Interrupting Violence With The Message 'Don't Shoot' (1 Viewer)

[Joe Bryant]

I listened to this podcast when it came out 10 years ago. And was reminded of it recently. 

https://www.npr.org/2011/11/01/141803766/interrupting-violence-with-the-message-dont-shoot

David Kennedy is a criminologist that's had success dramatically reducing violence in cities like Boston and others. He seems to make a lot of sense to me but this is not my area of experience.

Wondering what you thought. 

Transcript: https://www.npr.org/transcripts/141803766

Apologies if honda as I know y'all have been talking about this topic. 

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

I think what he says makes a lot of sense it's just very difficult sometimes to make these kinda big changes without a lot of people buying in.  It's a lot like how there's always the stats guys who know that it makes mathematical sense to go for it more on 4th down.  But even though they're right the coaches don't want to do it because they'll get more blame if things don't go well.  People are scared to do things differently than they're used to.

If you're interested in criminology and criminal justice reform, I highly recommend that you start watching Philly DA on PBS and then I even more highly recommend that you consider joining the robust discussion we're having on the show.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I think what he says makes a lot of sense it's just very difficult sometimes to make these kinda big changes without a lot of people buying in.  It's a lot like how there's always the stats guys who know that it makes mathematical sense to go for it more on 4th down.  But even though they're right the coaches don't want to do it because they'll get more blame if things don't go well.  People are scared to do things differently than they're used to.

If you're interested in criminology and criminal justice reform, I highly recommend that you start watching Philly DA on PBS and then I even more highly recommend that you consider joining the robust discussion we're having on the show.

Thanks. 

I think some of the things he said that resonated with me were how both the police and the people living there had incorrect views of the other. AND how it was plausible both could have those views. 

I was struck by the gang members having all the nuanced ways to describe being shot at. I've never been shot at. I'm thankful I've never had to distinguish the different ways I've been shot at. 

I think he's spot on about understanding how "stop and frisk" can help lower crime. But at what a cost it is in how you lose the community. 

I thought it was powerful how he talked about the leaders in the community telling the gang people, "We are for you. But we are absolutely against what you're doing to our community".

Interesting too how it seems just as relevant today as it did 10 years ago when I first heard it. 

 

[-jb-]

good read here, and interesting that it's in Columbus given the current climate. Compares it to the progress and subsequent slide in Oakland.

https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/columns/2021/02/04/reduce-violence-columbus-should-look-oakland-ideas/4336088001/

As an Oakland resident, one thing the article didn't point out (unsure if deliberate or not), is that our current mayor is doing an absolutely terrible job on many fronts.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Thanks. 

I think some of the things he said that resonated with me were how both the police and the people living there had incorrect views of the other. AND how it was plausible both could have those views. 

I was struck by the gang members having all the nuanced ways to describe being shot at. I've never been shot at. I'm thankful I've never had to distinguish the different ways I've been shot at. 

I think he's spot on about understanding how "stop and frisk" can help lower crime. But at what a cost it is in how you lose the community. 

I thought it was powerful how he talked about the leaders in the community telling the gang people, "We are for you. But we are absolutely against what you're doing to our community".

Interesting too how it seems just as relevant today as it did 10 years ago when I first heard it. 

Is it working still in those areas? 

 

[rockaction]

Is it working still in those areas? 

No. Not in Boston, the real case study they talk about. It was in the transcript. I read the whole transcript, and I commented yesterday about that, but it wound up way too long for consumption so I just clipped it.

 

[parasaurolophus]

No. Not in Boston, the real case study they talk about. It was in the transcript. I read the whole transcript, and I commented yesterday about that, but it wound up way too long for consumption so I just clipped it.

Had a hunch. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

They talked a bit about Boston. Why do you think it stops working? My guess is they relaxed on the program. I don't think there's anything fundamental about the program that would only allow it to work for a short time. But I don't know. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

Had a hunch. 

Interesting. What are the details behind the hunch you had that this would not work? Please be specific.

Also, what specifically do you think is a better way to reduce the violence?

 

[parasaurolophus]

Interesting. What are the details behind the hunch you had that this would not work? Please be specific.

Also, what specifically do you think is a better way to reduce the violence?

I didn't spend a lot of time on it but a few wikipedia pages led me to believe this was not actually a successful long term program and that there was lots of data cherry picking. I saw wikipedia sentences that said "studies have shown" but the citation is to only one study that I can't even get access to without paying a bunch. Another article quoted a different reduction elsewhere and when I found the background study it said there was a decline but that with a comparison sample it didnt show a decline(in other words the decline was fairly universal). 

Crime stats can have a lot of fluctuation, especially very specific ones within certain age brackets. So my gut told me top of the mountain overview wouldn't show it as very successful over a bigger stretch. 

As far as specifically what can be done to reduce the violence, that's a pretty big topic, with a lot of avenues that would take a lot of time for each. I have lots of ideas, so I will try and revisit this in the next few days to put some in print. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

I didn't spend a lot of time on it but a few wikipedia pages led me to believe this was not actually a successful long term program and that there was lots of data cherry picking. I saw wikipedia sentences that said "studies have shown" but the citation is to only one study that I can't even get access to without paying a bunch. Another article quoted a different reduction elsewhere and when I found the background study it said there was a decline but that with a comparison sample it didnt show a decline(in other words the decline was fairly universal). 

Crime stats can have a lot of fluctuation, especially very specific ones within certain age brackets. So my gut told me top of the mountain overview wouldn't show it as very successful over a bigger stretch. 

As far as specifically what can be done to reduce the violence, that's a pretty big topic, with a lot of avenues that would take a lot of time for each. I have lots of ideas, so I will try and revisit this in the next few days to put some in print. 

Did you listen to the podcast with the Criminologist or read the transcript where he talks about the program and what it involves?

 

[parasaurolophus]

Did you listen to the podcast with the Criminologist or read the transcript where he talks about the program and what it involves?

I read the transcript, then some wikipedia pages and one article about the "boston miracle." Also tried to look at the studies evaluating them. 

 

[McBokonon]

I saw wikipedia sentences that said "studies have shown" but the citation is to only one study that I can't even get access to without paying a bunch.

They grandfather our academic library access where I got my MPA so if you post the name of this article, I can probably get it for free. 

 

[parasaurolophus]

They grandfather our academic library access where I got my MPA so if you post the name of this article, I can probably get it for free. 

Operation ceasefire page 

It is under findings and results. The citation is number 12.

 

[McBokonon]

Operation ceasefire page 

It is under findings and results. The citation is number 12.

Problem-Oriented Policing, Deterrence, and Youth Violence: An Evaluation of Boston's Operation Ceasefire

 

[parasaurolophus]

Problem-Oriented Policing, Deterrence, and Youth Violence: An Evaluation of Boston's Operation Ceasefire

Nice. Thanks!