Illegal immigration (2 Viewers)

[NutterButter]

So now you want us all to pay for a criminal alien's lunches, healthcare, and jail space too?

No, that's paid for by the taxes of the non criminal illegals.   

 

[squistion]

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One of these is not like the others.

 

[NutterButter]

One of these is not like the others.

i think that makes mcgarnicle a moderate lefty

 

[Phase of the Game]

One of these is not like the others.

Yep...one has a pigeon fetish. You got one right!

 

[Higgs]

I notice that you completely ignored the link I provided in the other thread from the CATO Institute about immigrants and crime.

I don't really see the relevance here.  Just because illegals may commit fewer crimes we should let them come in here illegally?

 

[RBM]

McGarnicle sleeping after watching a Trump speech

 Still awesome

 

[Prince Myshkin]

So 4 pages of posts and not one of them dealing with the key issue here - catch and release.  An unaccompanied kid crosses the border illegally in August and is caught.  Instead of sending him back, they release him, and after 7 months his deportation hearing still hasn't been scheduled yet.  Combine that with sanctuary cities and you know what you have in effect?  Open borders.

How is this a good thing for the US?  How is this fair to people trying to get into the country legally?  How is this fair to the students in that town in Maryland?  I heard on the radio that there is a significant cost associated with having to hire teachers who can teach English as a second language, not to mention the other costs with welfare, food stamps, and crime that these kids are bringing with them.  Apparently there has also been a huge spike in gang activity in the town.  

Why do we have catch and release?  Does anybody have a cogent explanation for it?

so just to be clear and make sure everyone is on the same page...the key issue is not the rape of a 14 year old girl? 

 

[Prince Myshkin]

I don't really see the relevance here.  Just because illegals may commit fewer crimes we should let them come in here illegally?

And is your goal the reduction of crime or the reduction of immigrants?

 

[Higgs]

 Still awesome

It NEVER gets old.  Sometimes I play it when I'm having a bad day. 

 

[NutterButter]

if the concern is minimizing crime, the finite amount of money that we do have should be focused on the segment of the population that commits the most crime.  

 

[ShamrockPride]

Wait.

Do you want illegal aliens accused of a crime to be deported or tried for their offenses?

I want all illegal aliens out. They're presence here is against the law, hence the term. Better to keep things simple.

 

[Higgs]

And is your goal the reduction of crime or the reduction of immigrants?

Neither.  My goal is the reduction of illegal immigration.  I can't for the life of me understand why the Left doesn't support this as well.  Can anyone explain it to me?

 

[Reg Lllama of Brixton]

I don't really see the relevance here.  Just because illegals may commit fewer crimes we should let them come in here illegally?

So I just shot the legs out from under your original point and that's the best you got?

Youre pathetic.

 

[Higgs]

So I just shot the legs out from under your original point and that's the best you got?

Youre pathetic.

Not really. 

 

[RBM]

And is your goal the reduction of crime or the reduction of immigrants?

You mean the reduction of illegal immigrants. 

 

[Prince Myshkin]

Neither.  My goal is the reduction of illegal immigration.  I can't for the life of me understand why the Left doesn't support this as well.  Can anyone explain it to me?

I apologize...I did mean to put illegal immigrants.

 

[tonydead]

if the concern is minimizing crime, the finite amount of money that we do have should be focused on the segment of the population that commits the most crime.  

Racist.  

 

[Prince Myshkin]

 My goal is the reduction of illegal immigration. 

Ok.  So if this is your goal, you need to find a better argument than dramatizing violent crimes committed by illegal immigrants.  Because a large portion of logical thinkers will take that argument, look at the statistics for crimes committed by illegal immigrants compared to other groups in our society, and come to the conclusion that there are other issues that can have a more positive impact on society.  

 

[Higgs]

Here's the question - who do you think has a higher crime rate - legal immigrants or illegal immigrants?

 

[Higgs]

Ok.  So if this is your goal, you need to find a better argument than dramatizing violent crimes committed by illegal immigrants.  Because a large portion of logical thinkers will take that argument, look at the statistics for crimes committed by illegal immigrants compared to other groups in our society, and come to the conclusion that there are other issues that can have a more positive impact on society.  

Can you give me a good reason for allowing illegal immigration?

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Here's the question - who do you think has a higher crime rate - legal immigrants or illegal immigrants?

Analyses of census data from 1980 through 2010 show that among men ages 18 to 49, immigrants were one-half to one-fifth as likely to be incarcerated as those born in the United States. Across all ages and sexes, about 7 percent of the nation’s population are noncitizens, while figures from the Justice Department show that about 5 percent of inmates in state and federal prisons are noncitizens.

 

[NutterButter]

Here's the question - who do you think has a higher crime rate - legal immigrants or illegal immigrants?

Illegals obviously.  But if you're talking about crime and you have the money to hire one additional law enforcement officer and you can have that law enforcement officer stationed in a part of this country that has high crime or you can have them hunting down illegals, which do you think is going to lead to less crime?

 

[ShamrockPride]

Can you give me a good reason for allowing illegal immigration?

Inb4 some kind of emotionally appealing response. Something that HITS THE FEELS!

 

[Reg Lllama of Brixton]

Not really. 

Yeah, really.  

Why didn't you start threads about these cases?

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2016/11/pastor_accused_of_raping_prete.html

http://www.click2houston.com/news/warrant-pastor-accused-of-raping-teen-said-god-would-kill-her-if-she-told

http://www.11alive.com/news/crime/youth-pastor-arrested-for-statutory-rape-molesting-teen-girl/379637889

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-church-youth-pastor-arrest-rape-20161109-story.html

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2017/03/21/after-coach-was-benched-over-gang-rape-his-substitute-allegedly-sexted-girl.html

http://www.poconorecord.com/news/20170303/former-stroudsburg-youth-wrestling-coach-charged-with-child-rape

http://www.ajc.com/news/crime--law/life-university-coach-faces-261-child-sex-charges/MHLMtahS2SXOC9IZVDm7sI/

http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2017/03/former_metairie_playground_coa_1.html

 

[Higgs]

Legals obviously?  But if you're talking about crime and you have the money to hire one additional law enforcement officer and you can have that law enforcement officer stationed in a part of this country that has high crime or you can have them hunting down illegals, which do you think is going to lead to less crime?

Is that your opinion or fact?  I would think illegals would be more likely to commit crimes for a number of obvious reasons (legals are vetted, they are set up for success, and they followed the rules in getting here which seems to imply better character).

 

[Prince Myshkin]

Here's the question - who do you think has a higher crime rate - legal immigrants or illegal immigrants?

I know the answer you are looking for here...you are going to say that all illegal immigrants are committing a crime so their rate is 100%.  Then you will pat yourself on the back, collect a sackful of likes from like-minded individuals, and say argument won...and if that's your point of view, fine.

But I, like most people (I think), see a huge difference in a misdemeanor and violent felonies.  If a person's only crime is escaping some hellhole to get to our country to try to make something of themselves, I really don't have much of a problem with that.  People that rape 14 year old girls, well I have a huge problem with that.  And it turns out that way more people that are here legally do things like rape 14 year olds than do illegal immigrants.  So if you want me to get on board with spending tons of time, money and effort removing illegal immigrants, it is going to take more than pointing to anecdotal stories of violent crimes committed by those illegal immigrants that don't match up with statistical analysis of violent crimes. 

 

[NutterButter]

Yeah, really.  

Why didn't you start threads about these cases?

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2016/11/pastor_accused_of_raping_prete.html

http://www.click2houston.com/news/warrant-pastor-accused-of-raping-teen-said-god-would-kill-her-if-she-told

http://www.11alive.com/news/crime/youth-pastor-arrested-for-statutory-rape-molesting-teen-girl/379637889

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-church-youth-pastor-arrest-rape-20161109-story.html

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2017/03/21/after-coach-was-benched-over-gang-rape-his-substitute-allegedly-sexted-girl.html

http://www.poconorecord.com/news/20170303/former-stroudsburg-youth-wrestling-coach-charged-with-child-rape

http://www.ajc.com/news/crime--law/life-university-coach-faces-261-child-sex-charges/MHLMtahS2SXOC9IZVDm7sI/

http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2017/03/former_metairie_playground_coa_1.html

He's already made it clear that he's all about the reduction in illegals and not about the reduction in crime.   Those links have nothing to do with illegals.

 

[Reg Lllama of Brixton]

I want all illegal aliens out. They're presence here is against the law, hence the term. Better to keep things simple.

Not what I asked

 

[Higgs]

Not what I asked.

 

[NutterButter]

Is that your opinion or fact?  I would think illegals would be more likely to commit crimes for a number of obvious reasons (legals are vetted, they are set up for success, and they followed the rules in getting here which seems to imply better character).

God dammit, I meant to say illegals.   I edited my post.

 

[Reg Lllama of Brixton]

Is that your opinion or fact?  I would think illegals would be more likely to commit crimes for a number of obvious reasons (legals are vetted, they are set up for success, and they followed the rules in getting here which seems to imply better character).

And yet you have no documentation to back this.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Not what I asked.

More like, not what you wanted to see. 

 

[Higgs]

I know the answer you are looking for here...you are going to say that all illegal immigrants are committing a crime so their rate is 100%.  Then you will pat yourself on the back, collect a sackful of likes from like-minded individuals, and say argument won...and if that's your point of view, fine.

Nope.  Exclude the illegal act of coming here.  Who is likely to commit more crimes - a legal immigrant or an illegal immigrant?

 

[Politician Spock]

Exactly. The status of their documents is completely irrelevant.

Disagree. For example, if you worked in a secured building, and were raped, if the rapist did not have clearance to be in the building, then the victim would have legal complaint against the buildings security management. 

 

[NutterButter]

And yet you have no documentation to back this.

I'd think it would be illegals as well, but that's beside the point if we're talking about crime reduction which I would think is the priority.   

 

[Higgs]

And yet you have no documentation to back this.

Right.  Because the Government doesn't track this stuff very well.  I wonder why?

 

[Prince Myshkin]

Can you give me a good reason for allowing illegal immigration?

From a quick google search:

Most arguments against illegal immigration begin with the premise that undocumented workers don't pay income taxes, and that they therefore take more in services than they contribute. However, IRS estimates that about 6 million unauthorized immigrants file individual income tax returns each year.[20] Research reviewed by the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office indicates that between 50 percent and 75 percent of unauthorized immigrants pay federal, state, and local taxes.[20] Illegal immigrants are estimated to pay in about $7 billion per year into Social Security.[30] In addition, they spend millions of dollars per year, which supports the US economy and helps to create new jobs. The Texas State Comptroller reported in 2006 that the 1.4 million illegal immigrants in Texas alone added almost $18 billion to the state's budget, and paid $1.2 billion in state services they used.[31]

The Social Security and Medicare contributions of illegal immigrants directly support older Americans, as illegal immigrants are not eligible to receive these services.[32] The Internal Revenue Service issues an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN) regardless of immigration status because both resident and nonresident aliens may have Federal tax return and payment responsibilities under the Internal Revenue Code. Federal tax law prohibits the IRS from sharing data with other government agencies including the INS. In 2006 1.4 million people used ITIN when filing taxes, of which more than half were illegal immigrants.[33]

Now, can you give me one good (i.e. financially feasible) way of "getting rid" of the illegal immigrants that are currently here?

 

[Zow]

I don't really see the relevance here.  Just because illegals may commit fewer crimes we should let them come in here illegally?

But isn't your point somehow that crime prevention is a rational basis to overturning the "catch and release" policy? Or are you just admitting that you're unfairly using this emotionally-charged red herring to support a political position?

 

[Higgs]

More like, not what you wanted to see. 

No.  I now believe that immigrants commit fewer crimes (though the tracking of the crimes sucks, which causes a lot of disagreement).

 

[Higgs]

From a quick google search:

Now, can you give me one good (i.e. financially feasible) way of "getting rid" of the illegal immigrants that are currently here?

Yes.  Get rid of catch and release.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

More like, not what you wanted to see. 

No.  I now believe that immigrants commit fewer crimes (though the tracking of the crimes sucks, which causes a lot of disagreement).

What about U.S. citizens raping 14-year-old girls?  You think that happens more often than illegal immigrants raping 14-year-old girls? 

Hint: It is not close

 

[Prince Myshkin]

Yes.  Get rid of catch and release.

what do you do with the ones you catch? and what percentage of illegal immigrants will that get rid of?  

 

[Higgs]

But isn't your point somehow that crime prevention is a rational basis to overturning the "catch and release" policy? Or are you just admitting that you're unfairly using this emotionally-charged red herring to support a political position?

My point is that illegal immigration should be enforced.  No more catch and release. No more sanctuary cities.  This does not mean we end legal immigration.  Just the opposite.  We can expand it.

 

[Reg Lllama of Brixton]

Right.  Because the Government doesn't track this stuff very well.  I wonder why?

Oh FFS

 

[NutterButter]

what do you do with the ones you catch? and what percentage of illegal immigrants will that get rid of?  

if only there was some stupid law that we could overturn to free up a lot more jail space.

 

[Higgs]

What about U.S. citizens raping 14-year-old girls?  You think that happens more often than illegal immigrants raping 14-year-old girls? 

Hint: It is not close

No doubt.  But in this particular case the illegal immigrant rape could easily have been prevented if they had simply returned him when he was caught entering illegally.

 

[Zow]

My point is that illegal immigration should be enforced.  No more catch and release. No more sanctuary cities.  This does not mean we end legal immigration.  Just the opposite.  We can expand it.

Then this is an illogical/intellectually dishonest way to make your point. 

 

[NutterButter]

Right.  Because the Government doesn't track this stuff very well.  I wonder why?

you were doing so well and then you had to go all right wing conspiracy theory.   

 

[Prince Myshkin]

My point is that illegal immigration should be enforced.  No more catch and release. No more sanctuary cities.  This does not mean we end legal immigration.  Just the opposite.  We can expand it.

So why did you choose to make that point with a thread title of "illegal immigrants rape 14 year old in Maryland high school"? 

You post a thread like that..."US should expand legal immigration but crack down on illegal immigration" and you would probably get very few arguments from those on the political left.  Instead you go with "illegal immigrants are child raping monsters" and turn people off immediately.  

 

[Doctor Detroit]

My point is that illegal immigration should be enforced.  No more catch and release. No more sanctuary cities.  This does not mean we end legal immigration.  Just the opposite.  We can expand it.

Again, you said before you are pretty close to "off the boat."  How would you feel if your people were treated the way you want the law to be enforced? 

I will tell you as a 3rd generation American I know what my people went through, you don't seem to have a clue.  It sucked, they were absolutely treated unfairly and your people wen through the same thing.  So to have your stance now, it's mind-boggling.  If you were some dumb slave-owning WASP i could understand, but you said you are of Irish/Italian origin.  Those people were treated like you are treating immigrants today.  It's terrible IMO.