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Illegal immigration (1 Viewer)

Higgs said:
What is your argument for not preventing illegal immigration?  So far I haven't heard one.
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First you can't prevent it in this environment. There is to much financial incentive for both workers and employers to stop it. What you could do is design a reasonable and robust guest worker program. Making it so that people could come here legally to work in the numbers our economy requires. Because it is clear we need these people to do what they do for us. That's the real way to handle the problem .

 
Higgs said:
Very poor arguments.  You do realize we can always increase legal immigration if the economy needs it.
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Actually you can't, because that's very hard to predict beforehand. If undocumented people come here in large numbers, that's a sign that our economy needs it.

 
Buddy Ball 2K3 said:
But yet they are still our laws. Should we all pick and choose which to follow and which not to and not expect any consequences? 
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No. All of our laws should be obeyed. Where you and I disagree, sharply, is on what the punishment should be.

All undocumented people here should absolutely be punished for breaking our laws. We agree on that. You want them punished with deportation. I think that is both impractical and an overpunishment for the crime involved.  I want them punished by paying a fine and not being allowed citizenship for the rest of their lives. (I would also deport all violent criminals AFTER they serve appropriate sentences in prison.)

 
timschochet said:
Actually you can't, because that's very hard to predict beforehand. If undocumented people come here in large numbers, that's a sign that our economy needs it.
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If only there were people to hire and transform the immigration department to handle this situation so that we could have people enter the country properly. Lets put Americans to work!

 
timschochet said:
No. All of our laws should be obeyed. Where you and I disagree, sharply, is on what the punishment should be.

All undocumented people here should absolutely be punished for breaking our laws. We agree on that. You want them punished with deportation. I think that is both impractical and an overpunishment for the crime involved.  I want them punished by paying a fine and not being allowed citizenship for the rest of their lives. (I would also deport all violent criminals AFTER they serve appropriate sentences in prison.)
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What does the law say should be the punishment for illegals that come here?

 
Buddy Ball 2K3 said:
If only there were people to hire and transform the immigration department to handle this situation so that we could have people enter the country properly. Lets put Americans to work!
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Agreed. But first we have to change the laws to allow anybody who is not a criminal or public health risk into this country just as we did before 1925.

 
Terrible thing.  And much like Obama used the pulse nightclub to promote his anti-gun leanings, the right is going to use this tragedy to push their agenda.  This of course despite the fact that the railed about Obama using tragedy to push policy.  

It's sick when either side does it.  

 
timschochet said:
We can't follow the laws until then. They're impractical. We can't deport 11 million people. Surely you get this.
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So are the marijuana laws in this country and so what? You want to change the immigration laws, that's great (and I agree), but we have laws, they need to be followed and if they aren't those who break them need to face the consequences. 

 
Buddy Ball 2K3 said:
So are the marijuana laws in this country and so what? You want to change the immigration laws, that's great (and I agree), but we have laws, they need to be followed and if they aren't those who break them need to face the consequences. 
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Like Sessions lying under oath?  Like that law? 

 
And all the legal residents who have committed such crimes?

please, the very nature of the title of this thread says all I need to know about the underlying motivation of the poster. 

Its base, its sad, it's a surface look at serious issues and demonstrates either a complete lack of understanding regarding the underlying issues or a bias through which that understanding is squashed.  

So, does @Higgs not understand the issue or isn't he biased? Because those are the only two options when you actually look at this issue in greater context. 

Not going to bother getting heated by whatever rhetoric is expected within this thread, but it does make it pretty clear as to the underlying motivations and beliefs of anyone who would use such a tact as this thread, with this title... because personally I do think Higgs is more than intelligent enough to see the underlying reality taking into consideration context and nuance. 

As such, the inflammatory nature of this is no better than typical anti-immigrant, xenophobic and small minded bull####. Fear mongering is the tool of weak minds to shade the opinion of other weak minds. 

Enjoy the thread. 

 
Don't bother. You can't debate Trolls who have no honest concern for this poor girl and only want to push their anti-brown agenda. They are goading you and manufacturing outrage directed at the wrong source. Arguing with them on any level makes them feel like they are winning.

Just walk away and leave them to their small, pathetic existence.

 
Sickens me as I have a daughter only a year younger.  And she's still very much just a little girl.  She still plays babies and American Girl dolls.  To think of something this tragic and violent happening to her deeply affects me.  Poor kid.  

 
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Chaka said:
Don't bother. You can't debate Trolls who have no honest concern for this poor girl and only want to push their anti-brown agenda. They are goading you and manufacturing outrage directed at the wrong source. Arguing with them on any level makes them feel like they are winning.

Just walk away and leave them to their small, pathetic existence.
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I strongly disagree with your use of the word troll. I think we may need to define that word better.

I couldn't disagree more with Buddy Ball on this issue, or Higgs or a few others, but they are NOT trolls. They come in here, offer their point of view, respond to arguments and questions and engage in debate and discussion. That's all I ask for.

A troll is somebody who makes provocative statements, usually insulting in nature, and then refuses to defend them.

 
BTW Buddy is pretty consistent on his application of laws need to be followed in my experience. And is a pretty reasonable guy. I wouldn't lump him with some others here that seem driven by different impulses.

My 2 cents

 
NCCommish said:
BTW Buddy is pretty consistent on his application of laws need to be followed in my experience. And is a pretty reasonable guy. I wouldn't lump him with some others here that seem driven by different impulses.

My 2 cents
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Thanks! To be clear, I don't agree with the immigration laws, I don't agree with the drug laws in this country either,  but they are the laws. I break a few laws myself and guess what, if I am caught I fully understand there will be some sort of consequence even if I disagree them. 

 
Buddy Ball 2K3 said:
Thanks! To be clear, I don't agree with the immigration laws, I don't agree with the drug laws in this country either,  but they are the laws. I break a few laws myself and guess what, if I am caught I fully understand there will be some sort of consequence even if I disagree them. 
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I break the pot laws pretty regularly. I understand that risk and I know the consequences. I have made that decision for myself. I will still hire an attorney should it come to court. But what happens is on me.

With that said this issue is a little different. Yes we must have laws. But we end up.punishing the weak and powerless while the powerful keep the lure out. So if we are going the punishment route those people work for someone. It is illegal to hire undocumented workers. Do we really think locking up the people who employ millions is palatable or even doable? Heck is it even reasonable? How do we feed ourselves then? How do we build housing? I think everyone would love it to be Americans doing it but that ship has largely sailed.

We need a new legal regime, yesterday.

 
timschochet said:
I strongly disagree with your use of the word troll. I think we may need to define that word better.

I couldn't disagree more with Buddy Ball on this issue, or Higgs or a few others, but they are NOT trolls. They come in here, offer their point of view, respond to arguments and questions and engage in debate and discussion. That's all I ask for.

A troll is somebody who makes provocative statements, usually insulting in nature, and then refuses to defend them.
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I didn't name anyone guy.

But being a regular doesn't preclude one from being a troll. It is also possible to be an otherwise reasonable person but troll on a specific issue (or issues).

 
Koya said:
And all the legal residents who have committed such crimes?

please, the very nature of the title of this thread says all I need to know about the underlying motivation of the poster. 

Its base, its sad, it's a surface look at serious issues and demonstrates either a complete lack of understanding regarding the underlying issues or a bias through which that understanding is squashed.  

So, does @Higgs not understand the issue or isn't he biased? Because those are the only two options when you actually look at this issue in greater context. 

Not going to bother getting heated by whatever rhetoric is expected within this thread, but it does make it pretty clear as to the underlying motivations and beliefs of anyone who would use such a tact as this thread, with this title... because personally I do think Higgs is more than intelligent enough to see the underlying reality taking into consideration context and nuance. 

As such, the inflammatory nature of this is no better than typical anti-immigrant, xenophobic and small minded bull####. Fear mongering is the tool of weak minds to shade the opinion of other weak minds. 

Enjoy the thread. 
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:lmao:

That's a lot of words to announce you aren't interested in the thread but couldn't resist more insults. 

 
NCCommish said:
I break the pot laws pretty regularly. I understand that risk and I know the consequences. I have made that decision for myself. I will still hire an attorney should it come to court. But what happens is on me.

With that said this issue is a little different. Yes we must have laws. But we end up.punishing the weak and powerless while the powerful keep the lure out. So if we are going the punishment route those people work for someone. It is illegal to hire undocumented workers. Do we really think locking up the people who employ millions is palatable or even doable? Heck is it even reasonable? How do we feed ourselves then? How do we build housing? I think everyone would love it to be Americans doing it but that ship has largely sailed.

We need a new legal regime, yesterday.
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IMO that is because we keep voting in the same politicians over and over and over and expect things to change. I am not a Trump guy but I do love that both the establishment republicans and dems hate him.

 
Chaka said:
Great example right here.
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You attempt to smear one side by saying they only care about pushing their "anti brown agenda". I'm saying people like you are only worried about protecting your pro illegal agenda.  Who's argument would have protected this particular child? 

 
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RBM said:
You attempt to smear one side by saying they only care about pushing their "anti brown agenda". I'm saying people like you are only worried about protecting your pro illegal agenda.  Who's argument would have protected this particular child? 
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There is a large population of Irish illegal immigrants in the northeast. Brown/white/purple the color doesn't matter

 
Where are all the protestors? The people in ##### hats thinks "women's rights" are important but not a little girl? Where are they? 

 
RBM said:
You attempt to smear one side by saying they only care about pushing their "anti brown agenda". I'm saying people like you are only worried about protecting your anti illegal agenda.  Who's argument would have protected this particular child? 
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You are a regular, reasonable poster but I am you're certain that no amount of reasonable discussion will have an impact here so I'm not going to play your game.

 
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RBM said:
You attempt to smear one side by saying they only care about pushing their "anti brown agenda". I'm saying people like you are only worried about protecting your pro illegal agenda.  Who's argument would have protected this particular child? 
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Maybe these two criminals were emboldened by Trump's misogyny.  Maybe they thought they were stars and they could do whatever they wanted.  

 
RBM said:
Don't bother. These radical alt leftists don't care about her. Saving her just wouldn't be worth it to their sick agenda. 
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In the same hour this girl was being raped on average 9 other girls age 12 and over were being raped. And that number is low given that upwards of 50% of rapes go unreported. That doesn't mitigate the terrible thing that happened to her. That guy should go to jail forever. But it would.be nice to acknowledge that in this country her story is not a one off and those other 9 rapes were commited by citizens given what we know from statistics. Oh since the reporting and examine takes several hours before she got home a couple dozen more were raped that we know of. This is an epidemic and yet often the same people so concerned about it when it's an undocumented suspect Pooh Pooh college women who have a drink. Or find that young girl probably led the guy on. Or maybe she should have dressed differently. Its an interesting phenomenon isn't it? 

 
Koya said:
And all the legal residents who have committed such crimes?

please, the very nature of the title of this thread says all I need to know about the underlying motivation of the poster. 

Its base, its sad, it's a surface look at serious issues and demonstrates either a complete lack of understanding regarding the underlying issues or a bias through which that understanding is squashed.  

So, does @Higgs not understand the issue or isn't he biased? Because those are the only two options when you actually look at this issue in greater context. 

Not going to bother getting heated by whatever rhetoric is expected within this thread, but it does make it pretty clear as to the underlying motivations and beliefs of anyone who would use such a tact as this thread, with this title... because personally I do think Higgs is more than intelligent enough to see the underlying reality taking into consideration context and nuance. 

As such, the inflammatory nature of this is no better than typical anti-immigrant, xenophobic and small minded bull####. Fear mongering is the tool of weak minds to shade the opinion of other weak minds. 

Enjoy the thread. 
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You obviously haven't read my posts, all of which are reasonable.  Please point me to one post that is uninformed or incorrect.

The fact remains that if Obama's dumb catch and release law hadn't' have been in effect, this girl wouldn't have been raped.  I'm still waiting for someone - anyone - to justify catch and release.  Care to try @Koya ?

 
NCCommish said:
In the same hour this girl was being raped on average 9 other girls age 12 and over were being raped. And that number is low given that upwards of 50% of rapes go unreported. That doesn't mitigate the terrible thing that happened to her. That guy should go to jail forever. But it would.be nice to acknowledge that in this country her story is not a one off and those other 9 rapes were commited by citizens given what we know from statistics. Oh since the reporting and examine takes several hours before she got home a couple dozen more were raped that we know of. This is an epidemic and yet often the same people so concerned about it when it's an undocumented suspect Pooh Pooh college women who have a drink. Or find that young girl probably led the guy on. Or maybe she should have dressed differently. Its an interesting phenomenon isn't it? 
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Sad stats.  

 
Chaka said:
Don't bother. You can't debate Trolls who have no honest concern for this poor girl and only want to push their anti-brown agenda. They are goading you and manufacturing outrage directed at the wrong source. Arguing with them on any level makes them feel like they are winning.

Just walk away and leave them to their small, pathetic existence.
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Aka - we have no chance to win this argument so let's call them racists and hightail it outta here.  :lmao:

 
NCCommish said:
In the same hour this girl was being raped on average 9 other girls age 12 and over were being raped. And that number is low given that upwards of 50% of rapes go unreported. That doesn't mitigate the terrible thing that happened to her. That guy should go to jail forever. But it would.be nice to acknowledge that in this country her story is not a one off and those other 9 rapes were commited by citizens given what we know from statistics. Oh since the reporting and examine takes several hours before she got home a couple dozen more were raped that we know of. This is an epidemic and yet often the same people so concerned about it when it's an undocumented suspect Pooh Pooh college women who have a drink. Or find that young girl probably led the guy on. Or maybe she should have dressed differently. Its an interesting phenomenon isn't it? 
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Do you see anyone in here not acknowledging this?  Not sure what your point is. Because it happens often we shouldn't do what we can to prevent any?

 
NCCommish said:
In the same hour this girl was being raped on average 9 other girls age 12 and over were being raped. And that number is low given that upwards of 50% of rapes go unreported. That doesn't mitigate the terrible thing that happened to her. That guy should go to jail forever. But it would.be nice to acknowledge that in this country her story is not a one off and those other 9 rapes were commited by citizens given what we know from statistics. Oh since the reporting and examine takes several hours before she got home a couple dozen more were raped that we know of. This is an epidemic and yet often the same people so concerned about it when it's an undocumented suspect Pooh Pooh college women who have a drink. Or find that young girl probably led the guy on. Or maybe she should have dressed differently. Its an interesting phenomenon isn't it? 
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This is the fallacy of relative privation. Many are quick to point this out on other topics, such as transgender rights (just because people are stoned for their sexuality in other countries, doesn't mean we shouldn't work for rights in the USA).

just because many suffer in the USA doesn't diminish what happened to this girl. Even more so when there are laws that would have prevented this singular tragedy.

 
RBM said:
Do you see anyone in here not acknowledging this?  Not sure what your point is. Because it happens often we shouldn't do what we can to prevent any?
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Do you really see anyone here pretending what this guy did wasn't heinous? Do you really think those of us on the other side of the immigration issue don't care about this poor girl because we think we need an actual workable solution to undocumented workers?

 
NCCommish said:
You asked me to defend my position on immigration. I did. Would you like to comment on it?
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What, where I asked, "What is your argument for not preventing illegal immigration?" and you answered, "you can't"?  That shows me you haven't read much on this and are just lobbing grenades.  Because there are some very easy things we can do.  Number one - if we catch an illegal after crossing the border don't just ####### let them go.

The rest of your post on expanding legal immigration is what I have been advocating for, so we're in agreement there.

 
Higgs said:
You obviously haven't read my posts, all of which are reasonable.  Please point me to one post that is uninformed or incorrect.

The fact remains that if Obama's dumb catch and release law hadn't' have been in effect, this girl wouldn't have been raped.  I'm still waiting for someone - anyone - to justify catch and release.  Care to try @Koya ?
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1.  "Catch and release" is not a law and it's not Obama's. It's a policy employed by a number of administrations, including Obama's (and Trump's, so far). You want someone to point you to a post that is uninformed or incorrect, there you go.  Literally the next sentence of your post after you made the request.

2.  The "justification" is a practical one. You can't deport people without due process and there's simply not enough detention centers to detain them all.

 
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