If Jalen Hurts Gets 100+ Rushing Touchdowns = Hall of Fame? (3 Viewers)

[Todem]

So you are telling me if Trent Dilfer, Jeff Hosteler etc win 2 SB they would have been HOF’s?

Come on man.

I was actually very specific in the post you quoted saying 2 rings PLUS being “an integral part of their offense” - e.g. Not just a Dilfer playing well enough not lose while the team carried him.

And adding 45 Rushing TD to his resume, while continuing to play at a high level.

Context is a thing that exists. @Ray_T was responding to the context of my post in this case, so I actually don’t think he was saying that, no.

He needs 5 more years of high level play……no doubt.

I am skeptical is does that though. Not a big fan.

 

[oldmanhawkins]

Well, that's the problem with running QBS - they run because they can't pass really good.

That is not always the case. some running QB can also throw. But playing as an actual drop back passer is (stylistically at least) a different skillset. Not everyone can make the transition.

and yes, some runnning QB cannot cut it as a drop back passer because they really are not great at throwing the football. their running opened up the pass game in a way that being a drop back passer does not.

That does not mean that they cannot throw the ball. but the reads are definitely different and the way you play the game is different. new skillsets need to be developed. such as the art of throwing someone open. the art of a timing pattern. these are tools you can get by without because when defenders see you threatening to run with the football, they will sometimes leave the guy they are covering to try to make the tackle on the QB and then the throw comes and the WR is wide open. so the need to rely on these other tools is not there.

Not everyone can make that transition successfully.

the other reason a lot of running QB dont have long careers is because they take a lot more hits than the drop back passer. those extra hits take a large toll on the body. lots of those guys start to get injured a lot in the later years. Donovan McNabb, Cam Newton are two who were successful but whose bodies broke down before they even hit 30. then there are a few who only had a couple years.... RGIII for example. and once you get to a point where you cannot stay healthy, you become a backup QB or just retire.

Very well said, Ray.

Pretty much supplements my feelings on the issue as well. From a pure fantasy perspective, running QBs are fantasy gold but in real life I would think that teams investing so much $$$$ into the QB position would take it seriously and choose long-term position stability instead of the short-term adrenaline shot. The contracts nowadays are huge and I think risking that on a running QB is foolish, but that's just my opinion.

Here were the top 4 QBs in rush attempts last season: Jalen Hurts, Jayden Daniels, Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson.

So to recap, last season, Hurts was Super Bowl MVP. Daniels was offensive rookie of the year. Allen was league MVP. Jackson was a 1st team all-pro. 3 of the 4 were the starting QBs in their conference championship games.

"Tis better to be silent, and thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."

Then I suggest you remain silent, because your "analysis" here is lazy and doesn't take in the context of a career. You're looking at a ONE YEAR sample and extrapolating that to what myself and @Ray_T were talking about, in general, of most running QBs over a career.

Are there some exceptions to the rule? Sure, but of the guys YOU mentioned, we don't know that yet and, of course, they would be EXCEPTIONS to the rule, not the rule.

McNabb was a case of a running QB who could throw the ball.

but his career was cut short. My belief is that this was due to injuries. he was mostly done by 30. he had one good, healthy year at age 31 (might have been 32)

he only had a fully healthy season once after the year 2005. I should know. he was my keeper QB in my keeper league at the time. he missed a lot of time and there were games where he played, but likely shouldnt have because he just wasnt himself. dont get me wrong. I'm a big fan of his. love him as a player. one of the best fantasy QB of his era due to the rush yards.

he was brought up, not because he couldnt throw the ball. but because he was a running QB who could. and his career was not especially long. Not due to his inability to throw. but his inability to stay healthy. This is (in my opinion) an increased risk with any running QB simply by means of the fact that they take a whole lot more hits than your typical drop back QB.

Again, good post. And certainly part of the problem of being a running QB is the shortened career due to injuries from all that running. This all points to the problem, though, which is long term stability at a position that requires it. Of course, I'm a spoiled Packers fan whose been blessed with only 3 non-running QBs over the span of 33 years and counting. It just seems like a no-brainer to go for stability over short-term gain considering the size of these GUARANTEED contracts.

Just my thoughts.

Tis a good subject of another thread, but you are blessed with legit candidate for a top 5 worst QB contract.
1. Watson (no question)
2. Cousins
3. Tua
4. Dak
5. Love
6. Murray
7. Purdy
8. TLaw

To be fair, Carr would have taken #4

 

[Joe Bryant]

1. I did not call you a racist, but we can’t see that because you reported the post and it was deleted.

He was talking about a QB and running and you dropped down to "It’s disrespectful if not outright racist."

Don't do that here.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

7. Purdy

Purdy’s contract seems perfectly in line with what starting QBs are getting. In light of the cap increasing, in a few years it’ll look like a bargain.

He’s played at a very high level when his team was healthy, and has won high pressure and playoff games with cagey play with his arm & legs.

TJ Housh said he thought he was overpaid, and when asked what he should have been paid, he said “$47M” - that just sounds silly. If you’re gonna pay him $47M might as well pay $53M

He’s hardly the highest paid QB in the NFL. I don’t see why he’s on this list. At the very least, maybe afford him the time to show whether he’s overpaid or not.

What most aren’t noting is that it doesn’t kick in until next year, so it’s slightly better in that light.

But given that he hasn’t played a single down on that new contract, it seems misguided to say he’s overpaid or has a bad contract. We can’t possibly know that until he’s played games under it. If he comes out and poops the bed, ok - he’s overpaid. But if he keeps winning games & going to the playoffs, that contract will seem just fine.

 

[Snotbubbles]

Well, that's the problem with running QBS - they run because they can't pass really good.

That is not always the case. some running QB can also throw. But playing as an actual drop back passer is (stylistically at least) a different skillset. Not everyone can make the transition.

and yes, some runnning QB cannot cut it as a drop back passer because they really are not great at throwing the football. their running opened up the pass game in a way that being a drop back passer does not.

That does not mean that they cannot throw the ball. but the reads are definitely different and the way you play the game is different. new skillsets need to be developed. such as the art of throwing someone open. the art of a timing pattern. these are tools you can get by without because when defenders see you threatening to run with the football, they will sometimes leave the guy they are covering to try to make the tackle on the QB and then the throw comes and the WR is wide open. so the need to rely on these other tools is not there.

Not everyone can make that transition successfully.

the other reason a lot of running QB dont have long careers is because they take a lot more hits than the drop back passer. those extra hits take a large toll on the body. lots of those guys start to get injured a lot in the later years. Donovan McNabb, Cam Newton are two who were successful but whose bodies broke down before they even hit 30. then there are a few who only had a couple years.... RGIII for example. and once you get to a point where you cannot stay healthy, you become a backup QB or just retire.

Very well said, Ray.

Pretty much supplements my feelings on the issue as well. From a pure fantasy perspective, running QBs are fantasy gold but in real life I would think that teams investing so much $$$$ into the QB position would take it seriously and choose long-term position stability instead of the short-term adrenaline shot. The contracts nowadays are huge and I think risking that on a running QB is foolish, but that's just my opinion.

Here were the top 4 QBs in rush attempts last season: Jalen Hurts, Jayden Daniels, Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson.

So to recap, last season, Hurts was Super Bowl MVP. Daniels was offensive rookie of the year. Allen was league MVP. Jackson was a 1st team all-pro. 3 of the 4 were the starting QBs in their conference championship games.

"Tis better to be silent, and thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."

Then I suggest you remain silent, because your "analysis" here is lazy and doesn't take in the context of a career. You're looking at a ONE YEAR sample and extrapolating that to what myself and @Ray_T were talking about, in general, of most running QBs over a career.

Are there some exceptions to the rule? Sure, but of the guys YOU mentioned, we don't know that yet and, of course, they would be EXCEPTIONS to the rule, not the rule.

Lamar Jackson - played 7 seasons (and counting)
Michael Vick - 13 seasons
Cam Newton - 11 seasons
Russell Wilson - 13 seasons (and counting)
Randall Cunningham - played 16 seasons
Steve Young - 15 seasons
Josh Allen - 7 seasons (and counting)
Fran Tarkenton - 18 seasons
Steve McNair - 13 seasons
Donovan McNabb - 13 seasons

Exceptions to the rule I guess . . .

 

[Snotbubbles]

Well, that's the problem with running QBS - they run because they can't pass really good.

That is not always the case. some running QB can also throw. But playing as an actual drop back passer is (stylistically at least) a different skillset. Not everyone can make the transition.

and yes, some runnning QB cannot cut it as a drop back passer because they really are not great at throwing the football. their running opened up the pass game in a way that being a drop back passer does not.

That does not mean that they cannot throw the ball. but the reads are definitely different and the way you play the game is different. new skillsets need to be developed. such as the art of throwing someone open. the art of a timing pattern. these are tools you can get by without because when defenders see you threatening to run with the football, they will sometimes leave the guy they are covering to try to make the tackle on the QB and then the throw comes and the WR is wide open. so the need to rely on these other tools is not there.

Not everyone can make that transition successfully.

the other reason a lot of running QB dont have long careers is because they take a lot more hits than the drop back passer. those extra hits take a large toll on the body. lots of those guys start to get injured a lot in the later years. Donovan McNabb, Cam Newton are two who were successful but whose bodies broke down before they even hit 30. then there are a few who only had a couple years.... RGIII for example. and once you get to a point where you cannot stay healthy, you become a backup QB or just retire.

Very well said, Ray.

Pretty much supplements my feelings on the issue as well. From a pure fantasy perspective, running QBs are fantasy gold but in real life I would think that teams investing so much $$$$ into the QB position would take it seriously and choose long-term position stability instead of the short-term adrenaline shot. The contracts nowadays are huge and I think risking that on a running QB is foolish, but that's just my opinion.

Here were the top 4 QBs in rush attempts last season: Jalen Hurts, Jayden Daniels, Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson.

So to recap, last season, Hurts was Super Bowl MVP. Daniels was offensive rookie of the year. Allen was league MVP. Jackson was a 1st team all-pro. 3 of the 4 were the starting QBs in their conference championship games.

"Tis better to be silent, and thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."

Then I suggest you remain silent, because your "analysis" here is lazy and doesn't take in the context of a career. You're looking at a ONE YEAR sample and extrapolating that to what myself and @Ray_T were talking about, in general, of most running QBs over a career.

Are there some exceptions to the rule? Sure, but of the guys YOU mentioned, we don't know that yet and, of course, they would be EXCEPTIONS to the rule, not the rule.

McNabb was a case of a running QB who could throw the ball.

but his career was cut short. My belief is that this was due to injuries. he was mostly done by 30. he had one good, healthy year at age 31 (might have been 32)

he only had a fully healthy season once after the year 2005. I should know. he was my keeper QB in my keeper league at the time. he missed a lot of time and there were games where he played, but likely shouldnt have because he just wasnt himself. dont get me wrong. I'm a big fan of his. love him as a player. one of the best fantasy QB of his era due to the rush yards.

he was brought up, not because he couldnt throw the ball. but because he was a running QB who could. and his career was not especially long. Not due to his inability to throw. but his inability to stay healthy. This is (in my opinion) an increased risk with any running QB simply by means of the fact that they take a whole lot more hits than your typical drop back QB.

McNabb wasn't a great passer, as noted by his career 59% completion percentage. He had a low INT% but that was because he never took risks because those early 2000s Eagles were defined by defense so McNabb would only need to have one or two good drives. To be fair, apart from getting TO for the 2004 season, Reid never really gave McNabb any real good WRs.

ETA: One of the funniest jokes I heard on local Philly radio was when TO dies, his grave marker will read "Now, I can finally catch Donovan McNabb's passes." Ask any Eagles fan, they'll tell you, McNabb had a cannon of an arm, but he would throw worm killers on a pretty regular basis.

ETA (2): You can say, McNabb's career was cut short because he got injured due to running. My counter argument to that is, without his ability to run and extend plays, McNabb's career would have been half as long as it was because his passing ability wasn't good enough.

 

[Snotbubbles]

7. Purdy

Purdy’s contract seems perfectly in line with what starting QBs are getting. In light of the cap increasing, in a few years it’ll look like a bargain.

He’s played at a very high level when his team was healthy, and has won high pressure and playoff games with cagey play with his arm & legs.

TJ Housh said he thought he was overpaid, and when asked what he should have been paid, he said “$47M” - that just sounds silly. If you’re gonna pay him $47M might as well pay $53M

He’s hardly the highest paid QB in the NFL. I don’t see why he’s on this list. At the very least, maybe afford him the time to show whether he’s overpaid or not.

What most aren’t noting is that it doesn’t kick in until next year, so it’s slightly better in that light.

But given that he hasn’t played a single down on that new contract, it seems misguided to say he’s overpaid or has a bad contract. We can’t possibly know that until he’s played games under it. If he comes out and poops the bed, ok - he’s overpaid. But if he keeps winning games & going to the playoffs, that contract will seem just fine.

In a few years Purdy's cap hits get huge. The hits are a bargain until 2028, then they get crazy high.

Brock Purdy Cap Hits:

2025 - $9.1M
2026 - $24.8M
2027 - $30.8M
2028 - $57.6M
2029 - $72.5M
2030 - $64.5M
2031 - VOID ($11M)

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

7. Purdy

Purdy’s contract seems perfectly in line with what starting QBs are getting. In light of the cap increasing, in a few years it’ll look like a bargain.

He’s played at a very high level when his team was healthy, and has won high pressure and playoff games with cagey play with his arm & legs.

TJ Housh said he thought he was overpaid, and when asked what he should have been paid, he said “$47M” - that just sounds silly. If you’re gonna pay him $47M might as well pay $53M

He’s hardly the highest paid QB in the NFL. I don’t see why he’s on this list. At the very least, maybe afford him the time to show whether he’s overpaid or not.

What most aren’t noting is that it doesn’t kick in until next year, so it’s slightly better in that light.

But given that he hasn’t played a single down on that new contract, it seems misguided to say he’s overpaid or has a bad contract. We can’t possibly know that until he’s played games under it. If he comes out and poops the bed, ok - he’s overpaid. But if he keeps winning games & going to the playoffs, that contract will seem just fine.

In a few years Purdy's cap hits get huge. The hits are a bargain until 2028, then they get crazy high.

Brock Purdy Cap Hits:

2025 - $9.1M
2026 - $24.8M
2027 - $30.8M
2028 - $57.6M
2029 - $72.5M
2030 - $64.5M
2031 - VOID ($11M)

Lord willing we all live to see 2030

As a great man once said, “ain’t my money.”

(I was that man)

 

[Uruk-Hai]

7. Purdy

Purdy’s contract seems perfectly in line with what starting QBs are getting. In light of the cap increasing, in a few years it’ll look like a bargain.

He’s played at a very high level when his team was healthy, and has won high pressure and playoff games with cagey play with his arm & legs.

TJ Housh said he thought he was overpaid, and when asked what he should have been paid, he said “$47M” - that just sounds silly. If you’re gonna pay him $47M might as well pay $53M

He’s hardly the highest paid QB in the NFL. I don’t see why he’s on this list. At the very least, maybe afford him the time to show whether he’s overpaid or not.

What most aren’t noting is that it doesn’t kick in until next year, so it’s slightly better in that light.

But given that he hasn’t played a single down on that new contract, it seems misguided to say he’s overpaid or has a bad contract. We can’t possibly know that until he’s played games under it. If he comes out and poops the bed, ok - he’s overpaid. But if he keeps winning games & going to the playoffs, that contract will seem just fine.

In a few years Purdy's cap hits get huge. The hits are a bargain until 2028, then they get crazy high.

Brock Purdy Cap Hits:

2025 - $9.1M
2026 - $24.8M
2027 - $30.8M
2028 - $57.6M
2029 - $72.5M
2030 - $64.5M
2031 - VOID ($11M)

If Purdy is playing well, they'll rework that contract in 2027/2028. The Ravens and Lamar Jackson are already reportedly discussing a leveling-out extension before his giant cap jump hits. Plus, the cap is going to keep rising.

 

[Joe Bryant]

As a great man once said, “ain’t my money.”

(I was that man)

Seems like an odd flex. Its the teams money. And that money is the finite resource that’s the life blood for every team in a salary cap game.

I don’t know any fan that doesn’t care a ton about how their team spends money.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

As a great man once said, “ain’t my money.”

(I was that man)

Seems like an odd flex. Its the teams money. And that money is the finite resource that’s the life blood for every team in a salary cap game.

I don’t know any fan that doesn’t care a ton about how their team spends money.

It wasn’t a “flex” at all.

His contract is right there with other QBs - his contract is fine.

I do care about how they spend their money. I do not care about 2030 right now.

My comment was pretty obviously tongue in cheek.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

7. Purdy

Purdy’s contract seems perfectly in line with what starting QBs are getting. In light of the cap increasing, in a few years it’ll look like a bargain.

He’s played at a very high level when his team was healthy, and has won high pressure and playoff games with cagey play with his arm & legs.

TJ Housh said he thought he was overpaid, and when asked what he should have been paid, he said “$47M” - that just sounds silly. If you’re gonna pay him $47M might as well pay $53M

He’s hardly the highest paid QB in the NFL. I don’t see why he’s on this list. At the very least, maybe afford him the time to show whether he’s overpaid or not.

What most aren’t noting is that it doesn’t kick in until next year, so it’s slightly better in that light.

But given that he hasn’t played a single down on that new contract, it seems misguided to say he’s overpaid or has a bad contract. We can’t possibly know that until he’s played games under it. If he comes out and poops the bed, ok - he’s overpaid. But if he keeps winning games & going to the playoffs, that contract will seem just fine.

In a few years Purdy's cap hits get huge. The hits are a bargain until 2028, then they get crazy high.

Brock Purdy Cap Hits:

2025 - $9.1M
2026 - $24.8M
2027 - $30.8M
2028 - $57.6M
2029 - $72.5M
2030 - $64.5M
2031 - VOID ($11M)

If Purdy is playing well, they'll rework that contract in 2027/2028. The Ravens and Lamar Jackson are already reportedly discussing a leveling-out extension before his giant cap jump hits. Plus, the cap is going to keep rising.

This exactly. Thus my comment earlier - I didn’t think I had to spell it out, but I’m not going to sweat 2030 numbers because I doubt they are the same numbers in 2030.

I mentioned the cap situation in my first post.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I don’t know any fan that doesn’t care a ton about how their team spends money.

Also, really? Not “any”? You don’t know 1 fan who doesn’t care?

Cmon. That sounds extremely unlikely.

I know dozens of fans who couldn’t give a fancy fart how their team spends money.

What a bizarre thing to say. You think every beer-guzzling nfl fan is a capologist? Little kids in Mahomes jerseys aren’t sitting around talking about player options in 2027. The dudes with face paint in the black hole generally aren’t sitting around discussing contract extensions and cap space. I know - I’ve spent 3 games there. Player salary / team spend wasn’t mentioned once.

Perhaps you run in different circles than I do.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

7. Purdy

Purdy’s contract seems perfectly in line with what starting QBs are getting. In light of the cap increasing, in a few years it’ll look like a bargain.

He’s played at a very high level when his team was healthy, and has won high pressure and playoff games with cagey play with his arm & legs.

TJ Housh said he thought he was overpaid, and when asked what he should have been paid, he said “$47M” - that just sounds silly. If you’re gonna pay him $47M might as well pay $53M

He’s hardly the highest paid QB in the NFL. I don’t see why he’s on this list. At the very least, maybe afford him the time to show whether he’s overpaid or not.

What most aren’t noting is that it doesn’t kick in until next year, so it’s slightly better in that light.

But given that he hasn’t played a single down on that new contract, it seems misguided to say he’s overpaid or has a bad contract. We can’t possibly know that until he’s played games under it. If he comes out and poops the bed, ok - he’s overpaid. But if he keeps winning games & going to the playoffs, that contract will seem just fine.

In a few years Purdy's cap hits get huge. The hits are a bargain until 2028, then they get crazy high.

Brock Purdy Cap Hits:

2025 - $9.1M
2026 - $24.8M
2027 - $30.8M
2028 - $57.6M
2029 - $72.5M
2030 - $64.5M
2031 - VOID ($11M)

If Purdy is playing well, they'll rework that contract in 2027/2028. The Ravens and Lamar Jackson are already reportedly discussing a leveling-out extension before his giant cap jump hits. Plus, the cap is going to keep rising.

This exactly. Thus my comment earlier - I didn’t think I had to spell it out, but I’m not going to sweat 2030 numbers because I doubt they are the same numbers in 2030.

I mentioned the cap situation in my first post.

I think it's a perfectly reasonable contract for both player and team for the next couple of years as it sits. Most teams/players/agents aren't dumb and know how the game is played.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I don’t know any fan that doesn’t care a ton about how their team spends money.

Also, really? Not “any”? You don’t know 1 fan who doesn’t care?

Cmon. That sounds extremely unlikely.

I know dozens of fans who couldn’t give a fancy fart how their team spends money.

What a bizarre thing to say. You think every beer-guzzling nfl fan is a capologist? Little kids in Mahomes jerseys aren’t sitting around talking about player options in 2027. The dudes with face paint in the black hole generally aren’t sitting around discussing contract extensions and cap space. I know - I’ve spent 3 games there. Player salary / team spend wasn’t mentioned once.

Perhaps you run in different circles than I do.

I'm sure there are exceptions. Most every NFL fan I know cares a ton about how their team spends money because in a salary cap game, it's crucial to the team's success. They don't say "aint my money".

If that's a bizarre concept for you, not sure what to tell you. I'm only speaking from my experience.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

If that's a bizarre concept for you, not sure what to tell you. I'm only speaking from my experience.

I think it’s an absurd generalization. The concept is fine - I just don’t believe it’s true. Certainly not in my experience.

 

[BladeRunner]

If that's a bizarre concept for you, not sure what to tell you. I'm only speaking from my experience.

I think it’s an absurd generalization. The concept is fine - I just don’t believe it’s true. Certainly not in my experience.

HSG: I think I found your issue: "MOST" <> "ALL"

I'm sure there are exceptions. Most every NFL fan I know cares a ton about how their team spends money because in a salary cap game, it's crucial to the team's success. They don't say "aint my money".

If that's a bizarre concept for you, not sure what to tell you. I'm only speaking from my experience.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

I don’t know any fan that doesn’t care a ton about how their team spends money.

Also, really? Not “any”? You don’t know 1 fan who doesn’t care?

Cmon. That sounds extremely unlikely.

I know dozens of fans who couldn’t give a fancy fart how their team spends money.

What a bizarre thing to say. You think every beer-guzzling nfl fan is a capologist? Little kids in Mahomes jerseys aren’t sitting around talking about player options in 2027. The dudes with face paint in the black hole generally aren’t sitting around discussing contract extensions and cap space. I know - I’ve spent 3 games there. Player salary / team spend wasn’t mentioned once.

Perhaps you run in different circles than I do.

I'm sure there are exceptions. Most every NFL fan I know cares a ton about how their team spends money because in a salary cap game, it's crucial to the team's success. They don't say "aint my money".

If that's a bizarre concept for you, not sure what to tell you. I'm only speaking from my experience.

Honesty, Joe. I lose exactly zero minutes of sleep on how Baltimore spends their money. They are up against the cap every year, they lose FAs they can't afford every year, and coaches who get promoted to other teams every year (I realize coaches don't figure into the cap). The guys running that team are smarter than I am. The only bad "big" contract I can recall they signed recently was Marcus Williams, but it looked great at the time and solidified a spot that needed it badly.

I trust Steve Bisciotti (who made his money in identifying, valuing, and placing personnel), De Costa, and the rest of that FO/scouting department. Each off-season, I try to predict who will get extensions, new contracts, and who they'll let walk. I'm almost always wrong

 

[Joe Bryant]

I don’t know any fan that doesn’t care a ton about how their team spends money.

Also, really? Not “any”? You don’t know 1 fan who doesn’t care?

Cmon. That sounds extremely unlikely.

I know dozens of fans who couldn’t give a fancy fart how their team spends money.

What a bizarre thing to say. You think every beer-guzzling nfl fan is a capologist? Little kids in Mahomes jerseys aren’t sitting around talking about player options in 2027. The dudes with face paint in the black hole generally aren’t sitting around discussing contract extensions and cap space. I know - I’ve spent 3 games there. Player salary / team spend wasn’t mentioned once.

Perhaps you run in different circles than I do.

I'm sure there are exceptions. Most every NFL fan I know cares a ton about how their team spends money because in a salary cap game, it's crucial to the team's success. They don't say "aint my money".

If that's a bizarre concept for you, not sure what to tell you. I'm only speaking from my experience.

Honesty, Joe. I lose exactly zero minutes of sleep on how Baltimore spends their money. They are up against the cap every year, they lose FAs they can't afford every year, and coaches who get promoted to other teams every year (I realize coaches don't figure into the cap). The guys running that team are smarter than I am. The only bad "big" contract I can recall they signed recently was Marcus Williams, but it looked great at the time and solidified a spot that needed it badly.

I trust Steve Bisciotti (who made his money in identifying, valuing, and placing personnel), De Costa, and the rest of that FO/scouting department. Each off-season, I try to predict who will get extensions, new contracts, and who they'll let walk. I'm almost always wrong

Sure. You trust they'll spend it wisely. How it's spent matters a ton.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I don’t know any fan that doesn’t care a ton about how their team spends money.

Also, really? Not “any”? You don’t know 1 fan who doesn’t care?

Cmon. That sounds extremely unlikely.

I know dozens of fans who couldn’t give a fancy fart how their team spends money.

What a bizarre thing to say. You think every beer-guzzling nfl fan is a capologist? Little kids in Mahomes jerseys aren’t sitting around talking about player options in 2027. The dudes with face paint in the black hole generally aren’t sitting around discussing contract extensions and cap space. I know - I’ve spent 3 games there. Player salary / team spend wasn’t mentioned once.

Perhaps you run in different circles than I do.

I'm sure there are exceptions. Most every NFL fan I know cares a ton about how their team spends money because in a salary cap game, it's crucial to the team's success. They don't say "aint my money".

If that's a bizarre concept for you, not sure what to tell you. I'm only speaking from my experience.

Honesty, Joe. I lose exactly zero minutes of sleep on how Baltimore spends their money. They are up against the cap every year, they lose FAs they can't afford every year, and coaches who get promoted to other teams every year (I realize coaches don't figure into the cap). The guys running that team are smarter than I am. The only bad "big" contract I can recall they signed recently was Marcus Williams, but it looked great at the time and solidified a spot that needed it badly.

I trust Steve Bisciotti (who made his money in identifying, valuing, and placing personnel), De Costa, and the rest of that FO/scouting department. Each off-season, I try to predict who will get extensions, new contracts, and who they'll let walk. I'm almost always wrong

This exactly.

During the season I spend MNF with friends BBQ-ing, and late Sundays on this very forum for the night games.

I can’t recall cap discussion creeping in once.

The only salary cap discussions I can recall are about people’s FF rosters and who they should drop.

Outside of magical foozeball that’s stuff best left to the front office.

But I come from the Debartolo era of 49ers football where everyone got paid all the time and nobody cared.

And these days teams are always pulling a rabbit out of their hat with cap structure, deal restructuring, converting $ to signing bonus or moving it around in the contract to the point that it all seems like Monopoly money anyway.

Debating whether or not Purdy’s 2030 contract will a hindrance to my team just isn’t energy well spent because it’ll likely be irrelevant by then anyway.

 

[Ray_T]

Well, that's the problem with running QBS - they run because they can't pass really good.

That is not always the case. some running QB can also throw. But playing as an actual drop back passer is (stylistically at least) a different skillset. Not everyone can make the transition.

and yes, some runnning QB cannot cut it as a drop back passer because they really are not great at throwing the football. their running opened up the pass game in a way that being a drop back passer does not.

That does not mean that they cannot throw the ball. but the reads are definitely different and the way you play the game is different. new skillsets need to be developed. such as the art of throwing someone open. the art of a timing pattern. these are tools you can get by without because when defenders see you threatening to run with the football, they will sometimes leave the guy they are covering to try to make the tackle on the QB and then the throw comes and the WR is wide open. so the need to rely on these other tools is not there.

Not everyone can make that transition successfully.

the other reason a lot of running QB dont have long careers is because they take a lot more hits than the drop back passer. those extra hits take a large toll on the body. lots of those guys start to get injured a lot in the later years. Donovan McNabb, Cam Newton are two who were successful but whose bodies broke down before they even hit 30. then there are a few who only had a couple years.... RGIII for example. and once you get to a point where you cannot stay healthy, you become a backup QB or just retire.

Very well said, Ray.

Pretty much supplements my feelings on the issue as well. From a pure fantasy perspective, running QBs are fantasy gold but in real life I would think that teams investing so much $$$$ into the QB position would take it seriously and choose long-term position stability instead of the short-term adrenaline shot. The contracts nowadays are huge and I think risking that on a running QB is foolish, but that's just my opinion.

Here were the top 4 QBs in rush attempts last season: Jalen Hurts, Jayden Daniels, Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson.

So to recap, last season, Hurts was Super Bowl MVP. Daniels was offensive rookie of the year. Allen was league MVP. Jackson was a 1st team all-pro. 3 of the 4 were the starting QBs in their conference championship games.

"Tis better to be silent, and thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."

Then I suggest you remain silent, because your "analysis" here is lazy and doesn't take in the context of a career. You're looking at a ONE YEAR sample and extrapolating that to what myself and @Ray_T were talking about, in general, of most running QBs over a career.

Are there some exceptions to the rule? Sure, but of the guys YOU mentioned, we don't know that yet and, of course, they would be EXCEPTIONS to the rule, not the rule.

McNabb was a case of a running QB who could throw the ball.

but his career was cut short. My belief is that this was due to injuries. he was mostly done by 30. he had one good, healthy year at age 31 (might have been 32)

he only had a fully healthy season once after the year 2005. I should know. he was my keeper QB in my keeper league at the time. he missed a lot of time and there were games where he played, but likely shouldnt have because he just wasnt himself. dont get me wrong. I'm a big fan of his. love him as a player. one of the best fantasy QB of his era due to the rush yards.

he was brought up, not because he couldnt throw the ball. but because he was a running QB who could. and his career was not especially long. Not due to his inability to throw. but his inability to stay healthy. This is (in my opinion) an increased risk with any running QB simply by means of the fact that they take a whole lot more hits than your typical drop back QB.

McNabb wasn't a great passer, as noted by his career 59% completion percentage. He had a low INT% but that was because he never took risks because those early 2000s Eagles were defined by defense so McNabb would only need to have one or two good drives. To be fair, apart from getting TO for the 2004 season, Reid never really gave McNabb any real good WRs.

ETA: One of the funniest jokes I heard on local Philly radio was when TO dies, his grave marker will read "Now, I can finally catch Donovan McNabb's passes." Ask any Eagles fan, they'll tell you, McNabb had a cannon of an arm, but he would throw worm killers on a pretty regular basis.

ETA (2): You can say, McNabb's career was cut short because he got injured due to running. My counter argument to that is, without his ability to run and extend plays, McNabb's career would have been half as long as it was because his passing ability wasn't good enough.

you have to take it in the context of the era. at that point in time a 55% passer who could throw for over 3000 yards was a solid starter. there were not a whole lot of QB prior to the current era who completed 60% of their passes with regularity. the offenses have since evolved. so thats not a fair analysis.

it is also worth noting that most of his sub 60% passing years were early in his career and the one year he was injured and missed roughly half the season.

 

[Ray_T]

So you are telling me if Trent Dilfer, Jeff Hosteler etc win 2 SB they would have been HOF’s?

Come on man.

I was actually very specific in the post you quoted saying 2 rings PLUS being “an integral part of their offense” - e.g. Not just a Dilfer playing well enough not lose while the team carried him.

And adding 45 Rushing TD to his resume, while continuing to play at a high level.

Context is a thing that exists. @Ray_T was responding to the context of my post in this case, so I actually don’t think he was saying that, no.

no I wouldnt compare those guys.

guys like Dilfer are the exception because outside of winning the superbowl, he didnt really light the world on fire statistically. he was just an excellent game manager. the star of that show was the fearsome defense and the run game if my memory is correct. he had a lot of short fields to work with and likely was replaceable in that offense.

so no, not a fair comparison.

 

[Ray_T]

I don’t know any fan that doesn’t care a ton about how their team spends money.

Also, really? Not “any”? You don’t know 1 fan who doesn’t care?

Cmon. That sounds extremely unlikely.

I know dozens of fans who couldn’t give a fancy fart how their team spends money.

What a bizarre thing to say. You think every beer-guzzling nfl fan is a capologist? Little kids in Mahomes jerseys aren’t sitting around talking about player options in 2027. The dudes with face paint in the black hole generally aren’t sitting around discussing contract extensions and cap space. I know - I’ve spent 3 games there. Player salary / team spend wasn’t mentioned once.

Perhaps you run in different circles than I do.

I think a lot of fans just want to go out and watch football. outside of the highest paid player (or two) on the team most fans pay little attention unless there is a long holdout over a contract negotiation.

more serious fans and people in football pools look at the cap stuff for sure. but I dont think they are in the majority. (though fantasy football is gaining in popularity every year)

 

[Ray_T]

Well, that's the problem with running QBS - they run because they can't pass really good.

That is not always the case. some running QB can also throw. But playing as an actual drop back passer is (stylistically at least) a different skillset. Not everyone can make the transition.

and yes, some runnning QB cannot cut it as a drop back passer because they really are not great at throwing the football. their running opened up the pass game in a way that being a drop back passer does not.

That does not mean that they cannot throw the ball. but the reads are definitely different and the way you play the game is different. new skillsets need to be developed. such as the art of throwing someone open. the art of a timing pattern. these are tools you can get by without because when defenders see you threatening to run with the football, they will sometimes leave the guy they are covering to try to make the tackle on the QB and then the throw comes and the WR is wide open. so the need to rely on these other tools is not there.

Not everyone can make that transition successfully.

the other reason a lot of running QB dont have long careers is because they take a lot more hits than the drop back passer. those extra hits take a large toll on the body. lots of those guys start to get injured a lot in the later years. Donovan McNabb, Cam Newton are two who were successful but whose bodies broke down before they even hit 30. then there are a few who only had a couple years.... RGIII for example. and once you get to a point where you cannot stay healthy, you become a backup QB or just retire.

Very well said, Ray.

Pretty much supplements my feelings on the issue as well. From a pure fantasy perspective, running QBs are fantasy gold but in real life I would think that teams investing so much $$$$ into the QB position would take it seriously and choose long-term position stability instead of the short-term adrenaline shot. The contracts nowadays are huge and I think risking that on a running QB is foolish, but that's just my opinion.

Here were the top 4 QBs in rush attempts last season: Jalen Hurts, Jayden Daniels, Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson.

So to recap, last season, Hurts was Super Bowl MVP. Daniels was offensive rookie of the year. Allen was league MVP. Jackson was a 1st team all-pro. 3 of the 4 were the starting QBs in their conference championship games.

"Tis better to be silent, and thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."

Then I suggest you remain silent, because your "analysis" here is lazy and doesn't take in the context of a career. You're looking at a ONE YEAR sample and extrapolating that to what myself and @Ray_T were talking about, in general, of most running QBs over a career.

Are there some exceptions to the rule? Sure, but of the guys YOU mentioned, we don't know that yet and, of course, they would be EXCEPTIONS to the rule, not the rule.

Lamar Jackson - played 7 seasons (and counting)
Michael Vick - 13 seasons
Cam Newton - 11 seasons
Russell Wilson - 13 seasons (and counting)
Randall Cunningham - played 16 seasons
Steve Young - 15 seasons
Josh Allen - 7 seasons (and counting)
Fran Tarkenton - 18 seasons
Steve McNair - 13 seasons
Donovan McNabb - 13 seasons

Exceptions to the rule I guess . . .

and some of these guys converted to being more of a drop back passer at some point in their career to prolong it.

Russell Wilson isnt much of a running QB anymore. and neither was Newton after he left Carolina. Vick and McNabb played(mostly) as pocket passers in Andy Reids offense. McNabb ran the ball a fair bit early in his career but his runs and yardage dropped substantially a few years into his career. He mostly just ran the ball when the play broke down.

also counting number of seasons is also misleading.

look at their stats after they turned 30. Just because they are playing in the league does not mean they are effective.

McNabb, I think had one good year after the age of 30 and was mostly injury riddled. Vicks last few seasons were poor as well. Newton was nowhere close to the player he was in Carolina. so while he played past 30 I'd argue he was not an effective player after the age of 30.

I cannot speak for the rest without doing some research.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I don’t know any fan that doesn’t care a ton about how their team spends money.

Also, really? Not “any”? You don’t know 1 fan who doesn’t care?

Cmon. That sounds extremely unlikely.

I know dozens of fans who couldn’t give a fancy fart how their team spends money.

What a bizarre thing to say. You think every beer-guzzling nfl fan is a capologist? Little kids in Mahomes jerseys aren’t sitting around talking about player options in 2027. The dudes with face paint in the black hole generally aren’t sitting around discussing contract extensions and cap space. I know - I’ve spent 3 games there. Player salary / team spend wasn’t mentioned once.

Perhaps you run in different circles than I do.

I think a lot of fans just want to go out and watch football. outside of the highest paid player (or two) on the team most fans pay little attention unless there is a long holdout over a contract negotiation.

more serious fans and people in football pools look at the cap stuff for sure. but I dont think they are in the majority. (though fantasy football is gaining in popularity every year)

I'm sure plenty do. But most of the fans I know (Browns fans anyone?) care quite a bit about contracts. Because determing how a finite-ish amount of money is distributed is a huge part of a teams success or failure.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

So you are telling me if Trent Dilfer, Jeff Hosteler etc win 2 SB they would have been HOF’s?

Come on man.

I was actually very specific in the post you quoted saying 2 rings PLUS being “an integral part of their offense” - e.g. Not just a Dilfer playing well enough not lose while the team carried him.

And adding 45 Rushing TD to his resume, while continuing to play at a high level.

Context is a thing that exists. @Ray_T was responding to the context of my post in this case, so I actually don’t think he was saying that, no.

no I wouldnt compare those guys.

guys like Dilfer are the exception because outside of winning the superbowl, he didnt really light the world on fire statistically. he was just an excellent game manager. the star of that show was the fearsome defense and the run game if my memory is correct. he had a lot of short fields to work with and likely was replaceable in that offense.

so no, not a fair comparison.

Yep - I said about the same. I think we both said integral to the offense, which IMO is key in making that evaluation.

It’s what makes Eli borderline despite having 2 rings. I am on the “Eli beat the Pats dynasty 2x” and was instrumental in doing so. His career stats are good, but I don’t see anyone putting Eli in the same convo as his brother stats-wise.

But Hurts is on another level when it comes to his impact on his team. His rushing extends drives. He can make “all the throws” as they say, and he’s very good at selling PA (not every QB is)

I look at “tush push” as a variation on the QB sneak. I’d give Hurts as much credit for those as I would for any QB who had similar production on the sneak.

And 100 RuTD for a QB along with 1-2 rings and a decade of high level play should be HOF worthy.

The question I often see is “compared to his peers, did he dominate the era in which he played” at various metrics. In that light, he’s a pretty special player.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I'm sure plenty do. But most of the fans I know (Browns fans anyone?) care quite a bit about contracts. Because determing how a finite-ish amount of money is distributed is a huge part of a teams success or failure.

Browns are an outlier though because if the ridiculous fully guaranteed disastrous contract they gave Watson. They wear it like a millstone around their neck.

That’s a significant exception. Of course Browns fans talk about salary cap in that context.

 

[pinkstapler]

7. Purdy

Purdy’s contract seems perfectly in line with what starting QBs are getting. In light of the cap increasing, in a few years it’ll look like a bargain.

He’s played at a very high level when his team was healthy, and has won high pressure and playoff games with cagey play with his arm & legs.

TJ Housh said he thought he was overpaid, and when asked what he should have been paid, he said “$47M” - that just sounds silly. If you’re gonna pay him $47M might as well pay $53M

He’s hardly the highest paid QB in the NFL. I don’t see why he’s on this list. At the very least, maybe afford him the time to show whether he’s overpaid or not.

What most aren’t noting is that it doesn’t kick in until next year, so it’s slightly better in that light.

But given that he hasn’t played a single down on that new contract, it seems misguided to say he’s overpaid or has a bad contract. We can’t possibly know that until he’s played games under it. If he comes out and poops the bed, ok - he’s overpaid. But if he keeps winning games & going to the playoffs, that contract will seem just fine.

I know there's some debate on whether or not NFL organizations weigh, or even look at, QB metrics when making these decisions. But I know from playing fantasy when I look at them, Brock Purdy is undoubtedly performing at the level of a top 10QB in the league since he's been the starter. Could easily make a case several spots higher than that too.

Considering the rising salary cap, and the way each new QB contract tends to reset the market higher and higher; Purdy's deal feels very fair. And, much like you said I agree, in another couple years will probably feel like a steal.

 

[Anarchy99]

Yep - I said about the same. I think we both said integral to the offense, which IMO is key in making that evaluation.

It’s what makes Eli borderline despite having 2 rings. I am on the “Eli beat the Pats dynasty 2x” and was instrumental in doing so. His career stats are good, but I don’t see anyone putting Eli in the same convo as his brother stats-wise.

But Hurts is on another level when it comes to his impact on his team. His rushing extends drives. He can make “all the throws” as they say, and he’s very good at selling PA (not every QB is)

I look at “tush push” as a variation on the QB sneak. I’d give Hurts as much credit for those as I would for any QB who had similar production on the sneak.

And 100 RuTD for a QB along with 1-2 rings and a decade of high level play should be HOF worthy.

The question I often see is “compared to his peers, did he dominate the era in which he played” at various metrics. In that light, he’s a pretty special player.

The fact of the matter is, we only know part of the Hurts' story, and until the entire book is written, it's going to be a whole lot of guess work. As a for instance, Cam Newton looked great for 5 years, and then things started trending the wrong direction. (I'm not comparing Hurts and Newton per say). How do folks view Cam these days as a HOF candidate?

Maybe Hurts starts to get some nagging injuries, the Eagles fall off, or he ends up on another franchise that is fair to midland. Maybe he plays 7 more years but goes 35-55. I know that sounds crazy now, but we haven't gotten that far yet. I don't expect that to happen, but I didn't expect Carson Wentz go to from a leading MVP candidate on a SB team to what he is now . . . a backup with a .500 career record as a starter.

Different sport, but as a Red Sox fan, I thought Nomar Garciaparra and Dustin Pedroia were going to be locks for the HOF. But things didn't continue in the same direction over the latter parts of their careers. The point being, in any sport, things can change quickly, and fortunes can be flipped pretty easily. I don't expect Hurts to turn into a JAG, and for now we should expect him to continue to produce at a high level and win a lot of games. But that is not a given.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Yep - I said about the same. I think we both said integral to the offense, which IMO is key in making that evaluation.

It’s what makes Eli borderline despite having 2 rings. I am on the “Eli beat the Pats dynasty 2x” and was instrumental in doing so. His career stats are good, but I don’t see anyone putting Eli in the same convo as his brother stats-wise.

But Hurts is on another level when it comes to his impact on his team. His rushing extends drives. He can make “all the throws” as they say, and he’s very good at selling PA (not every QB is)

I look at “tush push” as a variation on the QB sneak. I’d give Hurts as much credit for those as I would for any QB who had similar production on the sneak.

And 100 RuTD for a QB along with 1-2 rings and a decade of high level play should be HOF worthy.

The question I often see is “compared to his peers, did he dominate the era in which he played” at various metrics. In that light, he’s a pretty special player.

The fact of the matter is, we only know part of the Hurts' story, and until the entire book is written, it's going to be a whole lot of guess work. As a for instance, Cam Newton looked great for 5 years, and then things started trending the wrong direction. (I'm not comparing Hurts and Newton per say). How do folks view Cam these days as a HOF candidate?

Maybe Hurts starts to get some nagging injuries, the Eagles fall off, or he ends up on another franchise that is fair to midland. Maybe he plays 7 more years but goes 35-55. I know that sounds crazy now, but we haven't gotten that far yet. I don't expect that to happen, but I didn't expect Carson Wentz go to from a leading MVP candidate on a SB team to what he is now . . . a backup with a .500 career record as a starter.

Different sport, but as a Red Sox fan, I thought Nomar Garciaparra and Dustin Pedroia were going to be locks for the HOF. But things didn't continue in the same direction over the latter parts of their careers. The point being, in any sport, things can change quickly, and fortunes can be flipped pretty easily. I don't expect Hurts to turn into a JAG, and for now we should expect him to continue to produce at a high level and win a lot of games. But that is not a given.

no arguments from me on any of those points. I think that’s why some of us couched our comments in “if he continues this level of play” plus the context of +45 more RuTD.

But you’re spot on - those 5 years have to happen.

Honestly I thought Nomar would get carpel tunnel from the 34 OCD glove strap adjustment bat tap routine before every pitch, but it was other stuff that shortened his career.

That routine used to get my dander up something fierce. Just get in the box and hack dude, ain’t nobody wants a 5 hour game!

 

[Snotbubbles]

Well, that's the problem with running QBS - they run because they can't pass really good.

That is not always the case. some running QB can also throw. But playing as an actual drop back passer is (stylistically at least) a different skillset. Not everyone can make the transition.

and yes, some runnning QB cannot cut it as a drop back passer because they really are not great at throwing the football. their running opened up the pass game in a way that being a drop back passer does not.

That does not mean that they cannot throw the ball. but the reads are definitely different and the way you play the game is different. new skillsets need to be developed. such as the art of throwing someone open. the art of a timing pattern. these are tools you can get by without because when defenders see you threatening to run with the football, they will sometimes leave the guy they are covering to try to make the tackle on the QB and then the throw comes and the WR is wide open. so the need to rely on these other tools is not there.

Not everyone can make that transition successfully.

the other reason a lot of running QB dont have long careers is because they take a lot more hits than the drop back passer. those extra hits take a large toll on the body. lots of those guys start to get injured a lot in the later years. Donovan McNabb, Cam Newton are two who were successful but whose bodies broke down before they even hit 30. then there are a few who only had a couple years.... RGIII for example. and once you get to a point where you cannot stay healthy, you become a backup QB or just retire.

Very well said, Ray.

Pretty much supplements my feelings on the issue as well. From a pure fantasy perspective, running QBs are fantasy gold but in real life I would think that teams investing so much $$$$ into the QB position would take it seriously and choose long-term position stability instead of the short-term adrenaline shot. The contracts nowadays are huge and I think risking that on a running QB is foolish, but that's just my opinion.

Here were the top 4 QBs in rush attempts last season: Jalen Hurts, Jayden Daniels, Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson.

So to recap, last season, Hurts was Super Bowl MVP. Daniels was offensive rookie of the year. Allen was league MVP. Jackson was a 1st team all-pro. 3 of the 4 were the starting QBs in their conference championship games.

"Tis better to be silent, and thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."

Then I suggest you remain silent, because your "analysis" here is lazy and doesn't take in the context of a career. You're looking at a ONE YEAR sample and extrapolating that to what myself and @Ray_T were talking about, in general, of most running QBs over a career.

Are there some exceptions to the rule? Sure, but of the guys YOU mentioned, we don't know that yet and, of course, they would be EXCEPTIONS to the rule, not the rule.

McNabb was a case of a running QB who could throw the ball.

but his career was cut short. My belief is that this was due to injuries. he was mostly done by 30. he had one good, healthy year at age 31 (might have been 32)

he only had a fully healthy season once after the year 2005. I should know. he was my keeper QB in my keeper league at the time. he missed a lot of time and there were games where he played, but likely shouldnt have because he just wasnt himself. dont get me wrong. I'm a big fan of his. love him as a player. one of the best fantasy QB of his era due to the rush yards.

he was brought up, not because he couldnt throw the ball. but because he was a running QB who could. and his career was not especially long. Not due to his inability to throw. but his inability to stay healthy. This is (in my opinion) an increased risk with any running QB simply by means of the fact that they take a whole lot more hits than your typical drop back QB.

McNabb wasn't a great passer, as noted by his career 59% completion percentage. He had a low INT% but that was because he never took risks because those early 2000s Eagles were defined by defense so McNabb would only need to have one or two good drives. To be fair, apart from getting TO for the 2004 season, Reid never really gave McNabb any real good WRs.

ETA: One of the funniest jokes I heard on local Philly radio was when TO dies, his grave marker will read "Now, I can finally catch Donovan McNabb's passes." Ask any Eagles fan, they'll tell you, McNabb had a cannon of an arm, but he would throw worm killers on a pretty regular basis.

ETA (2): You can say, McNabb's career was cut short because he got injured due to running. My counter argument to that is, without his ability to run and extend plays, McNabb's career would have been half as long as it was because his passing ability wasn't good enough.

you have to take it in the context of the era. at that point in time a 55% passer who could throw for over 3000 yards was a solid starter. there were not a whole lot of QB prior to the current era who completed 60% of their passes with regularity. the offenses have since evolved. so thats not a fair analysis.

it is also worth noting that most of his sub 60% passing years were early in his career and the one year he was injured and missed roughly half the season.

Donovan McNabb Completion % ranks (minimum 10 starts):

2000: 19th (below league average)
2001: 18th (below league average)
2002: 22nd (below league average)
2003: 17th (below league average)
2004: 10th (above league average)
2005: 17th (below league average)
2006: 21st (below league average)
2007: 18th (above league average)
2008: 17th (below league average)
2009: 20th (below league average)
2010: 24th (below league average)

His best finish in completion percentage was 2010. He finished below league average 9 times. I watched every game the guy ever played, he wasn't a great passer.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

His best finish in completion percentage was 2010. He finished below league average 9 times. I watched every game the guy ever played, he wasn't a great passer

He had that magical season until he broke his fibula. Dude was giving me 40+ a game.

My other QB was a very capable Jake Delhomme - who got badly concussed in the late games that same day.

Sad day in FF land for this hot sauce guy.

 

[Snotbubbles]

Well, that's the problem with running QBS - they run because they can't pass really good.

That is not always the case. some running QB can also throw. But playing as an actual drop back passer is (stylistically at least) a different skillset. Not everyone can make the transition.

and yes, some runnning QB cannot cut it as a drop back passer because they really are not great at throwing the football. their running opened up the pass game in a way that being a drop back passer does not.

That does not mean that they cannot throw the ball. but the reads are definitely different and the way you play the game is different. new skillsets need to be developed. such as the art of throwing someone open. the art of a timing pattern. these are tools you can get by without because when defenders see you threatening to run with the football, they will sometimes leave the guy they are covering to try to make the tackle on the QB and then the throw comes and the WR is wide open. so the need to rely on these other tools is not there.

Not everyone can make that transition successfully.

the other reason a lot of running QB dont have long careers is because they take a lot more hits than the drop back passer. those extra hits take a large toll on the body. lots of those guys start to get injured a lot in the later years. Donovan McNabb, Cam Newton are two who were successful but whose bodies broke down before they even hit 30. then there are a few who only had a couple years.... RGIII for example. and once you get to a point where you cannot stay healthy, you become a backup QB or just retire.

Very well said, Ray.

Pretty much supplements my feelings on the issue as well. From a pure fantasy perspective, running QBs are fantasy gold but in real life I would think that teams investing so much $$$$ into the QB position would take it seriously and choose long-term position stability instead of the short-term adrenaline shot. The contracts nowadays are huge and I think risking that on a running QB is foolish, but that's just my opinion.

Here were the top 4 QBs in rush attempts last season: Jalen Hurts, Jayden Daniels, Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson.

So to recap, last season, Hurts was Super Bowl MVP. Daniels was offensive rookie of the year. Allen was league MVP. Jackson was a 1st team all-pro. 3 of the 4 were the starting QBs in their conference championship games.

"Tis better to be silent, and thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."

Then I suggest you remain silent, because your "analysis" here is lazy and doesn't take in the context of a career. You're looking at a ONE YEAR sample and extrapolating that to what myself and @Ray_T were talking about, in general, of most running QBs over a career.

Are there some exceptions to the rule? Sure, but of the guys YOU mentioned, we don't know that yet and, of course, they would be EXCEPTIONS to the rule, not the rule.

Lamar Jackson - played 7 seasons (and counting)
Michael Vick - 13 seasons
Cam Newton - 11 seasons
Russell Wilson - 13 seasons (and counting)
Randall Cunningham - played 16 seasons
Steve Young - 15 seasons
Josh Allen - 7 seasons (and counting)
Fran Tarkenton - 18 seasons
Steve McNair - 13 seasons
Donovan McNabb - 13 seasons

Exceptions to the rule I guess . . .

and some of these guys converted to being more of a drop back passer at some point in their career to prolong it.

Russell Wilson isnt much of a running QB anymore. and neither was Newton after he left Carolina. Vick and McNabb played(mostly) as pocket passers in Andy Reids offense. McNabb ran the ball a fair bit early in his career but his runs and yardage dropped substantially a few years into his career. He mostly just ran the ball when the play broke down.

also counting number of seasons is also misleading.

look at their stats after they turned 30. Just because they are playing in the league does not mean they are effective.

McNabb, I think had one good year after the age of 30 and was mostly injury riddled. Vicks last few seasons were poor as well. Newton was nowhere close to the player he was in Carolina. so while he played past 30 I'd argue he was not an effective player after the age of 30.

I cannot speak for the rest without doing some research.

You're just making my point for me. Running QBs who aren't good passers don't last in the league, not because they're too injured to continue playing, but because they got by with their legs and once they lose a step they can't make up for it with their arms. For example, Steve Young in his early 30s was a mobile QB, but in his late 30s wasn't. Same thing with Russell Wilson. Those guys bring more to the table than just running, so they stick around longer because they are also good passers.

 

[BladeRunner]

So you are telling me if Trent Dilfer, Jeff Hosteler etc win 2 SB they would have been HOF’s?

Come on man.

I was actually very specific in the post you quoted saying 2 rings PLUS being “an integral part of their offense” - e.g. Not just a Dilfer playing well enough not lose while the team carried him.

And adding 45 Rushing TD to his resume, while continuing to play at a high level.

Context is a thing that exists. @Ray_T was responding to the context of my post in this case, so I actually don’t think he was saying that, no.

no I wouldnt compare those guys.

guys like Dilfer are the exception because outside of winning the superbowl, he didnt really light the world on fire statistically. he was just an excellent game manager. the star of that show was the fearsome defense and the run game if my memory is correct. he had a lot of short fields to work with and likely was replaceable in that offense.

so no, not a fair comparison.

Yep - I said about the same. I think we both said integral to the offense, which IMO is key in making that evaluation.

It’s what makes Eli borderline despite having 2 rings. I am on the “Eli beat the Pats dynasty 2x” and was instrumental in doing so. His career stats are good, but I don’t see anyone putting Eli in the same convo as his brother stats-wise.

But Hurts is on another level when it comes to his impact on his team. His rushing extends drives. He can make “all the throws” as they say, and he’s very good at selling PA (not every QB is)

I look at “tush push” as a variation on the QB sneak. I’d give Hurts as much credit for those as I would for any QB who had similar production on the sneak.

And 100 RuTD for a QB along with 1-2 rings and a decade of high level play should be HOF worthy.

The question I often see is “compared to his peers, did he dominate the era in which he played” at various metrics. In that light, he’s a pretty special player.

I disagree. He's doing that NOW because he's young, like dang near every single running QB that ever played the game when they first got in the league. All those running QBs "extend drives" because, well they're RUNNING instead of THROWING. Remember, Colin Kaepernick? Yeah, me too. They light up the league for the first few years with their running but then it all comes home to roost when age or defenses catch up with them. I disagree that Hurts can "make all the throws". I think he "he makes all the throws" simply because DEF are expecting him to run so that leaves WR more open.

It's when the running QB CAN'T run anymore is when the deficiencies really start to show.

 

[Terpman22]

So you are telling me if Trent Dilfer, Jeff Hosteler etc win 2 SB they would have been HOF’s?

Come on man.

I was actually very specific in the post you quoted saying 2 rings PLUS being “an integral part of their offense” - e.g. Not just a Dilfer playing well enough not lose while the team carried him.

And adding 45 Rushing TD to his resume, while continuing to play at a high level.

Context is a thing that exists. @Ray_T was responding to the context of my post in this case, so I actually don’t think he was saying that, no.

no I wouldnt compare those guys.

guys like Dilfer are the exception because outside of winning the superbowl, he didnt really light the world on fire statistically. he was just an excellent game manager. the star of that show was the fearsome defense and the run game if my memory is correct. he had a lot of short fields to work with and likely was replaceable in that offense.

so no, not a fair comparison.

Yep - I said about the same. I think we both said integral to the offense, which IMO is key in making that evaluation.

It’s what makes Eli borderline despite having 2 rings. I am on the “Eli beat the Pats dynasty 2x” and was instrumental in doing so. His career stats are good, but I don’t see anyone putting Eli in the same convo as his brother stats-wise.

But Hurts is on another level when it comes to his impact on his team. His rushing extends drives. He can make “all the throws” as they say, and he’s very good at selling PA (not every QB is)

I look at “tush push” as a variation on the QB sneak. I’d give Hurts as much credit for those as I would for any QB who had similar production on the sneak.

And 100 RuTD for a QB along with 1-2 rings and a decade of high level play should be HOF worthy.

The question I often see is “compared to his peers, did he dominate the era in which he played” at various metrics. In that light, he’s a pretty special player.

I disagree. He's doing that NOW because he's young, like dang near every single running QB that ever played the game when they first got in the league. All those running QBs "extend drives" because, well they're RUNNING instead of THROWING. Remember, Colin Kaepernick? Yeah, me too. They light up the league for the first few years with their running but then it all comes home to roost when age or defenses catch up with them. I disagree that Hurts can "make all the throws". I think he "he makes all the throws" simply because DEF are expecting him to run so that leaves WR more open.

It's when the running QB CAN'T run anymore is when the deficiencies really start to show.

Who are these running QBs you are speaking of? My main point is the sample size is not big enough to conclude what you are trying to conclude here.

It seems to me the list I have provided of "successful running QBs" is longer than the list you have provided as "unsuccessful"


Fair enough to disagree that Jalen Hurts "can't make all the throw" but statistically speaking, would you agree he has improved as a passer in each season?

 

[Gatorade]

I don’t know any fan that doesn’t care a ton about how their team spends money.

Also, really? Not “any”? You don’t know 1 fan who doesn’t care?

Cmon. That sounds extremely unlikely.

I know dozens of fans who couldn’t give a fancy fart how their team spends money.

What a bizarre thing to say. You think every beer-guzzling nfl fan is a capologist? Little kids in Mahomes jerseys aren’t sitting around talking about player options in 2027. The dudes with face paint in the black hole generally aren’t sitting around discussing contract extensions and cap space. I know - I’ve spent 3 games there. Player salary / team spend wasn’t mentioned once.

Perhaps you run in different circles than I do.

I think a lot of fans just want to go out and watch football. outside of the highest paid player (or two) on the team most fans pay little attention unless there is a long holdout over a contract negotiation.

more serious fans and people in football pools look at the cap stuff for sure. but I dont think they are in the majority. (though fantasy football is gaining in popularity every year)

I'm sure plenty do. But most of the fans I know (Browns fans anyone?) care quite a bit about contracts. Because determing how a finite-ish amount of money is distributed is a huge part of a teams success or failure.

As a Cowboys fan, I care about the crazy contract they gave Dak. It seems to have caused a reduction in spending in other areas. Mostly because Jerry always waits too long to extend his star players.

 

[BladeRunner]

So you are telling me if Trent Dilfer, Jeff Hosteler etc win 2 SB they would have been HOF’s?

Come on man.

I was actually very specific in the post you quoted saying 2 rings PLUS being “an integral part of their offense” - e.g. Not just a Dilfer playing well enough not lose while the team carried him.

And adding 45 Rushing TD to his resume, while continuing to play at a high level.

Context is a thing that exists. @Ray_T was responding to the context of my post in this case, so I actually don’t think he was saying that, no.

no I wouldnt compare those guys.

guys like Dilfer are the exception because outside of winning the superbowl, he didnt really light the world on fire statistically. he was just an excellent game manager. the star of that show was the fearsome defense and the run game if my memory is correct. he had a lot of short fields to work with and likely was replaceable in that offense.

so no, not a fair comparison.

Yep - I said about the same. I think we both said integral to the offense, which IMO is key in making that evaluation.

It’s what makes Eli borderline despite having 2 rings. I am on the “Eli beat the Pats dynasty 2x” and was instrumental in doing so. His career stats are good, but I don’t see anyone putting Eli in the same convo as his brother stats-wise.

But Hurts is on another level when it comes to his impact on his team. His rushing extends drives. He can make “all the throws” as they say, and he’s very good at selling PA (not every QB is)

I look at “tush push” as a variation on the QB sneak. I’d give Hurts as much credit for those as I would for any QB who had similar production on the sneak.

And 100 RuTD for a QB along with 1-2 rings and a decade of high level play should be HOF worthy.

The question I often see is “compared to his peers, did he dominate the era in which he played” at various metrics. In that light, he’s a pretty special player.

I disagree. He's doing that NOW because he's young, like dang near every single running QB that ever played the game when they first got in the league. All those running QBs "extend drives" because, well they're RUNNING instead of THROWING. Remember, Colin Kaepernick? Yeah, me too. They light up the league for the first few years with their running but then it all comes home to roost when age or defenses catch up with them. I disagree that Hurts can "make all the throws". I think he "he makes all the throws" simply because DEF are expecting him to run so that leaves WR more open.

It's when the running QB CAN'T run anymore is when the deficiencies really start to show.

Who are these running QBs you are speaking of? My main point is the sample size is not big enough to conclude what you are trying to conclude here.

It seems to me the list I have provided of "successful running QBs" is longer than the list you have provided as "unsuccessful"


Fair enough to disagree that Jalen Hurts "can't make all the throw" but statistically speaking, would you agree he has improved as a passer in each season?

I'm not sure I've even addressed your list, TBH.

But, in general, YES, I can agree that he has improved.

 

[need2know]

Jalen is way better than cam newton. In every way. Measurable and not measurable. He will be in the hall. It has been foretold. Roll tide

 

[BladeRunner]

Jalen is way better than cam newton. In every way. Measurable and not measurable. He will be in the hall. It has been foretold. Roll tide

It's way too early to make that call, IMO. This conversation really is silly at this point.

 

[Todem]

Jalen is way better than cam newton. In every way. Measurable and not measurable. He will be in the hall. It has been foretold. Roll tide

It's way too early to make that call, IMO. This conversation really is silly at this point.

I find it kinda absurd.

 

[need2know]

Jalen is way better than cam newton. In every way. Measurable and not measurable. He will be in the hall. It has been foretold. Roll tide

It's way too early to make that call, IMO. This conversation really is silly at this point.

You are a silly sad man

 

[BladeRunner]

Jalen is way better than cam newton. In every way. Measurable and not measurable. He will be in the hall. It has been foretold. Roll tide

It's way too early to make that call, IMO. This conversation really is silly at this point.

You are a silly sad man

Not as silly or sad as the guy who wants to talk HOF for a guy whose only been in the league for a few years. You should learn to accept that reasonable adults can disagree so you should not get so angry and lash out.

 

[Ray_T]

So you are telling me if Trent Dilfer, Jeff Hosteler etc win 2 SB they would have been HOF’s?

Come on man.

I was actually very specific in the post you quoted saying 2 rings PLUS being “an integral part of their offense” - e.g. Not just a Dilfer playing well enough not lose while the team carried him.

And adding 45 Rushing TD to his resume, while continuing to play at a high level.

Context is a thing that exists. @Ray_T was responding to the context of my post in this case, so I actually don’t think he was saying that, no.

no I wouldnt compare those guys.

guys like Dilfer are the exception because outside of winning the superbowl, he didnt really light the world on fire statistically. he was just an excellent game manager. the star of that show was the fearsome defense and the run game if my memory is correct. he had a lot of short fields to work with and likely was replaceable in that offense.

so no, not a fair comparison.

Yep - I said about the same. I think we both said integral to the offense, which IMO is key in making that evaluation.

It’s what makes Eli borderline despite having 2 rings. I am on the “Eli beat the Pats dynasty 2x” and was instrumental in doing so. His career stats are good, but I don’t see anyone putting Eli in the same convo as his brother stats-wise.

But Hurts is on another level when it comes to his impact on his team. His rushing extends drives. He can make “all the throws” as they say, and he’s very good at selling PA (not every QB is)

I look at “tush push” as a variation on the QB sneak. I’d give Hurts as much credit for those as I would for any QB who had similar production on the sneak.

And 100 RuTD for a QB along with 1-2 rings and a decade of high level play should be HOF worthy.

The question I often see is “compared to his peers, did he dominate the era in which he played” at various metrics. In that light, he’s a pretty special player.

I disagree. He's doing that NOW because he's young, like dang near every single running QB that ever played the game when they first got in the league. All those running QBs "extend drives" because, well they're RUNNING instead of THROWING. Remember, Colin Kaepernick? Yeah, me too. They light up the league for the first few years with their running but then it all comes home to roost when age or defenses catch up with them. I disagree that Hurts can "make all the throws". I think he "he makes all the throws" simply because DEF are expecting him to run so that leaves WR more open.

It's when the running QB CAN'T run anymore is when the deficiencies really start to show.

for sure.

and if that QB is going to have a longer career. (stress on Longer) they need to at some point transition to be a pocket passer.

the running QB takes far too many hits and his body breaks down. Most of these types go down because they cannot stay healthy. and once the injury train starts, it rarely stops at the NFL level.

some can do it. some cant. others are capable but run into the injury train before they can make the transition. the key is to make that transition before the body breaks down.

 

[Terpman22]

So you are telling me if Trent Dilfer, Jeff Hosteler etc win 2 SB they would have been HOF’s?

Come on man.

I was actually very specific in the post you quoted saying 2 rings PLUS being “an integral part of their offense” - e.g. Not just a Dilfer playing well enough not lose while the team carried him.

And adding 45 Rushing TD to his resume, while continuing to play at a high level.

Context is a thing that exists. @Ray_T was responding to the context of my post in this case, so I actually don’t think he was saying that, no.

no I wouldnt compare those guys.

guys like Dilfer are the exception because outside of winning the superbowl, he didnt really light the world on fire statistically. he was just an excellent game manager. the star of that show was the fearsome defense and the run game if my memory is correct. he had a lot of short fields to work with and likely was replaceable in that offense.

so no, not a fair comparison.

Yep - I said about the same. I think we both said integral to the offense, which IMO is key in making that evaluation.

It’s what makes Eli borderline despite having 2 rings. I am on the “Eli beat the Pats dynasty 2x” and was instrumental in doing so. His career stats are good, but I don’t see anyone putting Eli in the same convo as his brother stats-wise.

But Hurts is on another level when it comes to his impact on his team. His rushing extends drives. He can make “all the throws” as they say, and he’s very good at selling PA (not every QB is)

I look at “tush push” as a variation on the QB sneak. I’d give Hurts as much credit for those as I would for any QB who had similar production on the sneak.

And 100 RuTD for a QB along with 1-2 rings and a decade of high level play should be HOF worthy.

The question I often see is “compared to his peers, did he dominate the era in which he played” at various metrics. In that light, he’s a pretty special player.

I disagree. He's doing that NOW because he's young, like dang near every single running QB that ever played the game when they first got in the league. All those running QBs "extend drives" because, well they're RUNNING instead of THROWING. Remember, Colin Kaepernick? Yeah, me too. They light up the league for the first few years with their running but then it all comes home to roost when age or defenses catch up with them. I disagree that Hurts can "make all the throws". I think he "he makes all the throws" simply because DEF are expecting him to run so that leaves WR more open.

It's when the running QB CAN'T run anymore is when the deficiencies really start to show.

for sure.

and if that QB is going to have a longer career. (stress on Longer) they need to at some point transition to be a pocket passer.

the running QB takes far too many hits and his body breaks down. Most of these types go down because they cannot stay healthy. and once the injury train starts, it rarely stops at the NFL level.

some can do it. some cant. others are capable but run into the injury train before they can make the transition. the key is to make that transition before the body breaks down.

Can I have YOUR list of all these running QB's that eventually breakdown, that does not include the guys below. I feel its being passed as Gospel that "most running QB's fail b/c injuries/can't transition to pocket QB" but I mean, Can anyone explain what Josh Allen is now? Is he a running QB? Is he a pocket passer? Is he a guy that ya know, a lot of folks seem to forget they gave up on after his first 2 years to only see him pretty much improve every single year since then?



RG3
Cam Newton
Donovan Mcnabb
Michael Vick
Randall Cunningham
McNair
Kaepernick
Russ Wilson
Fran Tarkenton
Steve Young

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

So you are telling me if Trent Dilfer, Jeff Hosteler etc win 2 SB they would have been HOF’s?

Come on man.

I was actually very specific in the post you quoted saying 2 rings PLUS being “an integral part of their offense” - e.g. Not just a Dilfer playing well enough not lose while the team carried him.

And adding 45 Rushing TD to his resume, while continuing to play at a high level.

Context is a thing that exists. @Ray_T was responding to the context of my post in this case, so I actually don’t think he was saying that, no.

no I wouldnt compare those guys.

guys like Dilfer are the exception because outside of winning the superbowl, he didnt really light the world on fire statistically. he was just an excellent game manager. the star of that show was the fearsome defense and the run game if my memory is correct. he had a lot of short fields to work with and likely was replaceable in that offense.

so no, not a fair comparison.

Yep - I said about the same. I think we both said integral to the offense, which IMO is key in making that evaluation.

It’s what makes Eli borderline despite having 2 rings. I am on the “Eli beat the Pats dynasty 2x” and was instrumental in doing so. His career stats are good, but I don’t see anyone putting Eli in the same convo as his brother stats-wise.

But Hurts is on another level when it comes to his impact on his team. His rushing extends drives. He can make “all the throws” as they say, and he’s very good at selling PA (not every QB is)

I look at “tush push” as a variation on the QB sneak. I’d give Hurts as much credit for those as I would for any QB who had similar production on the sneak.

And 100 RuTD for a QB along with 1-2 rings and a decade of high level play should be HOF worthy.

The question I often see is “compared to his peers, did he dominate the era in which he played” at various metrics. In that light, he’s a pretty special player.

I disagree. He's doing that NOW because he's young, like dang near every single running QB that ever played the game when they first got in the league. All those running QBs "extend drives" because, well they're RUNNING instead of THROWING. Remember, Colin Kaepernick? Yeah, me too. They light up the league for the first few years with their running but then it all comes home to roost when age or defenses catch up with them. I disagree that Hurts can "make all the throws". I think he "he makes all the throws" simply because DEF are expecting him to run so that leaves WR more open.

It's when the running QB CAN'T run anymore is when the deficiencies really start to show.

for sure.

and if that QB is going to have a longer career. (stress on Longer) they need to at some point transition to be a pocket passer.

the running QB takes far too many hits and his body breaks down. Most of these types go down because they cannot stay healthy. and once the injury train starts, it rarely stops at the NFL level.

some can do it. some cant. others are capable but run into the injury train before they can make the transition. the key is to make that transition before the body breaks down.

Can I have YOUR list of all these running QB's that eventually breakdown, that does not include the guys below. I feel its being passed as Gospel that "most running QB's fail b/c injuries/can't transition to pocket QB" but I mean, Can anyone explain what Josh Allen is now? Is he a running QB? Is he a pocket passer? Is he a guy that ya know, a lot of folks seem to forget they gave up on after his first 2 years to only see him pretty much improve every single year since then?



RG3
Cam Newton
Donovan Mcnabb
Michael Vick
Randall Cunningham
McNair
Kaepernick
Russ Wilson
Fran Tarkenton
Steve Young

Hurts has the best OL, best RB, and arguably the best receiving corp in the league.

Your "quarterback" passed for 18 TDs and 5 INTs. Thats laughable.

He ran in 14 TDs.

Thats a RB playing the QB position.

 

[Terpman22]

So you are telling me if Trent Dilfer, Jeff Hosteler etc win 2 SB they would have been HOF’s?

Come on man.

I was actually very specific in the post you quoted saying 2 rings PLUS being “an integral part of their offense” - e.g. Not just a Dilfer playing well enough not lose while the team carried him.

And adding 45 Rushing TD to his resume, while continuing to play at a high level.

Context is a thing that exists. @Ray_T was responding to the context of my post in this case, so I actually don’t think he was saying that, no.

no I wouldnt compare those guys.

guys like Dilfer are the exception because outside of winning the superbowl, he didnt really light the world on fire statistically. he was just an excellent game manager. the star of that show was the fearsome defense and the run game if my memory is correct. he had a lot of short fields to work with and likely was replaceable in that offense.

so no, not a fair comparison.

Yep - I said about the same. I think we both said integral to the offense, which IMO is key in making that evaluation.

It’s what makes Eli borderline despite having 2 rings. I am on the “Eli beat the Pats dynasty 2x” and was instrumental in doing so. His career stats are good, but I don’t see anyone putting Eli in the same convo as his brother stats-wise.

But Hurts is on another level when it comes to his impact on his team. His rushing extends drives. He can make “all the throws” as they say, and he’s very good at selling PA (not every QB is)

I look at “tush push” as a variation on the QB sneak. I’d give Hurts as much credit for those as I would for any QB who had similar production on the sneak.

And 100 RuTD for a QB along with 1-2 rings and a decade of high level play should be HOF worthy.

The question I often see is “compared to his peers, did he dominate the era in which he played” at various metrics. In that light, he’s a pretty special player.

I disagree. He's doing that NOW because he's young, like dang near every single running QB that ever played the game when they first got in the league. All those running QBs "extend drives" because, well they're RUNNING instead of THROWING. Remember, Colin Kaepernick? Yeah, me too. They light up the league for the first few years with their running but then it all comes home to roost when age or defenses catch up with them. I disagree that Hurts can "make all the throws". I think he "he makes all the throws" simply because DEF are expecting him to run so that leaves WR more open.

It's when the running QB CAN'T run anymore is when the deficiencies really start to show.

for sure.

and if that QB is going to have a longer career. (stress on Longer) they need to at some point transition to be a pocket passer.

the running QB takes far too many hits and his body breaks down. Most of these types go down because they cannot stay healthy. and once the injury train starts, it rarely stops at the NFL level.

some can do it. some cant. others are capable but run into the injury train before they can make the transition. the key is to make that transition before the body breaks down.

Can I have YOUR list of all these running QB's that eventually breakdown, that does not include the guys below. I feel its being passed as Gospel that "most running QB's fail b/c injuries/can't transition to pocket QB" but I mean, Can anyone explain what Josh Allen is now? Is he a running QB? Is he a pocket passer? Is he a guy that ya know, a lot of folks seem to forget they gave up on after his first 2 years to only see him pretty much improve every single year since then?



RG3
Cam Newton
Donovan Mcnabb
Michael Vick
Randall Cunningham
McNair
Kaepernick
Russ Wilson
Fran Tarkenton
Steve Young

Hurts has the best OL, best RB, and arguably the best receiving corp in the league.

Your "quarterback" passed for 18 TDs and 5 INTs. Thats laughable.

He ran in 14 TDs.

Thats a RB playing the QB position.

I'm not sure how this contributes to the conversation. I think its pretty obvious you are not a Jalen Hurts fan and this is fine.
You think he can't pass.
You think his rushing touchdowns also don't count.

I still have yet to hear your thoughts on my short list of running QB's and how the fact the sample size is so short its almost impossible to make a guess based on the performance of players of before when in my opinion there might be just as many "running QBs in the league TODAY" than there has been in the history of the league ~ 10 or so QBs.

But if you want to come in here daily and say "Jalen Hurts stinks/hes a running back" thats fine.

You have a "real QB" in Jared Goff and that just makes me laugh.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

arguably the best receiving corp in the league.

No one would argue this.

 

[Snotbubbles]

So you are telling me if Trent Dilfer, Jeff Hosteler etc win 2 SB they would have been HOF’s?

Come on man.

I was actually very specific in the post you quoted saying 2 rings PLUS being “an integral part of their offense” - e.g. Not just a Dilfer playing well enough not lose while the team carried him.

And adding 45 Rushing TD to his resume, while continuing to play at a high level.

Context is a thing that exists. @Ray_T was responding to the context of my post in this case, so I actually don’t think he was saying that, no.

no I wouldnt compare those guys.

guys like Dilfer are the exception because outside of winning the superbowl, he didnt really light the world on fire statistically. he was just an excellent game manager. the star of that show was the fearsome defense and the run game if my memory is correct. he had a lot of short fields to work with and likely was replaceable in that offense.

so no, not a fair comparison.

Yep - I said about the same. I think we both said integral to the offense, which IMO is key in making that evaluation.

It’s what makes Eli borderline despite having 2 rings. I am on the “Eli beat the Pats dynasty 2x” and was instrumental in doing so. His career stats are good, but I don’t see anyone putting Eli in the same convo as his brother stats-wise.

But Hurts is on another level when it comes to his impact on his team. His rushing extends drives. He can make “all the throws” as they say, and he’s very good at selling PA (not every QB is)

I look at “tush push” as a variation on the QB sneak. I’d give Hurts as much credit for those as I would for any QB who had similar production on the sneak.

And 100 RuTD for a QB along with 1-2 rings and a decade of high level play should be HOF worthy.

The question I often see is “compared to his peers, did he dominate the era in which he played” at various metrics. In that light, he’s a pretty special player.

I disagree. He's doing that NOW because he's young, like dang near every single running QB that ever played the game when they first got in the league. All those running QBs "extend drives" because, well they're RUNNING instead of THROWING. Remember, Colin Kaepernick? Yeah, me too. They light up the league for the first few years with their running but then it all comes home to roost when age or defenses catch up with them. I disagree that Hurts can "make all the throws". I think he "he makes all the throws" simply because DEF are expecting him to run so that leaves WR more open.

It's when the running QB CAN'T run anymore is when the deficiencies really start to show.

for sure.

and if that QB is going to have a longer career. (stress on Longer) they need to at some point transition to be a pocket passer.

the running QB takes far too many hits and his body breaks down. Most of these types go down because they cannot stay healthy. and once the injury train starts, it rarely stops at the NFL level.

some can do it. some cant. others are capable but run into the injury train before they can make the transition. the key is to make that transition before the body breaks down.

Jalen Hurts is already a good passer, he was at 68% completion percentage last year (8th in the league, ahead of guys like Mahomes, Stafford, and Purdy). Off the top of my head, I don't think I can come up with a running QB who was a bad passer in his early years and then transitioned to being a good passer in his later years. Maybe there is an example, I don't know.

 

[Snotbubbles]

So you are telling me if Trent Dilfer, Jeff Hosteler etc win 2 SB they would have been HOF’s?

Come on man.

I was actually very specific in the post you quoted saying 2 rings PLUS being “an integral part of their offense” - e.g. Not just a Dilfer playing well enough not lose while the team carried him.

And adding 45 Rushing TD to his resume, while continuing to play at a high level.

Context is a thing that exists. @Ray_T was responding to the context of my post in this case, so I actually don’t think he was saying that, no.

no I wouldnt compare those guys.

guys like Dilfer are the exception because outside of winning the superbowl, he didnt really light the world on fire statistically. he was just an excellent game manager. the star of that show was the fearsome defense and the run game if my memory is correct. he had a lot of short fields to work with and likely was replaceable in that offense.

so no, not a fair comparison.

Yep - I said about the same. I think we both said integral to the offense, which IMO is key in making that evaluation.

It’s what makes Eli borderline despite having 2 rings. I am on the “Eli beat the Pats dynasty 2x” and was instrumental in doing so. His career stats are good, but I don’t see anyone putting Eli in the same convo as his brother stats-wise.

But Hurts is on another level when it comes to his impact on his team. His rushing extends drives. He can make “all the throws” as they say, and he’s very good at selling PA (not every QB is)

I look at “tush push” as a variation on the QB sneak. I’d give Hurts as much credit for those as I would for any QB who had similar production on the sneak.

And 100 RuTD for a QB along with 1-2 rings and a decade of high level play should be HOF worthy.

The question I often see is “compared to his peers, did he dominate the era in which he played” at various metrics. In that light, he’s a pretty special player.

I disagree. He's doing that NOW because he's young, like dang near every single running QB that ever played the game when they first got in the league. All those running QBs "extend drives" because, well they're RUNNING instead of THROWING. Remember, Colin Kaepernick? Yeah, me too. They light up the league for the first few years with their running but then it all comes home to roost when age or defenses catch up with them. I disagree that Hurts can "make all the throws". I think he "he makes all the throws" simply because DEF are expecting him to run so that leaves WR more open.

It's when the running QB CAN'T run anymore is when the deficiencies really start to show.

for sure.

and if that QB is going to have a longer career. (stress on Longer) they need to at some point transition to be a pocket passer.

the running QB takes far too many hits and his body breaks down. Most of these types go down because they cannot stay healthy. and once the injury train starts, it rarely stops at the NFL level.

some can do it. some cant. others are capable but run into the injury train before they can make the transition. the key is to make that transition before the body breaks down.

Can I have YOUR list of all these running QB's that eventually breakdown, that does not include the guys below. I feel its being passed as Gospel that "most running QB's fail b/c injuries/can't transition to pocket QB" but I mean, Can anyone explain what Josh Allen is now? Is he a running QB? Is he a pocket passer? Is he a guy that ya know, a lot of folks seem to forget they gave up on after his first 2 years to only see him pretty much improve every single year since then?



RG3
Cam Newton
Donovan Mcnabb
Michael Vick
Randall Cunningham
McNair
Kaepernick
Russ Wilson
Fran Tarkenton
Steve Young

Hurts has the best OL, best RB, and arguably the best receiving corp in the league.

Your "quarterback" passed for 18 TDs and 5 INTs. Thats laughable.

He ran in 14 TDs.

Thats a RB playing the QB position.

Troy Aikman's career high for passing TDs in a season was 23. On average he threw 17 a year. You do whatever it takes to win the game.

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

So you are telling me if Trent Dilfer, Jeff Hosteler etc win 2 SB they would have been HOF’s?

Come on man.

I was actually very specific in the post you quoted saying 2 rings PLUS being “an integral part of their offense” - e.g. Not just a Dilfer playing well enough not lose while the team carried him.

And adding 45 Rushing TD to his resume, while continuing to play at a high level.

Context is a thing that exists. @Ray_T was responding to the context of my post in this case, so I actually don’t think he was saying that, no.

no I wouldnt compare those guys.

guys like Dilfer are the exception because outside of winning the superbowl, he didnt really light the world on fire statistically. he was just an excellent game manager. the star of that show was the fearsome defense and the run game if my memory is correct. he had a lot of short fields to work with and likely was replaceable in that offense.

so no, not a fair comparison.

Yep - I said about the same. I think we both said integral to the offense, which IMO is key in making that evaluation.

It’s what makes Eli borderline despite having 2 rings. I am on the “Eli beat the Pats dynasty 2x” and was instrumental in doing so. His career stats are good, but I don’t see anyone putting Eli in the same convo as his brother stats-wise.

But Hurts is on another level when it comes to his impact on his team. His rushing extends drives. He can make “all the throws” as they say, and he’s very good at selling PA (not every QB is)

I look at “tush push” as a variation on the QB sneak. I’d give Hurts as much credit for those as I would for any QB who had similar production on the sneak.

And 100 RuTD for a QB along with 1-2 rings and a decade of high level play should be HOF worthy.

The question I often see is “compared to his peers, did he dominate the era in which he played” at various metrics. In that light, he’s a pretty special player.

I disagree. He's doing that NOW because he's young, like dang near every single running QB that ever played the game when they first got in the league. All those running QBs "extend drives" because, well they're RUNNING instead of THROWING. Remember, Colin Kaepernick? Yeah, me too. They light up the league for the first few years with their running but then it all comes home to roost when age or defenses catch up with them. I disagree that Hurts can "make all the throws". I think he "he makes all the throws" simply because DEF are expecting him to run so that leaves WR more open.

It's when the running QB CAN'T run anymore is when the deficiencies really start to show.

for sure.

and if that QB is going to have a longer career. (stress on Longer) they need to at some point transition to be a pocket passer.

the running QB takes far too many hits and his body breaks down. Most of these types go down because they cannot stay healthy. and once the injury train starts, it rarely stops at the NFL level.

some can do it. some cant. others are capable but run into the injury train before they can make the transition. the key is to make that transition before the body breaks down.

Can I have YOUR list of all these running QB's that eventually breakdown, that does not include the guys below. I feel its being passed as Gospel that "most running QB's fail b/c injuries/can't transition to pocket QB" but I mean, Can anyone explain what Josh Allen is now? Is he a running QB? Is he a pocket passer? Is he a guy that ya know, a lot of folks seem to forget they gave up on after his first 2 years to only see him pretty much improve every single year since then?



RG3
Cam Newton
Donovan Mcnabb
Michael Vick
Randall Cunningham
McNair
Kaepernick
Russ Wilson
Fran Tarkenton
Steve Young

Hurts has the best OL, best RB, and arguably the best receiving corp in the league.

Your "quarterback" passed for 18 TDs and 5 INTs. Thats laughable.

He ran in 14 TDs.

Thats a RB playing the QB position.

I'm not sure how this contributes to the conversation. I think its pretty obvious you are not a Jalen Hurts fan and this is fine.
You think he can't pass.
You think his rushing touchdowns also don't count.

I still have yet to hear your thoughts on my short list of running QB's and how the fact the sample size is so short its almost impossible to make a guess based on the performance of players of before when in my opinion there might be just as many "running QBs in the league TODAY" than there has been in the history of the league ~ 10 or so QBs.

But if you want to come in here daily and say "Jalen Hurts stinks/hes a running back" thats fine.

You have a "real QB" in Jared Goff and that just makes me laugh.

If somebody makes a point - you dismiss them and call them a hater or say that their comments "make you laugh". This is why nobody likes talking to you. You take things personal. Insane short guy complex. Also - I don't come in here daily. I don't always make negative comments about Hurts. I never mentioned anything about Goff. You just make stuff up and gaslight people.

Grow up dude. Jalen Hurts isnt your buddy, your relative and likely, not your neighbor. Stop fawning over other grown men.