whole things was "F you...pay me" and you can tell how being indebted to her would cause more pain then being arrested. 

This point is well-illustrated in the Kyle Rittenhouse murder/self-defense case pending in Wisconsin.  Because his case is politicized, his initial lawyers were able to raise over $2mil for a defense fund.  That not only got him out on bail, which is extremely important to his well-being and to his ability to present a defense, but it has afforded him excellent legal defense he would otherwise not have.  Absent that money, he'd probably already be serving a long sentence rather than heading toward a trial next month that he may well win.

 

[glvsav37]

This point is well-illustrated in the Kyle Rittenhouse murder/self-defense case pending in Wisconsin.  Because his case is politicized, his initial lawyers were able to raise over $2mil for a defense fund.  That not only got him out on bail, which is extremely important to his well-being and to his ability to present a defense, but it has afforded him excellent legal defense he would otherwise not have.  Absent that money, he'd probably already be serving a long sentence rather than heading toward a trial next month that he may well win.

thats a solid example, but he's technically a kid too.

Where unattainable bail really hurts is when the accused person has a family they are supporting and now is stuck in jail waiting for the system to get to them. Most likely they would have no assets or savings, their job is often something that is easily replaceable and there is no way to support the family while he/she waits, rent gets backed up, car gets repo'ed, insurance laps, etc.  Worse if they are a single parent and the burden of raising the children falls on others. This could effect the generations if the wait is long enough. Lack of stability can let kids fall into problems with education, gangs, drugs, etc, and that arrest puts the next generation possibly in an even harder spot, well behind their parents. 

 

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

I'll wait to hear what @Woz says, but I think its less a matter of competence and more a matter of a massive caseload and generally soul-crushing work. 

My immediate thought was has no one ever seen "...And Justice For All"?

 

[Zow]

I'll wait to hear what @Woz says, but I think its less a matter of competence and more a matter of a massive caseload and generally soul-crushing work.  As with any profession, there are likely a number of unskilled, inexperienced or incompetent lawyers in every office.  For the most part however, I think it is totally normal that the very first time the lawyer meets the client/defendant is at or just before the initial hearing.  Prosecutors are also swamped, so while they are adversarial, they also depend on working together to reach fair outcomes quickly based on limited information.  No one has the time or the resources to really prosecute or meaningfully defend every case that comes through their office. That's partly the reason why investing some money on the defense side not only gets more attention put on your case, but also signals to the prosecution that they will have to do some work, meaning they likely drop their demands as well as you experienced.  Add to this that the clients these public defenders get are almost always totally guilty, and typically completely unappreciative.  My friends who worked as PDs say their clients are more often outright hostile to them, rather than trying to work together on their defense.  I think you have to really love criminal defense work to stick with it at that level.  Finally, the pay is not great.  In the rural part of my state, which is almost the entire northern half of the state, there are no public defenders.  Private lawyers serve on a panel but have discretion whether to take a case or not.  The pay is so low and the work sucks so bad, the local courts often cannot find anyone to defend indigent defendants.  Its a huge issue right now in our state.

Some good stuff here.  The bold especially. 

 

[The General]

One of the better threads in this place in awhile. Good stuff.

 

[-fish-]

thats a solid example, but he's technically a kid too.

Where unattainable bail really hurts is when the accused person has a family they are supporting and now is stuck in jail waiting for the system to get to them. Most likely they would have no assets or savings, their job is often something that is easily replaceable and there is no way to support the family while he/she waits, rent gets backed up, car gets repo'ed, insurance laps, etc.  Worse if they are a single parent and the burden of raising the children falls on others. This could effect the generations if the wait is long enough. Lack of stability can let kids fall into problems with education, gangs, drugs, etc, and that arrest puts the next generation possibly in an even harder spot, well behind their parents. 

 

Cash bail is a major problem and needs reform.   

 

[Stealthycat]

Cash bail is a major problem and needs reform.   

what would you suggest that would be fair and equal to all ?

 

[Navin Johnson]

While racism still exists and sometimes plays a role in our justice system, green is and always has been the defining color.  

It's not who you know...

 

[Roger Sterling]

I cannot remember whom I argued with on privilege's and the legal systems over the last few years - but I was wrong in a way on it and want to say how.

My 21 daughter was pulled over last Christmas for "following too close". She was driving my truck. That turned into a search her vehicle because of smell of marijuana and they found a pouch of drug paraphernalia and a bottle that had I think 3 Adderall pills in it.  She had no prescription for them. There was no marijuana in the car, she hadn't been smoking, wasn't under influence. Somehow, there was an escalation and confrontation and she was jailed. I got her out next morning.

Let me inject this too - her boyfriend was murdered 18 months back, she had other pressures and she'd used those to get a Dr to prescribe her Adderall as well as get a medical marijuana card.  

Was this not mentioned to the PD?

 

[Stealthycat]

Was this not mentioned to the PD?

PD after the arrest doesn't care about the case - the Judge isn't going to sit and listen unless there is a jury trial. Public defender wasn't going to try and use that information to get a lesser sentence. 

That's actually what our lawyer said - literally he said I'm a bully in the courtroom. Covid has led to an already crowded system. He said no WAY does the judge/prosecuting attorney want a jury trial and he said he would ask for that and get it if push comes to shove. He said just that threat makes them plea bargain. Public defender was never going to do that for my daughter

all the things our lawyer did the public defender could have - just didn't - and THAT is the startling fact I took from it all

 

[Roger Sterling]

PD after the arrest doesn't care about the case - the Judge isn't going to sit and listen unless there is a jury trial. Public defender wasn't going to try and use that information to get a lesser sentence. 

That's actually what our lawyer said - literally he said I'm a bully in the courtroom. Covid has led to an already crowded system. He said no WAY does the judge/prosecuting attorney want a jury trial and he said he would ask for that and get it if push comes to shove. He said just that threat makes them plea bargain. Public defender was never going to do that for my daughter

all the things our lawyer did the public defender could have - just didn't - and THAT is the startling fact I took from it all

I don't understand. The prescriptions get her off.

 

[Zow]

PD after the arrest doesn't care about the case - the Judge isn't going to sit and listen unless there is a jury trial. Public defender wasn't going to try and use that information to get a lesser sentence. 

That's actually what our lawyer said - literally he said I'm a bully in the courtroom. Covid has led to an already crowded system. He said no WAY does the judge/prosecuting attorney want a jury trial and he said he would ask for that and get it if push comes to shove. He said just that threat makes them plea bargain. Public defender was never going to do that for my daughter

all the things our lawyer did the public defender could have - just didn't - and THAT is the startling fact I took from it all

Still haven't forgotten about this thread. I intend to provide some lengthy thoughts when I can. 

 

[Stealthycat]

I don't understand. The prescriptions get her off.

no, the charges were pre-prescription ... she got them after the arrest

make no mistake, she was 100% guilty of having pills and drug paraphernalia ...  and had she stuch with public defender she'd have multi-year probation or shorter probation and a class D felony

$5000 to a lawyer and she's off 100% 

 

[E Street Brat]

her public defended called and literally say she could take 4 years probation plea or 1 year probation plea and a class D felony. Those were her options. 

Are you telling me your daughter didn't know, a jury trial was an option? 

Was this not mentioned to the PD?

PD after the arrest doesn't care about the case - the Judge isn't going to sit and listen unless there is a jury trial. Public defender wasn't going to try and use that information to get a lesser sentence. 

Calls for speculation. Answer the question. Did your daughter tell and provide proof a prescription?

If a person doesn't participate in their own defense then "production line justice" is what they will receive. 

 

[Ruffrodys05]

Still haven't forgotten about this thread. I intend to provide some lengthy thoughts when I can. 

I'm waiting with anticipated breath......seriously, I want to know your thoughts here Woz.

 

[Stealthycat]

Are you telling me your daughter didn't know, a jury trial was an option? 

the public defender never gave that an option 

Calls for speculation. Answer the question. Did your daughter tell and provide proof a prescription?

If a person doesn't participate in their own defense then "production line justice" is what they will receive. 

the public defender didn't care about the legal prescriptions for ADD pills and marijuana after the face, never presented them to the prosecuting attorney, never conveyed any attempts at all to do anything that a hired lawyer did

do you see what I'm saying?  without that $5000 and a lawyer, she had limited options because her public defender had no interest in trying to get her a plea deal, much less getting the case dropped. Maybe he was racist, I'm not sure, but he seemed very indifferent of her when I saw him in the courtroom

 

[E Street Brat]

the public defender never gave that an option 

the public defender didn't care about the legal prescriptions for ADD pills and marijuana after the face, never presented them to the prosecuting attorney, never conveyed any attempts at all to do anything that a hired lawyer did

do you see what I'm saying?  without that $5000 and a lawyer, she had limited options because her public defender had no interest in trying to get her a plea deal, much less getting the case dropped. Maybe he was racist, I'm not sure, but he seemed very indifferent of her when I saw him in the courtroom

I just caught that in your post above.   My guess would be not racist, just another file folder that needed to be moved from one stack to the other. 

 

[Zow]

the public defender never gave that an option 

the public defender didn't care about the legal prescriptions for ADD pills and marijuana after the face, never presented them to the prosecuting attorney, never conveyed any attempts at all to do anything that a hired lawyer did

do you see what I'm saying?  without that $5000 and a lawyer, she had limited options because her public defender had no interest in trying to get her a plea deal, much less getting the case dropped. Maybe he was racist, I'm not sure, but he seemed very indifferent of her when I saw him in the courtroom

Respectfully, were you present for her conversation with the public defender?

 

[Zow]

I'm waiting with anticipated breath......seriously, I want to know your thoughts here Woz.

I know i know. I want to give them as this thread still eats at me. Working on something with a deadline today and if I can finish it timely today I should be able to provide a lengthy response. 

 

[E Street Brat]

I know i know. I want to give them as this thread still eats at me. Working on something with a deadline today and if I can finish it timely today I should be able to provide a lengthy response. 

For Christ sake just plead the case out, and get in here already. 

May I suggest  4 years probation plea or 1 year probation plea and a class D felony. Those are your options. 

 

[Stealthycat]

Respectfully, were you present for her conversation with the public defender?

I wasn't - as I understand it, she met the guy on the day of her 1st appearance and he told her to plead not guilty, she did, they scheduled appearance #2 and that's all that was. No discussion, no counsel, nothing.

She emailed him her circumstances - boyfriend murdered, medical issues, parents bitterly divorcing ... and explaining she had (after the arrest) got prescriptions for the ADHD medicine and Marijuana. As I understand it, there was no response in any way until the day before her second date. that's when she called and said hey, this public defended said it was either class D and 1 year prob or 4 years prob. That was all that was said. On the day of her second appearance I went to support her and just straight up said hey, if you don't want either of those options, then tell him you want your own lawyer and I'll help

She's 21 now - I try to stay out of her life and my son's too, only advising and helping. That was my advice, she took it. Judge wasn't happy but he allowed it and said 3rd court date set and she'd better have a lawyer.

They made her wait until we were the last 2 people in the courtroom to discuss it. 

I suppose my daughter could be lying but she really has no reason to. What I know is what I was told, the feel I got in the courtroom from the public defender, what our lawyer said etc

 

[JAA]

I cannot remember whom I argued with on privilege's and the legal systems over the last few years - but I was wrong in a way on it and want to say how.

My 21 daughter was pulled over last Christmas for "following too close". She was driving my truck. That turned into a search her vehicle because of smell of marijuana and they found a pouch of drug paraphernalia and a bottle that had I think 3 Adderall pills in it.  She had no prescription for them. There was no marijuana in the car, she hadn't been smoking, wasn't under influence. Somehow, there was an escalation and confrontation and she was jailed. I got her out next morning.

I try not to be overbearing towards my kids, they're adults at 19 and 21, they can make their own choices, they NEED to make their own choices. She was 100% guilty of the charges. She was assigned a public defender and the court date was set for June. I can only tell you what she told me, and that was the public defender, a black man, never even reached out to her, she met/talked to him the day of the first court date and they entered a plea of not guilty and the second date was set. 

I went with her to the second date, and as she told it, the day before that second date her public defended called and literally say she could take 4 years probation plea or 1 year probation plea and a class D felony. Those were her options. 

Now my daughter doesn't have money, a 5th year senior in college. I'm not wealthy, I'm not even middle middle class I don't think but I did sell my house in March of this past year and had some money in the bank from that. I sked her what she wanted to do and she said get a lawyer. I agreed with her, those two options sucked for the offense she was charged with. So she told that public defended she wanted her own lawyer and her presented that to the judge - the very last case of the day he made her sit until ..... and the judge said next time I see you (to my daughter) you'd better have representation. 

I found a lawyer, and we went for consultation. He asked if this and this motion had been filed and my daughter said not that she knew but her public defended hadn't told her anything. He said $5,000 and he'd get those motions filed, he'd do the things needed to be done and he said 1 year probation was the goal to get the prosecutor to agree too. Daughter and I both agreed that was reasonable, I mean she was guilty. 

Let me inject this too - her boyfriend was murdered 18 months back, she had other pressures and she'd used those to get a Dr to prescribe her Adderall as well as get a medical marijuana card. 

4 weeks later, the lawyer called and said he'd viewed the camera footage of the arrest with the prosecutor I guess and they both agreed to drop all charges. 

Now to my point - had I not had that $5,000 to give to the lawyer, my daughter would have had years of probation or a felony conviction. I've argued time and again on black/white/color of skin privileged ..... this wasn't that and in fact, it might have actually been racism a bit towards the white college girl from the black public defender, I'll never know. 

What this REALLY was .... and is ..... is a wealth issue. I've always known wealth buys - and I'm ok with that too. People earn money, work hard, and that money buys things that people who don't work and don't have money can't get. That's fair in my world however, in our judicial system .... its not fair, its not right and its not everyone having a fair trial/treatment.

My money is what got my daughter off. Plain and simple. It wasn't that I'm white but that I worked and saved and had money. What about the 21 year old that had nobody to get the $5000 from? 

I blame the public defender - whatever our lawyer used/found out to have the charges dropped, he could have too. How often does that happen ?

I have a different view of the judicial system now is what I'm saying. I still don't see/believe it is slanted in a racism way, but it dang sure is in a monetary way 

Sorry im late to this thread, catching up.

First - I wanted to say thank you for posting this

Second - I completely agree with you.  I also believe we have a wealth issue in this country.  This issue creates opportunity barriers for the poor.  Unfortunately today, the majority of the poor are minorities, which in my opinion, leads us down the path of critical race theory as a part of our countries socioeconomics.

Thank you for sharing

 

[Stealthycat]

Sorry im late to this thread, catching up.

First - I wanted to say thank you for posting this

Second - I completely agree with you.  I also believe we have a wealth issue in this country.  This issue creates opportunity barriers for the poor.  Unfortunately today, the majority of the poor are minorities, which in my opinion, leads us down the path of critical race theory as a part of our countries socioeconomics.

Thank you for sharing

I can see the dots but I just don't believe in today's world they connect anymore - money = getting lawyers = getting better legal defense than public defenders give - and I mean MUCH better even with the simplest of cases. 

Anybody can have money - get jobs, make good decisions, work hard, save ..... that's not brown/black/white anymore in any way, shape or form

no critical race theory, no whites are holding blacks back etc and in fact, we have many rules/restrictions etc in place that hinders white people - if there is anything racist right now that can be looked at and pointed to - its racism vs whites

I can't prove this black public defender was racist against my white college daughter - but he sure didn't give a damn to help and if it had been an old fat white public defender and a young black college Sr ?  You can be racism would have been mentioned and even generally accepted

Seriously - turn this entire story around and its a young black person being totally ignored by the white public defender - you'd call it racism to some degree wouldn't ya ?

 

[The General]

I can see the dots but I just don't believe in today's world they connect anymore - money = getting lawyers = getting better legal defense than public defenders give - and I mean MUCH better even with the simplest of cases. 

Anybody can have money - get jobs, make good decisions, work hard, save ..... that's not brown/black/white anymore in any way, shape or form

no critical race theory, no whites are holding blacks back etc and in fact, we have many rules/restrictions etc in place that hinders white people - if there is anything racist right now that can be looked at and pointed to - its racism vs whites

I can't prove this black public defender was racist against my white college daughter - but he sure didn't give a damn to help and if it had been an old fat white public defender and a young black college Sr ?  You can be racism would have been mentioned and even generally accepted

Seriously - turn this entire story around and its a young black person being totally ignored by the white public defender - you'd call it racism to some degree wouldn't ya ?

I'd guess this happens all the time. The system is stretched thin. 

Good luck to your daughter.

 

[dkp993]

no critical race theory, no whites are holding blacks back etc and in fact, we have many rules/restrictions etc in place that hinders white people - if there is anything racist right now that can be looked at and pointed to - its racism vs whites

I have no intention of turning this into a thread on race, there’s plenty of those.  But I would just propose that you open yourself up to the possibility you might not be right.

Just like your previous preconceived notion of fairness in the Justice system has been challenged and changed due to your recent experience, be open to the idea your current view on racism could change if you were of color and had a different experiences in life then you currently have.   

 

[Stealthycat]

I have no intention of turning this into a thread on race, there’s plenty of those.  But I would just propose that you open yourself up to the possibility you might not be right.

Just like your previous preconceived notion of fairness in the Justice system has been challenged and changed due to your recent experience, be open to the idea your current view on racism could change if you were of color and had a different experiences in life then you currently have.   

I have

a lot

there are many rules/restrictions that favor other skin colors over others right now in the USA either through quota's or exclusions or special treatments etc

you are right

I've always known big money wins in legal cases - I did not think public defenders were what her turned out to be. Maybe this was rare? Maybe he was a racist and treated my daughter accordingly? I don't know - I know that $5000 was the cost/difference in what appeared to be a choice in no charges or probation/felony please

Wealth mattered - and maybe you're right ... maybe her skin color did too 

 

[jon_mx]

I am guessing when the watched the footage they saw the search was conducted illegally.