Chase Stuart
Footballguy
Simple question. What does this mean for the legacies of Tomlin and Cowher?
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
If the Steelers win the Super Bowl (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Chase Stuart
- Start date
by_the_sea_wannabe
:sj:
yes, for now. I love sustained success so Tomlin will need to at least be a winner for a couple of years to cement his spot. Cowher also gets bonus points unlike Noll for leaving us in good shape.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
Not yet. Cowher is, I believe, on the all-time top 10 list for coaching victories (and he's not even 83 years old.) Tomlin, while I love him, also didn't have to suffer through a decade of crap QB play. What it does do, however, is provide Tomlin the opportunity (as he himself would say) to pass Cowher. If they win it all next Sunday, Tomlin wouldn't need to ever win another to surpass Cowher, he'd just have to coach the team for another decade, win 5 or 6 more division titles, and avoid ever letting the team go completely in the tank. He gets to about 140-150 career wins, 8 or so division crowns, and 2 SBs... he passes Cowher.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
It might be enough to get Cowher out of retirement.
Fiddles
Footballguy
Isnt Cowher partially to be blame for that crap qb play?
CrossEyed
Footballguy
Not sure how Cowher coaching somewhere else will help his legacy as the Steelers HC.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
I was thinking more overall. Tomlin could always coach elsewhere too, he's very young.
CrossEyed
Footballguy
AhrnCityPahnder
Yinz-o-riffic
Godsbrother
Footballguy
I love Cowher but if Tomlin wins this SB in my mind he moves to #2 on the all-time Steelers HC list.
The 2010 offseason was a disaster. The Steelers suffered some major injuries to key players and Ben was suspended for the first four games. To go 12-4, win 2 playoff games and make it to the Super Bowl is amazing. If he can win the championship on top of that then I am not sure he didn't do the greatest single season coaching job in team history.
The 2010 offseason was a disaster. The Steelers suffered some major injuries to key players and Ben was suspended for the first four games. To go 12-4, win 2 playoff games and make it to the Super Bowl is amazing. If he can win the championship on top of that then I am not sure he didn't do the greatest single season coaching job in team history.
Interesting nugget:
Cowher didn't want to draft Ben Roethlisberger. He was all over Shawn Andrews and wanted him instead. The war room was pretty divided, but finally Dan Rooney stepped in and basically told them we made the mistake of passing on Marino, let's not do it again. So Rooney was pretty much the deciding factor in that... card goes in, Ben is a Steeler, and history starts getting made.
Maybe it was arrogance, but it seemed like Cowher was never that concerned with having/not having a top flight QB.
Cowher didn't want to draft Ben Roethlisberger. He was all over Shawn Andrews and wanted him instead. The war room was pretty divided, but finally Dan Rooney stepped in and basically told them we made the mistake of passing on Marino, let's not do it again. So Rooney was pretty much the deciding factor in that... card goes in, Ben is a Steeler, and history starts getting made.
Maybe it was arrogance, but it seemed like Cowher was never that concerned with having/not having a top flight QB.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
how much credit does Tomlin deserve? hard to say
Tomlin isnt playing with Rosie Odonnell or Kordell.
Then again both coaches missed the playoffs the year after their superbowl win.
Refresh my memory was **** LeBeau the DC for superbowl XL
Tomlin isnt playing with Rosie Odonnell or Kordell.
Then again both coaches missed the playoffs the year after their superbowl win.
Refresh my memory was **** LeBeau the DC for superbowl XL
trader jake
Footballguy
Cowher's teams didn't capitalize on multiple opportunities to win Super Bowls and if Tomlin can add a second ring he gets the nod.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Yes although in truth Bill Cowher deserves much of the credit for the Steelers excellence on defense. LeBeau is credited with developing the zone blitz but at its core is the 3-4 defense which was brought to Pittsburgh by Cowher.
Frenchy Fuqua
Footballguy
I was surprised Cowher left when he did for this very reason. After 15 years with the Steelers he finally had a veteran franchise QB that could win championships. Obviously he had more important things on his mind to his credit. But now here we are and it's a good topic for debate.
The key ingredient for both is/was Kevin Colbert. He replaced Tom Donahoe when Cowher told the Rooney's that he could no longer work with TD. That has proven to be one of the best moves the Steelers have made in the past 30 years. Colbert's brought a steady pipeline of talent to both coaches. To Cowher's credit he immediately turned around a franchise that had been stagnant for a decade. Cowher put the Steelers in the playoffs consistently with a new attitude, strong defense and running game. Critics point to AFC Championship defeats to lesser teams (SD 1995, NE 2001) and the four home AFC title losses as his negatives. Tomlin has done more with more talented teams. 2-0 in home AFC Champ games, 5-1 in playoffs. Tomlin has done his best job this year. Roethlisberger suspension, O-line injuries, infusion of young WRs, Aaron Smith/Ziggy Hood transition, etc.
It's hard to base this debate purely on Super Bowls because Roethlisberger really is the difference between one SB in Cowher's 15 years and what would be two for Tomlin in four years.
I guess the best answer I can give is that I wouldn't trade Tomlin to get Cowher back at this point.
The key ingredient for both is/was Kevin Colbert. He replaced Tom Donahoe when Cowher told the Rooney's that he could no longer work with TD. That has proven to be one of the best moves the Steelers have made in the past 30 years. Colbert's brought a steady pipeline of talent to both coaches. To Cowher's credit he immediately turned around a franchise that had been stagnant for a decade. Cowher put the Steelers in the playoffs consistently with a new attitude, strong defense and running game. Critics point to AFC Championship defeats to lesser teams (SD 1995, NE 2001) and the four home AFC title losses as his negatives. Tomlin has done more with more talented teams. 2-0 in home AFC Champ games, 5-1 in playoffs. Tomlin has done his best job this year. Roethlisberger suspension, O-line injuries, infusion of young WRs, Aaron Smith/Ziggy Hood transition, etc.
It's hard to base this debate purely on Super Bowls because Roethlisberger really is the difference between one SB in Cowher's 15 years and what would be two for Tomlin in four years.
I guess the best answer I can give is that I wouldn't trade Tomlin to get Cowher back at this point.
Last edited by a moderator:
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
Only a small part. He didn't have final say in all personnel decisions and he walked into a crapfest at the position.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
This is a damn good post. There's nothing here I disagree with.
PlasmaDogPlasma
Footballguy
By people that have never heard of Dom Capers?
scrumptrulescent
Footballguy
Godsbrother
Footballguy
You are right, a victory in Super Bowl XXX would have a huge impact on Cowher's legacy. I will never forget the call to do the onside kick. Now THAT took balls...
CrossEyed
Footballguy
parrot
Footballguy
If Cowher is going to take a hit for the QB's he brought or allowed on board, it seems like he should also get credit for some of the defensive guys that came on board during his tenure. Don't guys like Polamalu, Harrison, Farrior and Taylor all date back to Cowher's tenure? It seems to me Tomlin inherited a pretty full cupboard where the defense was concerned.
Last edited by a moderator:
Sinrman
Footballguy
I don't see how he couldn't be considered "better"... I like Cowher a lot and think he needs to get out of the studio and back on the sidelines somewhere. But Tomlin is a good coach, too, and I
think a lot of players really would like to play with him. He seems like a perfect fit for Steelers who have always struck me as a team that lets their actions do the talking for them. Over the years
they have put together one of the greatest defenses... EVER. And although Tomlin didn't put it all together himself, he has made a lot of decisions and coached well enough to keep them cohesive
and wanting to play for each other and for the city of Pittsburgh.
think a lot of players really would like to play with him. He seems like a perfect fit for Steelers who have always struck me as a team that lets their actions do the talking for them. Over the years
they have put together one of the greatest defenses... EVER. And although Tomlin didn't put it all together himself, he has made a lot of decisions and coached well enough to keep them cohesive
and wanting to play for each other and for the city of Pittsburgh.
Stillers Jr.
Footballguy
Cowher did more with less with more consistency than anyone I can think of.
Tomlin who is solid in his own right, stepped into a great situation and capitalized, but the fact remains...he got handed the keys to a Ferrari.
Tomlin who is solid in his own right, stepped into a great situation and capitalized, but the fact remains...he got handed the keys to a Ferrari.
onlyseventeenpoints?
Footballguy
Tomlon already passed Cowher. Tomlin doesn't spend half of a super bowl back slapping himself for an onsides kick when he should have been coaching.
dharmapunk
Footballguy
I always thought Kordell Stewart's rocky tenure was all because of Cowher. Any reasonable coach would've gotten rid of Kordell years before Cowher finally did. But for some reason, Cowher convinced himself that Kordell would be a good NFL QB. He never was.Evilgrin 72 said:
Adebisi
Footballguy
I agree completely. I've always been a huge Cowher fan. Tomlin isn't a bad head coach, but he couldn't possibly have inherited a better situation. How would be do in Oakland or Detroit?
AhrnCityPahnder
Yinz-o-riffic
I got nothing but manlove for Cowher, but him fishing for complements from the ref after that kick was pretty painful to watch.
AhrnCityPahnder
Yinz-o-riffic
Cowher, DL and DC all pieced it together. All I'm reading this week from Packers fans is how the zone blitz was all Dom Capers idea.scrumptrulescent said:PlasmaDogPlasma said:
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
That is why it is so hard to judge Tomlin. The guy came into a SuperBowl ready situation, not a rebuild, not a mediocre team, not a team on the upswing..a SuperBowl ready team.Stable good drafting organization-checkYoung Franchise QB with one Superbowl win already-checkDominating defense-checkDrive the bus and just keep it between the white lines. Not many guys get their first job in this kind of situation. Barry Switzer is the only other one I can recall.I agree completely. I've always been a huge Cowher fan. Tomlin isn't a bad head coach, but he couldn't possibly have inherited a better situation. How would be do in Oakland or Detroit?
5-ish Finkle
Footballguy
Unless Cowher and Capers were coaching with Cincinnati in the '80s then I can't see how either of them helped LeBeau piece anything together.One can certainly argue that those three had a big role in perfecting the 3-4 version in the early '90s in Pittsburgh.....but LeBeau was running some form of a " fire zone" defense for the better part of a decade by the time any of them ever hit town.Cowher, DL and DC all pieced it together. All I'm reading this week from Packers fans is how the zone blitz was all Dom Capers idea.scrumptrulescent said:PlasmaDogPlasma said:
treat88
Footballguy
100%.If he was given the keys to a Ferrari he has driven it exceedingly well and turbo charged the performance in his spare time.
de Tocqueville
Footballguy
I didn't feel like reading through all the posts, but the question, do you think he will surpass Chuck Noll?
If the Steelers win this Super Bowl, does Tomlin have to become just the second coach to win four Super Bowls or if he wins a third one in the following two years suffice, especially in this era as compared to Noll's era?
I know this is hypothetical but yes, Tomlin will surpass Cowher if the Steelers win.
I despise the Steelers too.
If the Steelers win this Super Bowl, does Tomlin have to become just the second coach to win four Super Bowls or if he wins a third one in the following two years suffice, especially in this era as compared to Noll's era?
I know this is hypothetical but yes, Tomlin will surpass Cowher if the Steelers win.
I despise the Steelers too.
otb_lifer
Footballguy
I'll see that, and raise you: "uhhh ... we're gonna unleash hell in December" from last year ... losing to the Browns/Raiders/Chiefs? Not exacrly a "murderer's row", ya know? So, if he gets credit for this year, he also gets major heat for last year's debacle. 'Nuff said. I like the "keys to a Ferrari" analogy ... I still see this as a team/franchise with Cowher's stamp on it. IMO, Tomlin is nowhere near Cowher's class.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Tomlin has a lonnnnggggg way to go before he surpasses Chuck Noll in my mind. Noll took a team with 40 years of losing and started a tradition of winning that continues to this day. Noll is one of the best head coaches in NFL history but seldom gets the recognition he deserves.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Cowher had a few clunker seasons and laid more than a few eggs in AFC championship games. Both Tomlin and Cowher are excellent coaches and if I were an owner of an NFL I would be happy to have either one.
otb_lifer
Footballguy
Not to hijack or deviate too much, but agree 1,000% here. Shula probably gets the most love from that era, but I would take Noll in a New York SECOND over Shula ... to me, Noll and Landry were head and shoulders above their peers ... winners, innovators, leaders ... both delivered their respective franchises to heights and standards that resonate to this day.Tomlin may ... MAY ... supplant Cowher someday, but Noll is off limits.
FUBAR
Footballguy
The keys analogy is perfect, but the fact is he's driven that Ferrari better than anyone else has. Just recently, Jim Caldwell was also handed keys to a Ferrari (although perhaps a F-14D Tomcat is the better analogy for Indy) and hasn't won a Super Bowl yet. Tomlin is #11 all time in winning percentage, Cowher #22. Tomlin would have more Super Bowl Championships, the same # of Conference championships and will probably reach Cowher's # of division championships in time. I won't put Tomlin over Cowher yet but in ten years he will be, I believe. Also, Tomlin is the best coach in the game today, I'm not sure you could ever have said that about Cowher.
onlyseventeenpoints?
Footballguy
Yeah. Obviously what I said was tongue in cheek. Cowher is a great coach and he needs to get his butt on the football field. During that game I was just hoping one of the refs to say " yes great call coach, now will you shutup?"I got nothing but manlove for Cowher, but him fishing for complements from the ref after that kick was pretty painful to watch.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
People often say that about Roethlisberger, but it isn't really true. The Steelers were 7-11 in the 18 games prior to his being handed the starting job and went 15-1 the rest of that season. That's not a coincidence.If people are going to say that someone walked into a good situation, it's Tomlin to whom the statement more accurately applies. Not knocking him, he's done a terrific job and actually took them up a notch from where they were previously, but some of that also coincides with Roethlisberger's on-field maturation and the emergence of guys like Polamalu and Harrison. Tomlin's an excellent coach, and there are things I like even more about him than Cowher, but until he shows a sustained run of fielding a highly competitive team, I can't rank him above the Chin. Even if he does, he has the benefit of having a real QB to lead the way. The assortment of dog #### Cowher had to trot out there every Sunday for more than a decade reads like a who's who of all-time NFL QB stiffs. When Neil O'Donnell is easily the best QB you had for about 13 years, you know you've got some garbage guys out there. But, to his credit, Cowher almost always kept the team competitive, meaning they were rarely in a position to draft a really good QB. Maybe if they'd drafted Marino in '83, they'd have 10 Lombardis by now.
Road Dogg
Footballguy
if we are going hypothetical, any other organization prolly would canned Cowher. So isn't it fair to say that given the patience of the steelers perhaps there are 15-20 coaches who could have ultimately had Cowhers success, but since most teams never allow a head coach to develop like that they lacked the opportunityyou gotta judge the man based on what he did
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
I am judging him based on what he did. He kept that team extremely competitive with nothing at the QB spot for a prolonged period of time. They drafted a halfway decent QB and went 15-1 and went to the AFCC the first season and won it all the next. Yes, they had a "SB hangover season" the year after, but so did last year's Steelers under Tomlin. If the Steelers win Sunday, it sets Tomlin up to surpass Cowher, but we cannot say he already has. What if the Steelers go 4-12 for the next 7 years and Tomlin is fired? Would you still think he's a better coach than Cowher? Of course not. So, we can't say that yet. If Tomlin continues to keep the team playing at a high level, with a hiccup here and there, for the next decade, then he will have surpassed Cowher. But he isn't there yet. And no, if Cowher called the Rooneys and said he wanted back in Pittsburgh, I wouldn't want them to fire Tomlin and re-hire Cowher. It's not about who's the better coach right now, it's about legacy, and Tomlin simply hasn't been around long enough to compare yet. I think he would tell you the same thing if you asked him.Actually, he'd say something like : "I'm not concerned with legacy... or looking back at my body of work, if you will, I'm concerned with winning football games. We're focused on the Green Bay Packers. Those guys present significant challenges, and it's going to be tough sledding out there. Such is life in the NFL... we're excited about the opportunity that's been laid in front of us. January football, our focus all year has been to collect that hardware, and we're going to spend all our time preparing to do just that. Questions?"if we are going hypothetical, any other organization prolly would canned Cowher. So isn't it fair to say that given the patience of the steelers perhaps there are 15-20 coaches who could have ultimately had Cowhers success, but since most teams never allow a head coach to develop like that they lacked the opportunityyou gotta judge the man based on what he did
Similar threads
- Poll
- Poll
