Challenge Everything
Footballguy
Who ranked near him in passing numbers and QB stats in his time?
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Is Bart Starr Overrated? Maybe yes, maybe no. (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter JohnnyU
- Start date
JohnnyU
Footballguy
God, that is too easy. Go to http://www.pro-football-reference.com/ and enjoy. Like one poster already stated, he didn't rank near the top in QB stats almost all of his career.
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Challenge Everything
Footballguy
This is a tired argument. I am not the one trying to convince people that Starr is not good. Give me career stats or something. You are making the ascertion... I am not.
Fla\/\/ed
Footballguy
These numbers show how efficient Starr was.1962-Adjusted yards per Pass
B Starr 7.55
Y Tittle 7.08
D Meredith 6.93
S Jurgensen 6.31
N Snead 6.09
J Brodie 5.70
J Unitas 5.56
C Johnson 5.52
B Wade 5.51
F Tarkenton 5.14
1963-Adjusted Yards per Pass
Y Tittle 7.83
J Unitas 7.66
E Morrall 6.80
F Ryan 6.61
B Starr 6.37
E Brown 6.33
C Johnson 6.18
F Tarkenton 6.01
D Meredith 5.62
R Gabriel 5.45
1964-Adjusted Yards per Pass
J Unitas 9.00
B Starr 7.77
F Tarkenton 7.29
S Jurgensen 6.72
M Plum 6.08
F Ryan 5.39
N Snead 5.32
C Johnson 5.18
J Brodie 4.89
D Meredith 4.68
1965- Adjusted Yards per Pass
J Unitas 7.87
R Bukich 7.81
B Starr 7.21
E Morrall 7.04
F Tarkenton 7.00
J Brodie 6.88
D Meredith 6.72
N Snead 6.64
C Johnson 6.04
F Ryan 5.54
1966- Adjusted Yards per Pass
B Starr 9.01
D Meredith 7.28
F Ryan 6.90
S Jurgensen 6.04
F Tarkenton 5.62
J Unitas 5.43
R Gabriel 4.84
J Brodie 4.64
C Johnson 4.58
K Sweetan 3.94
1967-Adjusted Yards per Pass
F Tarkenton 6.69
J Unitas 6.67
R Gabriel 6.59
S Jurgensen 6.57
N Snead 6.01
B Starr 5.47
F Ryan 5.38
D Meredith 5.00
J Hart 4.65
B Kilmer 4.44
Fla\/\/ed
Footballguy
You truely have no concept of what makes a great football player. It is obvious you will not be able to grasp this. You are so off on this that is bordering on pathetic. Out of respect for Shick, I'm done on this subject with Jimmy because he knows nothing about football.Best of luck to you JimmyU.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
Ok Flawed/Rhino, but in the end, I think this poll will be close. Closer than you think. If not, that's ok also. It was fun though.You truely have no concept of what makes a great football player. It is obvious you will not be able to grasp this. You are so off on this that is bordering on pathetic. Out of respect for Shick, I'm done on this subject with Jimmy because he knows nothing about football.Best of luck to you JimmyU.
MarshallRob
Footballguy
Is this a 
?
You can make a case for Unitas being better but is TD/INT ratio really the stat you want to hang your hat on?
Unitas: 1.15
Starr: 1.10
Big deal. Here's some more:
Young: 2.17
Montana: 1.96
Marino: 1.66
Elway: 1.33
How about this one:
Lifetime Passer Rating
Starr: 80.5
Unitas: 78.2
I also offer these words from Allen Barra from his eulogy for Unitas:
?You can make a case for Unitas being better but is TD/INT ratio really the stat you want to hang your hat on?
Unitas: 1.15
Starr: 1.10
Big deal. Here's some more:
Young: 2.17
Montana: 1.96
Marino: 1.66
Elway: 1.33
How about this one:
Lifetime Passer Rating
Starr: 80.5
Unitas: 78.2
I also offer these words from Allen Barra from his eulogy for Unitas:
JohnnyU
Footballguy
Not much of that was Starr. That is obvious by his stats. Don't even try to compare him to Unitas and Montana.Is this a
You can make a case for Unitas being better but is TD/INT ratio really the stat you want to hang your hat on?
Unitas: 1.15
Starr: 1.10
Big deal. Here's some more:
Young: 2.17
Montana: 1.96
Marino: 1.66
Elway: 1.33
How about this one:
Lifetime Passer Rating
Starr: 80.5
Unitas: 78.2
I also offer these words from Allen Barra from his eulogy for Unitas:
Challenge Everything
Footballguy
MarshallRob
Footballguy
So Starr's not responsible for his superior QB rating?Not much of that was Starr. That is obvious by his stats. Don't even try to compare him to Unitas and Montana.Is this a
You can make a case for Unitas being better but is TD/INT ratio really the stat you want to hang your hat on?
Unitas: 1.15
Starr: 1.10
Big deal. Here's some more:
Young: 2.17
Montana: 1.96
Marino: 1.66
Elway: 1.33
How about this one:
Lifetime Passer Rating
Starr: 80.5
Unitas: 78.2
I also offer these words from Allen Barra from his eulogy for Unitas:
JohnnyU
Footballguy
No, but he is responsible for his horrible QB rating over his career.So Starr's not responsible for his superior QB rating?Not much of that was Starr. That is obvious by his stats. Don't even try to compare him to Unitas and Montana.Is this a
You can make a case for Unitas being better but is TD/INT ratio really the stat you want to hang your hat on?
Unitas: 1.15
Starr: 1.10
Big deal. Here's some more:
Young: 2.17
Montana: 1.96
Marino: 1.66
Elway: 1.33
How about this one:
Lifetime Passer Rating
Starr: 80.5
Unitas: 78.2
I also offer these words from Allen Barra from his eulogy for Unitas:
JohnnyU
Footballguy
Do you think that Doug Williams could accomplish what Starr did with those mediocre numbers and still win a championship? How many other QBs could have done the same thing? Simms for the NYG?, Dawson for the KC Chiefs?, Griese for the Dolphins (which has the undefeated season to his credit, but not mentioned with the all time greats, but has better numbers than Starr). or.....hell..I give up.
KnowledgeReignsSupreme
Footballguy
Numbers don't lie, but they don't tell the truth either.
So who do you think had better stats, then? The only guys I can find throughout the 60's that were comparable are Unitas, Tarkenton, and Jurgensen. Those three had slightly better career TD/Int. ratios, but Starr beat all of three of them in completion percentage AND yards per completion.Is your main issue the fact that he didn't rack up yards and TDs? Well, he didn't throw a lot. Does that makes him a bad quarterback? Go look at his stats again, he ranked in the top 10 a bunch of times in various passing categories. This despite only ranking in the top 10 in ATTEMPTS twice. Yes, 2 times in his career. I'd say he did more with less, especially when he's outdoing other guys who got more opportunities.Frankly, I don't see anything wrong with a winning quarterback who is an efficient passer playing on a primarily running team. His stats look pretty good to me, as compared to his peers. And by the way, that's what I'm basing this on - stats. I never saw the guy play.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
Leadership is only 1 parameter. The rest of Starr doesn't measure up for a career. His numbers are horrible. I'm sure that Dilfer could have accomplished the same thing given the time and space.Hell, Bert Jones was a great leader, but Lombardi made that team click, not Starr. He was interchangeable.
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Challenge Everything
Footballguy
Dilfer could not even begin to fathom any attempt at holding Starr's jock let alone be mentioned in the same sentence in a comparison manner. If Dilfer was so great he would have done much more while in Tampa. Product of the system Starr may have been but if that is the argument then I can safely say that Unitas was a product of the system he was in.Leadership is only 1 parameter. The rest of Starr doesn't measure up for a career. His numbers are horrible. I'm sure that Dilfer could have accomplished the same thing given the time and space.Hell, Bert Jones was a great leader, but Lombardi made that team click, not Starr. He was interchangeable.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
No, Unitas put up the numbers, Starr didn't. It's that simple. Look it up, and not waste my time. Dilfer could have done what Starr did, but not Unitas.....Dilfer could not even begin to fathom any attempt at holding Starr's jock let alone be mentioned in the same sentence in a comparison manner. If Dilfer was so great he would have done much more while in Tampa. Product of the system Starr may have been but if that is the argument then I can safely say that Unitas was a product of the system he was in.Leadership is only 1 parameter. The rest of Starr doesn't measure up for a career. His numbers are horrible. I'm sure that Dilfer could have accomplished the same thing given the time and space.Hell, Bert Jones was a great leader, but Lombardi made that team click, not Starr. He was interchangeable.
MarshallRob
Footballguy
One more timeLifetime Passer Rating
Starr: 80.5
Unitas: 78.2
-The differences in their lifetime TD/INT ratios are almost negligible (see above).
-Starr led the NFL in completion percentage and Yards Per Attempt more times than Unitas.
-Unitas had three Hall of Fame receivers/tight ends to throw to: Berry, Lenny Moore, and Mackey. Starr had none.
Horrible when compared to?
Again, he didn't throw a lot. He also played less games per season than today's players. Did you also consider the possibility that he was a backup or part time starter a few of those seasons? Plus, guys threw for a lot less TDs in the 60's, just in case you didn't realize that as you did your highly impressive research.
Challenge Everything
Footballguy
Unitas put up the numbers because the system allowed him to do so. Unitas threw a horrible ball and his WR/TE's ran to get under them. If you are going to say Starr is a product of a system one must conclude that all QB's are products of the system. If you are going to put a value on numbers then all numbers must be included. Again, in todays game Starr would be an average QB, but when he played he was at the top of most QB stat categories and deserves his place in the Hall like it or not.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
Unitas had 40,000+ yds passing to 24,000 for Starr, 290 tds, to 152, . Unitas has 47 straight games throwing a td pass, a record that will NEVER BE BROKEN, Unitas has....hell, what am I doing? Why shoud I defend the greatest QB of all time with the likes of Bart Starr? Give me a f-ing break.
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Challenge Everything
Footballguy
Why bring Favre into this? You hijacked this into a Unitas vs. Starr thread.
Challenge Everything
Footballguy
You are right that this is a different thread but you mentioned "greatest QB of all time" and everybody knows that that is Brett Favre. So when you said it above it kind of threw me off. Continue comparing Unitas and Starr as a top #5 QB.
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
1. Earl Morrall was responsible for the Dolphins perfect season in 1972, not Griese.2. Bart Starr's passing statistics are being overrated. You are forgetting to remember that there were only 13 teams in the NFL in 1960.So when Starr ranked 9th in passing yards in 1960, that's not like ranking 9th in the modern NFL. In 1966 when he ranked 8th in passing yards, there were only 15 teams.His YPA numbers were very good. Twice he ranked 1st, and two other times he ranked in the top three. (Of course, that's not as impressive when there are only 12 or so other teams. I'd consider it analagous to how a QB ranks in his conference in the modern NFL.)
MarshallRob
Footballguy
I don't know how you know the 47 straight games record will never be broken. But the job of a QB is not to throw a TD every game or pile up numbers. His job is to lead his team to victory. And nobody did that better than Starr. The "product of the system" argument is silly. Look who's not on Starr's final championship team in 1967. Jim Taylor and Paul Hornung. The Pack was an aging team that year with pedestrian running backs. Bart still got the job done in the Ice Bowl and the Super Bowl. Maybe Lombardi deserves the lion's share of the credit, but it's not like Unitas had coaches who didn't know how to coach (Weeb Eubank, Don Shula).
Maybe Unitas is the greatest of all time. But I don't understand just dismissing a guy who won more titles than any QB ever, a first-ballot Hall of Famer whose team repeatedly beat Unitas' team and everyone else too. You can make a legitimate argument for either.
MarshallRob
Footballguy
That's partly true. Miami was already 4-0 when Griese got injured. Morrall played badly in the AFC Championship Game (and he barely led his team to a win against the Browns the week before). With the game tied at 7-7, Griese came off the bench and threw a 52-yard pass to Warfield to set up the go-ahead score. Miami never trailed again.Morrall played a legendarily bad game in Super Bowl III and he wasn't much better in Super Bowl V (but was bailed out by his defense). He was one of the worst big-game QB's in history.
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
From ESPN.com...Morrall, who started in the Colts' Super Bowl III loss to the Jets, took over from Super Bowl V starter Johnny Unitas, who was taken out with bruised ribs near the end of the first half. Morrall had been Johnny U's backup throughout the 1970 season, but was a two-time Pro Bowler and such a great reserve that Bob Cohn of the Washington Times recently proposed an "Earl Morrall Award" for excellent play by reserve QBs.
The Colts trailed the Cowboys 13-6 at the intermission. Morrall, helped greatly by two second-half interceptions by Baltimore's defense, led the Colts to a touchdown and, finally, the game-winning field goal by Jim O'Brien as time expired. On the day, Morrall completed 7 of 15 passes for 147 yards.
Good point about the number of teams, Chase. I made a mistake in assuming that the league leader stats included the AFL teams, but now that you point it out, I see that's definitely not the case. Still, even if you include the AFL, Dawson is the only additional QB from the 60's who can be statistically placed with Starr as a peer.Regardless, JohnnyU is being incredibly dense. I can find very few guys who had a positive TD/Int ratio from that era, so to say Starr's ratio is "horrible" is just plain ridiculous. I still stand by my statement that his stats show he made the best of his opportunities. His completion % and yards per throw were very good, and despite what JohnnyU says, his TD/Int ratio was pretty solid for QBs in the 60's. Again, I'm just going by stats listed on pro-football-reference - I never saw him play.
Fla\/\/ed
Footballguy
What is really sad is how many fantasy football people have lost sight over great accomplishments in the NFL since all they seem to focus on are damn statistics.How many QBs have led their teams to as many championships as Starr? How many QBs are recognized among their peers as one of the greats on the field, off the field and in the huddle?For all you fantasy geek head stat boys, here is what you need to focus on with Starr.• Named NFL MVP (1966)• Won Six Western Division Titles• Won Five NFL Championships• Won Two Super Bowl Victories (I,II)• Named MVP of Super Bowls I and II• Led the NFL in passing in 1962, 1964 and 1966• Named to the Pro Bowl Four Times
LA Football Fan
Footballguy
This thread is the type of thing that makes me embarrassed to be a fantasy geek. It's not all about stats, if it was why aren't we talking about Dan Fouts too. The QB position, especially in the day when the QB called the plays, is about leadership. Did Starr put up the numbers like Marino or Unitas...No. Were those guys great QBs...Yes. But comparing Bart Starr to Jim McMahon & Trent Dilfer...c'mon (how many championships did those two clowns win). Starr was one of the great field generals of all time. He efficiently administered Lombardi's smashmouth style of football...but could turn up the heat when he needed too. There were several key playoff games won over the year on Starr's arm, especially in Hornung & Taylor's later days. The best current comparison may be Tom Brady.There was no West Coast offense in Lombardi's Packers, but when it comes to leadership, Bart Starr effected that leadership from that position as good if not better than anyone. If anything, the fact that these type of discussions even exist, tells me Bart Starr is one of the most UNDERRATED QBs of all-time.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Anyone who compares the stats of modern-day quarterbacks to those of 30, 40 or even 50 years ago is demonstrating a severe lack of knowledge of football.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I am amazed by how happily some display their ignorance.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
Hey, I'm just throwing out the possibility that he is overrated in comparison to the greatest ever. No need to get personal, but if you have something constructive to say, then by all means, post it. Score is 43-19 (minus the 2 I voted No). I guess those other 19 are ignorant also?Edited to say that I suppose I should expect some personal attacks with a thread that doesn't show the beloved Bart Starr is a positive way.
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Wildcat
Footballguy
Ummm, no. It's funny to me reading your responses to other's post. Based on what I read, I would guess your age at about 15-16, but then you say you have a wife. Poor girl.Because you wereI am done there. I am just waiting to bump that thread in year.No that just isn't nice. Go back to the FFA and tell us why Bill Callahan is giving Husker fans hope.
