Is it OVER for the Patriots? (1 Viewer)

[David Yudkin]

Wes Welker drops a ball he never drops or this is another ring on Brady's finger. No reason to think they can't do it again. That being said this wasn't a very good SB team (neither were the Giants) compared to the past. Last years Packers run either team out of the building. Patriots either have to revitalize that defense or hope for another weak AFC field and a favorable SB matchup.

Even IF Welker catches that ball they are at the 20. With Giants defense playing as well as they were it was no sure touchdown there. There is a very decent chance the way Brady was playing that they get a field goal and it plays out the same way. Eli is clutch and takes them down for the win.

If Welker makes that catch, by the time the ball is spotted and they run the play clock down, NE would have snapped the ball inside of the 3 minute mark. Assuming they ran the ball, something strung out to the outside and slow in developing, it's conceivable the Pats could have ran the clock all the way down to the 2 minute warning. Pats run again, Giants call time out at say 1:55. Pats run the ball again, getting the game clock down to around a minute and then kick a FG. Take a few seconds off for the kick and a deep squib kick and Eli and the Giants get the ball back with 45 seconds to go down 5 points with 75-80 yards or so to go to win with no timeouts.

There was 4:06 left when the play to Welker began (according to nfl.com gamecenter), and I know there was 3:53 left when the Pats punted, so this scenario is impossible. But still, two runs could have reached the two minute warning, followed by a third run and timeout at 1:55. Field goal and kickoff likely results in 1:50 if no return or 1:45 or less if the kickoff is returned. No timeouts, needing a TD. Your point still stands, but it wouldn't be 45 seconds left.

Obviously we don't know what exactly would have happened, but had Welker caught the ball it would have taken at least 5 seconds to spot the ball and the clock would still have been running. With the pass being incomplete, the clock stopped immediately and the Pats could not have run the clock down at all.Give the Pats another first down and the game would have been over. Either way, if the Giants did get the ball back, they would have had a lot less than maybe a minute and a half to drive down the field and get a game winning TD compared to 3:45 and only needing a FG.

 

[David Yudkin]

Wes Welker drops a ball he never drops or this is another ring on Brady's finger. No reason to think they can't do it again. That being said this wasn't a very good SB team (neither were the Giants) compared to the past. Last years Packers run either team out of the building. Patriots either have to revitalize that defense or hope for another weak AFC field and a favorable SB matchup.

Even IF Welker catches that ball they are at the 20. With Giants defense playing as well as they were it was no sure touchdown there. There is a very decent chance the way Brady was playing that they get a field goal and it plays out the same way. Eli is clutch and takes them down for the win.

If Welker makes that catch, by the time the ball is spotted and they run the play clock down, NE would have snapped the ball inside of the 3 minute mark. Assuming they ran the ball, something strung out to the outside and slow in developing, it's conceivable the Pats could have ran the clock all the way down to the 2 minute warning. Pats run again, Giants call time out at say 1:55. Pats run the ball again, getting the game clock down to around a minute and then kick a FG. Take a few seconds off for the kick and a deep squib kick and Eli and the Giants get the ball back with 45 seconds to go down 5 points with 75-80 yards or so to go to win with no timeouts.

This is a really big stretch.I dont know how long you think a run takes, but if they start 1st down with 3 minutes, they are going to have to run a play before the 2 minute warning, one hundred percent. The play is not taking 15 seconds. 2nd down they run, take it down to 1:55, two minute warning. 3rd down they run the ball, and the giants take a time out with at least a 1:30.Say what you want because there is no way to tell, but I'll take Eli in that situation. He was as clutch as there is.

If this is a better timeline, then I think there would have been a greater chance of the Pats getting a first down. NE would not have gove with a running play right before the two minute warning . . . they would have passed because it would have been a clock stoppage at 2 minutes anyway.I don't know what would have happened from there. Two minute warning, then run a play on 1st down (5 seconds) and a NYG timeout = 1:55. Run a play on second down = 5 seconds + run clock down 40 seconds = 1:10. Run a play on 3rd down = 5 seconds and 40 seconds = 25 seconds. FG and kickoff = 20 seconds left and 80 yards to go with no timeouts.

 

[grateful zed]

No running game, bargain bin wide receivers, a qb who makes awful decisions in the fourth quarter and has a habit of throwing scratch yer head deep interceptions at the most inopportune times, a swiss cheese defense...yeah, I'd say their time is past.

Too bad.

If they can find a big, fast STUD receiver in the draft (like, say, Nicks), that offense would be STUPID!

moss?

 

[Ghost Rider]

David, your math is failing you big time. That missed throw/drop to Welker happened right at 4:00, so had the Patriots then ran three plays and kicked a FG, the Giants would have gotten the ball just after the 2-minute warning, so the Giants would have had it back with a little under two minutes. More than enough time.

Hike the ball on 1st down at 3:20

Hike the ball on 2nd down around at 2:35 (assuming the play took 5 seconds

Hike the ball on 3rd down after the 2-minute warning

Giants timeout.

Field goal

Kickoff. Figure the Giants getting it at 1:45.

 

[AmosMoses]

There's no ####### way this guy could screw up math. At least let's hope not.

 

[cstu]

My biggest head-scratcher is why people hail the genius of stockpiling draft picks when the championship window is open NOW and the players being drafted with these stockpiled picks of past seasons are rarely contributing on the field. One additional defensive playmaker instead of a few high draft picks just might have secured another SB championship for the Patriots. I don't understand it.

This drives me crazy as a Pats fan...while they get good value for these trades at some point you need to put a body next to the pick...especially with the Brady era starting to shorten...with the strategy of stockpiling picks you would think the Pats would be far more deeper than they are but they are missing more than they should for this strategy to really be paying off...instead of trading down I'd like to see them take a run at a few potential studs in the draft (or trade for a high quality veteran)...right now they have two #1's and two #2's...instead of turning that into a pick or two for 2013 I'd rather see them figure out a way to turn it into three #1's this year and inject some legit playmakers onto the defensve-side of the ball...this team is leaving championships on the field because of a play or two and that play is never going to be made be a future pick...

BB is looking past the 'Brady era'. He went 11-5 with Cassell so no doubt he thinks he can build a championship team without Brady.

 

[The Jerk]

David, your math is failing you big time. That missed throw/drop to Welker happened right at 4:00, so had the Patriots then ran three plays and kicked a FG, the Giants would have gotten the ball just after the 2-minute warning, so the Giants would have had it back with a little under two minutes. More than enough time.Hike the ball on 1st down at 3:20Hike the ball on 2nd down around at 2:35 (assuming the play took 5 secondsHike the ball on 3rd down after the 2-minute warningGiants timeout.Field goalKickoff. Figure the Giants getting it at 1:45.

Thanks. I tried, too. He pretty much ignored my effort.1:45 is about what I come up with too, barring a lengthy kickoff return. Of course, that would likely be a long return too...Now, what I didn't say in the first effort was that given Belichick's propensity to go against the grain, and the chance to WIN THE GAME with a conversion, there's actually a reasonable chance that at least one of those plays is a pass. An incompletion would leave more time on the clock or enable the Giants to keep their timeout.We'll never know what might have happened. All we know is what actually happened.

 

[finfansteve]

No running game, bargain bin wide receivers, a qb who makes awful decisions in the fourth quarter and has a habit of throwing scratch yer head deep interceptions at the most inopportune times, a swiss cheese defense...yeah, I'd say their time is past.

Too bad.

If they can find a big, fast STUD receiver in the draft (like, say, Nicks), that offense would be STUPID!

moss?

Agreed. It makes no sense why they didn't bring him back this year when he wanted to come back. Horrible decision in my opinion

 

[cstu]

No running game, bargain bin wide receivers, a qb who makes awful decisions in the fourth quarter and has a habit of throwing scratch yer head deep interceptions at the most inopportune times, a swiss cheese defense...yeah, I'd say their time is past.

Too bad.

If they can find a big, fast STUD receiver in the draft (like, say, Nicks), that offense would be STUPID!

moss?

Agreed. It makes no sense why they didn't bring him back this year when he wanted to come back. Horrible decision in my opinion

I have to imagine he would have made plays that Branch and Ocho didn't. I'm sure Moss is sitting at home thinking the same thing.

 

[sho nuff]

No running game, bargain bin wide receivers, a qb who makes awful decisions in the fourth quarter and has a habit of throwing scratch yer head deep interceptions at the most inopportune times, a swiss cheese defense...yeah, I'd say their time is past.

Too bad.

If they can find a big, fast STUD receiver in the draft (like, say, Nicks), that offense would be STUPID!

moss?

Agreed. It makes no sense why they didn't bring him back this year when he wanted to come back. Horrible decision in my opinion

Because he is done...done done done.There is a reason he was sitting at home.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Anybody saying that it is over for the Patriots is probably somebody who hates them and want to see them go away. I don't see it happening anytime soon, as they just took a roster with mostly average talent to the Super Bowl. Although the other teams are getting better, they play in a fairly weak division so they will be in the playoffs just about every year for the near future.

That said, I am glad they were there again, but this team probably shouldn't have been there with that roster. Is their dominance that they displayed 6-7 years ago over? Yes- other teams have caught up for sure. Just find it funny that people are pointing to the fact that they haven't won a title in so many years as the Patriots being on the decline. Meanwhile, they haven't have a losing record in over a decade, been to the playoffs over 80% of the time during that span. People wish they could say that about their team.

The Pat's drafts are frustrating, but they aren't and bad as others make them out to be. They have gotten talent - obviously the 2 TEs, Chung, Mayo, Spikes, McCourty is a decent CB2, a couple starting OL, etc, etc.. They just never seem to land what me and everybody seem to think they need:

1. a CB1

2. downfield threat WR

3. OLB

To me what it feels like happened is that Belichick got too stuck in his way of getting 'his guys'. They won SBs with lunchpail guys on the LB corps and on offense and now it seems like that is all they draft and get in FA - at all positions. As a fan I would love to see them trade UP for once and get one or two guys that have out of this world talent as well, or cough up those draft picks for a FA entering his prime. While it is cool they have guys that can do multiple positions, I would love to not see Edelman on the field covering a WR because they managed to get that position taken care of for once.

 

[sho nuff]

Anybody saying that it is over for the Patriots is probably somebody who hates them and want to see them go away. I don't see it happening anytime soon, as they just took a roster with mostly average talent to the Super Bowl. Although the other teams are getting better, they play in a fairly weak division so they will be in the playoffs just about every year for the near future.

LOL @ mostly average talent.Their Oline, TEs, Welker, and Brady are more than just average talent.

Add in a few of their defensive pieces (though, that is obviously where they are weaker)...and its not a mostly average team anymore than other teams are.

I don't think its over...but the window is getting shorter and shorter unless they strike gold with another QB.

Brady is the glue holding that together, not BB.

 

[Dought Man]

When Danny Woodhead is a factor in your offensive plans...it's a recipe for losing. Not sure when BB will end this charade of trying to stick it to the Jets by using Woodhead.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Anybody saying that it is over for the Patriots is probably somebody who hates them and want to see them go away. I don't see it happening anytime soon, as they just took a roster with mostly average talent to the Super Bowl. Although the other teams are getting better, they play in a fairly weak division so they will be in the playoffs just about every year for the near future.

LOL @ mostly average talent.Their Oline, TEs, Welker, and Brady are more than just average talent.

Add in a few of their defensive pieces (though, that is obviously where they are weaker)...and its not a mostly average team anymore than other teams are.

I don't think its over...but the window is getting shorter and shorter unless they strike gold with another QB.

Brady is the glue holding that together, not BB.

Honest question that I was talking discussing with a friend the other day then.

Where would you rank the Patriots, based solely on quality of the roster? Lets say you and 31 buddies had a draft to take over a team and head into the offseason with, where would the Patriots go (again, you don't get BB)?

Also you say Brady is the glue - was the 11-5 season with Cassel a fluke in your opinion then?

 

[David Yudkin]

Also you say Brady is the glue - was the 11-5 season with Cassel a fluke in your opinion then?

The 2008 Pats schedule was one of the most cupcake schedules in recent memory. With Brady, they could easily have won 14 or 15 games.

 

[sho nuff]

Anybody saying that it is over for the Patriots is probably somebody who hates them and want to see them go away. I don't see it happening anytime soon, as they just took a roster with mostly average talent to the Super Bowl. Although the other teams are getting better, they play in a fairly weak division so they will be in the playoffs just about every year for the near future.

LOL @ mostly average talent.Their Oline, TEs, Welker, and Brady are more than just average talent.

Add in a few of their defensive pieces (though, that is obviously where they are weaker)...and its not a mostly average team anymore than other teams are.

I don't think its over...but the window is getting shorter and shorter unless they strike gold with another QB.

Brady is the glue holding that together, not BB.

Honest question that I was talking discussing with a friend the other day then.

Where would you rank the Patriots, based solely on quality of the roster? Lets say you and 31 buddies had a draft to take over a team and head into the offseason with, where would the Patriots go (again, you don't get BB)?

Also you say Brady is the glue - was the 11-5 season with Cassel a fluke in your opinion then?

Do you think they would be just fine without him and going with an inexperienced QB next year?On this team of supposed "average" talent.

The Patriots would go in the top 5 in your question though based on their current roster.

Based on their starting QB.

You would have teams like NO, GB, NY above them. After that...they would go pretty quickly.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Anybody saying that it is over for the Patriots is probably somebody who hates them and want to see them go away. I don't see it happening anytime soon, as they just took a roster with mostly average talent to the Super Bowl. Although the other teams are getting better, they play in a fairly weak division so they will be in the playoffs just about every year for the near future.

LOL @ mostly average talent.Their Oline, TEs, Welker, and Brady are more than just average talent.

Add in a few of their defensive pieces (though, that is obviously where they are weaker)...and its not a mostly average team anymore than other teams are.

I don't think its over...but the window is getting shorter and shorter unless they strike gold with another QB.

Brady is the glue holding that together, not BB.

Honest question that I was talking discussing with a friend the other day then.

Where would you rank the Patriots, based solely on quality of the roster? Lets say you and 31 buddies had a draft to take over a team and head into the offseason with, where would the Patriots go (again, you don't get BB)?

Also you say Brady is the glue - was the 11-5 season with Cassel a fluke in your opinion then?

Do you think they would be just fine without him and going with an inexperienced QB next year?On this team of supposed "average" talent.

The Patriots would go in the top 5 in your question though based on their current roster.

Based on their starting QB.

You would have teams like NO, GB, NY above them. After that...they would go pretty quickly.

I guess my point is I disagree, but you are basing this all on Brady bringing up the rest of the team. I think if people had to take over a team they would be giving Pitt, Balt, Det, SF, Houst, Atlanta, Philly, etc.. all a really hard look since they have talent all over and have a more complete team.

 

[roadkill1292]

Anybody saying that it is over for the Patriots is probably somebody who hates them and want to see them go away. I don't see it happening anytime soon, as they just took a roster with mostly average talent to the Super Bowl. Although the other teams are getting better, they play in a fairly weak division so they will be in the playoffs just about every year for the near future.

LOL @ mostly average talent.Their Oline, TEs, Welker, and Brady are more than just average talent.

Add in a few of their defensive pieces (though, that is obviously where they are weaker)...and its not a mostly average team anymore than other teams are.

I don't think its over...but the window is getting shorter and shorter unless they strike gold with another QB.

Brady is the glue holding that together, not BB.

Honest question that I was talking discussing with a friend the other day then.

Where would you rank the Patriots, based solely on quality of the roster? Lets say you and 31 buddies had a draft to take over a team and head into the offseason with, where would the Patriots go (again, you don't get BB)?

Also you say Brady is the glue - was the 11-5 season with Cassel a fluke in your opinion then?

This would be an interesting exercise with 8 Shark Poolers.

 

[parrot]

Good post. I think it goes a step further. Similar to my other post - IMO, BB tries to make himself look like a genius by playing Edelman in spots where he can get away with it. If Edelman is the best next option at DB, why is he not the next best option in the SB vs the Giants? Because he would look like an idiot if he played him against the Giants - so then he never was the next best option, BB just wanted to look like a genius.

Yeah, that's clearly what it was. It couldn't have anything to do with them having completely different defensive game plans and focuses - Ray Rice vs. Eli and the Giants WR corp - in the two games.

So you are claiming Edelman is the run stopper? RIIIGHHHTTTT

Uh, I never said anything about Edelman being a run stopper. They played more man against the Ravens to try and free up the linebackers for run support. They played more zone against the Giants. Arrington spent most of the game lined up over Cruz in the slot, whereas, against the Ravens, he played on the outside, putting Edelman in the slot when he was on the field. Different skillsets, different focuses, different personnel. Anyone who thinks Bill Belichick is more concerned with making himself "look like a genius" than with winning the AFCCG and getting his team to the SuperBowl, doesn't know much about Bill Belichick.

 

[finfansteve]

No running game, bargain bin wide receivers, a qb who makes awful decisions in the fourth quarter and has a habit of throwing scratch yer head deep interceptions at the most inopportune times, a swiss cheese defense...yeah, I'd say their time is past.

Too bad.

If they can find a big, fast STUD receiver in the draft (like, say, Nicks), that offense would be STUPID!

moss?

Agreed. It makes no sense why they didn't bring him back this year when he wanted to come back. Horrible decision in my opinion

Because he is done...done done done.There is a reason he was sitting at home.

Deion Branch is supposedly better than Randy Moss these days? I really doubt it....

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

I think the AFC is swinging downwars in terms of quality of all teams.

The NFC has 3 teams better than NE right now, IMO GB, NO and NYG. Im not sure about SF, would like to see how they do in season 2.

With the implosion of Indy, and the pitt/balt defenses getting older who is even there to challenge the Pats? A helathy houston team? SD? NYJ?

I think next year NE could easily make the Superbowl again and then lose to a GB or NO.

things change fast in the NFL too though and a new power team could emgerge in the AFC

 

[sho nuff]

I guess my point is I disagree, but you are basing this all on Brady bringing up the rest of the team. I think if people had to take over a team they would be giving Pitt, Balt, Det, SF, Houst, Atlanta, Philly, etc.. all a really hard look since they have talent all over and have a more complete team.

Im basing it on Brady being a huge part of it yes.Just as Rodgers, Brees, and so on are huge parts of why people would pick those teams.I don't think many would take Pitt over NE right now...or Baltimore (at their age).SF, Houston, and Detroit certainly have their strengths and are up and coming and in the conversation and I would not fault anyone for going with them over NE in this question.Atlanta and Philly are easily still behind NE.

 

[sho nuff]

No running game, bargain bin wide receivers, a qb who makes awful decisions in the fourth quarter and has a habit of throwing scratch yer head deep interceptions at the most inopportune times, a swiss cheese defense...yeah, I'd say their time is past.

Too bad.

If they can find a big, fast STUD receiver in the draft (like, say, Nicks), that offense would be STUPID!

moss?

Agreed. It makes no sense why they didn't bring him back this year when he wanted to come back. Horrible decision in my opinion

Because he is done...done done done.There is a reason he was sitting at home.

Deion Branch is supposedly better than Randy Moss these days? I really doubt it....

Never claimed that.But Deion Branch is more the team player in that offense than Moss had been.

Moss is no longer that great deep threat...nor worth the headaches his lack of effort brings.

 

[Boston]

No running game, bargain bin wide receivers, a qb who makes awful decisions in the fourth quarter and has a habit of throwing scratch yer head deep interceptions at the most inopportune times, a swiss cheese defense...yeah, I'd say their time is past.

Too bad.

If they can find a big, fast STUD receiver in the draft (like, say, Nicks), that offense would be STUPID!

moss?

Agreed. It makes no sense why they didn't bring him back this year when he wanted to come back. Horrible decision in my opinion

Because he is done...done done done.There is a reason he was sitting at home.

Deion Branch is supposedly better than Randy Moss these days? I really doubt it....

How would you know...Moss didn't play in 2011...

 

[BRONG]

It's not over. They must regroup and figure out more innovative ways to cheat.

 

[AB in DC]

My biggest head-scratcher is why people hail the genius of stockpiling draft picks when the championship window is open NOW and the players being drafted with these stockpiled picks of past seasons are rarely contributing on the field. One additional defensive playmaker instead of a few high draft picks just might have secured another SB championship for the Patriots. I don't understand it.

That having been said, trading Richard Seymour in 2009 netted them Nate Solder in the 2011 draft, and the Pats wouldn't have gotten nearly as far as they did without him (especially lined up against Terrell Suggs two weeks ago). So sometimes it works out fine.

 

[cstu]

Also you say Brady is the glue - was the 11-5 season with Cassel a fluke in your opinion then?

The 2008 Pats schedule was one of the most cupcake schedules in recent memory. With Brady, they could easily have won 14 or 15 games.

Looks like it was a middle of the road schedule. I know based on 2007 records it was supposed to be the easiest but it wasn't.