Interesting take on Favre (1 Viewer)

[Beergogglz]

Overhyped: Favre didn't deliver in second half of career

By Sal Paolantonio

We interrupt the continued deification of Brett Favre -- a first-ballot Hall of Famer and the most durable player in NFL history -- with the following reality check.

Yes, Favre played long enough to throw the most touchdown passes and collect the most wins by an NFL quarterback. But let's examine the second half of No. 4's career. The truth is, Favre did little over the past decade to earn the gushing praise heaped upon him by our fawning brethren in the media. In his 17 seasons, Brett Favre set numerous NFL records, including most yards passing (61,655) and most touchdowns (442).

But do those numbers, combined with Favre's three MVP awards and one Super Bowl victory, put him among the top 10 quarterbacks of all time?

Recently, ESPN.com's Mike Sando and Football Outsiders' Aaron Schatz examined the best-ever debate.

After beating the San Francisco 49ers in the 1997 NFC Championship Game, Favre won just three of his last 10 playoff games. Eli Manning had more postseason wins in a 29-day span this past season than Favre had in his last decade with the Green Bay Packers.

Yes, Favre won a Super Bowl -- 11 years ago! But as his career arc spiraled downward, the blind adulation only got worse.

Favre's passer rating in his last 12 postseason games was a pedestrian 77.8. In his last five wild-card games, he went 2-3 with more interceptions (nine) than touchdown passes (seven). In his last three divisional playoff games, he went 1-2 with seven TDs and seven interceptions. That's a 3-5 record with 14 touchdown passes and 16 picks.

In two of his last four postseason appearances, Favre threw two of the most unthinkable playoff interceptions in NFL history, both in overtime -- to Brian Dawkins of the Philadelphia Eagles in 2003 and to Corey Webster of the New York Giants in January. In fact, Favre is the only quarterback in NFL history to throw overtime interceptions in two playoff games. In his last nine playoff games, Favre threw 18 interceptions.

In the first 81 years of the Green Bay franchise, the most hallowed in all of pro football, the Packers were 13-0 at home in the postseason. But since 2002, the Packers have gone 2-3 in playoff games at Lambeau Field, with Favre losing to three not-quite Hall of Fame quarterbacks: Michael Vick, Daunte Culpepper and Manning.

If Manning had a decade like that, he'd be run out of New York. If Philip Rivers kept chucking ridiculous overtime interceptions in the postseason, he would be branded a first-round bust. If Drew Brees came up short in three out of five home playoff games, he'd be mocked.

But no matter how many dumb passes he threw and how many playoff games he lost, Favre remains immune to criticism.

Favre isn't even the greatest quarterback in the history of the Packers. It's not even close. Bart Starr won five NFL championships -- four more than Favre -- and retired as the NFL's most accurate passer.

Oh, you say Starr was surrounded by a Hall of Fame roster with a legendary coach. But Starr still is the NFL record holder with a 104.8 career playoff passer rating, nearly 20 points higher than Favre's. That wasn't Vince Lombardi or Ray Nitschke throwing those passes for Starr, whose career postseason passer rating, by the way, is 38 points higher than Johnny Unitas'.

Favre's career playoff record was 12-10. Starr's was 9-1 -- without the benefit of wild-card games. Favre threw 28 interceptions in 22 playoff games. Starr threw three in 10. Think about that -- just three picks in 213 postseason attempts.

But Bart Starr gets the Ringo Starr treatment -- underappreciated and overlooked. Favre gets put on a pedestal. Yes, he had a Pro Bowl season in 2007 with the youngest roster in the NFL. But his final moment on Lambeau Field was a wildly errant pass that turned into the NFC title for the Giants.

Indeed, a decade after his last moments of glory, the football hype machine continues to paint Favre as a hallowed icon of Americana, a symbol of all that is right with sports, a Wild West gun-slinging good ol' boy. There's Brett on the farm! There's Brett with his family! There's Brett on the cover of Sports Illustrated! There's Brett throwing another overtime interception!

Favre was among the best in the game, once upon a time. Those days are long gone. Only the idolatry remains.

 

[Da Guru]

Farve really never played well in the postseason after the SuperBowl win. At times downright lousy!

That being said, i always liked watching him play.

 

[DarabZarrabi]

John Madden would kill himself if he read this article

 

[tec79]

an interesting take on Favre, one I would caution is from the perspective of a guy who often reported from the Bucs and Pats perspectives and rarely ever had any thing positive to say about Favre or the Packers....

One thing that guys like this author and others fail to mention is this-

Joe Montana had J Rice, how many HOF WR's did Favre ever have? He consistently made plays with whatever WR corps he had at hand.....he hasnt ever had any HOF WR to play with. Some had potential but never achieved it because of injury (Brooks?), diiminishing talent (Freeman) .....right now he had D Driver who is good but probably not HOF material. then there are all the Bill Schroeders and Kittrick Taylors he played with.....enough said on that!!

Other than the Super Bowl seasons of 1996 and 1997 the Packers have never had a complete team that was a real Super Bowl lock, they were contenders now and again, but it wasnt until 2007 that they had a team that had the talent on both sides of the ball that could have gotten them to the SuperBowl.

For 10 years after the second SB he played in, Favre was THE reason those teams even had a shot at the Playoffs much less the Super Bowl. His teams relied upon him to guide them, they won or lost on his shoulders, or more appropriately, his arm.....

Look at any QB's career, Montana-Marino-Starr-Bradshaw-Aikman-etc the last XX #of years show declines, so to single Favre out for that is grasping at straws. So Sal, your opinion is what its always been worth....not much....

Bottom line is this.....listen to his press conference where he states he knows he can still play, but he is mentally worn out......

His career stands for what it is.....he is undoubtedly a top 3 to 5 QB of all time...but in this fan's perspective he is perhaps the best FOOTBALL PLAYER of this and perhaps any generation....

tex

 

[the Jag Zone]

must have been composed by some clown that thinks Dan Marino is the best of all time..

what a farce..

I love these idiots...

yes I said "idiots", that have never played a down of Football.. (probably at any level) ..in their life yet they can say Favre isn't an all time top 10 QB..

..it's the entire body of work people.. ...look at the entire body of work!!

 

[trader jake]

Criticism of the second half of Favre's career is valid but this article seems to cross the line a bit. It seems like the heap praised on Favre by some is the real issue Sal wants to discuss.

 

[Raider Nation]

Sal listed Farve as one of the most overrated players in the NFL in his book which came out prior to the 2007 season. When Farve rebounded with a great season this past year, people piled on SalPal. He's just taking one last chance for a shot at Brett, after losing to NY.

 

[Lott's Fingertip]

Criticism of the second half of Favre's career is valid but this article seems to cross the line a bit. It seems like the heap praised on Favre by some is the real issue Sal wants to discuss.

I agree with this.Also, what is rarely brought up in these types of discussions, or is only superficially mentioned, is that football is a team game. The QB is the most important part, but not the only important part. Championships, especially, are due to a team effort much more than one individual's effort, IMO.Sounds like the writer had a rather biased opinion.

 

[the Jag Zone]

Also, what is rarely brought up in these types of discussions, or is only superficially mentioned, is that football is a team game. The QB is the most important part, but not the only important part. Championships, especially, are due to a team effort much more than one individual's effort, IMO.

I agree as well.. too many want to measure greatness by rings and stats.. give Me a Leader who shows up to work everyday..even in pain.. one who busts his ### every time he steps on the field... one who can get the most out of what he has to work with... 2 names come to mind when factoring "everything" into the greatest QB equation.. John Elway and Brett Favre.. and that is a very unbiased opinion as I am in no way a fan of either of their Franchises.. but their accomplishments over time figuring in with what they had to work with, the longevity in which they endured... and also taking into account each ones' style of play are second to none IMO...

 

[poopdawg]

I would certainly put Favre in the discussion as the top 10 QBs to ever play the game, and I loved to watch him play, but to say he is the greatest QB of alltime (as some have said) is foolish. Alot of what he has accomplished is due to his durability. In any case, love em or hate em, he is an amazing athlete.

 

[the Jag Zone]

I would certainly put Favre in the discussion as the top 10 QBs to ever play the game, and I loved to watch him play, but to say he is the greatest QB of alltime (as some have said) is foolish. Alot of what he has accomplished is due to his durability. In any case, love em or hate em, he is an amazing athlete.

I'm going to clarify here... I'm not saying Favre is the best of all time.. but total body of work.. he's no worse than top 3-5...it's a very hard call.. I believe Elway has set the standard.. and I don't care if Montana or Bradshaw have 10 rings...

 

[poopdawg]

I would certainly put Favre in the discussion as the top 10 QBs to ever play the game, and I loved to watch him play, but to say he is the greatest QB of alltime (as some have said) is foolish. Alot of what he has accomplished is due to his durability. In any case, love em or hate em, he is an amazing athlete.

I'm going to clarify here... I'm not saying Favre is the best of all time.. but total body of work.. he's no worse than top 3-5...it's a very hard call.. I believe Elway has set the standard.. and I don't care if Montana or Bradshaw have 10 rings...

No, I agree with you. And I can even understand an argument as one of the top 5 QBs even.

 

[TheLastDispatch]

 

[Beergogglz]

I would certainly put Favre in the discussion as the top 10 QBs to ever play the game, and I loved to watch him play, but to say he is the greatest QB of alltime (as some have said) is foolish. Alot of what he has accomplished is due to his durability. In any case, love em or hate em, he is an amazing athlete.

I'm going to clarify here... I'm not saying Favre is the best of all time.. but total body of work.. he's no worse than top 3-5...it's a very hard call.. I believe Elway has set the standard.. and I don't care if Montana or Bradshaw have 10 rings...

For my money, I wouldn't be calling on Favre to lead a last minute drive in a big game, career stats or not. His gunslinger mentality that so many admire is one of his biggest flaws, as we have seen many a time. Game management, until this past year, was never a strong suit for him. Come to think of it, perhaps what led to him saying he was mentally drained was the fact that MM had a short leash on him the past couple of years in that respect.....FWIW, I agree that he's an unquestioned top 10 QB all time and a first ballot HOFer.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Overhyped: Favre didn't deliver in second half of career

By Sal Paolantonio

We interrupt the continued deification of Brett Favre -- a first-ballot Hall of Famer and the most durable player in NFL history -- with the following reality check.

Yes, Favre played long enough to throw the most touchdown passes and collect the most wins by an NFL quarterback. But let's examine the second half of No. 4's career. The truth is, Favre did little over the past decade to earn the gushing praise heaped upon him by our fawning brethren in the media. In his 17 seasons, Brett Favre set numerous NFL records, including most yards passing (61,655) and most touchdowns (442).

But do those numbers, combined with Favre's three MVP awards and one Super Bowl victory, put him among the top 10 quarterbacks of all time?

Recently, ESPN.com's Mike Sando and Football Outsiders' Aaron Schatz examined the best-ever debate.

After beating the San Francisco 49ers in the 1997 NFC Championship Game, Favre won just three of his last 10 playoff games. Eli Manning had more postseason wins in a 29-day span this past season than Favre had in his last decade with the Green Bay Packers.

Yes, Favre won a Super Bowl -- 11 years ago! But as his career arc spiraled downward, the blind adulation only got worse.

Favre's passer rating in his last 12 postseason games was a pedestrian 77.8. In his last five wild-card games, he went 2-3 with more interceptions (nine) than touchdown passes (seven). In his last three divisional playoff games, he went 1-2 with seven TDs and seven interceptions. That's a 3-5 record with 14 touchdown passes and 16 picks.

In two of his last four postseason appearances, Favre threw two of the most unthinkable playoff interceptions in NFL history, both in overtime -- to Brian Dawkins of the Philadelphia Eagles in 2003 and to Corey Webster of the New York Giants in January. In fact, Favre is the only quarterback in NFL history to throw overtime interceptions in two playoff games. In his last nine playoff games, Favre threw 18 interceptions.

In the first 81 years of the Green Bay franchise, the most hallowed in all of pro football, the Packers were 13-0 at home in the postseason. But since 2002, the Packers have gone 2-3 in playoff games at Lambeau Field, with Favre losing to three not-quite Hall of Fame quarterbacks: Michael Vick, Daunte Culpepper and Manning.

If Manning had a decade like that, he'd be run out of New York. If Philip Rivers kept chucking ridiculous overtime interceptions in the postseason, he would be branded a first-round bust. If Drew Brees came up short in three out of five home playoff games, he'd be mocked.

But no matter how many dumb passes he threw and how many playoff games he lost, Favre remains immune to criticism.

Favre isn't even the greatest quarterback in the history of the Packers. It's not even close. Bart Starr won five NFL championships -- four more than Favre -- and retired as the NFL's most accurate passer.

Oh, you say Starr was surrounded by a Hall of Fame roster with a legendary coach. But Starr still is the NFL record holder with a 104.8 career playoff passer rating, nearly 20 points higher than Favre's. That wasn't Vince Lombardi or Ray Nitschke throwing those passes for Starr, whose career postseason passer rating, by the way, is 38 points higher than Johnny Unitas'.

Favre's career playoff record was 12-10. Starr's was 9-1 -- without the benefit of wild-card games. Favre threw 28 interceptions in 22 playoff games. Starr threw three in 10. Think about that -- just three picks in 213 postseason attempts.

But Bart Starr gets the Ringo Starr treatment -- underappreciated and overlooked. Favre gets put on a pedestal. Yes, he had a Pro Bowl season in 2007 with the youngest roster in the NFL. But his final moment on Lambeau Field was a wildly errant pass that turned into the NFC title for the Giants.

Indeed, a decade after his last moments of glory, the football hype machine continues to paint Favre as a hallowed icon of Americana, a symbol of all that is right with sports, a Wild West gun-slinging good ol' boy. There's Brett on the farm! There's Brett with his family! There's Brett on the cover of Sports Illustrated! There's Brett throwing another overtime interception!

Favre was among the best in the game, once upon a time. Those days are long gone. Only the idolatry remains.

I think there is some validity to article, but the support just isn't there IMO. The validity is that favre made some of the dumbest decisions you will ever see made by a QB who is trying to be ranked as one of the best QB's ever. he simply gave games away that others who he is compared to never did (throwing picks while winning and going in for a 2 score lead type stuff). However, Favre's durability of not even needing a backup is incredibly valuable and the guy could still play at a great level. It is not a coincidence that he won a SB with fantastic talent around him (had a #1 defense that played well throughout the playoffs) and he struggled when the talent was just making the playoff level.People give too much credit to the QB for winning and too much blame when teams lose. Football is the ultimate team sport, but picking one one player (even if the player is the most important ONE player) is just an easy place to point the blame.

Pointing to Starr's QB rating or the titles just doesn't have much validity to me. It is pretty easy to have a high completion % when your team is winning, running the ball effectively and your defense is shutting the other team down. What IS very hard is to have a defense letting up scores all day long, no running attack to take the pressure off and when you MUST score to keep up with the other teams offense. Now I never really watched a lot of Bart Starr, but was he that much different than Griese who had similar luxuries?

 

[Liquid Tension]

Criticism of the second half of Favre's career is valid but this article seems to cross the line a bit. It seems like the heap praised on Favre by some is the real issue Sal wants to discuss.

I agree with this.Also, what is rarely brought up in these types of discussions, or is only superficially mentioned, is that football is a team game. The QB is the most important part, but not the only important part. Championships, especially, are due to a team effort much more than one individual's effort, IMO.Sounds like the writer had a rather biased opinion.

Someone who gets it!!!My sig was basically put together to talk to this. QB's aren't going anywhere without a running attack and some defense. Of course having some protection and WR's helps as well. Oh and don't forget the importance of special teams and coaching....and cheerleaders

 

[FavreCo]

Criticism of the second half of Favre's career is valid but this article seems to cross the line a bit. It seems like the heap praised on Favre by some is the real issue Sal wants to discuss.

Yep it's valid. Horrid throw against Philly years back. I just shook my head on that one. Bad throw AND decision vs the Giants too. However he forgot to mention one thing. Favre was able to get the Packers to the playoffs with teams that weren't playoff caliber. It's only logical that they would lose once they got there. Sal got his ### handed to him because Favre was surrounded by one of the best offensive teams he has had and he made Sal look like an idiot.

 

[Chicago Hooligan]

He had one losing season when he took over the job, and one a couple seasons ago - and that's all. That's amazing. It's pretty damn hard to win games, let alone playoff games, in the NFL.

Most overrated pro athletes are so because of their inconsistencies. Favre was consistent, and consistently very good. There are a lot of teams that would love to have played 10 playoff games in these 10 years.

 

[bostonfred]

Favre led his team to a Superbowl win, followed it with another Superbowl appearance against Elway, and then lost in the playoffs to Steve Young in his final huge year. I don't think anyone could argue with that. After that, the team around him went to pot, and his #1 receivers were mediocre talents like Donald Driver and Bill Schroeder. Javon Walker looks like a world beater compared to those guys, and Favre only had him during his second and third years. Even this year, he had the youngest team in the NFL around him, and he still led them to one of the best records in the NFL. You can point to his playoff INTs, but the fact that they made the playoffs in eleven of sixteen seasons is pretty impressive. The Packers had only one losing season the entire time he was there, went 171-85 in the regular season and 12-10 in the postseason while setting virtually every career passing record. And from the first game he played for the Packers, he started every single game. Where does his career place in history? Hard to say, especially with the current guys. But I don't care how negative a case you want to make for him, he's one of, if not the, best of all time.

 

[the Jag Zone]

Favre led his team to a Superbowl win, followed it with another Superbowl appearance against Elway, and then lost in the playoffs to Steve Young in his final huge year. I don't think anyone could argue with that. After that, the team around him went to pot, and his #1 receivers were mediocre talents like Donald Driver and Bill Schroeder. Javon Walker looks like a world beater compared to those guys, and Favre only had him during his second and third years. Even this year, he had the youngest team in the NFL around him, and he still led them to one of the best records in the NFL. You can point to his playoff INTs, but the fact that they made the playoffs in eleven of sixteen seasons is pretty impressive. The Packers had only one losing season the entire time he was there, went 171-85 in the regular season and 12-10 in the postseason while setting virtually every career passing record. And from the first game he played for the Packers, he started every single game. Where does his career place in history? Hard to say, especially with the current guys. But I don't care how negative a case you want to make for him, he's one of, if not the, best of all time.

..here here...!!!!!

 

[Ghost Rider]

Some good points were made in that article, but if he is going to point out Favre's lack of playoff wins over the last few years, he needs to point out how outstanding his playoff win total was the first few years. Over the first 7 years of Favre's career, his playoff record was 9-4. By comparison, here is what the W/L record was for the first 7 years of their careers and then their whole career of Favre and other QBs of the last 25-30 years that he is often compared to:

Favre 9-4 (1 Super Bowl win) / 12-10

Montana 7-2 (2 Super Bowl win) / 16-7

Elway 6-5 (0 Super Bowl wins) / 14-8

Marino 3-3 (0 Super Bowl wins) / 8-10

Brady 12-2 (3 Super Bowl wins) / 14-3 (still active)

Manning 3-5 (0 Super Bowl wins) / 7-7 (still active)

So, Favre won more playoff games than any of those QBs except for Brady in the first 7 years of his career, and won a Super Bowl, something three of those guys didn't do, but I guess we are just supposed to focus on his playoff failures of the past few years. Yeah, that makes sense.

 

[Team Tosh]

Some good points were made in that article, but if he is going to point out Favre's lack of playoff wins over the last few years, he needs to point out how outstanding his playoff win total was the first few years. Over the first 7 years of Favre's career, his playoff record was 9-4. By comparison, here is what the W/L record was for the first 7 years of their careers and then their whole career of Favre and other QBs of the last 25-30 years that he is often compared to:Favre 9-4 (1 Super Bowl win) / 12-10Montana 7-2 (2 Super Bowl win) / 16-7Elway 6-5 (0 Super Bowl wins) / 14-8Marino 3-3 (0 Super Bowl wins) / 8-10Brady 12-2 (3 Super Bowl wins) / 14-3 (still active)Manning 3-5 (0 Super Bowl wins) / 7-7 (still active)So, Favre won more playoff games than any of those QBs except for Brady in the first 7 years of his career, and won a Super Bowl, something three of those guys didn't do, but I guess we are just supposed to focus on his playoff failures of the past few years. Yeah, that makes sense.

Another thing to consider is who his coach and GM was during many of those playoff loses. Other than Ahman Green, Sherman drafted poorly and didn't bring in any talent to this team. Had Wolf stayed with this team a little longer I think we would have seen more successful playoff runs.

 

[TheLastDispatch]

Some good points were made in that article, but if he is going to point out Favre's lack of playoff wins over the last few years, he needs to point out how outstanding his playoff win total was the first few years. Over the first 7 years of Favre's career, his playoff record was 9-4. By comparison, here is what the W/L record was for the first 7 years of their careers and then their whole career of Favre and other QBs of the last 25-30 years that he is often compared to:Favre 9-4 (1 Super Bowl win) / 12-10Montana 7-2 (2 Super Bowl win) / 16-7Elway 6-5 (0 Super Bowl wins) / 14-8Marino 3-3 (0 Super Bowl wins) / 8-10Brady 12-2 (3 Super Bowl wins) / 14-3 (still active)Manning 3-5 (0 Super Bowl wins) / 7-7 (still active)So, Favre won more playoff games than any of those QBs except for Brady in the first 7 years of his career, and won a Super Bowl, something three of those guys didn't do, but I guess we are just supposed to focus on his playoff failures of the past few years. Yeah, that makes sense.

I think you missed the point of the article. Sal isn't saying Favre sucked, he's saying he hasn't been as good during the back half of his career as he was in the front half. He's saying he's been overhyped the last few years due to how good he was in the front half of his career.

 

[Challenge Everything]

I, for one, would not trade any NFL player in the past 16 seasons for what they "could have" brought to the table instead of what we received with Brett Favre. You take the good with the bad and Favre's passes won many more games for the Packers than they lost for the Packers. Anybody, homer or hater alike, that says Favre was a detriment to the team at any time does not realize, or want to admit, that the team would not have been there, at that moment, without Favre at the helm.

Favre had one year, as well as the Packers, that was not .500% and that year was riddled with injuries. Any other QB in the past 16 years has not had that type of record and no other QB has that accomplishment. Truly remarkable and I am trying to remember and cherish everything with a frog in my throat while doing it.

 

[Team Tosh]

I, for one, would not trade any NFL player in the past 16 seasons for what they "could have" brought to the table instead of what we received with Brett Favre. You take the good with the bad and Favre's passes won many more games for the Packers than they lost for the Packers. Anybody, homer or hater alike, that says Favre was a detriment to the team at any time does not realize, or want to admit, that the team would not have been there, at that moment, without Favre at the helm. Favre had one year, as well as the Packers, that was not .500% and that year was riddled with injuries. Any other QB in the past 16 years has not had that type of record and no other QB has that accomplishment. Truly remarkable and I am trying to remember and cherish everything with a frog in my throat while doing it.

 

[SuperJohn96]

must have been composed by some clown that thinks Dan Marino is the best of all time..what a farce..I love these idiots... yes I said "idiots", that have never played a down of Football.. (probably at any level) ..in their life yet they can say Favre isn't an all time top 10 QB....it's the entire body of work people.. ...look at the entire body of work!!

Not for nothing, but if a guy who never played football in his life isn't qualified to say that Favre isn't an all time top 10 QB, then you must also be saying that anyone who is a proponent of Favre who never played football in their life is just as unqualified to say that Favre IS an all time top 10 QB, right?Just saying...

 

[the Jag Zone]

must have been composed by some clown that thinks Dan Marino is the best of all time..what a farce..I love these idiots... yes I said "idiots", that have never played a down of Football.. (probably at any level) ..in their life yet they can say Favre isn't an all time top 10 QB....it's the entire body of work people.. ...look at the entire body of work!!

Not for nothing, but if a guy who never played football in his life isn't qualified to say that Favre isn't an all time top 10 QB, then you must also be saying that anyone who is a proponent of Favre who never played football in their life is just as unqualified to say that Favre IS an all time top 10 QB, right?Just saying...

I'd say so...

 

[SuperJohn96]

must have been composed by some clown that thinks Dan Marino is the best of all time..what a farce..I love these idiots... yes I said "idiots", that have never played a down of Football.. (probably at any level) ..in their life yet they can say Favre isn't an all time top 10 QB....it's the entire body of work people.. ...look at the entire body of work!!

Not for nothing, but if a guy who never played football in his life isn't qualified to say that Favre isn't an all time top 10 QB, then you must also be saying that anyone who is a proponent of Favre who never played football in their life is just as unqualified to say that Favre IS an all time top 10 QB, right?Just saying...

I'd say so...

So maybe we should have it under our usernames if we've played football or not. Then anybody who hasn't won't be allowed to post opinions on football players. That sounds reasonable.:rollseyes:

 

[the Jag Zone]

must have been composed by some clown that thinks Dan Marino is the best of all time..what a farce..I love these idiots... yes I said "idiots", that have never played a down of Football.. (probably at any level) ..in their life yet they can say Favre isn't an all time top 10 QB....it's the entire body of work people.. ...look at the entire body of work!!

Not for nothing, but if a guy who never played football in his life isn't qualified to say that Favre isn't an all time top 10 QB, then you must also be saying that anyone who is a proponent of Favre who never played football in their life is just as unqualified to say that Favre IS an all time top 10 QB, right?Just saying.....

I'd say so...

So maybe we should have it under our usernames if we've played football or not. Then anybody who hasn't won't be allowed to post opinions on football players. That sounds reasonable.:rollseyes:

I see what you're getting at... so first off.. would you like a certificate and/or list of My playing and coaching credentials? I can certainly make certain that you get them in detail..and secondly..I'm sure you've heard the saying.. "opinions are like..... ..everyone has one" ...which is fine.. and there should be no problem posting opinions in any respectful manner... but at the same time I'll try and make this black and white for those that don't get it... ..some guys, especially some of these Media types that try and make a big score by writing some ludicrous articles need to be a little more careful/respectful of the "noise/garbage" that spout off when it comes to subject matter that they, in reality, don't have a clue about.. it goes without saying that most will agree not to agree on things such as the greatest of all time.. who the top 5 or 10 QB's are... and the list goes on and on... but to print garbage about someone just to make yourself look good and/or sell papers is a joke and it seems that more and more of these clowns get away with it..and worse than all of it.. big picture.. like in this case.. it's a blatant disrespect to the entire career that Favre put together..which in turn is a major 'dis` to any person who assembled a very very solid career in their field as well..

 

[Koya]

must have been composed by some clown that thinks Dan Marino is the best of all time..what a farce..I love these idiots... yes I said "idiots", that have never played a down of Football.. (probably at any level) ..in their life yet they can say Favre isn't an all time top 10 QB....it's the entire body of work people.. ...look at the entire body of work!!

What about the "idiots" who did play football that can come up with 10 QBs better than Favre in NFL history? What difference does that matter?Does that mean that they actually remember past say, 1980 when counting QBs to account for at least 7 better than Farve (aka didnt lose so many key games for his teams) and quite conceivably 10 other QBs that could be considered better.I mean, to call someone an idiot while assuming that anyone who actually played football "at any level" would (a) be more knowledgeable about all time great QBs and (b) have to know Favre unquestionable one of the all time top ten QBs oh, and saying Marino isnt included at least in the conversation?Yeah, that should speak for itself.BTW, a number of us have discussed this very point in other threads - you know one of the million others on Favre. 3-7 over his last 10 playoff games for example. 19 INTs over that time, including 4 and 6 in two respective games.

 

[Koya]

must have been composed by some clown that thinks Dan Marino is the best of all time..what a farce..I love these idiots... yes I said "idiots", that have never played a down of Football.. (probably at any level) ..in their life yet they can say Favre isn't an all time top 10 QB....it's the entire body of work people.. ...look at the entire body of work!!

Not for nothing, but if a guy who never played football in his life isn't qualified to say that Favre isn't an all time top 10 QB, then you must also be saying that anyone who is a proponent of Favre who never played football in their life is just as unqualified to say that Favre IS an all time top 10 QB, right?Just saying...

I'd say so...

Just passin through here, but is this guy actually saying that anyone who didn't play football is in no place to make (online message board) judgements about the qualities of a HoF caliber QB who just happens to not be as good as the hype and man love thrown toward him?That's utterly laughable.

 

[TheLastDispatch]

like in this case.. it's a blatant disrespect to the entire career that Favre put together..

which in turn is a major 'dis` to any person who assembled a very very solid career in their field as well..

Sal's not disrespecting the entire career Favre put together. He's saying the SECOND HALF of Favre's career has been overhyped because people are so in love with Favre they can't see that he lost a step. Judging by some responses in this thread (not aiming this at you in particular, Jag), Sal's right. Some people (some) really do have a difficult time admitting Favre isn't what he used to be. Great QB? Absolutely. One of the best of all time? Sure. Are people oversensitive about him? Yeah, they are.

 

[the Jag Zone]

like in this case.. it's a blatant disrespect to the entire career that Favre put together..

which in turn is a major 'dis` to any person who assembled a very very solid career in their field as well..

Sal's not disrespecting the entire career Favre put together. He's saying the SECOND HALF of Favre's career has been overhyped because people are so in love with Favre they can't see that he lost a step. Judging by some responses in this thread (not aiming this at you in particular, Jag), Sal's right. Some people (some) really do have a difficult time admitting Favre isn't what he used to be. Great QB? Absolutely. One of the best of all time? Sure. Are people oversensitive about him? Yeah, they are.

I getcha Dispatch.. definitely... I'm looking at it that the question is revolving his entire career...thus My remarks on the subject.. and to me when you talk about best at any position...team or player..or whatever you do as I've said from the start ..it's about the "entire body of work".. and over a 16 year career, starting that many consecutive games.. the numbers... winning seasons.. EVERYTHING all told... speaks a helluva lot louder to greatness than what he did the last 5 years of his career.. and I'd say that for anyone in any case.. I'm not a Favre guy... I'll go to My grave feeling Elway is is head and shoulders all told above them all.. but what Favre did on several mediocre teams with, in most cases, average talent around him at best can never be discounted.. no matter how anyone feels about what happened in his last however many playoff appearances..

 

[the Jag Zone]

Just passin through here, but is this guy actually saying that anyone who didn't play football is in no place to make (online message board) judgements about the qualities of a HoF caliber QB who just happens to not be as good as the hype and man love thrown toward him?

That's utterly laughable.

I think if you'd take the time to read the subject matter you'd know that what's said on the message board wasn't the subject matter...

 

[Beergogglz]

He had one losing season when he took over the job, and one a couple seasons ago - and that's all. That's amazing. It's pretty damn hard to win games, let alone playoff games, in the NFL.

Most overrated pro athletes are so because of their inconsistencies. Favre was consistent, and consistently very good. There are a lot of teams that would love to have played 10 playoff games in these 10 years.

The flip side of that is the fact his supporting cast was never really as poor as the apologists/sycophants would like you to believe. That's the rub in all of this.....

 

[Beergogglz]

Some good points were made in that article, but if he is going to point out Favre's lack of playoff wins over the last few years, he needs to point out how outstanding his playoff win total was the first few years. Over the first 7 years of Favre's career, his playoff record was 9-4. By comparison, here is what the W/L record was for the first 7 years of their careers and then their whole career of Favre and other QBs of the last 25-30 years that he is often compared to:Favre 9-4 (1 Super Bowl win) / 12-10Montana 7-2 (2 Super Bowl win) / 16-7Elway 6-5 (0 Super Bowl wins) / 14-8Marino 3-3 (0 Super Bowl wins) / 8-10Brady 12-2 (3 Super Bowl wins) / 14-3 (still active)Manning 3-5 (0 Super Bowl wins) / 7-7 (still active)So, Favre won more playoff games than any of those QBs except for Brady in the first 7 years of his career, and won a Super Bowl, something three of those guys didn't do, but I guess we are just supposed to focus on his playoff failures of the past few years. Yeah, that makes sense.

I guess the question begging to be asked is where does the determination of the 7 year cutoff come from?

 

[Challenge Everything]

He had one losing season when he took over the job, and one a couple seasons ago - and that's all. That's amazing. It's pretty damn hard to win games, let alone playoff games, in the NFL.

Most overrated pro athletes are so because of their inconsistencies. Favre was consistent, and consistently very good. There are a lot of teams that would love to have played 10 playoff games in these 10 years.

The flip side of that is the fact his supporting cast was never really as poor as the apologists/sycophants would like you to believe. That's the rub in all of this.....

Offensively speaking, his supporting cast was mediocre. The only running threat Favre ever had was Green for the five years. The receivers, save Sharpe, were non threatening type receivers. No defensive coordinator ever said "we need to game plan for Antonio Freeman, or Robert Brooks, or Donald Driver." (Donald Driver is a great competitor but not a deep ball threat, not a threat as in a Chad Johnson, Marvin Harrison, Randy Moss mold) All defensive coordinators game planned for Favre in his career. To be blunt with your point... Favre was the reason why his supporting cast was above average for most of his years... his supporting cast was not the reason why Favre was above average.

 

[Beergogglz]

He had one losing season when he took over the job, and one a couple seasons ago - and that's all. That's amazing. It's pretty damn hard to win games, let alone playoff games, in the NFL.

Most overrated pro athletes are so because of their inconsistencies. Favre was consistent, and consistently very good. There are a lot of teams that would love to have played 10 playoff games in these 10 years.

The flip side of that is the fact his supporting cast was never really as poor as the apologists/sycophants would like you to believe. That's the rub in all of this.....

Offensively speaking, his supporting cast was mediocre. The only running threat Favre ever had was Green for the five years. The receivers, save Sharpe, were non threatening type receivers. No defensive coordinator ever said "we need to game plan for Antonio Freeman, or Robert Brooks, or Donald Driver." (Donald Driver is a great competitor but not a deep ball threat, not a threat as in a Chad Johnson, Marvin Harrison, Randy Moss mold) All defensive coordinators game planned for Favre in his career. To be blunt with your point... Favre was the reason why his supporting cast was above average for most of his years... his supporting cast was not the reason why Favre was above average.

Again, that's the pet argument of the Favre supporters, that his surrounding cast was just too damn mediocre. Was it really, though? Solid O-line, good running game, receivers that can catch a ball when it's not hummed at them from 10 feet away at 80 mph. Sorry, but the "He made everyone so much better argument!" doesn't hold much that much water with me. And, as one D coordinator said (don't know why I'm thinking it was a Lions guy), "We want the ball in Favre's hands."

It was thought to be blaphemous at the time, but in reality, it was pretty much right on the money. He was just as likely to cough it up with a poor decision as he was to win the game. Probably even moreso over the past 10 years. And that was the point of Sal's piece, ironically.....

 

[Footballhead]

I agree Favre gets more praise than he deserves, but then again this is GB we're talking about. The town is almost empty on every Sunday home game and they're competing against the New Yorks and Chicagos and Dallas' that can shelve $millions as signing bonuses to the best player out there. I don't think Favre is the best ever, but give the guy some credit.

 

[Tau837]

What about the "idiots" who did play football that can come up with 10 QBs better than Favre in NFL history? What difference does that matter?Does that mean that they actually remember past say, 1980 when counting QBs to account for at least 7 better than Farve (aka didnt lose so many key games for his teams) and quite conceivably 10 other QBs that could be considered better.

I can't quite tell from this whether you are suggesting you think there are 7 QBs better than Favre, or 10, or 17, or some other number. If you're suggesting 17, I'd like to see you list them. If you're suggesting 7 or 10, it is more reasonable, though I might argue it.Personally, what I tend to post when these all time great QB discussions come up is something along these lines:IMO Montana and Unitas are the top 2 QBs of all time.IMO the next tier includes (in no particular order) Elway, Favre, Baugh, Graham, and Marino.IMO Brady and Peyton Manning will likely rank in one of those tiers when their careers are over, but it's premature to slot them in there right now.

 

[Tau837]

Sal isn't saying Favre sucked, he's saying he hasn't been as good during the back half of his career as he was in the front half. He's saying he's been overhyped the last few years due to how good he was in the front half of his career.

Interesting. How many elite QBs are as good in the second half of their careers as in the first half?

 

[TheLastDispatch]

Sal isn't saying Favre sucked, he's saying he hasn't been as good during the back half of his career as he was in the front half. He's saying he's been overhyped the last few years due to how good he was in the front half of his career.

Interesting. How many elite QBs are as good in the second half of their careers as in the first half?

Not many. Difference is, as I believe Sal is saying, that no one acknowledges Favre has gotten any worse. He's still looked at as a god rather than a once stellar QB who has declined some with age, like every other QB declines.

 

[Tau837]

Again, that's the pet argument of the Favre supporters, that his surrounding cast was just too damn mediocre. Was it really, though? Solid O-line, good running game, receivers that can catch a ball when it's not hummed at them from 10 feet away at 80 mph. Sorry, but the "He made everyone so much better argument!" doesn't hold much that much water with me. And, as one D coordinator said (don't know why I'm thinking it was a Lions guy), "We want the ball in Favre's hands."It was thought to be blaphemous at the time, but in reality, it was pretty much right on the money. He was just as likely to cough it up with a poor decision as he was to win the game. Probably even moreso over the past 10 years. And that was the point of Sal's piece, ironically.....

Good running game? Here are the Packers' running game ranks (in rushing yards) during Favre's career: 21, 22, 19, 23, 11, 12, 25, 21, 23, 21, 12, 3, 10, 30, 23, 21. That is an average of 18.6. Only 2 times in the top 10 and 5 times in the top half of the league in 16 seasons. You call that good? I'd call it below average.I don't really know of good objective measures to assess his OL. How about Pro Bowl selections:Clifton in 2007Rivera in 2004Flanagan and Rivera in 2003Rivera in 2002Winters in 1996That's it - 6 selections in 16 seasons. This is a poor measure for sure, but it sure doesn't make me think it was a good OL. Then again, I guess you said "solid." If by solid you meant average, maybe you're right... though I'd argue that the running game performance suggest otherwise. If by solid you meant above average, I disagree.As for Favre having more bad decisions cost his team games, I'd argue two things on that. First, that he did not have a lot of playmakers during the last 10 years, and thus had to try to make plays himself oftentimes. Also, one reason it seems like he made a lot of bad plays is because he spent so much more time on the field than most other QBs. The bottom line is that he made a lot more good plays than bad plays, or he wouldn't have the numbers or winning percentage he has.I'm not a Favre apologist, nor a Packers fan. But this whole line of reasoning is off base IMO.

 

[phthalatemagic]

I see what you're getting at... so first off.. would you like a certificate and/or list of My playing and coaching credentials? I can certainly make certain that you get them in detail..

Yes.

 

[Tau837]

Sal isn't saying Favre sucked, he's saying he hasn't been as good during the back half of his career as he was in the front half. He's saying he's been overhyped the last few years due to how good he was in the front half of his career.

Interesting. How many elite QBs are as good in the second half of their careers as in the first half?

Not many. Difference is, as I believe Sal is saying, that no one acknowledges Favre has gotten any worse. He's still looked at as a god rather than a once stellar QB who has declined some with age, like every other QB declines.

Well, consider that Favre was an All Pro selection 4 times in his last 7 years (compared to 3 times in his first 7).And consider that he was in the top 5 in the NFL in passing yards 7 times in his last 10 years... and in the top 5 in TD passes 5 times in his last 10 years... in each case, he missed the top 10 only 1 time.I don't think anyone has been saying he is as good as he was in his 3 straight MVP seasons from 1995 to 1997... but they have been rightfully saying that he is still one of the best QBs in the NFL, which has definitely been true.

 

[Koya]

Sal isn't saying Favre sucked, he's saying he hasn't been as good during the back half of his career as he was in the front half. He's saying he's been overhyped the last few years due to how good he was in the front half of his career.

Interesting. How many elite QBs are as good in the second half of their careers as in the first half?

How many elite QBs killed their teams chances in the playoffs that often?

 

[Beergogglz]

Sal isn't saying Favre sucked, he's saying he hasn't been as good during the back half of his career as he was in the front half. He's saying he's been overhyped the last few years due to how good he was in the front half of his career.

Interesting. How many elite QBs are as good in the second half of their careers as in the first half?

How many elite QBs killed their teams chances in the playoffs that often?

And, again, I think what Paolantonio was getting at in writing his article.....

 

[Challenge Everything]

Sal isn't saying Favre sucked, he's saying he hasn't been as good during the back half of his career as he was in the front half. He's saying he's been overhyped the last few years due to how good he was in the front half of his career.

Interesting. How many elite QBs are as good in the second half of their careers as in the first half?

How many elite QBs killed their teams chances in the playoffs that often?

I really do not know where to go with this empty assertion of yours. There is no basis for this statement.

 

[Beergogglz]

Again, that's the pet argument of the Favre supporters, that his surrounding cast was just too damn mediocre. Was it really, though? Solid O-line, good running game, receivers that can catch a ball when it's not hummed at them from 10 feet away at 80 mph. Sorry, but the "He made everyone so much better argument!" doesn't hold much that much water with me. And, as one D coordinator said (don't know why I'm thinking it was a Lions guy), "We want the ball in Favre's hands."It was thought to be blaphemous at the time, but in reality, it was pretty much right on the money. He was just as likely to cough it up with a poor decision as he was to win the game. Probably even moreso over the past 10 years. And that was the point of Sal's piece, ironically.....

Good running game? Here are the Packers' running game ranks (in rushing yards) during Favre's career: 21, 22, 19, 23, 11, 12, 25, 21, 23, 21, 12, 3, 10, 30, 23, 21. That is an average of 18.6. Only 2 times in the top 10 and 5 times in the top half of the league in 16 seasons. You call that good? I'd call it below average.I don't really know of good objective measures to assess his OL. How about Pro Bowl selections:Clifton in 2007Rivera in 2004Flanagan and Rivera in 2003Rivera in 2002Winters in 1996That's it - 6 selections in 16 seasons. This is a poor measure for sure, but it sure doesn't make me think it was a good OL. Then again, I guess you said "solid." If by solid you meant average, maybe you're right... though I'd argue that the running game performance suggest otherwise. If by solid you meant above average, I disagree.As for Favre having more bad decisions cost his team games, I'd argue two things on that. First, that he did not have a lot of playmakers during the last 10 years, and thus had to try to make plays himself oftentimes. Also, one reason it seems like he made a lot of bad plays is because he spent so much more time on the field than most other QBs. The bottom line is that he made a lot more good plays than bad plays, or he wouldn't have the numbers or winning percentage he has.I'm not a Favre apologist, nor a Packers fan. But this whole line of reasoning is off base IMO.

I'm curious to know how much those ranks were off the league average, if you have the ability to find that out. It could be a bit misleading to say, "Well, the running game had an average of 19th overall when Favre was there" when in reality that ended up being a difference of 20 yards from the leader in the category, no?And again, Favre's strong point has never been patience. Whether or not he had the discipline to trust his teammates to make plays, well, that's another story entirely.....

 

[Chicago Hooligan]

So it turns out this isn't that interesting at all.